PDA

View Full Version : Very bad Moon hoax site



AstroMike
2002-Jan-19, 12:52 AM
I was surfing around when I came across this very arrogant but irritating web site.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonapo.htm#NASA%20Masonic%20Conpsiracy

Does anybody have any comments on this site?

Donnie B.
2002-Jan-19, 01:44 AM
What can you say? I didn't see much there that hasn't popped up on the other HB sites. Two exceptions:

The Freemasonry Connection: obviously this is the guy's big revelation. Even if what he claims is true, which I doubt, my reaction is a great big "So what?"

The "Water Won't Work For Cooling" argument: this guy doesn't have a clue when it comes to thermodynamics. He seems to have no concept of radiative cooling at all, and he doesn't recognize that the backpacks didn't rely on sublimation of ice, but released hot water. He also seems to think that anything exposed to the sun will immediately heat up to 200 degrees, regardless of its composition or reflectivity.

IMHO, this one earns an "over the top" on the crackpot scale.

AstroMike
2002-Jan-19, 01:48 AM
OK, maybe you're right. It seems to be an anti-science website with religious beliefs against Apollo and space technology.

But I found this website at Apollohoax.com

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AstroMike on 2002-01-18 21:24 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AstroMike on 2002-01-18 21:48 ]</font>

johnwitts
2002-Jan-19, 11:57 PM
From the Mason page linked to above...

NASA claims the spacesuits were cooled by a water system which was piped around the body, then through a system of coils sheltered from the sun in the backpack. NASA claims that water was sprayed on the coils causing a coating of ice to form. The ice then supposedly absorbed the tremendous heat collected in the water and evaporated into space. There are two problems with this that cannot be explained away. 1) The amount of water needed to be carried by the astronauts in order to make this work for even a very small length of time in the direct 55 degrees over the boiling point of water (210 degrees F at sea level on Earth) heat of the sun could not have possibly been carried by the astronauts. 2) NASA has since claimed that they found ice in moon craters. NASA claims that ice sheltered from the direct rays of the sun will NOT evaporate destroying their own bogus "air conditioning" explanation.

Ok. The backpacks did not eject hot water, as stated in an above post, but worked exactly like ant air conditioner or fridge. In any refridgeration unit, gas is compressed into a liquid, thus raising it's temperature. This is the hot bit on the back of your fridge, or the bit with the fans on the roof if an air conditioner. Then this fluid under pressure is released through a small, carefully calibrated nozzle, and because of the pressure drop, turns into a gas. To turn a liquid into a gas requires heat, and this heat is obtained from the pipework the gas is in, and in turn the food in your fridge or the air from your house. This cools the fridge or your house. The gas is then compressed by the pump into a liquid and restarts the cycle. Freon is (was?) used as the working fluid in fridges because the temperature it turns from liquid to gas is quite low, lower than freezing, but not too low as to make it difficult to compress into gas.
The same principle applies to spacecratft and suit cooling, except that it is a 'total loss' system, and a bit back to front. Water is circulated in the suit. This is the hot part of the fridge, usually on the back. There is no need for a compressor as the water can be considered compressed compared to the pressure of the vaccuum outside the suit. A portion of this water passes through a porous plate sublimator, which is analogous to the nozzle in the fridge design. As water seeps out it comes into contact with the vaccuum (if that's the right phrase as you can't touch a vaccuum) and immediately turns to gas because of the pressure drop. This cools the plate to freezing and ice forms, this ice prevents any more water seeping out. So we've got a situation where we have water passing through an ice cold block of metal. More than enough to keep the astronaut cool. What happens when the ice melts due to the warm water passing through the plate? More water seeps out, turns into gas cools the plate and forms more ice. This process can continue until the reservoir of water in the backpack is used up, 8 hours on Apollo 17. To see the same effect of liquids turning into gas when pressure is released, take a spay deodorant can and hold it open for about a minute. Even though there is only a little liquid in these cans, and this liquid has a far lower enthalpy of evaporation than water, the can gets really cold. I've had trouble with gas bottles when camping in the cold freezing and refusing to work because there is not enough background heat to keep the bottle warm. Imagine the same principle, only the gas bottle is full of water on the Moon and is wrapped round an astronaut.

Another part of the argument is that the spacecraft did not carry enough cooling water. This is true. They made the water as they went, as a by-product of the fuel cells which produced electricity. Nothing was wasted. Fred Haise even used the crews urine to top up the cooling water on Apollo 13!

johnwitts
2002-Jan-20, 12:00 AM
NASA claims that the space suits worn by the astronauts were pressurized at 5 psi over the ambient pressure (0 psi vacuum) on the moon's surface. We have examined the gloves NASA claims the astronauts wore and find they are made of pliable material containing no mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical devices which would aid the astronauts in the dexterous use of their fingers and hands while wearing the gloves. Experiments prove absolutely that such gloves are impossible to use and that the wearer cannot bend the wrist or fingers to do any dexterous work whatsoever when filled with 5 psi over ambient pressure either in a vacuum or in the earth's atmosphere. NASA actually showed film and television footage of astronauts using their hands and fingers normally during their EVAs on the so-called lunar surface. The films show clearly that there is no pressure whatsoever within the gloves . . . a condition that would have caused explosive decompression of the astronauts resulting in almost immediate death if they had really been surrounded by the vacuum of space.

5 psi in gloves is not very much. It makes things a little more difficult, but not much. Try it at home.

Kaptain K
2002-Jan-20, 12:09 AM
Astromike:
I tried your second link (http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html) twice. Both times, I got:
"The page cannot be displayed."

AstroMike
2002-Jan-20, 01:17 AM
John, I provided the two links for a laugh. The first link is more of a religious hostilty toward Apollo; not good. But I found the second link to be hilarious. Man, that guy sure is a scientific ignoramus. He's willing to believe anything you put in front of his face.

johnwitts
2002-Jan-20, 01:22 AM
Totally agreed. He seems to have just rewritten the Aulis video. He also claims to have checked here. Is this true?

The Bad Astronomer
2002-Jan-20, 02:30 AM
I deleted the post that had the entire webpage in it.

DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ENTIRE PAGES THAT ARE COPYRIGHTED ON THIS BOARD.


See the FAQ, rule #5.

JayUtah
2002-Jan-20, 01:45 PM
A portion of this water passes through a porous plate sublimator, which is analogous to the nozzle in the fridge design.

Yes. The Russians have been using porous plate sublimators for years, as have the Italians and the Germans who have all built components of the international space station. The PPS is one of the most well-understood and highly refined designs in all of space science. You can practically buy them off the shelf now. One wonders how someone can become so wrapped up in the conspiracy theory as to deny the function of common machinery.

What happens when the ice melts due to the warm water passing through the plate?

Bit of a nit-pick. The water doesn't melt off the sublimators. It sublimates, hence its name.

You get heat rejection via the phase change and via the separation of a heated mass. The human body can maintain its temperature on earth through phase-change rejection of only four or five pounds of water over several hours.

take a spay deodorant can and hold it open for about a minute. Even though there is only a little liquid in these cans, and this liquid has a far lower enthalpy of evaporation than water, the can gets really cold.

Those of you who don't have that much deodorant to waste (or who use stick deodorant) can get the same effect with the "canned air" sold at computer stores to blow dust off equipment. This uses a liquefied refrigerant not unlike those in refrigerators. Spray it for a few seconds and the can becomes too cold to hold.

And not to be crass, but you men out there can speculate on why you frequenly shiver when you urinate. (I'm not trying to be sexist; I just have no experiential basis for determining whether women experience this sensation too.) Losing a liquid heat sink of even just a few ounces can have a profound thermodynamic effect. And yes, most engineers think about thermodynamics while they're urinating.

Another part of the argument is that the spacecraft did not carry enough cooling water. This is true. They made the water as they went, as a by-product of the fuel cells which produced electricity.

It is worth mentioning, however, that the lunar module used batteries, not fuel cells. So while they had all the way to the moon in which to top off the LM's cooling water tanks, by the time they separated from the CSM for landing they were carrying all the water they would use on the lunar surface. They had no facility for making more.

JayUtah
2002-Jan-20, 01:55 PM
NASA claims that the space suits worn by the astronauts were pressurized at 5 psi over the ambient pressure (0 psi vacuum)

Well, 3.5 to 5 pounds.

We have examined the gloves NASA claims the astronauts wore and find they are made of pliable material containing no mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical devices which would aid the astronauts in the dexterous use of their fingers and hands while wearing the gloves.

One wonders if they were looking at the gloves or at the glove protectors.

Experiments prove absolutely that such gloves are impossible to use.

What experiments? We are baffled at how the experimenters were able to pressurize the glove, with a hand in it, without the rest of the suit. As an engineering student at Kansas State University I was on a team which designed the glove protectors for the shuttle EMU specifically tailored to facilitate operating the MMU. It's really quite a trick to pressurize the glove for testing.

NASA actually showed film and television footage of astronauts using their hands and fingers normally during their EVAs on the so-called lunar surface.

The astronauts sure complained about how hard it was to use their hands in the gloves. "Normally" is an unwarranted.

The films show clearly that there is no pressure whatsoever within the gloves

What you see on the EVA video are the glove protectors. The pressure gloves themselves are black and attach to the wrist by a ring lock which is pressure tight. Then over the top of those you put the glove protector, which is not pressurized, but which has the thermal insulation and the silicone rubber fingertips (same material as the boot protectors) to keep from puncturing the glove itself.

Clearly these "researchers" have no idea how the Apollo EMU was constructed or used.

johnwitts
2002-Jan-20, 09:37 PM
The Bad Astronomer wrote...

I deleted the post that had the entire webpage in it.

DO NOT CUT AND PASTE ENTIRE PAGES THAT ARE COPYRIGHTED ON THIS BOARD.

...Sorry, that's the second time I've got into trouble here. In my (feeble) defence, I will claim that I only posted it because others were having trouble with the link. As I regularly save pages I've visited, in case they go astray, I'd already got it on my machine. I apologise again for my misdemeaner.

johnwitts
2002-Jan-20, 10:06 PM
If you search for 'sublimator' you get some sites with wierd devices for wierd chemical reactions. Liquids or gasses are forced through some apparatus to undergo strange chemical changes. One of the salient points here is that some serious heating devices are used, to stop the things freezing. Now if this were body heat from say an astronaut...

ToSeek
2002-Jan-21, 01:40 PM
Not Bad Astronomy, but you left out this one:



C. Fred Kleinknect, head of NASA at the time of the Apollo Space Program...


News to me!

Jim
2002-Jan-21, 05:19 PM
C. Fred Kleinknect, head of NASA at the time of the Apollo Space Program...

No Fred Kleinknect associated with NASA, except for the (same) reference on multiple hoax sites.

There is a Kenneth Kleinknecht (note the spelling) who served as Spacecraft Manager on the Mercury Program and Deputy Spacecraft Manager on Gemini and Apollo.

Kleinknecht joined the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics in 1942, later moved to NASA when it replaced the NACA. I have no information on his association with Freemasonry.

Valiant Dancer
2002-Jan-21, 07:43 PM
On 2002-01-18 20:44, Donnie B. wrote:
What can you say? I didn't see much there that hasn't popped up on the other HB sites. Two exceptions:

The Freemasonry Connection: obviously this is the guy's big revelation. Even if what he claims is true, which I doubt, my reaction is a great big "So what?"

The "Water Won't Work For Cooling" argument: this guy doesn't have a clue when it comes to thermodynamics. He seems to have no concept of radiative cooling at all, and he doesn't recognize that the backpacks didn't rely on sublimation of ice, but released hot water. He also seems to think that anything exposed to the sun will immediately heat up to 200 degrees, regardless of its composition or reflectivity.

IMHO, this one earns an "over the top" on the crackpot scale.



Not really. I saw the Freemasonry issue pop up on Art Bell's board about two months ago. (He had gone on to say that Washington D.C. was built to center all the "power" in the city to the White House.)

Two words for the site, "whack job"

Matherly
2002-Jan-22, 12:59 PM
On 2002-01-18 20:44, Donnie B. wrote:
The Freemasonry Connection: obviously this is the guy's big revelation. Even if what he claims is true, which I doubt, my reaction is a great big "So what?"


Dude, the Freemasonry Connection is huge. If it can be traced back to the Freemasons, than the Bavarian Illuminati is surely behind it. BUT, since we were allowed to know the Illuminati is behind it through the Freemasons then something else is up...

Hmmm... why wouldn't the Illuminati try to hide their connection to Apollo. Well Apollo was a Greek god and he there when Eris/Hecate used the Apple of Discord to, in effect, start the Trojan War... OF COURSE! It's not the Illuminati behind this at all! It's the Discordians!! Why didn't I see this earlier!

&lt;Carl scurries off mubling strange things about John John Dillanger and 'The Elvis Connection'>

ToSeek
2002-Jan-22, 03:58 PM
(He had gone on to say that Washington D.C. was built to center all the "power" in the city to the White House.)

Oh, yeah, if you look at the street layout there's an obvious pentagram centered on the White House. (I am not making this up!) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Kaptain K
2002-Jan-22, 04:14 PM
And of course, it is just a coincidence that the armed forces headquarters if a pentagram - sorry, pentaGON. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

The Curtmudgeon
2002-Jan-22, 10:03 PM
It's worse, so very much worse, than the Freemasonry issue. If you pop up to this nutcase's top level page, http://www.biblebelievers.org.au (and being a true Bible believer, that site name really frosts me, given what he's posting on it), and then check some of the other links, you'll see that this guy promotes the anti-Semitic forgery 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' as truth! Not only that, but as the controlling power behind US foreign policy, etc.

This is a hate site, pure and simple. I recommend that we don't give him any further support by discussing whatever drivel he posts, whether it's Moon-hoax related or not.

The ( /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif ) Curtmudgeon

Hauteden
2002-Jan-24, 03:08 AM
On 2002-01-22 17:03, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
It's worse, so very much worse, than the Freemasonry issue. If you pop up to this nutcase's top level page, http://www.biblebelievers.org.au (The ( /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif ) Curtmudgeon


Oh Great! now my brain hurts. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Hauteden

J-Man
2002-Jan-25, 07:17 PM
Jay Utah said:
"And yes, most engineers think about thermodynamics while they're urinating."

Well I didn't before, but NOW I will...
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
As if I didn't think about enough wierd stuff already /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Thumper
2002-Feb-01, 12:24 PM
On 2002-01-19 19:00, johnwitts wrote:
NASA claims that the space suits worn by the astronauts were pressurized at 5 psi over the ambient pressure (0 psi vacuum) on the moon's surface. We have examined the gloves NASA claims the astronauts wore and find they are made of pliable material containing no mechanical, hydraulic, or electrical devices which would aid the astronauts in the dexterous use of their fingers and hands while wearing the gloves. Experiments prove absolutely that such gloves are impossible to use and that the wearer cannot bend the wrist or fingers to do any dexterous work whatsoever when filled with 5 psi over ambient pressure either in a vacuum or in the earth's atmosphere. NASA actually showed film and television footage of astronauts using their hands and fingers normally during their EVAs on the so-called lunar surface. The films show clearly that there is no pressure whatsoever within the gloves . . . a condition that would have caused explosive decompression of the astronauts resulting in almost immediate death if they had really been surrounded by the vacuum of space.

5 psi in gloves is not very much. It makes things a little more difficult, but not much. Try it at home.

Most of the astronauts who worked on the surface of the Moon complained or at least commented on the difficulty of using their hands, grasping and holding on to objects, etc. due to the pressurized gloves. You can read it in actual mission transcripts, post mission briefings and reports, as well as any number of books written about or by the Astronauts themselves. Several came back with black and blue fingernails from the constant fight against the pressure in the glove.

And JayUtah points out that what we see is the outer protective covering. The same can basically be said of the entire suit. What we see is the outer layer of protective covering. The "pressure vessel" is one of the inner layers of a very multi-layered piece of equipment.

Trying to look at a bigger picture: The gloves would have been hard to use therefore NASA faked the entire program? Sometimes I wonder why you very intelligent, probably very busy people even waste your time responding to such crap. Of course now I'm sucked in too. But I have this irrational fear that maybe the HB's just make crap up just to see us get irate and refute their ridiculous claims.

"Hey Bob, I just posted some drivel about useless gloves. Let's see what they have to say about that, ha ha ha, wink wink."

I don't know.