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Glom
2006-Jul-24, 10:56 PM
So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham. The growth of manufacturing = bad.

Then when Maggie closes all the manufacturing in Birmingham, everyone gets in an uproar.

Make up your minds!

Do you want manufacturing in Birmingham or not?

HenrikOlsen
2006-Jul-24, 10:59 PM
Nobody wants industrialisation, everyone wants jobs.

Nobodyss ever completely pleased.

Moose
2006-Jul-24, 11:39 PM
1) False dichtonomy, Glom.

Sustainable industrialization (responsible logging, reasonable fishing, deep mining, nuclear energy development, etc) is good. Exploitive industrialization (unregulated strip mining, clear-cutting of rare-type forests, massive unregulated coal-burning, toxic waste dumping into streambeds, etc) is bad.

2) You're equating the alleged viewpoint of one J.R.R. Tolkien to some monolithic, imagined, and personally-interpreted viewpoint of an entire community.

Time to grind your axes again, Glom?

Fortis
2006-Jul-24, 11:44 PM
So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham.
IIRC, Mordor was based on his visits to Leeds. ;)

ToSeek
2006-Jul-25, 12:49 AM
Tolkien didn't even like cars.

Ronald Brak
2006-Jul-25, 03:51 AM
I think the confusion can be explained best as follows:

Tolkien: Academic. Writes about wonderful fantasy past ages. Does not gain work from mills. Wants them closed.

Mill Workers: Gain work from mills. Do not want them closed.

AGN Fuel
2006-Jul-25, 07:33 AM
IIRC, Mordor was based on his visits to Leeds. ;)

You may be right. Having experienced a crowd of Leeds FC supporters, I can see where he got his inspiration for orcs.

farmerjumperdon
2006-Jul-25, 12:05 PM
Tolkien didn't even like cars.

Must have had a bad experience with a Pinto or Vega.

tofu
2006-Jul-25, 12:06 PM
So an interpretation of the Scouring of the Shire is Tolkein's unhappiness over the industrialisation of Birmingham.

Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.

j/k, I just find it amusing to apply Freudian logic to everything.

Swift
2006-Jul-25, 01:20 PM
Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.

j/k, I just find it amusing to apply Freudian logic to everything.
And hobbits are very fond of cigars. :think:

ToSeek
2006-Jul-25, 02:19 PM
I went to a panel once that went through a whole host of interpretations of Lord of the Rings, from Freudian to Marxist (which actually came down against the purported heroes, standing up for the oppressed and maligned working-class orcs against the effete, aristocratic elves). I'll have to figure out what I did with my notes....

Donnie B.
2006-Jul-25, 05:55 PM
And hobbits are very fond of cigars. :think:Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe. Even in English.

Andúril
2006-Jul-25, 06:47 PM
Tolkien didn't even like cars.
Edward Elgar, a famous british composer (Pomp and Circumstance Marches) also disliked "modern" (1900) technology.

Matherly
2006-Jul-25, 06:55 PM
Are you sure that the shire doesn't represent Tolkien's mother? And mordor is his father, who he wants to kill (of course) for claiming ownership of "the ring" which obviously represents his mother's virginity.

(I know this was a joke, but I'm going to respond anyways...)

Unlikely, since Tolkien's father died when he was 3 and his mother died when he was 12.

It does go a long way to explaining why so many protagonists in Middle-Earth have lost one or both parents. Frodo's parents died in a boating accident. Aragorn's father was killed by orcs. Eomer & Eowen's father (and I believe mother) was dead. Arwen's mother had "gone into the West" which is a death parallel. Etc, etc.

Gillianren
2006-Jul-26, 01:51 AM
Actually, to go West has been British slang for "to die" since well before LOTR was published. It's mentioned in Strong Poison, by Dorothy L. Sayers.

LurchGS
2006-Jul-26, 02:11 AM
Just so y'all know, I'm not pleased with the direction this thread is going...


:)

Kelfazin
2006-Jul-27, 07:55 PM
Going into the West was actually first given as an anology of death by the ancient Egytians 3000 years ago. The sun set in the West and was reborn in the East, and that's why most burial sites are on the West bank of the Nile.

Matherly
2006-Jul-27, 09:20 PM
Oh, I wasn't suggesting Tolkien invented it. I just didn't want people to think Arwen's mother had just popped off for a quick vacation at the beach. I was saying that it would have been stressful fo Arwen and her brothers just as if their mother had died.

(Editd becasue Crl cant tyep tday)

Gillianren
2006-Jul-27, 10:35 PM
You may not be suggesting he invented it, but I've encountered LOTR fans who have.

ToSeek
2006-Jul-28, 02:11 PM
You'd think LOTR fans would be a bit more up on their mythology.

Matherly
2006-Jul-28, 02:31 PM
You'd think LOTR fans would be a bit more up on their mythology.

No kidding. Especially when the Professor loved to point out his sources (for example the names of the dwarves in Thorin's company as well as Gandalf himself all come from an Icelandic saga- something Tolkien never tried to hide. Also, he was very forthright about the very strong Judeo-Christan influences in his writing).

HenrikOlsen
2006-Jul-28, 03:34 PM
No kidding. Especially when the Professor loved to point out his sources (for example the names of the dwarves in Thorin's company as well as Gandalf himself all come from an Icelandic saga- something Tolkien never tried to hide. Also, he was very forthright about the very strong Judeo-Christan influences in his writing).
Actually most dwarven names, not just the ones in The Hobbit are from Völuspá (http://asatru.org/voluspa.html).

The high Gods gathered in council.
In their hall of judgement: Who of the dwarves
Should mould man by master craft
From Brimir's blood and Blain' s limbs?

Motsognir was their mighty ruler,
Greatest of dwarves, and Durin after him :
The dwarves did as Durin directed,
Many man forms made from the earth.

Nyi and Nidi, Nordri, Sudri, Austri and Vestri, Althjof, Dvalin, Bivor,
Bavor, Bombur, Nori, An and Anar, Ai, Mjodvitnir, Veignr and Gandalf,
Vindalf, Thorin, Thror and Thrain, Thekkur, Litur, Vitur, Nar and Nyradur,
Fili, Kili, Fundin, Nali Hefti, Vili, Hanar, Sviur, Billing, Bruni, Bildur,
and Buri, Frar, Hornbori Fraegur, Loni, Aurvangur, Jari, Eikinskjaldi:
(All Durin's folk I have duly named,)

I must tell of the dwarves in Dvalin' s host;
Like lions they were in Lofar's time:
In Juravale's marsh they made their dwelling,
From their Stone hall set out on journeys,

There was Draupnir and Dolgthrasir, Har, Haugspori, Hlevangur, Gloi, Dori,
Ori, Dufur, Andvari, Skirvir, Virvir Skafidur, Ai, Alf and Yngvi,
Eikinskjaldi, Fjalar and Frosti, Finn and Ginnar: Men will remember while
men live
The long line of Lofar's forbears.

Matherly
2006-Jul-28, 04:22 PM
Actually most dwarven names, not just the ones in The Hobbit are from Völuspá (http://asatru.org/voluspa.html).

<Matherly bows to HenrikOlsen's superior knowledge>

Thanks for finding that. I knew the Professor got it some somewhere.

Gillianren
2006-Jul-28, 06:31 PM
Yes. You would think that. However, I think these are new LOTR fans, as in since-the-movie fans, who now they've discovered it think it's the ultimate fiction of life, the universe, and everything, that there was nothing before it and nothing worthwhile after it that doesn't borrow on it in some way. Which is ridiculous, really--everyone knows that's Shakespeare.

Matherly
2006-Jul-28, 06:50 PM
However, I think these are new LOTR fans, as in since-the-movie fans, who now they've discovered it think it's the ultimate fiction of life, the universe, and everything, that there was nothing before it and nothing worthwhile after it that doesn't borrow on it in some way.

Well, it is. Or rather, it will be once I get around to sending back in time so that it becomes the predominate mythology in human culture :dance:

Anyways, everyone knows Tolkien just translated the Red Book of Westmarch (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp) and claimed it as his own! ;)