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Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-06, 05:16 AM
Do you have any reliable information about the midnight Sun especially that you know via your personal experience and observations?
Please supply it here concisely without showing any reference or URL!

01101001
2006-Sep-06, 05:55 AM
Please supply it here concisely without showing any reference or URL!
Why?

If you're asking a question, if you're truly seeking knowledge, you should be grateful to get a reference to good information.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-06, 06:07 AM
Why?

If you're asking a question, if you're truly seeking knowledge, you should be grateful to get a reference to good information.


So as to be able to ask and discuss such an information-introducing person without giving him any opportunity to dodge or claim misunderstanding others' writings.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-06, 06:32 AM
Do you have any reliable information about the midnight Sun especially that you know via your personal experience and observations?
Please supply it here concisely without showing any reference or URL!Well, I'm sure there might be a few BAUTers out there who reside in either the United States, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia, and maybe even a few from Antarctica, who could provide you with such information.

What's your point?

01101001
2006-Sep-06, 06:34 AM
So as to be able to ask and discuss such an information-introducing person without giving him any opportunity to dodge or claim misunderstanding others' writings.
What? I don't follow.

Do you want to get information or perform an inquisition?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-06, 06:57 AM
Well, I'm sure there might be a few BAUTers out there who reside in either the United States, Canada, Greenland, Iceland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia, and maybe even a few from Antarctica, who could provide you with such information.

What's your point?
Hello Maksutov,
(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun?
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it?
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?

Jens
2006-Sep-06, 07:11 AM
There are some questions that can be answered. Just FYI, I've only seen it once in my life, when I was visiting Norway, but others who live far north would be able to answer more completely. But generally:

1. It appears just like the sun always appears, except that it doesn't set. It dips down near the horizon, but rises again before getting below the horizon. Actually, you can get the same effect if you are on an airplane flying fairly far north, I think.

2. No, because it's daylight.

3. No, because it's daylight. There's nothing special about the midnight sun, except that the sun doesn't dip below the horizon before rising again. Hence, you don't have a "night" that day in the regular sense.

4. It depends where you are. You can do the experiment yourself with a globe and a light, but if you at the North Pole or South Pole, the sun only rises once a year. So it's daylight for 6 months, and then night for 6 months.

5. It's an interesting question. I wonder whether it disrupts their sleep in any way.

6. I'm pretty sure you only see Auroras at night, so you wouldn't see them on a day when the sun doesn't set. But otherwise, they are totally unrelated phenomenon, AFAIK. The midnight sun is due to the earth's tilt (the same reason we have summer and winter). The aurora is due to solar activity.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-06, 07:14 AM
Hello Maksutov,
(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?The same as the Sun does anywhere when it is the same number of degrees above the horizon. In this case, usually with some artifacts that are related to cold temperatures.

(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun?No, because it's daytime. You might see Venus if you know where to look, but that's true anywhere.

(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it?No, it's daytime.

(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?There is no night. It's daytime all the time. For established nations, the longest period is about 76 days.

(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?There's no night, but those that hibernate are already doing so, the others have adjusted to the changes in the amount of light.

(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?You won't see them. The daytime sky is too bright.

Here's an article that might help you with this phenomenon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun)

neilzero
2006-Sep-06, 12:18 PM
Hi atti: Most of the time, I am also dissapointed when I get a link = URL instead of an opinion. Opinions are much easier to rebut (and ask for more details) and I am suspicious that the united laws of the mainstream scientists are at least slightly flawed, if not a mess. Often the link is time consuming, but not very helpful.
The closest I came to experiencing the midnight sun was from Fort St, James, BC, Canada, in June, about midnight. I noted that the sky was slightly twilight due North. At that time there were no villages a few miles North of Fort St. James, so I comcluded (perhaps wrongly) that I was seeing genuine twilight.
The point is, if you are just outside the Arctic Circle about June 21, the sun will set at about 358 degrees near midnight and rise again a few minutes later at about 2 degrees. A few miles farther North the sun will touch the Northern horizon without setting and come back up.
On June 21 about midnight. A thousand miles farther North the sun will not set or even kiss the horizon in May, June, July and most of August. Neil

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-06, 04:17 PM
I'm not really adding anything to what's been said already, but since Attiyah Zahdeh wants reports based on personal experience rather than links to scientific sources, I suppose several independent reports of the same thing are the best level of evidence we can offer.
I've a cumulative experience of several months at high latitudes during the summer season, much of that time at 70 or 80 degrees north.

(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?Blue sky, bright sun, feels like some time in the afternoon despite being 12 midnight. The usual photographs of the midnight sun don't do the season justice: they're often taken from North Cape in Norway, or from north Iceland, with the sun very low on the horizon, so it looks like sunset. In the high Arctic it's just like a day that goes on all night.

(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun?No. Blue sky.

(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it?No. Blue sky, bright sun.

(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?At the latitudes I'm talking about, the sun is above the horizon for months on end. There is no night.

(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?The local creatures have evolved to exploit the continuous daylight. I've seen polar bears and arctic foxes hunting, and seabirds fishing, at clock times near midnight.

(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?Can't be seen: blue sky, bright sun.

Grant Hutchison

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-06, 05:14 PM
Thanks to: Mr. Zeros and Ones, Jens, Maskutov, Neilzero, and Grant Hutchison.

Maskutov chose this URL:
Here's an article that might help you with this phenomenon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun)
IN Maskutov-chosen URL one can read:
"The midnight sun is a phenomenon occurring in latitudes north of the Arctic Circle and south of the Antarctic Circle where the sun is continuously visible for at least 24 hours once per year".



==============

Gentlemen,

I want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night (of 21th of June , Summer Solstice) at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle.

(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun?
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it?
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?
An extra question:
(7) What about the colors at the time of the midnight Sun?

JohnW
2006-Sep-06, 05:18 PM
An extra question:
(7) What about the colors at the time of the midnight Sun?
See the above answers. It's daylight. Colours look like they do during the day anywhere else on Earth. At your specific location (the Arctic Circle), the Sun is very low - just scraping the horizon - at midnight on June 21, so colours look like they do at sunset anywhere.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-06, 05:25 PM
Yes, see above. It's daylight, with the sun sitting on the horizon in the north.
The colours (by which I presume you mean the colours of sky and sun, rather than anything else) are as you would see with the sun sitting on the horizon anywhere else in the world.

Grant Hutchison

Nereid
2006-Sep-06, 05:28 PM
Thanks to: Mr. Zeros and Ones, Jens, Maskutov, Neilzero, and Grant Hutchison.

Maskutov chose this URL:
Here's an article that might help you with this phenomenon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun)
IN Maskutov-chosen URL one can read:
"The midnight sun is a phenomenon occurring in latitudes north of the Arctic Circle and south of the Antarctic Circle where the sun is continuously visible for at least 24 hours once per year".



==============

Gentlemen,

I want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night (of 21th of June , Summer Solstice) at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle.

(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun?
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it?
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?
An extra question:
(7) What about the colors at the time of the midnight Sun?Same as has already been noted (except for the behaviour of the birds and animals - to be honest, I didn't pay any attention).

There was one 'midnight sun night' I observed that was quite dark - it was overcast, and seemed just like any overcast morning, around sunrise (and no, I did not see any blue sky, nor aurorae, nor stars, nor planets!)

Click Ticker
2006-Sep-06, 05:28 PM
Take a globe. Turn all the lights off in the room. Shine a flashlight at the globe directly at the side with the north pole leaning toward you. Does the north pole on the globe always appear lit as you spin the globe on its axis?

You're confusing midnight with night time. Midnight is just a function of the clock. Night time generally equals darkness in most peoples minds. If the sun is shining at midnight, there is no darkness at midnight regardless of that particular time being called "midnight".

Midnight sun simply means that the sun is out at that particular time of day.

01101001
2006-Sep-06, 05:31 PM
Since personal testimony is obviously so way more useful than reputed facts in such as recommended books and respected websites, I'll provide my own unique ones. I didn't sleep well last night. I feel a fiction coming on.


(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear?Glad you asked. Bright bright bluish white against an absolutely black sky. This happens exactly at midnight, and is over in less than a blink of an eye. The rest of the time, the sun looks dimmer, about like the moon. Some people say they see diagonal stripes, but I never have.


(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun??Glad you asked. They have to be ready. A good astronomy book is usually necessary in order to see the stars and planets during the wonderful midnight sun. I like page 26 in mine.


(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it??Glad you asked. Of course! Why do you think they call it midnight? It's blacker than normal -- except for that bright flash from the sun at midnight. The diagonal stripes I always see are sort of a charcoal color.


(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun?Glad you asked. It is exactly eight hours, just like all other nights.


(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night?Glad you asked. You wouldn't believe it. Birds, normally asleep, begin to sleepwalk. Land animals take to the lakes and rivers and begin to swim about. Most amazingly, fish leap high into the air, as if flying. Maybe they are scared out of the water by the animals. Many of the fish fly so high they die of ozone poisoning. It usually stinks the next day from all the dead blue fish. Swedes that know how, make surströmming. Oh, amphibians, they don't know what to do. Some do and some don't. It probably depends on if they see their shadow.


(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun?Glad you asked. There is usually, but not always, a fantastic double-aura, during the midnight sun, one that looks normal and one with its colors reversed -- as if the aura had been turned inside out. Beautiful! I'd link to the pictures I took, but you don't want them.


So as to be able to ask and discuss such an information-introducing person without giving him any opportunity to dodge or claim misunderstanding others' writings.Glad you think so. That won't be necessary, I assure you. I hope these uncertified non-facts are not of no assistance.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-06, 07:48 PM
Same as has already been noted (except for the behaviour of the birds and animals - to be honest, I didn't pay any attention).The birds and animals behave rather differently in the low Arctic, since they have a more regular cycle of light and dark (or, at least, bright and dim). So they tend to follow something of a diurnal cycle.
I was in Akureyri, northern Iceland, on 21 June 1986. We drove up to Sauðanes at midnight: the peninsula is a little south of the Arctic Circle, but high enough to allow a view of the midnight sun at solstice. Orange disc of the sun on the northern horizon, band of yellow-orange around the horizon, blue sky overhead, certainly no stars. But the seabirds were on their nests, and were much quieter than they are during the middle of the day.

Grant Hutchison

captain swoop
2006-Sep-06, 11:14 PM
The questions were answered. Its daylight all the time!! There is no 'night' as in darkness, if the sun is 'up' then its daylight with a blue sky!!

When the sun sets then its dark all the time.


Why is this hard to understand?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 12:44 AM
All the previous answers did not take my specifacations into consideration.

I want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night that is of Summer Solstice, and at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle itelf.

A new question:

From where did the term "midnight Sun" come?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-07, 01:21 AM
From where did the term "midnight Sun" come?


Taking a shot in the not so dark: Because the sun is up at midnight. Hence, "midnight sun."

I think you're having a fundamental problem with the concept, but the answer isn't going to change because you want it to.

Jens
2006-Sep-07, 01:34 AM
I want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night that is of Summer Solstice, and at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle itelf.


I'm just curious, but why are you interested in this so much?

cjl
2006-Sep-07, 01:38 AM
It is midnight sun, because the sun is up at midnight.

However, there is no "night of the midnight sun" because, quite simply, there is no night. It is simply daylight all the time.

At exactly midnight, on the arctic circle, on the summer solstice, the sun will be on the horizon, similar to sunset, except that it will never dip completely under the horizon - it will just drop down, kiss the horizon, then come back up again. The colors will be similar to those at sunset. As with anyplace on earth at sunset, you cannot see stars, and only the brightest planets would be visible. Auroras would not be visible, as they would be overpowered by the skyshine.

Here (http://users.tkk.fi/~vliski/midnight_sun.jpg) is EXACTLY what it looks like (that was taken at right around midnight in northern Europe). Yes, I know you don't want links, but that one picture answers more than half of your questions far more effectively than words ever could.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 01:40 AM
Taking a shot in the not so dark: Because the sun is up at midnight. Hence, "midnight sun."

I think you're having a fundamental problem with the concept, but the answer isn't going to change because you want it to.

Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?
Why did they use the word "midnight"?

Hamlet
2006-Sep-07, 01:57 AM
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?

Who knows? The concept has probably been around as long as people have been living above the Arctic Circle.



Why did they use the word "midnight"?

Because the sun is visible at midnight. Why is this so hard to understand? Did you perform the experiment with a globe and flashlight?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 01:57 AM
It is midnight sun, because the sun is up at midnight.

However, there is no "night of the midnight sun" because, quite simply, there is no night. It is simply daylight all the time.

At exactly midnight, on the arctic circle, on the summer solstice, the sun will be on the horizon, similar to sunset, except that it will never dip completely under the horizon - it will just drop down, kiss the horizon, then come back up again. The colors will be similar to those at sunset. As with anyplace on earth at sunset, you cannot see stars, and only the brightest planets would be visible. Auroras would not be visible, as they would be overpowered by the skyshine.

Here (http://users.tkk.fi/~vliski/midnight_sun.jpg) is EXACTLY what it looks like (that was taken at right around midnight in northern Europe). Yes, I know you don't want links, but that one picture answers more than half of your questions far more effectively than words ever could.

Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?

Why did they use the word "midnight"?

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 02:02 AM
I'm just curious, but why are you interested in this so much?
I am inerested to have your answers, too.

Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?

Why did they use the word "midnight"?

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice?

publius
2006-Sep-07, 02:06 AM
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?
Why did they use the word "midnight"?

Who first coined the term "full moon"? Who first coined the term "midnight" and "midday", "noon", etc? Midnight sun means the sun is up at midnight = 12AM local time. I've never seen, oh Hawaii, but I'm sure it's there and is as described.

At the poles, the sun never sets for around half the year -- you just see it sort of circle around the sky, reaching a low around "midnight" (time zones at the pole would be something else! Run around in a circle and go through all 24 time zones! Whoopee!) and a high around noon. Seriously, I do wonder what would be the best way to define a time zone for the poles?

As you get to lower latitudes, the effect happens for only a few days around the solstice, so it is certainly more special there.

That's all midnight sun means, the sun is up at midnight, 12AM local time.

-Richard

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-07, 02:07 AM
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?


As Hamlet said, I'm sure it was a long time ago. And I would expect it was coined repeatedly and independently. It is, after all, extremely obvious.




Why did they use the word "midnight"?

As I said the last time: Because the sun is up at midnight. Hence, "midnight sun."

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 02:11 AM
As Hamlet said, I'm sure it was a long time ago. And I would expect it was coined repeatedly and independently. It is, after all, extremely obvious.




As I said the last time: Because the sun is up at midnight. Hence, "midnight sun."
Thanks to Van Rijn and Hamlet,

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice?

Jens
2006-Sep-07, 02:14 AM
I am inerested to have your answers, too.


I am interested to have your answers, too. Why are you interested in this?

publius
2006-Sep-07, 02:22 AM
Whoops! If I've got it right, right at the pole, the height above the horizon wouldn't change (much) per day, the sun would just follow a circular path around. It's only when you go lower do you see up and down motion.


-Richard

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 02:26 AM
Whoops! If I've got it right, right at the pole, the height above the horizon wouldn't change (much) per day, the sun would just follow a circular path around. It's only when you go lower do you see up and down motion.


-Richard

Great Thanks, but how many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice so as to be sure that the term "midnight Sun" has nothing to do with the darkness of the real night or at least with the real dusk?

cjl
2006-Sep-07, 02:28 AM
I've seen it 3 times, on a vacation to Alaska. Trust me, it is not dark or even dusk. It is the equivalent of sunset (while the sun is still up), and the sun dips down without ever actually dropping below the horizon.

The path is shown by this illustration (http://academic.evergreen.edu/c/colmic01/images/midnight_sun.jpg)

Why do you not believe us?

As for midnight, that has nothing to do with the middle of the night. It is simply a time, like noon. It is simply 12AM local time, and the sun is up at that time in the arctic near the summer solstice. It is as simple as that.

publius
2006-Sep-07, 02:28 AM
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?

Why did they use the word "midnig


Great Thanks, but how many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice so as to be sure that term has nothing to do with the darkness of the real night or at least with the real dusk?


So you're in a cave and don't want to believe descriptions of the world outside the cave? Well, why don't you experience it for youself. Take a trip to the high latitudes and see it for yourself.

Put "midnight sun photos" in Google and you'll find all sorts of pictures, even some neat time-exposure ones showing the sun's path, going down to a low, then turning back up. But, I guess you could say that was photoshopped or something. <sigh>

-Richard

Faultline
2006-Sep-07, 02:34 AM
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when?
Why did they use the word "midnight"?

I'm not sure, but it was used as a clever phrase. Poetic, not literal. Figurative speech. An oxymoron, because the two terms "midnight" and "sun", although not opposites, are mutually exclusive in most cases.

Faultline
2006-Sep-07, 02:50 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun

This article has some information about the figurative midnight sun. I understand you didn't want links, but when I don't know, I google.

Read the part about St. Petersburg toward the bottom of the article.

Duane
2006-Sep-07, 03:20 AM
Attiyah Zadeh, I am not sure what you hope to accomplish here. If you are interested in the subject, I suggest you spend some time learning about it. Then, if you have questions, please feel free to return and ask.

The responces are getting a bit caustic, so take a break from the thread guys.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-07, 05:22 AM
As Hamlet said, I'm sure it was a long time ago. And I would expect it was coined repeatedly and independently. It is, after all, extremely obvious.

And in multiple languages, no doubt.

Jens
2006-Sep-07, 06:06 AM
And in multiple languages, no doubt.

It's an interesting issue, linguistically. From what I found, most European language use "midnight sun" like in English.

Another interesting pattern, which is used in Japanese is "white night." I think the Japanese comes from Russian, because in Russian I'm pretty sure it's also "white night." I looked it up on Wikipedia but I'm not that good at Russian. It's Бяла нощ, which I think transliterates as byala nosch, which I think means "white night." I think that's quite a beautiful term for the phenomenon.

And in Chinese, if I read it correctly, they use something that means "Arctic day".

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 06:09 AM
Attiyah Zadeh, I am not sure what you hope to accomplish here. If you are interested in the subject, I suggest you spend some time learning about it. Then, if you have questions, please feel free to return and ask.

The responces are getting a bit caustic, so take a break from the thread guys.

Hello Duane,
Please inform those whose responses are caustic that Attiyah is sure that, in respect to the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice, the phenomenon of the midnight Sun means a real sunny midnight.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 06:26 AM
I'm not sure, but it was used as a clever phrase. Poetic, not literal. Figurative speech. An oxymoron, because the two terms "midnight" and "sun", although not opposites, are mutually exclusive in most cases.

Hello Faultline,

Respecting the Summer Solstice day at the Arctic Circle, the term 'midnight Sun" is not at all an oxymoron term. At the Arctic Circle itself at the time of the Summer Solstice itself, the midnight Sun means a real sunny midnight.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 06:40 AM
I've seen it 3 times, on a vacation to Alaska. Trust me, it is not dark or even dusk. It is the equivalent of sunset (while the sun is still up), and the sun dips down without ever actually dropping below the horizon.

The path is shown by this illustration (http://academic.evergreen.edu/c/colmic01/images/midnight_sun.jpg)

Why do you not believe us?

As for midnight, that has nothing to do with the middle of the night. It is simply a time, like noon. It is simply 12AM local time, and the sun is up at that time in the arctic near the summer solstice. It is as simple as that.

Hello CJL,
I trust that you have seen the "midnight Sun" 3 times but not on the Arctic Circle on the Summer Solstice.

SMEaton
2006-Sep-07, 08:22 AM
Thanks to Van Rijn and Hamlet,

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice?
It seems like Attiyah is trying to set up a straw man argument. Just a question... something that has never been answered, Attiyah, throughout your various locked threads: how many times have you, Attiyah, witnessed the "never-ending sun" (my new phrase which can not be used by anyone who is not me, so said by myself, which is me) which is repeatedly referenced by the "Attiyah Sun Theory" and the "Blueness of the Sky is Caused By the Ozone" post? How many times have you been to the extreme upper or lower latitudes to witness this effect, and thus provide counter-examples to those who have? So far there have been many replies from persons who have visited the regions near the Arctic (or Antarctic) whose testimony refutes every one of your claims.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-07, 08:32 AM
Hello CJL,
I trust that you have seen the "midnight Sun" 3 times but not on the Arctic Circle on the Summer Solstice.Are you suggesting that this "sunny midnight" of yours occurs only if one is precisely on the Arctic Circle? To within what tolerance? 100km, 10km, 1m, 1cm? By setting the tolerance very low, you would ensure that people are unable to refute or confirm your hypothesis by direct observation, since perhaps no-one alive today would have ever been in the right place at the right time.
But then you'd have to explain why "midnight sun" is in such common usage, if the phenomenon itself is so extremely difficult to observe.
And you'd also have to explain how, according to your hypothesis, if I were to walk across the Arctic Circle at midnight on the solstice, the sky could change colour from blue to black to blue again, over a very short distance, with the sun in the sky all the time. And why the sky is not black when the sun's disc is visible in the sky on every other observed occasion, both below and above the Arctic Circle.

Grant Hutchison

Gillianren
2006-Sep-07, 09:05 AM
Not to mention why the term so long predates polar exploration.

tusenfem
2006-Sep-07, 11:45 AM
Have any of you ever seen Attiyah Zahdeh?
Please do not attach any pictures of this meeting.

*** oh I just could not help myself ***

Faultline
2006-Sep-07, 12:25 PM
So you're claiming that, if the observer is standing on the arctic circle line, and the date is the summer solstice, that the sky will be as dark as a normal midnight anywhere else and the sun will be visible.

Now that you have made a claim, it is up to you to prove it. You cannot shift the burden of proof to us. In other words, we don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you are right.

Got any evidence?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 01:11 PM
So you're claiming that, if the observer is standing on the arctic circle line, and the date is the summer solstice, that the sky will be as dark as a normal midnight anywhere else and the sun will be visible.

Now that you have made a claim, it is up to you to prove it. You cannot shift the burden of proof to us. In other words, we don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you are right.

Got any evidence?

Do you agree that the dusk is a real part of the night?

Faultline
2006-Sep-07, 01:18 PM
Do you agree that the dusk is a real part of the night?

No I do not agree. Besides, I define "dusk" as the time while the sun is below the horizon, but the sky is still lit by its indirect light. It never reaches dusk on the arctic circle during the day of the Summer solstice.

Essan
2006-Sep-07, 01:30 PM
Midnight means 00.00z - ie a period of time exactly 12 hours before/after midday.

Midnight Sun refers to the sun still being on or above the horizon at 00.00z

When the sun is on or above the horizon - regardless of what time of day it is - we experience daylight (okay, unless there's an eclipse ;) )

On the 21st June, the sun will on on, or above, the horizon at 00.00z at all place on or north of the arctic circle. These regions therefore experience 24 hours of daylight.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-07, 02:25 PM
Do you agree that the dusk is a real part of the night?It's debatable: if "night" is defined as the period between sunset and sunrise, then dusk is part of the night. If "night" does not include the two twilight periods (before sunrise and after sunset), as it does in some civil and astronomical definitions, then "night" does not include dusk.
It has no relevance to Faultline's question either way, however, because "dusk" occurs after the sun sets (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/DUSK), as Faultline points out, so the condition "midnight sun" excludes the condition "dusk".

Can you please specify how close to the Arctic Circle, how close to midnight and how close to the solstice we would have to make our observations in order to see your "sunny midnight"?

Grant Hutchison

lek
2006-Sep-07, 03:06 PM
It's an interesting issue, linguistically. From what I found, most European language use "midnight sun" like in English.

Another interesting pattern, which is used in Japanese is "white night." I think the Japanese comes from Russian, because in Russian I'm pretty sure it's also "white night." I looked it up on Wikipedia but I'm not that good at Russian. It's Бяла нощ, which I think transliterates as byala nosch, which I think means "white night." I think that's quite a beautiful term for the phenomenon.

And in Chinese, if I read it correctly, they use something that means "Arctic day".

In Finland most used term is "nightless night". Though "midnight sun" is beeing used often also.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-07, 03:27 PM
I looked it up on Wikipedia but I'm not that good at Russian. It's Бяла нощ, which I think transliterates as byala nosch, which I think means "white night."Yes, byala noshch. They talk about "white nights" in St Petersburg during the summer. St Petersburg is at 60 N, so the sun is below the horizon at midnight, but the sky is bright with pale blue twilight all night: you can walk around without really needing street lighting.
I've always imagined that the phrase "white night" referred specifically to this phenomenon: the sun sets, but there is an absence of real night because the twilight persists until sunrise. But that may just be my interpretation: I've no evidence that Russians at higher latitudes don't use the same phrase to describe the midnight sun.

Grant Hutchison

captain swoop
2006-Sep-07, 03:36 PM
Attiyah, can Iask why you don't want to be given any refs or links to look at to explain this?

tony873004
2006-Sep-07, 05:38 PM
I was about 100 miles north of the Antarctic Circle when I took this picture around midnight. Since I didn't cross the Antarctic Circle, the Sun did set, but it never sank low enough below the horizon for it to get dark.

Because of camera settings, this picture looks darker than I remember it being.
http://orbitsimulator.com/Antarctica/1024/IMG_67591024.jpg

cjl
2006-Sep-07, 06:50 PM
No, it wasn't exactly on the arctic circle on the solstice. It was a couple weeks after solstice, and around 80 miles north of the circle. The sun just kissed the horizon before rising again.

Is there any reason it would be different 80 miles south and a couple weeks before?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 07:06 PM
Attiyah, can Iask why you don't want to be given any refs or links to look at to explain this?

Hello Captain Swoop,
Please give what you find necessary.

Robert Andersson
2006-Sep-07, 08:23 PM
I was about 100 miles north of the Antarctic Circle when I took this picture around midnight.
That is one really nice picture. Thanks for sharing. :clap:

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 08:23 PM
It's debatable: if "night" is defined as the period between sunset and sunrise, then dusk is part of the night. If "night" does not include the two twilight periods (before sunrise and after sunset), as it does in some civil and astronomical definitions, then "night" does not include dusk.
It has no relevance to Faultline's question either way, however, because "dusk" occurs after the sun sets (http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/DUSK), as Faultline points out, so the condition "midnight sun" excludes the condition "dusk".

Can you please specify how close to the Arctic Circle, how close to midnight and how close to the solstice we would have to make our observations in order to see your "sunny midnight"?

Grant Hutchison
============
Hello Grant Hutchison,

Please read this:


"Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky".

What do you conclude, Grant?

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Sep-07, 08:25 PM
Please read this: summer solstice midnight sun summer solstice

"Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky".
I don't know where you got this, but they have the direction wrong. The Sun would be just above the northern horizon at midnight, and the full moon just above the southern horizon in the scenario you suggest. The Sun would be above the horizon for the entire day but the Moon would be above the southern horizon only for a few hours. Note that the sky is described as "dusky", that is, as bright as dusk. (Which is pretty bright near sunrise/sunset!)

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-07, 08:55 PM
In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky".

What do you conclude, Grant?I conclude the writer can't tell north from south, and that the emphasis is on an attempt at poetry rather than scientific reportage.
I also conclude that the writer was quite a long way from the Arctic Circle at the time the observation was made. It happens that I've also been to Eagle Summit, which lies at 65.5 N, rather more than a hundred kilometres from the Arctic Circle.
Sau&#240;anes in Iceland, where I made my own observation of the midnight sun on solstice night, is at 66.25 N, four times closer.

My observing location was much closer to matching your requirements for a "sunny midnight" than was the location in this rather opaque report, and yet I observed the sky to be blue. What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 08:58 PM
I don't know where you got this, but they have the direction wrong. The Sun would be just above the northern horizon at midnight, and the full moon just above the southern horizon in the scenario you suggest. The Sun would be above the horizon for the entire day but the Moon would be above the southern horizon only for a few hours. Note that the sky is described as "dusky", that is, as bright as dusk. (Which is pretty bright near sunrise/sunset!)

Hello CM,
The observer said that he watched the real midnight sun!
He meant as dark as a dusk!

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 09:11 PM
I conclude the writer can't tell north from south, and that the emphasis is on an attempt at poetry rather than scientific reportage.
I also conclude that the writer was quite a long way from the Arctic Circle at the time the observation was made. It happens that I've also been to Eagle Summit, which lies at 65.5 N, rather more than a hundred kilometres from the Arctic Circle.
Sauðanes in Iceland, where I made my own observation of the midnight sun on solstice night, is at 66.25 N, four times closer.

My observing location was much closer to matching your requirements for a "sunny midnight" than was the location in this rather opaque report, and yet I observed the sky to be blue. What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

No doubt, I conclude that you did not watch the real midnight sun. Accordingly, the real midnight sun implies a sunny midnight.

DyerWolf
2006-Sep-07, 09:18 PM
Attiyah,

I get the feeling that English may not be your first language. Your English seems fluent, but not nuanced. I mean no disrespect, but some of what you are arguing about with other posters seems, perhaps, due to a misunderstanding of the nuances of the language. If so, what is your first language? I can understand why you quibble about the definition and description of events surrounding the "midnight sun" - if its from a mutual misunderstanding based upon faulty interpretation. Would this be correct?

I also get the impression your educational background differs from many of the others here. Again, no disrespect intended; but perhaps understanding where you are coming from may assist folks here in explaining what seems to them to be fairly straightforward concepts. Is a secular education the norm where you come from?

Celestial Mechanic
2006-Sep-07, 09:19 PM
No doubt, I conclude that you did not watch the real midnight sun. Accordingly, the real midnight sun implies a sunny midnight.
Well, Mr. Zahdeh, maybe you'll just have to go to a polar region AND SEE FOR YOURSELF, since none of us is saying what you want to hear. :evil:

Ordinarily at this point I would suggest "Get thee to a library", but I don't think they'll tell you what you want to hear either. ;)

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-07, 09:22 PM
No doubt, I conclude that you did not watch the real midnight sun. Accordingly, the real midnight sun implies a sunny midnight.You haven't seen it yourself, it would appear.
You have offered no evidence (apart from the use of the word "dusky" by someone who used "orb" in the same sentence) to support your idea.
You have offered no theory to support your idea.
You asked for eyewitness reports and have been offered several, all confirming the brightness of the sky at the time of the midnight sun.

And the whole exercise ends up with you shouting
real
It seems a little pointless ...

Grant Hutchison

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-07, 09:23 PM
Attiyah,

I get the feeling that English may not be your first language. Your English seems fluent, but not nuanced. I mean no disrespect, but some of what you are arguing about with other posters seems, perhaps, due to a misunderstanding of the nuances of the language. If so, what is your first language? I can understand why you quibble about the definition and description of events surrounding the "midnight sun" - if its from a mutual misunderstanding based upon faulty interpretation. Would this be correct?


That's a fair point. For instance, with the sun right on the horizon and long shadows some of the sky can be described as "dusky." That is not the same as dusk (deep twilight/quite dark). The meaning is different.

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-07, 09:42 PM
No doubt, I conclude that you did not watch the real midnight sun. Accordingly, the real midnight sun implies a sunny midnight.

And this looks like another example of the language issue. The sun is up at midnight. What is the supposed distinction between saying "midnight sun" and "sunny midnight"? Saying that it is "sunny" means that the sun is up. You could also say "The sun is visible in the sky at a local time of 12:00am or 0000 military time." Does that make it clearer?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-07, 09:45 PM
summer solstice midnight sun summer solstice

"Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky".

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html

Nowhere Man
2006-Sep-07, 09:47 PM
Glad you asked. Bright bright bluish white against an absolutely black sky. (etc.)
Go ahead, pull the other one, it's got bells on. :D

Fred

Maksutov
2006-Sep-07, 10:49 PM
Certain posts in this thread appear to be full of zounds and flurry, signifying nothing.

On to other, better things...

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/frech/s015.gif

captain swoop
2006-Sep-07, 10:57 PM
I can't see where this thread is going to go.

Tell us what you think people should see, you don't seem to want to read what people say they are seeing.

cjl
2006-Sep-08, 01:17 AM
summer solstice midnight sun summer solstice

"Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky".

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html

Did you look at the image in the link you pointed us to?

Because this image (http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/midnitesun.JPG) from the site you linked to is entitled "The Midnight Sun in interior Alaska, June 21, 1997"

Clearly, it is not dark in that picture.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 04:11 AM
http://www.barentsphoto.com/viewimage.php/239305.921.pdedbxyfrf/Midnight%20sun.jpg.14154.html

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 04:17 AM
Did you look at the image in the link you pointed us to?

Because this image (http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/midnitesun.JPG) from the site you linked to is entitled "The Midnight Sun in interior Alaska, June 21, 1997"

Clearly, it is not dark in that picture.




Because of the full moon.
As well, the picture does not show the zenith sky.

Please see these pictures wherein the night darknees is dominant.

http://www.simnet.is/gardarj/mapa/mid.htm
http://square.umin.ac.jp/murata/midn...990727_mid.jpg
http://www.arcus.org/TREC/VBC/upload..._9_1_44704.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/http://www.barentsphoto.com/getfile.php/

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 04:25 AM
http://curtisbogan.com/alaska-album/images/Midnight_Sun_jpg.jpg

publius
2006-Sep-08, 04:39 AM
Take your camera and take a shot of the setting sun. You'll see the sky is very dark looking in the image, 'cause the sun is so bright it washes it out. I'm no photographer by a long shot, but I first discovered this taking "brag" pictures of some of my stainless steel welding. The stainless was so bright, it washed out the surroundings, and I had to play around with Photoshop to bring out details.

And I did that with the last link you posted, just increases the brightness. One case easily see there is blue in the data, and you can deduce it looks just like any normal near sunset.

May I ask just what in tarnation is your point/idea/theory about all this? That the sun is somehow not the sun?

-Richard

publius
2006-Sep-08, 04:47 AM
And yet another one of your links with the brightness increased: This one looks even more normal:

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-08, 04:54 AM
Because of the full moon.

No. This was the photo of the moon:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/strawberrymoon.JPG

This was the photo of the sun right on the horizon:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/midnitesun.JPG



Please see these pictures wherein the night darknees is dominant.

http://www.simnet.is/gardarj/mapa/mid.htm


The sun appears to be below the horizon.

As for the others, the links don't work for me. Also, you can't ignore exposure settings: If you are taking a picture of the sun, the sky will appear extremely dark by comparison.

Anyway, when the sun is up, and if there isn't heavy cloud cover, it will be sunny. End of story. There really isn't much more to say on this subject.

SMEaton
2006-Sep-08, 05:17 AM
Also, you can't ignore exposure settings: If you are taking a picture of the sun, the sky will appear extremely dark by comparison.This has already been pointed out to Attiyah, by several people, in the "Attiyah Sun Theory" (which isn't really about the sun) thread, and most likely in the "Ozone" thread. No noticeable impact. Interesting how most of the photographs Attiyah hotlinks show blue sky, even with overexposure.

There really isn't much more to say on this subject.Yet there will still be responses until a mod locks the thread.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 06:10 AM
This has already been pointed out to Attiyah, by several people, in the "Attiyah Sun Theory" (which isn't really about the sun) thread, and most likely in the "Ozone" thread. No noticeable impact. Interesting how most of the photographs Attiyah hotlinks show blue sky, even with overexposure.
Yet there will still be responses until a mod locks the thread.

I see that each time those who fail to defend their counterarguments "introduce a petition" to the moderators to lock the thread under discussion. Why do such members interfere in the moderaters' affairs?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 06:24 AM
Take your camera and take a shot of the setting sun. You'll see the sky is very dark looking in the image, 'cause the sun is so bright it washes it out. I'm no photographer by a long shot, but I first discovered this taking "brag" pictures of some of my stainless steel welding. The stainless was so bright, it washed out the surroundings, and I had to play around with Photoshop to bring out details.

And I did that with the last link you posted, just increases the brightness. One case easily see there is blue in the data, and you can deduce it looks just like any normal near sunset.

May I ask just what in tarnation is your point/idea/theory about all this? That the sun is somehow not the sun?

-Richard

Your explanation "cause the sun is so bright it washes it out" does not apply to these picyures.

Do you know who were the first to use the term "midnight sun"?

Why did they use it?

I consider that those who first coined the "midnight sun" term used it to express a natural phenomenon of the sun itself in certain cases. They saw the sun during real nights with real darkness.

publius
2006-Sep-08, 06:29 AM
Your explanation "cause the sun is so bright it washes it out" does not apply to these picyures.

Do you know who were the first to use the term "midnight sun"?

Why did they use it?

I consider that those who first coined the "midnight sun" term used it to express a natural phenomenon of the sun itself in certain cases. They saw the sun during real nights with real darkness.


Did you not see my Photoshop brightness increase of two of your links? The blue information was in there, just very dark relative to the brightness of the sun. You can do that yourself with any similiar software. This pretty much shows the darkness was due to exposure.

And if I can remember, I'm gonna grab my camera tomorrow and take a picture of the sunset. We'll see how dark that looks with autoexposure on, and I'll see how much information I can pull out with Photoshop.


-Richard

Tog
2006-Sep-08, 06:30 AM
Your explanation "cause the sun is so bright it washes it out" does not apply to these picyures.

Do you know who were the first to use the term "midnight sun"?

Why did they use it?

I consider that those who first coined the "midnight sun" term used it to express a natural phenomenon of the sun itself in certain cases. They saw the sun during real nights with real darkness.

I've been following this thread but as I've never been north of 49 degrees, I didn't have anything to offer. I now have a question.

If the sun is 1 degree above the horizon, why would there be any difference in the look of the sky from that one point on the globe, at the one time of the year? It makes no sense at all. Perhaps you could explain WHY you think the sky would be dark with the Sun visible in the sky, as opposed to just continually restating that a midnight sun means a real sunny midnight.

tusenfem
2006-Sep-08, 06:48 AM
Well, the reason is clear why Attiyah wants to have the sky dark during the arctic summer. You just have to go to the ATM section where (s)he explains that the light of the daytime sky is caused by aurora and some light dome which sometimes was observed by Birkeland during his terella experiments (but never has been observed around the Earth I might say). I guess for some reason these processes are switched off during the "midnight sun" and therefore the sky should be dark with only a bright sun somewhere.

Naturally, Attiyah could move to the moon, and he would have a bright sun in a dark sky all the time :-)

Unfortunately, I do not have an ethymological dictionary for English, so I cannot look up when "midnight sun" was used for the first time (in writing!!) but I assume that it was a looooooong time ago.

The website with the prosaic language (her (http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html)) clearly has some problems, because being so far north, it is impossible to see the moon in the north.

At the same time Attiyah has no knowledge of how cameras work. I guess (s)he never took a picture of a bright object with a regular automatic camera, which will set the exposure time such that the bright object does not overexpose, which will naturally mean that all other stuff around it is underexposed. This means that the sky, whenever you take a picture of the sun, not only during arctic summer, will be dark.

But all this writing will not change Attiyah's insight, knowledge or his already made-up mind, but we can keep trying to edumacate her/him.

SMEaton
2006-Sep-08, 07:40 AM
I see that each time those who fail to defend their counterarguments "introduce a petition" to the moderators to lock the thread under discussion. Why do such members interfere in the moderaters' affairs?Please realize that I wasn't calling for a moderator to intervene. As a proponent of an idea that does not mesh with a host of theories backed by actual observation, it falls upon you to provide the evidence for your claims. Throughout several threads you have failed to do so. You might hotlink images or provide text, as if to say "This evidence!", but all of your photographic evidence actually works against your claims. All of your linked references can only beg the question: should a serious reader/poster take your claims seriously?
Please realize that you have yet to provide a valid reason why the sky is recognizably blue in the images that you have hotlinked (despite the obvious copyright issues, leading to the forum rule against hotlinking) in various posts throughout this entire discussion.

Mellow
2006-Sep-08, 08:55 AM
Kinda good news maybe, in 2000, I visited Murmansk in Russia, from Jun 17th to 23rd. Guess what, on the 21st, it was clear (ish) and the sun was visible at midnight and the sky was a normal blue colour. Not black with a sun visible, blue, like an ordinary day.

Ah, I've just checked, I think Murmansk is just above the Arctic circle, so I guess the OP won't be happy with my personal account.

Jens
2006-Sep-08, 09:33 AM
I see that each time those who fail to defend their counterarguments "introduce a petition" to the moderators to lock the thread under discussion. Why do such members interfere in the moderaters' affairs?

What "counterarguments"? I thought you were asking questions? How does one offer counterarguments to questions?

And also, in response to your question about who coined the term "midnight sun," I don't know, but I'm virtually certain it's not originally an English term, so you'd have to look elsewhere. I assume that it was originally brought into English from a Scandinavian language. The English wouldn't have invented it, since they can't experience it.

Also, just as my own question to you, which I hope you'll respond to, what is the term you use in Arabic? Is it similar to "midnight sun"?

Gillianren
2006-Sep-08, 09:53 AM
I tried Googling "etymology midnight sun"; the second thing that comes up is one of my own posts in the ATM section of this very board. Nothing useful came up, so far as I can tell, and I don't think any of my books have an answer as to how old the expression is. But again, it long predates polar exploration.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-08, 10:53 AM
Well, the reason is clear why Attiyah wants to have the sky dark during the arctic summer. You just have to go to the ATM section where (s)he explains that the light of the daytime sky is caused by aurora and some light dome which sometimes was observed by Birkeland during his terella experiments (but never has been observed around the Earth I might say). I guess for some reason these processes are switched off during the "midnight sun" and therefore the sky should be dark with only a bright sun somewhere.Yes, I'm reminded of Huxley's line, "... many a beautiful theory was killed by an ugly fact." The recent progression of posts very much makes it appear as if Attiyah Zahdeh is trying to make that process run backwards.

Grant Hutchison

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-08, 11:02 AM
... but all of your photographic evidence actually works against your claims.Here's a thought.
Attiyah Zahdeh, is it possible the colour balance on your computer monitor is off?
Over on the ozone thread you seemed to deny that a couple of obviously blue images contained any blue; now you seem to be doing the same here.
I remember some time ago a user posted a bug report on the Celestia forum, saying that (blue) orbits weren't plotted. This was accompanied by a screenshot showing very evident blue orbits. Turned out the problem was due to an elderly monitor with rather weary blue phosphors.

Grant Hutchison

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 11:36 AM
What "counterarguments"? I thought you were asking questions? How does one offer counterarguments to questions?

And also, in response to your question about who coined the term "midnight sun," I don't know, but I'm virtually certain it's not originally an English term, so you'd have to look elsewhere. I assume that it was originally brought into English from a Scandinavian language. The English wouldn't have invented it, since they can't experience it.

Also, just as my own question to you, which I hope you'll respond to, what is the term you use in Arabic? Is it similar to "midnight sun"?


Some of the members bahaved in a manner such that their responses tried to give counterarguments.

Suppose that it is right that ancient Scandanavians invented this term (midnight sun), then why did they relate the sun with midnight if there experience had nothing to do with seeing the sun during a real night, or with seeing " a sunny night"?

Apparently, you want to get sure that Arabic is my first language. True!
Arabs had no experience with such a phenomenon. Only we translate the term into "Shams Muntasf Al-Lail". Were Attiyah an ancient Scandanavian, he should call it "night-darkness Sun" (in Arabic : Shams Zalam Al-lail).

V-GER
2006-Sep-08, 11:46 AM
The term "midnight" just means a certain time of a 24 hour day. It's got nothing to do with the sky being dark. the term "midnight sun" refers to a situation where the sun is still visible at midnight. Hence the term "midnight sun." Once again, nothing to do with the sky being black/dark whatever. Why would you think it did?

As for who invented the term and when, I've no idea. I can only speak about how we understand it today. But I don't think the sky was any different was ancient Scandinavians...

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 11:46 AM
I tried Googling "etymology midnight sun"; the second thing that comes up is one of my own posts in the ATM section of this very board. Nothing useful came up, so far as I can tell, and I don't think any of my books have an answer as to how old the expression is. But again, it long predates polar exploration.

Hello Gilli,
What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration?

tusenfem
2006-Sep-08, 11:46 AM
So, maybe the Arab translation of "midnight sun" is a little inaccurate, because the old astronomers/scientists had not experienced the phenomenon in person, but only from documents that they received from the north.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 12:02 PM
So, maybe the Arab translation of "midnight sun" is a little inaccurate, because the old astronomers/scientists had not experienced the phenomenon in person, but only from documents that they received from the north.

Hello Tusenfem,
Literally saying,

Shams means: "Sun"

Muntasaf means: "mid".

Lail means: "night"
( Al- is the Arabic for "the".
Do you think that the English translation for the original term was accurate?

V-GER
2006-Sep-08, 12:11 PM
Do you think that the English translation for the original term was accurate?

The only thing that matters is what the real thing looks like! And it has been demonstrated to you that the sky isn't black. The term "midnight sun" is very accurate since all it says is "the sun at midnight". Why would you think the arabic version was more accurate if, as you said yourself, you don't see the whole "phenomena" in the first place!

Faultline
2006-Sep-08, 01:16 PM
Blatantly repeating myself:


So you're claiming that, if the observer is standing on the arctic circle line, and the date is the summer solstice, that the sky will be as dark as a normal midnight anywhere else and the sun will be visible.

Now that you have made a claim, it is up to you to prove it. You cannot shift the burden of proof to us. In other words, we don't have to prove you wrong, you have to prove you are right.

Got any evidence?

I never got an answer. Attiyah, please read carefully. You can claim the sky is dark as night and the sun is still visible, but can you offer any proof? A witness who wrote about it isn't good enough. Pictures you offer show blue sky with a sun overexposing the image to make everything else darker.

DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 01:19 PM
The only thing that matters is what the real thing looks like! And it has been demonstrated to you that the sky isn't black. The term "midnight sun" is very accurate since all it says is "the sun at midnight". Why would you think the arabic version was more accurate if, as you said yourself, you don't see the whole "phenomena" in the first place!

Hello V-Ger,
I still insist on being sure that the sky of the true midnight Sun often appears as dark as any normal night.

Please read this once more


summer solstice midnight sun summer solstice

Here in Anchorage Alaska, it just barely gets dark as the sun dips below the horizon in the middle of the night during the summer. But we wanted to see the real midnight sun. So the day before solstice this year, we packed up our van and drove about 500 miles to a spot where, thanks to its higher latitude and altitude, you can see the real thing. Eagle Summit reaches the highest elevation on the Steese Highway, a mostly gravel road northeast of Fairbanks. In that magic place, on June 21st, we saw the sun at midnight as it "touched" the horizon but did not set in the southern sky. To the north there was a nearly full moon, both orbs shining brightly in the dusky midnight sky.

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html
============
Have you ever read the coming statement about the midnight Sun at Fairbanks?

" 'Midnight' sun really means that the sun is up at midnight, but it reaches its lowest point after 1:30 am. Perhaps the "All-Night Sun" is better."

DyerWolf
2006-Sep-08, 01:31 PM
Attiyah,

Folks are frustrated with your willful refusal to accept evidence contrary to your interpretation of a poetic reference.

Why, when faced with contrary observations, proof and explanations, do you persist in antagonistic quibbling?

I get the feeling you're trying to find support to prove a poetic cosmology like a flat earth or a sky dome.

Your arguments sound like you're on a one-man mission to get the modern-day 'Coppernicks' to recant their heretical beliefs and thus 'prove' a religious cosmology for you.

Care to comment?

lek
2006-Sep-08, 01:38 PM
I would be very interested in hearing how Attyah explains one dark night with sun up at arctic circle on summer solstice considering there hasn't been any dark nights for many weeks before that date, and there won't be one for many weeks after...

Hamlet
2006-Sep-08, 01:57 PM
I still insist on being sure that the sky of the true midnight Sun often appears as dark as any normal night.

Insist all you want, it doesn't change the facts. At the Arctic Circle or above, on the Summer Solstice, the Sun is visible at local midnight and it is NOT as dark as any normal night.



Please read this once more

We don't need to keep reading the same paragraph you have posted over and over again. It's a poetic description of an interesting event but, as others have posted, it doesn't even get the orientation of the sky correct.



in the dusky midnight sky.

Why is this significant? The Sun is low on the horizon and the sky would look very much like it does at sunrise or sunset.



" 'Midnight' sun really means that the sun is up at midnight, but it reaches its lowest point after 1:30 am. Perhaps the "All-Night Sun" is better."

You're quibbling over semantics and getting far too hung up on taking the phrase "midnight sun" too literally. Do you have an actual point to make? If you do then please state it succinctly. It's getting tiresome going over the same material over and over. Posters here have been very patient and have explained the concept of "midnight sun" so that anyone should be able to understand it.

If our explanations aren't good enough, then perhaps it's time to go to a library and educate yourself. You're not going to make much progress by trying to extract scientific understanding from poetry that is factually incorrect.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-08, 01:57 PM
Another thought.
Attiyah Zahdeh, does muntasf al-lail necessarily imply darkness in Arabic? I'm wondering if perhaps Arabic has a completely different expression for the time we'd symbolize by "00:00" on the twenty-four hour clock.
If so, you need to know that English dictionaries typically contain several definitions of "midnight", one of which relates purely to the time 00:00, and another of which relates to the middle of a period of darkness. We might also speak of the time 00:00 as "twelve at night" or "twelve midnight" to distinguish it from twelve noon. But again there's no requirement in that phrase that it be dark: it's just the way we say things.
So, as others have already said, the phrase "midnight sun", means a sun that is visible at 00:00, not a sun that is visible during a period of darkness.

Grant Hutchison

PS: I once got into a similar state of confusion in France, when I thought I knew the French word for "pothole". I mentioned to my host in the evening that my car had got briefly stuck in a pothole on the (truly horrible) mountain road to his village. This explanation for my late arrival was greeted with horror and bafflement.
Turns out I'd complained about the sort of pothole that cavers explore, which the French would call a marmite de g&#233;ant ("giant's cauldron"), rather than a deep patch of subsidence on a metalled road, which the French call a nid de poule ("hen's nest").

captain swoop
2006-Sep-08, 02:27 PM
Attiyah its easy.

Go to the Arctic and see for yourself. It's not like it's some kind of abstract thing. If you can't go yourself then you are going to have to take the evidence provided by those who have been and seen it and the scientific theory and reasoning provided. Simply repeating the same claim over and over is just wilful ignorance.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 03:38 PM
Another thought.
Attiyah Zahdeh, does muntasf al-lail necessarily imply darkness in Arabic? I'm wondering if perhaps Arabic has a completely different expression for the time we'd symbolize by "00:00" on the twenty-four hour clock.
If so, you need to know that English dictionaries typically contain several definitions of "midnight", one of which relates purely to the time 00:00, and another of which relates to the middle of a period of darkness. We might also speak of the time 00:00 as "twelve at night" or "twelve midnight" to distinguish it from twelve noon. But again there's no requirement in that phrase that it be dark: it's just the way we say things.
So, as others have already said, the phrase "midnight sun", means a sun that is visible at 00:00, not a sun that is visible during a period of darkness.

Grant Hutchison

.

Muntasaf al-lail necessarily implies darkness.

Grant Hutchison, you say:
"So, as others have already said, the phrase "midnight sun", means a sun that is visible at 00:00, not a sun that is visible during a period of darkness".

Accordingly, why the sun that is visible at at 00:00 could not be visible during a period of darkness?

Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness?

Have you ever been on the Eagle Summit, Fairbanks at or around 00:00 on 21st of June?

DyerWolf
2006-Sep-08, 03:58 PM
Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness?



Because it isn't.

Are you trying to prove a theory similar to that posted below?

"Just as the Jinn is of different type that we cannot see nor collide with but we can detect their gravity, there are six other Heavens that we cannot see nor collide with either but we can detect their gravity, superimposed above the visible one:

[Quran 41.12] So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and protection. Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.

According to the Quran, only the lowest Heaven has visible light. This means that this Dark Matter exists in the six Heavens superimposed above the lowest one. Also according to the Quran, each of these remaining six Heavens is of a different type and each has its own planets like Earth:

[Quran 65.12] Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); [Allah’s] command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

In Islam Earth is not a unique planet. Other planets like Earth do exist throughout the other six Heavens. It is just that we cannot see them nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity."
http://www.speed-light.info/

Or are you reading from this? The Sun at Midnight: The Revealed Mysteries of the Ahlul Bayt Sufis http://birthtime.info/spiritual6-b/free.php?in=us&asin=0967945801

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-08, 04:27 PM
Muntasaf al-lail necessarily implies darkness.Ah, that's interesting. Thank you.


Accordingly, why the sun that is visible at at 00:00 could not be visible during a period of darkness?
Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness?Because I have been 25km from the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, at 00:00, and it wasn't dark, as I've already described. I could see to the Arctic Circle and beyond from where I was standing, and all I could see was sunlit sea.


Have you ever been on the Eagle Summit, Fairbanks at or around 00:00 on 21st of June?No, but I've been closer to the Arctic Circle than Eagle Summit, at or around 00:00 on 21st of June, with a clear view northwards to a sea horizon. I had a better view than the person who wrote the report you keep quoting. You're asking me to believe your interpretation of a rather fuzzy passage written by someone who can't tell north from south, instead of believing what I saw. Why would I do that?

Grant Hutchison

captain swoop
2006-Sep-08, 05:15 PM
because obviously its dark at midnight!

Just likewhen its winter in the UK it can't be the middle of summer in Australia because its December!

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-08, 05:18 PM
Because it isn't.

Are you trying to prove a theory similar to that posted below?

"Just as the Jinn is of different type that we cannot see nor collide with but we can detect their gravity, there are six other Heavens that we cannot see nor collide with either but we can detect their gravity, superimposed above the visible one:

[Quran 41.12] So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and protection. Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.

According to the Quran, only the lowest Heaven has visible light. This means that this Dark Matter exists in the six Heavens superimposed above the lowest one. Also according to the Quran, each of these remaining six Heavens is of a different type and each has its own planets like Earth:

[Quran 65.12] Allah is the one who created seven Heavens and from Earth like them (of corresponding type); [Allah’s] command descends among them so that you may know that Allah is capable of anything and that Allah knows everything.

In Islam Earth is not a unique planet. Other planets like Earth do exist throughout the other six Heavens. It is just that we cannot see them nor collide with them but we can detect their gravity."
http://www.speed-light.info/

Or are you reading from this? The Sun at Midnight: The Revealed Mysteries of the Ahlul Bayt Sufis http://birthtime.info/spiritual6-b/free.php?in=us&asin=0967945801

Hello Dyerwolf,

I want to tell you that AZ is interested in the holy Quran, but the midnight Sun is not mentioned in any verse.

DyerWolf
2006-Sep-08, 05:29 PM
Hello Dyerwolf,

I want to tell you that AZ is interested in the holy Quran, but the midnight Sun is not mentioned in any verse.

Okay, but the question is: Do you have a pre-defined cosmology that you are trying to prove regardless of whether or not its precepts are incompatible with observation or experience?:eh:

.

.










C-Swoop: :clap:

JMV
2006-Sep-08, 07:29 PM
I would be very interested in hearing how Attyah explains one dark night with sun up at arctic circle on summer solstice considering there hasn't been any dark nights for many weeks before that date, and there won't be one for many weeks after...
Exactly!

I used to live two or three kilometers south of the Arctic Circle (is that close enough?) and trust me when I say this: nights, even midnights, are not dark during those midsummer weeks before and after the Summer Solstice. June 21st is actually the brightest night during the whole summer. I never saw the midnight sun itself, because it always dipped behind this big hill, but in spite of this the nights were never dark. The term white night described on this wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun) is suiting.


Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness?
Because I've observed that three kilometers south of the Arctic Circle at that time there is no period of darkness. Why would it be darker three kilometers north of my location of observation, when it should get brighter the more north you go?

Gillianren
2006-Sep-08, 07:33 PM
Hello Gilli,

For the fourth time, don't call me that. You may call me Gillian. You may call me Gillianren. But don't call me Gilli or Gil or any variant thereof. I have asked you this repeatedly, and I'm really starting to lose patience on the subject.


What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration?

That it does not refer to an event exclusive to the North Pole, since the first expeditions that actually reached the North Pole have done so only within the last hundred years, give or take, and the expression is centuries old at least. This is logic. However, since so is everything else we've been telling you, I really don't expect you to acknowledge that, either.

Tog
2006-Sep-08, 08:24 PM
Here is a date of origin I found for the term. No clue how valid it may be.

midnight sun 
the sun visible at midnight in mid-summer in arctic and antarctic regions.
[Origin: 1855–60]


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-08, 09:39 PM
midnight sun 
the sun visible at midnight in mid-summer in arctic and antarctic regions.
[Origin: 1855–60]It matches the OED's earliest quotation containing the phrase, which is dated 1857, and which might be of interest here.

1857 DUFFERIN Lett. High Lat. (ed. 3) 316 The nights were even brighter than the days, and afforded Fitz an opportunity of taking some photographic views by the light of a midnight sun.
Grant Hutchison

Robert Andersson
2006-Sep-08, 10:47 PM
Suppose that it is right that ancient Scandanavians invented this term (midnight sun), then why did they relate the sun with midnight if there experience had nothing to do with seeing the sun during a real night, or with seeing " a sunny night"?
Ok, take it from a Scandinavian then (although perhaps not ancient). We call it midnattssol, literally "midnight sun". See, midday is the time of day where the Sun is highest in the sky, thus midnight is when the sun is lowest, be it under or above the horizon. In this context, midnight is a time, not a condition.

Oh, and yes, I have seen the midnight sun, roughly at the arctic circle a few times, and no, the sky is not dark.

publius
2006-Sep-09, 12:15 AM
AZ,

I took two (digital) photos of the near sunset here in Publius Land. The first is showing the sun and the washout effect. The second is the same view but with my left hand blocking out Mr. Sun. You can see the huge difference in how the ambient brightness looks.

-Richard

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 01:14 AM
For the fourth time, don't call me that. You may call me Gillian. You may call me Gillianren. But don't call me Gilli or Gil or any variant thereof. I have asked you this repeatedly, and I'm really starting to lose patience on the subject.



That it does not refer to an event exclusive to the North Pole, since the first expeditions that actually reached the North Pole have done so only within the last hundred years, give or take, and the expression is centuries old at least. This is logic. However, since so is everything else we've been telling you, I really don't expect you to acknowledge that, either.

Do not lose patience, Gillianren.
Sorry.

Please google this title "reminder of Fairbanks area day light hours" and read "Finding the Midnight Sun".

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 01:23 AM
Ok, take it from a Scandinavian then (although perhaps not ancient). We call it midnattssol, literally "midnight sun". See, midday is the time of day where the Sun is highest in the sky, thus midnight is when the sun is lowest, be it under or above the horizon. In this context, midnight is a time, not a condition.

Oh, and yes, I have seen the midnight sun, roughly at the arctic circle a few times, and no, the sky is not dark.

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 01:30 AM
Attiyah Zahdeh, you started this thread like this:

Do you have any reliable information about the midnight Sun especially that you know via your personal experience and observations?
Please supply it here concisely without showing any reference or URL!In denial of the many personal experiences and observations reported to you, you are now posting the same URL over and over again.
Can you see how very strange that seems to the rest of us?

Grant Hutchison

publius
2006-Sep-09, 01:32 AM
AZ,

Did you not scroll down and look the other photos taken after they tooks the shots of the sun? It's freakin' *broad daylight*, as is evident in those photos where the couple doesn't have their backs to the sun! Right there in the set of photos you are using to try to prove your notion.

Did you see the two photos I took of the sunset here tonight, and how different it looks with the sun vs with my hand blocking the sun? It was broad daylight, just getting where I normally wouldn't wear sunglasses.

You've got, what three or more people in this thread who have seen this and you don't believe them. Why?

-Richard

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 01:33 AM
Insist all you want, it doesn't change the facts. At the Arctic Circle or above, on the Summer Solstice, the Sun is visible at local midnight and it is NOT as dark as any normal night.



We don't need to keep reading the same paragraph you have posted over and over again. It's a poetic description of an interesting event but, as others have posted, it doesn't even get the orientation of the sky correct.



Why is this significant? The Sun is low on the horizon and the sky would look very much like it does at sunrise or sunset.



You're quibbling over semantics and getting far too hung up on taking the phrase "midnight sun" too literally. Do you have an actual point to make? If you do then please state it succinctly. It's getting tiresome going over the same material over and over. Posters here have been very patient and have explained the concept of "midnight sun" so that anyone should be able to understand it.

If our explanations aren't good enough, then perhaps it's time to go to a library and educate yourself. You're not going to make much progress by trying to extract scientific understanding from poetry that is factually incorrect.

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude?

captain swoop
2006-Sep-09, 01:34 AM
the pictures on the URL you posted show that the sky is blue and there appears to be normaal daylight!!! so what point are you making??

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 02:03 AM
*Attiyah Zahdeh*, you started this thread like this:
In denial of the many personal experiences and observations reported to you, you are now posting the same URL over and over again.
Can you see how very strange that seems to the rest of us?
Why do you and some other members deny the expeience of those who saw the dusky night of the real midnight Sun?Because we've seen the midnight sun ourselves, and we know that you are misinterpreting what was written by the one person on the one website you've referenced. We can even tell from the pictures on the website (broad daylight!) that you're misunderstanding what he wrote.


Why did such persons travel hundreds of miles to take photographs for a real midnight Sun if it is possible to see it from everywhere within the Arctic Circle?They travelled rather less than one hundred miles (on admittedly bad roads, which is why it takes a couple of hours) from Fairbanks to Eagle Summit. That's a jaunt for an Alaskan resident: they drive that far to visit friends of an evening.
And they did so from the south: they were outside the Arctic Circle, and they drove to a road that got them a little closer to the Arctic Circle (within 70 miles). Anyone who lived inside the Arctic Circle would have stayed where they were. (Which would probably be in their beds, since the midnight sun is remarkable only to those of us who rarely see it.)

Grant Hutchison

Edit: Now I'm confused. Your post has disappeared while I was typing.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-09, 02:13 AM
Get it into your head!!!! the sky is blue, its daylight!!!!! aaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!
sorry I ma leaving this thread before I type something I will regret!!!


mutter mumble curse burble!!!!

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 02:14 AM
the pictures on the URL you posted show that the sky is blue and there appears to be normaal daylight!!! so what point are you making??

Where is the normal blue sky in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism?

Where is the normal daylight in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism?

Please show all the pictures on posted URL to a group of university students or to any group of people, then ask them whether these pictures were taken during a night period (dusky period) or were taken during a normal daytime with a normal blue sky.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 02:19 AM
Attiyah Zahdeh, the author of the website to which you link (http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html) writes, in his very first line:

Alaska (and that part of the world above the Arctic Circle) is known as the "Land of the Midnight Sun" for 24 hours of daylight during the Summer.(My bold.)
According to the only person you are prepared to believe on this matter, "Midnight Sun" = "24 hours of daylight".
What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

publius
2006-Sep-09, 02:26 AM
Edit: Now I'm confused. Your post has disappeared while I was typing.

Happened to me last night as I noticed several of AZ's posts appear and disappear. I think he deletes and retypes.

-Richard

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 02:30 AM
Attiyah Zahdeh, the author of the website to which you link (http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html) writes, in his very first line:
(My bold.)
According to the only person you are prepared to believe on this matter, "Land of the Midnight Sun" = "24 hours of daylight".
What do you conclude?

Grant Hutchison

He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.


The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance. It could be concluded that the skylight of the zenith sky was of a normal night.

Faultline
2006-Sep-09, 02:46 AM
He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.


The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance. It could be concluded that the skylight of the zenith sky was of a normal night.

When you take a picture of the sun, it is so incredibly bright that it drowns out all other light. This means that the sky surrounding the sun will appear dark in the photograph.

I know this because I have some experience with photography. I had to take astrophotos in Obervational Astronomy in college. Also, my dad was a police investigator, and often had to take photographs of crime scenes. I helped him take pictures and develop them the old-fashioned way in a darkroom with tubs of chemicals.

Bright lights in the field of view of a camera cause the surroundings to dim greatly. This is true even of my digital camera at home. Even true of my Mini-DV movie camera. When I point the camera at a lamp in my house, the room suddenly looks darker, even though to the naked eye there is no change in the light level of the room.

Try it yourself.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 02:48 AM
He means that the direct solar light as a part of the daylight is present 24 hours.Ah, you've spoken to him and established that by "daylight" he means "night with the sun up"? Because it seems like he might just mean "daylight", given that his down-sun photographs show daylight.


The picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism shows that the horizon sky is not of a normal perfect daylight. The skylight of the horizon shows a dusky appearance.The picture also contains six suns. You think it shows anything real about the appearances of the sky?

Grant Hutchison

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 02:53 AM
Happened to me last night as I noticed several of AZ's posts appear and disappear. I think he deletes and retypes.Ah, thanks.
Or just deletes, evidently.

Grant Hutchison

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 03:19 AM
Ah, thanks.
Or just deletes, evidently.

Grant Hutchison

I wanted to write experience instead of expeience.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 03:36 AM
"a real midnight Sun"!

What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you?

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle?

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-09, 03:46 AM
"a real midnight Sun"!

What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you?

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle?

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

It means that the sun is above the horizon continuously for at least 24 hours, and (aside from clouds) the sky is blue. Just like any other time the sun is up.

Edited to add:

Did you read what was written at the link you keep pointing to (http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html)?

Alaska (and that part of the world above the Arctic Circle) is known as the "Land of the Midnight Sun" for 24 hours of daylight during the Summer. 'Midnight' sun really means that the sun is up at midnight, but reaches its lowest point after 1:30 am. Perhaps the "All-Night Sun" is better.

Does "All-night Sun" or "24 hour+ sun" make it any clearer?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 03:58 AM
It means that the sun is above the horizon continuously for at least 24 hours, and (aside from clouds) the sky is blue. Just like any other time the sun is up.

Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!

When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

lek
2006-Sep-09, 04:06 AM
Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!

When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

He should not doubt neither, but doubt your definition of "night" . Night does not mean darkness, it means time of day you can check from a clock.

btw, there is a "edit" button, no need to delete and rewrite posts...

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-09, 04:21 AM
Others talked about a dusky sky when they watched the midnight Sun!


Yes. What do you think "dusky sky" means? In this case, he had made it just far enough north for the sun to stay above the horizon. What does the sky look like when the sun is just above the horizon?

As I said before, "dusky" is not the same as the term "dusk." "Dusky" is a commonly used modifier. The normal sky when the sun is just above the horizon can be described as "dusky." It is not black. It is blue.



When you hear a person saying :"I want to search for a real midnight Sun", do you consider that he is doubtful about the Sun or about the night?

Neither. The use of the term has been explained to you repeatedly. If you refuse to accept it, that's your problem.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 04:46 AM
He should not doubt neither, but doubt your definition of "night" . Night does not mean darkness, it means time of day you can check from a clock.

btw, there is a "edit" button, no need to delete and rewrite posts...

Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

lek
2006-Sep-09, 04:57 AM
Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

Sure i'll just go get my crystal ball and contact my ancestors...
Meanwhile, arguing about brightness during midnight sun is quite pointless, there is nothing special about it, the nights near solstice are bright enough to read a book outside even here several hundred kilometers below arctic circle.

How dark is it where you live 5 minutes after sunset? If sun doesn't get lower than that whole "night", do you think it should be darker here?

Gillianren
2006-Sep-09, 05:13 AM
Do not lose patience, Gillianren.
Sorry.

Thank you for calling me the proper name. Do you understand how frustrating it is to explain the same thing over and over again? Yes? Now, picture how annoying it must be when that thing is your name.


Please google this title "reminder of Fairbanks area day light hours" and read "Finding the Midnight Sun".

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian?

That you're wrong, the same thing I've concluded from my greater-than-yours understanding of the English language.

Okay. You've had the phenomenon described to you by your own cited website. You've had it described to you by people on this board who have observed it from farther north. You've had the etymology explained to you. You've had other translations than Arabic given to you. I'm curious. What, exactly, would it take for you to understand that "midnight sun" means "the sun is in the sky at 12:00 midnight"?

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-09, 07:00 AM
Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

Someone lives a bit north of the arctic circle, and every summer the sun stays up longer and longer, then one day, the sun doesn't go below the horizon for (at least) a day. It goes lower in the sky, but it is still in the sky in the middle of the night hours. Hence, "midnight sun." Also, in winter, the sunlit hours grow shorter and shorter, until one day, the sun doesn't quite come above the horizon, and you have a sunless day.

I don't know how much of this is a language issue, how much is not understanding the concept of the angle of the earth relative to the sun, and how much is simple refusal to face facts (despite everyone telling you the same thing) but this couldn't be much more straightforward to me.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-09, 08:45 AM
Your banging your heads, Attiyah thinks the blue sky is a seperate issue to the light from the su. This is an attempt to support the position in the locked threads that (s)he is supposed to be working on supporting with some evidence and facts. If (s)he can establish that the sky is black even though the sun is 'up' at night time it will support the position in the other threads. I don't think there is any evidence you can give short of taking Attiyah to the Arctic that will have any influence.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-09, 12:17 PM
Summary so far:
Eye-witness accounts from inside the Arctic Circle, or other than at the solstice, don't count.
Eye-witness accounts from ~25km and ~5km from the Arctic Circle on the solstice don't count.
An eyewitness account from >100km from the Arctic Circle on the day of the solstice does count.
This latter account contains the word "dusky", which is interpreted to mean "midnight dark", even though it also contains the phrase "24-hour daylight".
Only photographs taken towards the sun are significant, since they show a dark sky. Photographs taken looking away from the sun, which show a normal level of daylight, don't count.
Our explanation of the difference in apparent light level in these two classes of picture (as a result of differences in exposure) doesn't count.
The original meaning of the phrase "midnight sun" cannot possibly be known, since it was coined by people now dead who left no records: therefore, we are free to imagine that it was intended to mean "the sun out and the sky dark", in the teeth of current dictionary definitions.

I fear captain swoop may be right.
But, Attiyah Zahdeh, can you see what a complete shambles of an argument that is? It rests on nothing but one cherry-picked datum and special pleading.

Grant Hutchison

Nereid
2006-Sep-09, 01:35 PM
There are several ways to quickly get a lot of eyewitness accounts of the appearance of the sky, at midnight, on the solstice, on the Artic Circle - just get a list of towns that are near it (in Alaska, Canada, Greenland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia), find some local tour operators, and make some phone calls.

There might even be places with a line on the ground, like the zero meridian at Greenwich Observatory (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conMediaFile.5374), marking the Artic Circle, to which the tour operators take tourists, at midnight, on the solstice.

Instead of phone calls, how about finding an internet discussion forum that is highly likely to have people who've stood on the Artic Circle, at midnight, on the solstice? For example, there must be hundreds of people in Rovaniemi (http://www.rovaniemi.fi/?deptid=3707)* who've done this (and, being Finns, will likely also write in English, and join discussion fora).

*This is just the first 'big' town I found, looking at a map, that's very close to the Artic Circle.

Essan
2006-Sep-09, 01:55 PM
In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun?

The only doubt comes form you misunderstanding of the term midnight. Midnight refers to a specific time on the clock - 00:00z. Just as Midday mean 12:00z.

In midwinter in the arctic circle, it is dark at 12:00z. In midsummer at 00:00z it is light.

That's all you need to understand. And whilst I've not experienced either circumsytance myself, I know many who have - and, indeed, have numerous times seen the latter on TV.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 03:43 PM
The only doubt comes form you misunderstanding of the term midnight. Midnight refers to a specific time on the clock - 00:00z. Just as Midday mean 12:00z.

In midwinter in the arctic circle, it is dark at 12:00z. In midsummer at 00:00z it is light.

That's all you need to understand. And whilst I've not experienced either circumsytance myself, I know many who have - and, indeed, have numerous times seen the latter on TV.

Certainly, the Scandanavians who invented the term "midnight Sun" centuries ago refuse your understanding.

Hamlet
2006-Sep-09, 03:50 PM
Please, if possible, ask the ancient Scandinavians who coined the term of "midnight Sun" long before the appearance of the new definitions of time.!

I just talked to the "ancient Scandinavians" and they said our explanations have been correct. Also, they really wish you'd stop dragging them into your arguments. :wall:

JMV
2006-Sep-09, 04:24 PM
Instead of phone calls, how about finding an internet discussion forum that is highly likely to have people who've stood on the Artic Circle, at midnight, on the solstice? For example, there must be hundreds of people in Rovaniemi (http://www.rovaniemi.fi/?deptid=3707)* who've done this (and, being Finns, will likely also write in English, and join discussion fora).
My home town.

There might even be places with a line on the ground, like the zero meridian at Greenwich Observatory (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conMediaFile.5374), marking the Artic Circle, to which the tour operators take tourists, at midnight, on the solstice.
Sure there is a line painted on the ground at Santa Claus' Village (http://www.santaclausvillage.info/eng/arctic_circle.htm) that tourists can jump across, but it's not really accurate. The real Arctic Circle goes about a kilometer north of that. As I've understood it, it crosses the runway at Rovaniemi airport (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=66.561104,25.84156&spn=0.065687,0.2314&om=1) and moves a couple of hundred meters north and south every few decades due to nutation.

Nereid
2006-Sep-09, 04:51 PM
My home town.

Sure there is a line painted on the ground at Santa Claus' Village (http://www.santaclausvillage.info/eng/arctic_circle.htm) that tourists can jump across, but it's not really accurate. The real Arctic Circle goes about a kilometer north of that. As I've understood it, it crosses the runway at Rovaniemi airport (http://www.google.com/maphp?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=66.561104,25.84156&spn=0.065687,0.2314&om=1) and moves a couple of hundred meters north and south every few decades due to nutation.I notice that earlier in this thread you wrote about your personal experience of the midnight sun JMV, including that on the summer solstice.

Do you know if there's a tourist thing in Rovaniemi, or nearby, where people (tourists) go, at midnight, on the summer solstice, and stand on (or near) the (possibly not) Arctic Circle?

It's likely so little a thing that the locals could care less (unless there were some cultural or religious festival/occassion?), but the kind of thing that an entrepreneur would at least try, possibly an American ex-pat.

Or maybe we could ask our US BAUT members if they know of any touristy thing like this, near an Alaskan town?

And I guess we could also ask Attiyah Zahdeh to say how many eye-witness accounts he would consider the minimum acceptable (to provide a satisfactory answer) - 3? 30? 300? 3,000??

antoniseb
2006-Sep-09, 05:19 PM
Attiyah Zahdeh is very interested in the midnight Sun. Several of us have experiences with seeing it from near the Artic Circle, but he should really try to see it from closer to the pole. Try, for example, taking a June vacation in Hammerfest Norway, or getting a job that would put you in Antartica in December. See the midnight Sun so that it doesn't look like Sunset, but rather is five or more degrees above the horizon.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-09, 05:44 PM
Attiyah Zahdeh is very interested in the midnight Sun....What ever gave you that idea? http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

Mak (just passing through)

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/froehlich/g020.gif

JMV
2006-Sep-09, 06:03 PM
Do you know if there's a tourist thing in Rovaniemi, or nearby, where people (tourists) go, at midnight, on the summer solstice, and stand on (or near) the (possibly not) Arctic Circle?

It's likely so little a thing that the locals could care less (unless there were some cultural or religious festival/occassion?), but the kind of thing that an entrepreneur would at least try, possibly an American ex-pat.

There have been such occasions for tourists on top of a local hill Ounasvaara where you can see the sun quite nicely. The Santa Claus' Village and the airport and are much lower and in a bit of a shade, so there isn't much to see from there.

publius
2006-Sep-09, 07:47 PM
I believe the only way we're going to convince AZ is to take him to the arctic circle and let him see for himself. But then he might not even believe his "lyin' eyes" as a husband whose wife caught him with another woman. "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"

I googled and wiki'ed on this, and I think we've got a case of a meaning lost in translation that encourages AZ's own pet theory that the "skylight" is caused by something different than the sunlight, hence he wants to believe it is possible to have a dark sky with the sun visible. The translation problem just encourages that.

I don't know what the modern practice is, but from what I recently read, Hebrew and Arabic practice consided the day to be from dawn to dusk, with night being the period in between. A day starts at first light and ends at last light. It was said the Romans did this as well, and divide that *variable* period of daylight into 12 hours. The length of an hour varied with the seasons. By this definition, the day would never end during "midnight sun" times. :)

So apparently due to the above and maybe stronger local peculiarity, to AZ "night" always means darkness. So "midnight sun", when translated rather literally, must mean "sun visible in the middle of the dark". Add the fact that this reinforces his idea about daylight, and this is why he is being so obstinate. To us English speakers, and I'm sure most Europeans, "midnight" means the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc. And so midnight sun, obviously to us, means still up at the start of the next day. But AZ insists upon his notion of day and night, defined by his cultural definitions.

-Richard

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-09, 08:28 PM
I believe the only way we're going to convince AZ is to take him to the arctic circle and let him see for himself. But then he might not even believe his "lyin' eyes" as a husband whose wife caught him with another woman. "Who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?"

I googled and wiki'ed on this, and I think we've got a case of a meaning lost in translation that encourages AZ's own pet theory that the "skylight" is caused by something different than the sunlight, hence he wants to believe it is possible to have a dark sky with the sun visible. The translation problem just encourages that.

I don't know what the modern practice is, but from what I recently read, Hebrew and Arabic practice consided the day to be from dawn to dusk, with night being the period in between. A day starts at first light and ends at last light. It was said the Romans did this as well, and divide that *variable* period of daylight into 12 hours. The length of an hour varied with the seasons. By this definition, the day would never end during "midnight sun" times. :)

So apparently due to the above and maybe stronger local peculiarity, to AZ "night" always means darkness. So "midnight sun", when translated rather literally, must mean "sun visible in the middle of the dark". Add the fact that this reinforces his idea about daylight, and this is why he is being so obstinate. To us English speakers, and I'm sure most Europeans, "midnight" means the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc. And so midnight sun, obviously to us, means still up at the start of the next day. But AZ insists upon his notion of day and night, defined by his cultural definitions.

-Richard

Hello Publius,
I can consider that to the ancient Scandanavians who coined the "midnight Sun" term, "night" always meant darkness. So "midnight sun", when was uttered orally, had been understood by them as "sun visible in the middle of the dark".
Please, deny this.

Can you prove that their definition of the day was different from that of the pre-Islam Arabs?
Can you prove that to the ancient Scandinavians "midnight" meant the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc.?

01101001
2006-Sep-09, 08:38 PM
Please, deny this.

Moderator(s), can we end this Q&A charade? This thread has little to do with the forum description:


Questions and Answers (12 Viewing)
Got a space/astronomy question? Get it answered here.

publius
2006-Sep-09, 08:54 PM
Hello Publius,
I can consider that to the ancient Scandanavians who coined the "midnight Sun" term, "night" always meant darkness. So "midnight sun", when was uttered orally, had been understood by them as "sun visible in the middle of the dark".
Please, deny this.

Can you prove that their definition of the day was different from that of the pre-Islam Arabs?
Can you prove that to the ancient Scandinavians "midnight" meant the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc.?

AZ,

You are the one who is denying what everyone is telling you and denying eyewitness accounts of the phenomenon. I think the burden of the proof is on you to show that somewhere at sometime, somebody actually saw the real sun in a dark sky. What is called the "midnight sun" would perhaps translate better if called "24 hour day", "day without night", "day when the sun never sets", etc, etc.

The phenomenon is no different today than it was thousands, even millions of years ago. Go far enough toward a pole, and there will be periods when the sun never sets for a least one solar day. People used their language to describe this.

This reminds me of what a friend of mine called "Zabel debugging" after the (hardware) debugging technique of one Dr. Zabel who he used to work with. When something wasn't working, Zabel would spend hours *thinking* about what could be wrong, and constructing theories and scenarios, rather than actually getting some meters or other instrumentation and actually seeing what actually wasn't working right, thus greatly narrowing down the possibilities. Zabel sort of thought of that as cheating, really, and drove everyone nuts.

So you are "Zabeling" this whole "midnight sun" phenomenon. You can easily take measurements so to speak, actually see what it is, but you want to sit and think about the precise meanings of words used to describe the phenomenon.

What you would consider the English "midday night" or "night at noon" to mean to describe the opposite phenomenon in winter when the sun never rises?

-Richard

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-09, 08:58 PM
Hello Publius,
I can consider that to the ancient Scandanavians who coined the "midnight Sun" term, "night" always meant darkness. So "midnight sun", when was uttered orally, had been understood by them as "sun visible in the middle of the dark".
Please, deny this.


I will deny that anyone living anywhere near the Arctic circle would have your misconception. I lived in Anchorage, Alaska when I was young. Even though well south of the Arctic circle, in summer the sun went under the horizon for just a very short time, and it was quite light in the middle of the night. The sun was up until very late into the night and rose very early in the night. And the sky was blue.

In the middle of the winter, the sun barely came above the horizon, and the sunlit hours were very short.

Also, I occasionally saw the Northern Lights (aurora). They weren't common, they were dim, and were only seen when it was very, very dark.

publius
2006-Sep-09, 09:09 PM
AZ,

Here's a video of the Scandanavian midnight sun: Rather crude and simple, but I found one:

http://matti.pohjonen.org/koto/?p=337

Read up on the solstice festivals, an ancient tradition, of partying all the daylight night during the night of the midnight sun.

ETA:

Here's a link selling DVD's of the Northern lights. Apparently getting quality footage of the auroral displays is hard to do, and these guys did it and are bragging about it.

http://www.northernlightlive.com/


Thousands of people travel to the Arctic every year to experience the Northern Lights. And because the Arctic countries have 24 hour daylight during summer travelers have to go there during winter if they want to see the Auroras.

To give you an idea of how much daylight there is during the summers we have something called "The Midnight Sun" in june each year. The sun doesn't set and you can actually see it just above the horizon at midnight.

So if you want to experience the Auroras you'll have to be there between the period from September through March. And when you get there you'll have to travel deep into the interior away from the light pollution, especially the city lights because they can dramatically reduce visibility.

Traveling to the Arctic countries is very expensive. It's bone chilling cold during winter and dark almost 24 hours and on top of that there's no guarantee that you'll see the Northern Lights during your stay.

How much daylight we have during summers........sun actually doesn't set and you can see it over the horizon at midnight. "Midnight" means time, anti-noon. Always has in this context by everyone who actually lived in the Lands of the Midnight Sun.

-Richard




-Richard

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-09, 09:23 PM
Moderator(s), can we end this Q&A charade? This thread has little to do with the forum description:

I think it did - he did have his questions answered, and they were astronomy related. He's been given explanations and references, as well as eye witness accounts and methods described where he could get many more. This subject isn't at all esotoric (like, say, dark matter) and there is no debate whatsoever. It is quite straightforward.

But at this point, I don't think much more can be gained in this thread, since Attiyah simply denies anything that disagrees with his preconceived notions.

Unless Attiyah has some new questions on the subject (not variations of questions asked repeatedly) I'd agree it is time to close the thread.

01101001
2006-Sep-09, 11:52 PM
But at this point, I don't think much more can be gained in this thread, since Attiyah simply denies anything that disagrees with his preconceived notions.


And that's where it falls off the Q&A track. If the questioner is not actually asking an earnest question, but is just spouting words in the form of a question, in search not of answers but only some reply that matches erroneous preconceptions, then that is not Q&A.

That is Posing and Rejecting. That is Quizzing and Denying. That is advocacy in sheep's clothing. That's ATM in the wrong forum.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-10, 12:22 AM
Even as far south as I am in North Yorkshire our summer nighrts are only realy dark for a few hours, the last light doesn't leave the sky till midnight and its getting light in the eastern sky by 4 am

Faultline
2006-Sep-10, 03:44 AM
Attiyah, even when the sun is slightly below the horizon shortly after sunset, and it is no longer visible in the sky, the sky is still brightly lit by its indirect scattering of its light in the atmosphere.

The sky doesn't turn dark the instant the sun touches or slips behind the horizon. I'm not sure how many degrees the sun must be below the horizon for the sky to be considered dark as night, but it doesn't ever get that low in the sky in summer when you are standing at or above the arctic circle.

I even have some pictures that I took myself after sunset here in Alabama, in the United States. I can provide longitude and latitude and approximate time of day with the photos if you want. Will it help to emphasize my point that the sky is still lit by indirect sunlight when the sun isn't visible?


Therefore, you never get a night sky in summertime above the arctic circle.

That is what I conclude.

Arneb
2006-Sep-10, 02:06 PM
I'm not sure how many degrees the sun must be below the horizon for the sky to be considered dark as night.

You are, of course, right in every point of your last post, faultline. As to the above snip:

There is a classification system for this: Civil twilight, the Sun is between the horizon and 6&#176; below it: nautical twilight, the Sun is between 6 and 12&#176; below the horizon; astronomical twilight, the Sun is between 12 and 18&#176; below the horizon; astonomical night is any situation where the Sun is more than 18&#176; below the horizon. AFAIK, the classification means (approximately) that during civil twilight one can read without lighting; during nautical not all stars used for navigation are yet visible; and during astonomical twilight the horizon, barring light pollution/zodiacal light/moonshine is not yet uniformly dark in all directions. This is the case when the Sun is more than 18 &#176; below the horizon.

At geographical locations of latitude 48&#176; (running 1&#176; Southof the straight bit of the US-Canada border; through Brittany, the Northern edge the Alps; Mngolia; Sachalin island) or higher, there are days around the summer solstice when no astronomical night takes place (This is called midnight twilight: The Sun is not visible, but the Sky is not completely dark for the entire duration of the -civil - night), progressively more so as you reach higher latitudes.

Midnight Sun would occur only on the summer solstice precisely at the Arctic circle if
a) the Sun was a point source of light and
b) the Earth had no atmophere.
Since neither is the case, the zone where the Sun is actually visible above or at the horizon in the period around summer solstice extends a bit to the South (I don't know how much). Reverse North/South if living down under.

However, I, like others, have no hope that this will actually interest Attiyah Zahdeh.

Fortis
2006-Sep-10, 11:04 PM
Attiyah, what is the end point for this query? There is a suspicion that you will keep at it until one of us says something like "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..." Is that correct? If so, I have a very bad feeling about this. ;)

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-11, 03:47 AM
Attiyah, what is the end point for this query? There is a suspicion that you will keep at it until one of us says something like "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..." Is that correct? If so, I have a very bad feeling about this. ;)
Hello Forbis,
I wonder why the BAUT's members who posted replies relevant to this thread want AZ to believe them and disbelieve the writers of the articles at these links:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html
It is possible for such members to ask the writers themselves about their accounts.
Please ask them:
What did you mean by " a real midnight Sun"?
What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?

======
Hello Forbis,
Does it seem to you that AZ believes or disbelieves those BAUT's members?
Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."?

publius
2006-Sep-11, 04:05 AM
AZ,

There is nothing those writers are saying that contradicts anything we have said about the phenomenon, AZ. It's is only your misinterpretation of both words and images that is in contradiction.

Why don't you e-mail one of the guys who took those photos.

http://www.eaglestation.com/

Scroll down to the bottom and you'll find the e-mail address of the fellow who took some of the photos. Ask him about the "midnight sun". Ask him to describe it.

Do you think we're all lying to you, AZ? Do you think we're trying to cover up something?

-Richard

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-11, 04:40 AM
http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html
It is possible for such members to ask the writers themselves about their accounts.
Please ask them:
What did you mean by " a real midnight Sun"?
What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?


From here:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/me.html

is Mary's email address:

maryhopson@gci.net

Why don't you ask her yourself? Ask her specifically if she means the sky is black, even with the sun shining in the sky. Let her know that english is not your first language, and don't be surprised if she has some difficulty understanding your questions, so be very clear exactly what you are proposing. Also, you might want to rethink some of those questions. I wouldn't know how to answer "What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you?" since I have no idea what you are asking.

Also ask her if you can post her response publicly on BAUT. We'd like to see it.



Does it seem to you that AZ believes or disbelieves those BAUT's members?


Clearly, you are ignoring the facts in this case because they disagree with your preconceptions.



Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."?

Well, let's ask them:

Are there any BAUT members (aside from AZ) that think that the (clear) sky, on earth, will be black at any time when the sun is visible in the sky?

cjl
2006-Sep-11, 04:46 AM
Hmm...

Not here...

captain swoop
2006-Sep-11, 08:58 AM
nope

Tog
2006-Sep-11, 09:06 AM
Are there any BAUT members (aside from AZ) that think that the (clear) sky, on earth, will be black at any time when the sun is visible in the sky?

Nope. I don't see any reason why that one part of the sky would be any different than every other part, no matter what the date might be.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-11, 10:33 AM
Heck, I don't even think a cloudy sky on Earth would be black at any time when the sun is above the horizon, or even a short way below it. We call stormclouds black, but they're really only dark grey, nowhere near to as black as the sky when the sun is substantially below the horizon.

Faultline
2006-Sep-11, 12:12 PM
Heck, I don't even think a cloudy sky on Earth would be black at any time when the sun is above the horizon, or even a short way below it. We call stormclouds black, but they're really only dark grey, nowhere near to as black as the sky when the sun is substantially below the horizon.

To be fair, I've seen some (brief) storms that were so thick and dark as to trigger the light sensors in the street lamps around my house. But it only lasted for minutes. It was never black as night, but it was too dark to read by.

In any case, Attiyah must think we're all lying. Attiyah, you have several eyewitnesses here who have been at or above the arctic circle and seen 24 hours of daylight.

They conclude that lighting conditions are no different than any where else on earth when the sun is above the horizon.

Why do you choose to believe others and not us?

captain swoop
2006-Sep-11, 03:24 PM
because you are giving the wrong answer of course.

Nereid
2006-Sep-11, 08:36 PM
Here are the questions Attiyah Zahdeh has asked, in this thread, and my assessment as to whether any astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, or space science aspects* of these questions has been answered (post numbers in curly brackets).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{1} Do you have any reliable information about the midnight Sun especially that you know via your personal experience and observations? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{6} (1) How does the midnight Sun really appear? Answered.
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun? Answered.
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? Answered.
In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it? Answered.
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun? Answered. Answered.
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night? Answered.
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{11} want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night (of 21th of June , Summer Solstice) at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle.

(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear? Answered.
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun? Answered.
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? Answered.
In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it? Answered.
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun? Answered.
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night? Answered.
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
An extra question:
(7) What about the colors at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{19} From where did the term "midnight Sun" come? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{23} Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Why did they use the word "midnight"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{25}{26}
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

Why did they use the word "midnight"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{29} How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{32} how many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice so as to be sure that the term "midnight Sun" has nothing to do with the darkness of the real night or at least with the real dusk? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{48} Do you agree that the dusk is a real part of the night? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{59} What do you conclude, Grant? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{81} Why do such members interfere in the moderaters' affairs?
= = = = = = = = = = =
{82} Do you know who were the first to use the term "midnight sun"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

Why did they use it? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{92} Suppose that it is right that ancient Scandanavians invented this term (midnight sun), then why did they relate the sun with midnight if there experience had nothing to do with seeing the sun during a real night, or with seeing " a sunny night"? Cannot be
answered? (and out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =
{94} What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =
{96} Do you think that the English translation for the original term was accurate? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{99} Have you ever read the coming statement about the midnight Sun at Fairbanks? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{105} Accordingly, why the sun that is visible at at 00:00 could not be visible during a period of darkness? Answered.

Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness? Answered.

Have you ever been on the Eagle Summit, Fairbanks at or around 00:00 on 21st of June? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{117} What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{121} What do you conclude? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{125} Where is the normal blue sky in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism? Answered.

Where is the normal daylight in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{133} What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you? Answered.

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle? Answered.

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{154} Can you prove that their definition of the day was different from that of the pre-Islam Arabs? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Can you prove that to the ancient Scandinavians "midnight" meant the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc.? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{165}
What did you mean by " a real midnight Sun"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
[...]
Does it seem to you that AZ believes or disbelieves those BAUT's members? Not Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."? Not Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =

Did I miss any questions?

Did I mis-state the status of the answers to any questions?

Unless there are new questions, pertinent to BAUT's Q&A section, or errors or amendments that need to be made in my summary (above), I think this thread has run its course. Accordingly, I will close it tomorrow (with the usual caveats).

*That is the scope of BAUT; other aspects, no matter how interesting, are beyond the scope of this section of BAUT.

AGN Fuel
2006-Sep-12, 12:19 AM
The only comment that I might add is that Attiyah Zahdeh seems to be concentrating on the use of the word "dusky" and that s/he seems to have misinterpreted the word to mean 'dark'. It does not - it means tending toward dark, dim, or 'unbright' for want of a better word (and one likely to send Gillianren into apoplexy, so I apologise now!). No-one could use the word 'dusky' to describe a midnight sky at tropical latitudes, for example, which is I believe what Attiyah Zahbeh is trying to imply.

My personal experience is not at so great a latitude as many others who have posted here, but I can confirm (having done it) that in mid-June in the Shetland Islands (north of Scotland, but well south of the Arctic Circle), it is still easily light enough at 11:00pm to go for a walk without any form of artificial lighting.


(Edited for clarification).

Fortis
2006-Sep-12, 12:20 AM
Hello Forbis,
I wonder why the BAUT's members who posted replies relevant to this thread want AZ to believe them and disbelieve the writers of the articles at these links:

http://www.turtlepuddle.org/bio/summer/solstice.html

http://www.geocities.com/abaccola/midnightsun.html

Both of these pages appear to be straightforward accounts of people observing the Sun above (or close to) the horizon at a time when at lower latitudes it would be dark. The photographs look pretty much like what you would expect for the Sun elevations.


It is possible for such members to ask the writers themselves about their accounts.
Please ask them:
What did you mean by " a real midnight Sun"?
What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?

These are your questions. Wouldn't it be simpler for you to ask them these questions, perhaps with a request that you can quote them on this thread?


======
Hello Forbis,
Does it seem to you that AZ believes or disbelieves those BAUT's members?
Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."?
I find it unlikely that you would have much support, but let's try a poll to find out. I have created one here (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46766).

Gillianren
2006-Sep-12, 01:14 AM
{94} What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =

{117} What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope).

I thought I answered both of these, but for the record:

If, as seems highly evident, the coinage of the term "midnight sun" predates polar exploration, it means that it is a phenomenon that is not exclusive to the Poles themselves.

I conclude that AZ has a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept "midnight sun" that is at odds with his/her own sources.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-12, 06:49 AM
Here are the questions Attiyah Zahdeh has asked, in this thread, and my assessment as to whether any astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, or space science aspects* of these questions has been answered (post numbers in curly brackets).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{1} Do you have any reliable information about the midnight Sun especially that you know via your personal experience and observations? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{6} (1) How does the midnight Sun really appear? Answered.
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun? Answered.
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? Answered.
In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it? Answered.
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun? Answered. Answered.
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night? Answered.
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{11} want the answers to be restricted to the night of the midnight Sun for a specific night (of 21th of June , Summer Solstice) at a particular latitude that is: the Arctic Circle.

(1) How does the midnight Sun really appear? Answered.
(2) Do people see the stars and planets during the night of the midnight sun? Answered.
(3) Is the night of the midnight Sun real? Answered.
In other words, is there a real darknees along the night of the midnight Sun or during any part of it? Answered.
(4) How long is the night of the midnight Sun? Answered.
(5) What about the behavior of the birds and animals at such a night? Answered.
(6) What about the auroras at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
An extra question:
(7) What about the colors at the time of the midnight Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{19} From where did the term "midnight Sun" come? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{23} Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Why did they use the word "midnight"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{25}{26}
Who did coin the name "midnight Sun" and when? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

Why did they use the word "midnight"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{29} How many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{32} how many times did you watch the "midnight Sun" at the Arctic Circle at Summer Solstice so as to be sure that the term "midnight Sun" has nothing to do with the darkness of the real night or at least with the real dusk? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{48} Do you agree that the dusk is a real part of the night? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{59} What do you conclude, Grant? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{81} Why do such members interfere in the moderaters' affairs?
= = = = = = = = = = =
{82} Do you know who were the first to use the term "midnight sun"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).

Why did they use it? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{92} Suppose that it is right that ancient Scandanavians invented this term (midnight sun), then why did they relate the sun with midnight if there experience had nothing to do with seeing the sun during a real night, or with seeing " a sunny night"? Cannot be
answered? (and out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =
{94} What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =
{96} Do you think that the English translation for the original term was accurate? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{99} Have you ever read the coming statement about the midnight Sun at Fairbanks? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{105} Accordingly, why the sun that is visible at at 00:00 could not be visible during a period of darkness? Answered.

Why do you refuse to accept that, at the Arctic Circle on 21st of June, the time 00:00 (twelve at night" or "twelve midnight") is a period of darkness? Answered.

Have you ever been on the Eagle Summit, Fairbanks at or around 00:00 on 21st of June? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{117} What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{121} What do you conclude? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{125} Where is the normal blue sky in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism? Answered.

Where is the normal daylight in the picture from the State of Alaska Division of Tourism? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{133} What does ""a real midnight Sun" mean to you? Answered.

Does it mean a real Sun at midnight, or a real night which the Sun appears during it even as late as at its middle? Answered.

In using "a real midnight Sun", does the doubt concern the night or the Sun? Answered.
= = = = = = = = = = =
{154} Can you prove that their definition of the day was different from that of the pre-Islam Arabs? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Can you prove that to the ancient Scandinavians "midnight" meant the "anti-noon", 12 hours after noon, the beginning of the next calendar day, etc.? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =
{165}
What did you mean by " a real midnight Sun"? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
What did unreal midnight Sun mean to you? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night? Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
[...]
Does it seem to you that AZ believes or disbelieves those BAUT's members? Not Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."? Not Answered (but out of BAUT scope).
= = = = = = = = = = =

Did I miss any questions?

Did I mis-state the status of the answers to any questions?

Unless there are new questions, pertinent to BAUT's Q&A section, or errors or amendments that need to be made in my summary (above), I think this thread has run its course. Accordingly, I will close it tomorrow (with the usual caveats).

*That is the scope of BAUT; other aspects, no matter how interesting, are beyond the scope of this section of BAUT.
Hello Nereid,
I hope that it will be possible not to close this thread until 16 of September.
(1) I wait the answers from both Mary Hopson (maryhopson@gci.net) and Bill Hutchison (bill@eaglestation.com). Van Rijn and Publius suggested to ask them directly.

Hello...,
I have a thread at :
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46553
( http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46553&page=6)
If possible, please read it and review the discussions especially the posts: 165-167.
You will conclude that your replies are greatly necessary. Please send me your answers as soon as possible.
What did you mean by a "real midnight Sun"? Did it mean seeing the Sun in a real night?
What did "a dusky sky" mean to you if not a sky that is as dark as at a normal night or at least as at an astronomical dusk?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?
Do you agree that the term "midnight Sun" was originally invented by the ancient Scandinavians to mean that it happened to them that they saw a sunny midnight or the Sun whilst was shining in a dark sky?
Best Regards and Great Thanks
Attiyah


(2) There is a uggested poll by Fortis.
(3) As your comprehensive review shows, there are some questions not answerd yet.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-12, 09:45 AM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.
(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.
(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

Tobin Dax
2006-Sep-12, 10:13 AM
If, as seems highly evident, the coinage of the term "midnight sun" predates polar exploration, it means that it is a phenomenon that is not exclusive to the Poles themselves.

Not *just* the poles (~90 degrees latitude). The arctic/antarctic circles are where they are because they are the places on Earth where the sun will be exactly on the northern horizon twelve hours before/after noon on the day of the summer solstice. At higher latitudes, the sun has a higher altitude throughout the sky, including local midnight. It won't even set. There are plenty of places in the world that are inhabited and that can see this.

I know this has all been said before, and that AZ still has trouble with it. That doesn't mean it's not worth saying again.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-12, 10:22 AM
[QUOTE=AGN Fuel;823750

My personal experience is not at so great a latitude as many others who have posted here, but I can confirm (having done it) that in mid-June in the Shetland Islands (north of Scotland, but well south of the Arctic Circle), it is still easily light enough at 11:00pm to go for a walk without any form of artificial lighting.
[/QUOTE]


there was a piece on the BBC news earlier in the year from Shetland, they have a 'ceremonial' midnight cricket match on the solstice at midnight.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-12, 10:35 AM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.
(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.
(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

What you consider probable able isn't the point. What actualy happens directly contradicts what you think should happen.

That you are the only person who thinks this and it is directly contradicted by both eye witness accounts, photographs and mainstream scientific theory should tell you something.

If you were to travel north and stand directly on the Arctic Circle yourself at the time of the solstice and directly observe that it is a normal sunlit sky would you doubt your own eyes in favour of your theory?

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 10:43 AM
What you consider porbable isn't the point. What actualy happens directly contradicts what you think should happen.

That you are the only person who thinks this and it is directly contradicted by both eye witness accounts, photographs and mainstream scientific theory should tell you something.

If you were to travel north and stand directly on the Arctic Circle yourself at the time of the solstice and directly observe that it is a normal sunlit sky would you doubt your own eyes in gavour of your theory?Sounds familiar.

Note: Ah good, redundant post deleted.

Nereid
2006-Sep-12, 10:45 AM
{94} What do you conclude if the coinage of the "midnight Sun" predates the polar exploration? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope)
= = = = = = = = = = =

{117} What do you conclude from this article and the shown photographs, Gillian? Not Answered? (but out of BAUT scope).I thought I answered both of these, but for the record:

If, as seems highly evident, the coinage of the term "midnight sun" predates polar exploration, it means that it is a phenomenon that is not exclusive to the Poles themselves.

I conclude that AZ has a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept "midnight sun" that is at odds with his/her own sources.Apologies.

The answers are to be found in post #112 (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=821915&postcount=112) and post #140 (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=822219&postcount=140).

captain swoop
2006-Sep-12, 11:02 AM
Sounds familiar.

Note: Ah good, redundant post deleted.

yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting ity 3 times!

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 11:14 AM
yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting ity 3 times!Been there, done that, where's the darn t-shirt?

BTW, I was going to link this to the Wikipedia article on wet t-shirts, but the BAUT BB, being one of the last bastions of puritanism, would probably object. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

antoniseb
2006-Sep-12, 12:21 PM
yes, my internet connection had some kind of 'burp' and i ended up posting it 3 times!
I try not to post on BAUT much between 1000UT and 1040UT. The forum server goes through some kind of maintenance during that time.

Essan
2006-Sep-12, 02:21 PM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.

It is not certain at all. Quite the opposite. This is unfounded conjecture. I could argue with equal authority that the term was originally used by the Ancient Sumerians and originally meant a rather dull, cloudy day (ie the sun is in the sky but it's a bit dark)


(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.

Again, unfounded conjecture. See above.


(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

It would appear that the term means today the same as it always has - that the sun is visible on or above the horizon at midnight (00.00z)


(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.

Subject to cloud, the midnight sun is visible at all points within the arctic circle on the solstice. North of the arctic circle it is visible before and after the solstice - up to the N Pole itself where it is visible from spring to autumn equinox.


(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.

I fail to see how the number of sunspots has anything to do with this? The phenomena of a midnight sun is determined entirely by the axial tilt of the Earth.



(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.

See above


(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

What records?


PS I do appreciate I'm wasting my time as clearly no amount of arguing or evidence will convince AZ that he could possibly be wrong. But it's fuin trying :D

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-12, 03:10 PM
there was a piece on the BBC news earlier in the year from Shetland, they have a 'ceremonial' midnight cricket match on the solstice at midnight.

I saw this from a quick google, a 90 hour midnight sun golfing tournament. Here's the gallery:

http://www.merilappi.com/golf/eng_kuvagalleria.htm

and a page on it:

http://www.merilappi.com/golf/eng_turnausinfo.htm

Nereid
2006-Sep-12, 09:06 PM
Hello Nereid,
I hope that it will be possible not to close this thread until 16 of September.
(1) I wait the answers from both Mary Hopson (maryhopson@gci.net) and Bill Hutchison (bill@eaglestation.com). Van Rijn and Publius suggested to ask them directly.

Hello...,
I have a thread at :
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46553
( http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46553&page=6)
If possible, please read it and review the discussions especially the posts: 165-167.
You will conclude that your replies are greatly necessary. Please send me your answers as soon as possible.
What did you mean by a "real midnight Sun"? Did it mean seeing the Sun in a real night?
What did "a dusky sky" mean to you if not a sky that is as dark as at a normal night or at least as at an astronomical dusk?
Did you mean by "a dusky sky" that the sky was as dark as at any normal night?
Do you agree that the term "midnight Sun" was originally invented by the ancient Scandinavians to mean that it happened to them that they saw a sunny midnight or the Sun whilst was shining in a dark sky?
Best Regards and Great Thanks
Attiyah


(2) There is a uggested poll by Fortis.
(3) As your comprehensive review shows, there are some questions not answerd yet.However, as far as I can see, all questions that are within the scope of BAUT have been answered.

While an etymological, or historical linguistic, analysis - especially into the proto-Uralic, proto-Altaic, and proto-Eskimo-Aleut languages (or families) - might be interesting, with regard to how the phenomenon of the 'midnight sun' was encoded - it is way beyond the scope of this discussion forum (and, no doubt, beyond that of any BAUT member - I'm sure even Joseph Greenberg's stout heart would have quailed at the mere thought of such an analysis).

Nereid
2006-Sep-12, 09:23 PM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?We are way, way beyond the scope of BAUT here, but I don't doubt that should any linguist read this, they'd be yelling in frustration (or shaking their heads at the multiple, naive mistakes) - almost any decent textbook on linguistics will show you why this sort of reasoning is flawed.
(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00. Same as (1)
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.A good etymology, of "midnight sun", would certainly help, wrt "expanded and changed".

The "original meaning" (of "midnight sun") is a myth*.
(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.And certain Greek philosophers were supposed to have argued for days, in their nice comfy armchairs, about the number of teeth a horse has. I'm sure they could have argued for centuries, if the topic had been the number of teeth a horse once had.

Meanwhile, in the world of science - and BAUT is an internet discussion forum that is avowed scientific in its approach - some folk have actually 'been there, done that' (seen the midnight sun). You too can (in principle).

Or you can ask the (so the story goes) Arab trader who went outside the room, opened a horse's mouth, and counted the teeth - ask someone to go on your behalf, and report back.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.Well, there have been several solar minima during the lives of many of the residents of Rovaniemi (and, no doubt, many other towns near the Arctic Circle) - why not make some phone calls, and ask them?
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".See above.

*Unless it's a Swadesh word - "Sun is on the Swadesh list, but "midnight" is not.

Kristophe
2006-Sep-12, 11:15 PM
I just read through this entire thread, after noticing the related poll. From my view, publius hit the nail right on the head. This looks like a case a non-native English speaker misinterpreting the nuances of the English language, accidentally or otherwise, to lend support to a pet hypothesis. Another example of this happening (with French) was given. By the standards set forth by AZ, we should also be on the lookout for titanic witches somewhere in the rocky French interior.

Kristophe
2006-Sep-12, 11:24 PM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.

No more than you can show it to be as you say above. Your interpretation is not authorative.


(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.

This, again, is your own assertion, and it is one for which you have supplied no evidnce. For your own purposes, do you wish to tell us that "sun" originally meant a floating campfire, and so the phrase actually describes a burning balloon after sunset?


(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.

It seems far more likely that your concept of the original meaning of the phrase never existed. I'm sure most people at this board believe this, and will continue to do so until you can show otherwise.


(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

"I guess no one here has seen what I'm talking about. I assume that means that it's very rare, therefore I'm right."

captain swoop
2006-Sep-12, 11:32 PM
Did I say Cricket?? lol I meant to put Golf but I was listening to the radio talking about the upcoming tour of India!!

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-13, 01:38 AM
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed.


Only to you. To the rest of us, here, it's obvious that the concept has remained the same, as the physics and the event have not changed.



Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.


The meaning you ascribed to the term never existed. In fact, you're the first person I've ever heard suggest that meaning. I'm quite sure that the first people who coined the term "midnight sun" understood just as well as I do what is meant by the term.



(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.


Wait. Are you suggesting that not only would the sky be black with the sun in the sky, but that something will prevent the sun from being in the sky?

If so, then you apparently do have some fundamental misunderstandings of the geometry of the earth in relation to the sun. At the poles, such as at the south pole station, the sun rises and stays in the sky for six months straight, followed by six months of darkness.

Nereid
2006-Sep-13, 01:38 AM
Thanks everyone for the inputs, corrections, clarifications, etc.

If any BAUT member has anything new, of relevance to this thread, or any correction or clarification of significance, please PM me (or any other mod), and the thread will be re-opened.

Thread closed (per my post of 11 September (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=823617&postcount=174)).