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Fortis
2006-Sep-11, 11:57 PM
This follows on from Attiyah's thread in the Q&A, where he asked


Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."?
I thought it worth testing the water to see if AZ did have any support. :)

[mods: please move this to ATM if you feel that is more appropriate.]

Gillianren
2006-Sep-12, 05:52 AM
I'm going to bump this in the hopes that AZ begins to see.

hhEb09'1
2006-Sep-12, 06:36 AM
BTW, why not a link to the thread?

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 06:46 AM
BTW, why not a link to the thread?Well, if you read the first post, and if you voted in the poll, then you probably know the thread. But in the interest of completeness, here's the link (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=820026&postcount=1). For the uninitiated, be prepared to get on a merry-go-round.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 06:48 AM
I'm going to bump this in the hopes that AZ begins to see.It would appear he's already "seen", and is blind to any objective evidence that contradicts his "vision".

Amazing grace, that.

:wall:

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 06:57 AM
This follows on from Attiyah's thread in the Q&A, where he asked
Why do you exclude the possibility that some of BAUT's members may support AZ's idea that "the midnight sun is when the sun is in the sky but the sky is dark..."?I thought it worth testing the water to see if AZ did have any support. :)

[mods: please move this to ATM if you feel that is more appropriate.]Always beware when someone starts speaking of themselves in the third person proper. :think:

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-12, 07:04 AM
Always beware when someone starts speaking of themselves in the third person proper. :think:

This means not only the self-confidence, but that he is sure that he is capable of defending his ideas because they are "immune".

hhEb09'1
2006-Sep-12, 07:06 AM
Well, if you read the first post, and if you voted in the poll, then you probably know the thread. Sorry, missed it somehow! and now I'm really sorry I asked :)

SMEaton
2006-Sep-12, 07:10 AM
This means not only the self-confidence, but that he is sure that he is capable of defending his ideas because they are "immune".Funny! Quite a sense of humor there... very dry.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by Attiyah Zahdeh http://www.bautforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=823906#post823906)
This means not only the self-confidence, but that he is sure that he is capable of defending his ideas because they are "immune".
Funny! Quite a sense of humor there... very dry.Almost totally dessicated, much like a desert. Or Satie's eggs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryons_dess%C3%A9ch%C3%A9s)

Maksutov
2006-Sep-12, 08:18 AM
This means not only the self-confidence, but that he is sure that he is capable of defending his ideas because they are "immune"."Immune" to objective evidence? Well, ain't that a shame, you're the one to blame.*

BTW, in your opinion, did the Koran predict the speed of light?

*Fats Domino (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5259801)

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-12, 09:43 AM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.
(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.
(3) It seems that the original concept of the "midnight sun" is now expanded and changed. Its original meaning is no longer in the common usage. Instead, it now means the polar prolonged days wherein the sun does not set for 24 hours or more.
(4) As a natural phenomenon, and in its original meaning, the midnight sun is probable to occur at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. In other terms, I consider that it does not mean that the Sun is to be seen everywhere at the Arctic Circle or closely near it on every Summer Solstice. Instead, I consider that it is probable to see a sunny night at this site or that of the Arctic Circle or closely near it on the Summer Solstice. This implies that, according to its original meaning, the midnight sun might not be seen for long years.
(5) My idea is that the probability of seeing the "original" midnight sun increases during the solar minima. Therefore, I expect that the term "midnight sun" was originally invented during one of the distinguishable, historical solar minima such as the Maunder Minimum, or Forbish Minimum, to express witnessing a real sunny midnight or even a sunny night.
(6) I consider that it is probable to witness a sunny dark sky during a solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum even in polar lands higher than the Arctic Circle.
(7) I see that the historical astronomical records even from low latitudes are probable to have accounts of what I can describe as "midday sunny night sky".

neilzero
2006-Sep-12, 12:01 PM
Hi Attiyah: The black sky while the sun shines is the normal condition in the vacuum of space, but you have failed to explain how it could occur with an atmosphere which scatters the sunlight making the sky appear bright instead of dark.
I don't think the abundance or lack of sun spots, changes the way atmosphere scatters light by more than 1%.
The long ago observers, inside the Arctic circle, likely did not speak English so they all but surely, did not say "midnight sun". If they did, midnight sun would likely be translated to other languages to say the the sun was above the horizon 12 hours after the Sun was observed highest in the sky. In my opinion it is a real stretch to assume "midnight sun" refers to how the sky appears rather than about how (or when) the Sun appears. I suggest you abandon your hypothesis as improbable. My guess is some popular science writer (with little understanding of science) coined the word mindnight sun less than two centuries ago and he or she was not thinking that the sky was dark while the Sun was shinning. Neil

Tog
2006-Sep-12, 12:24 PM
Some Necessary Clarifying Notices:

(1) It is certain that some of the ancient natives of the polar region invented the term "midnight sun". Let us consider that they were Scandinavians. This means that the term "midnight sun" has an original meaning. I consider that the original meaning of the "midnight sun" was a sunny midnight or even a sunny night. In other words, it meant that they had witnessed the sun shining during the real darkness of the night.. Can others show that its original meaning was something else?.
I gave this some thought, and I'd hve to disagree that the term was first used by anyone of Scandanavian decent. The reason is that they grew up with this as a predictable part of the year for their area. It's like asking what a 45 mile per hour wind gust means. In some parts of the world it would mean a huge storm is coming. In Wyoming it means it's afternoon, in North Dakota, it means well... you're in North Dakota. There would be no real reason for the acient Scandanavias to come up with a term like midnight sun to describe that day. For them it would just be "that day" In Fact it wold probably have been a good place to set the new year.

I think it is far more likely that an American explorer who wandered up that way coined the term. The one reference I can find for a date on it is around 1850. I think this woud be consistent with the gold rush of 1849 in California. Alaska would have been the Land of the Midnight Sun, and used as a marketing ploy to get people to book passage and head north for the gold mining opportunities available in a land with 24 hour daylight in the summer.


(2) Due to the fact that the usage of the term "midnight sun" predates the polar exploration, the meaning of the "midnight" was the middle of the night or very late in the night. Therefore, as to the ancient Scandinavians, the word "night" meant darkness. As well as, "midnight' never meant to them the time when the clock said 00:00.
Again, the date I found said around 1850. This does not predate polar exploration. It may predate a trip to the Pole itself, but not to points above the Arctic Circle.

Even if there was a tern that meant a visible sun in darkness, it would still have to be explained HOW the physical properties of the atmosphere changed to allow that to happen.

Gruesome
2006-Sep-12, 01:40 PM
A few thoughts on The Land of the Midnight Sun...

The Land of the Midnight Sun is so named because the Land of 1000 Dances was taken by Cannibal and the Headhunters in 1965.

The Land of the Midnight Sun is transformed into the Land of the Midday Sun when the seasons change.

The Land of the Midnight Sun is a country with a great appreciation for theatre.

The Land of the Midnight Sun is considerably easier than a year ago.

The Land of the Midnight Sun is Shawn Chacon whose six wins for the Colorado Rockies last season puts him just 127 behind Schilling.


I think that about clears it up. Don't you??

V-GER
2006-Sep-12, 02:23 PM
Oh look! one person supported Attiyah's theory, I wonder who it could be.

Essan
2006-Sep-12, 02:41 PM
Doesn't really matter - if you know you're right then 6,500 million other people can be wrong!

korjik
2006-Sep-12, 06:29 PM
Reading this thread and the midnight sun thread have made me ask a question:

Maksutov, how do you do the bang head on wall smiley?

It will save me alot of wear and tear on my own head :)

Gillianren
2006-Sep-12, 08:06 PM
I gave this some thought, and I'd hve to disagree that the term was first used by anyone of Scandanavian decent. The reason is that they grew up with this as a predictable part of the year for their area. It's like asking what a 45 mile per hour wind gust means. In some parts of the world it would mean a huge storm is coming. In Wyoming it means it's afternoon, in North Dakota, it means well... you're in North Dakota. There would be no real reason for the acient Scandanavias to come up with a term like midnight sun to describe that day. For them it would just be "that day" In Fact it wold probably have been a good place to set the new year.

Well, yeah, but they still do have a word for "wind" in North Dakota. In fact, things you see all the time get named first.


I think it is far more likely that an American explorer who wandered up that way coined the term. The one reference I can find for a date on it is around 1850. I think this woud be consistent with the gold rush of 1849 in California. Alaska would have been the Land of the Midnight Sun, and used as a marketing ploy to get people to book passage and head north for the gold mining opportunities available in a land with 24 hour daylight in the summer.

Mmm. That's the first written record of the term in English. Apparently, the Russian term (which literally translates to "white night," I believe) is far older--because it's a phenomenon that they experienced a heck of a lot more often than the English. Etymology gets kind of complicated, because we don't reliably have the first use of things recorded. In some cases, it's suspected that things (admittedly more likely to be whole ballads, children's stories, etc.) were around for as much as several centuries before anyone wrote 'em down.

I'm also not sure how you think it ties in with the California gold rush, given that California is nowhere near north enough to experience it, and the Yukon gold rush is considerably later. However, there were fur traders operating in Canada who might've developed the term.

Tog
2006-Sep-12, 08:24 PM
Well, yeah, but they still do have a word for "wind" in North Dakota. In fact, things you see all the time get named first.
Well this was actually more of a satire post on my part. I do think that the term "Midnight Sun" is unlikely to have come from anyone that lived in the area. I'm sure they had a name for it, just as NoDak has a name for "wind". What I meant was that I think it's unlikely they would give it such a poetic name. In NoDak, a heavy wind is just wind. There is nothing all that special about it. In other places the same wind would have some other name that made is special. THis is explained well with the "white night" comment below.

Mmm. That's the first written record of the term in English. Apparently, the Russian term (which literally translates to "white night," I believe) is far older--because it's a phenomenon that they experienced a heck of a lot more often than the English. Etymology gets kind of complicated, because we don't reliably have the first use of things recorded. In some cases, it's suspected that things (admittedly more likely to be whole ballads, children's stories, etc.) were around for as much as several centuries before anyone wrote 'em down.

I'm also not sure how you think it ties in with the California gold rush, given that California is nowhere near north enough to experience it, and the Yukon gold rush is considerably later. However, there were fur traders operating in Canada who might've developed the term.

It was pretty much just made up as I typed it. The loose line of thought was that as the California mines dried up, word would come down that Alaska had a lot of gold. Combine that with mild summers and 24 hour light and it would be a good ad for the guys selling the tickets to the Yukon. Mainly I just wanted to show that there were other options which were at least equally plausible to the real sun at night meaning of "midnight sun" as proposed in the brevious posts.

If no one bit, I was going to explain it tonight when I got to work.:)

Robert Andersson
2006-Sep-12, 10:29 PM
There would be no real reason for the acient Scandanavias to come up with a term like midnight sun to describe that day. For them it would just be "that day" In Fact it wold probably have been a good place to set the new year.
You may want to consider that not all of Scandinavia is above the arctic circle; perhaps only 1/4 populationwise. I'm scandinavian, and I do find the midnight sun an unusual phenomenon. There is little doubt in my mind that my ancestors would've found it interesting enough to give it a name, especially since they may not have had a clear idea about the mechanism behind it. The term midnight sun, or midnattssol, seems as likely as any other.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-13, 02:15 AM
Reading this thread and the midnight sun thread have made me ask a question:

Maksutov, how do you do the bang head on wall smiley?

It will save me alot of wear and tear on my own head :)When you create a thread or reply to a post, a frame with smilies shows up to the right of the text box. If the "banging head against the wall" smilie isn't there, then click on the "[more]" hotlink and you'll see it in a pop-up window.

BTW, the answer to the title of this thread is, it's the Sun when seen at midnight.

:)

cjl
2006-Sep-13, 03:40 AM
Oh look! one person supported Attiyah's theory, I wonder who it could be.
Probably Attiyah.

AGN Fuel
2006-Sep-13, 04:06 AM
When you create a thread or reply to a post, a frame with smilies shows up to the right of the text box. If the "banging head against the wall" smilie isn't there, then click on the "[more]" hotlink and you'll see it in a pop-up window.

:)


Hmmm - strange. I don't get any selection of smilies to choose from. If I want a smilie in a post, I have to manually type the code for it.

Do I need to enable something to get this frame, or do you have to be an officially paid disinformationist to get that sort of perk?

Maksutov
2006-Sep-13, 04:13 AM
Hmmm - strange. I don't get any selection of smilies to choose from. If I want a smilie in a post, I have to manually type the code for it.

Do I need to enable something to get this frame, or do you have to be an officially paid disinformationist to get that sort of perk?Yes, you have to be an officially paid disinformationist to get that sort of perk.

You can sign up to be an officially paid disinformationist by clicking on "User CP" then "Edit Options", then scrolling down to "Miscellaneous Options" and choosing "Enhanced Interface" in the drop-down menu box.

BTW, the smilies also show up in "Standard Editor".

Graybeard6
2006-Sep-13, 05:26 AM
I don't think he's looking for the actual "'Midnight Sun", but the metaphorical version.

"Your lips were like a red and ruby chalice, warmer than the summer night
The clouds were like an alabaster palace rising to a snowy height.
Each star its own aurora borealis, suddenly you held me tight
I could see the Midnight Sun.

I can't explain the silver rain that found me--or was that a moonlit veil?
The music of the universe around me, or was that a nightingale?
And then your arms miraculously found me,suddenly the sky turned pale,
I could see the Midnight Sun.

Was there such a night, it's a thrill I still don't quite believe,
But after you were gone, there was still some stardust on my sleeve.

The flame of it may dwindle to an ember, and the stars forget to shine,
And we may see the meadow in December, icy white and crystalline,
But oh my darling always I'll remember when your lips were close to mine,
And we saw the Midnight Sun."

Melody by the late Lionel Hampton, don't know who wrote the lyrics.

AGN Fuel
2006-Sep-13, 05:28 AM
Yes, you have to be an officially paid disinformationist to get that sort of perk.

You can sign up to be an officially paid disinformationist by clicking on "User CP" then "Edit Options", then scrolling down to "Miscellaneous Options" and choosing "Enhanced Interface" in the drop-down menu box.

BTW, the smilies also show up in "Standard Editor".


Whoa, sweet - Thanks Mak!

Now to sit back and wait for the cheques to start rolling in! :dance:

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-13, 05:30 AM
Sheesh, Mak, you'll just let anyone into the disinformationist smilie club, won't you? :wall:

By the way, I've always used the "standard [disinformationist] editor." I never bothered with the "Enhanced [Illuminati Leadership] Interface."

Kaptain K
2006-Sep-13, 06:20 AM
The smilies are not available in "Quick Reply" unless you use "Go Advanced". ;)

Tog
2006-Sep-13, 08:25 AM
You may want to consider that not all of Scandinavia is above the arctic circle; perhaps only 1/4 populationwise. I'm scandinavian, and I do find the midnight sun an unusual phenomenon. There is little doubt in my mind that my ancestors would've found it interesting enough to give it a name, especially since they may not have had a clear idea about the mechanism behind it. The term midnight sun, or midnattssol, seems as likely as any other.

Eh. It made sese to me, but you're in a far better position to actually know, so ummm nevermind what I said about it. :shifty: Another bit of random conjecture shot down by a credible witness. :)

LayMan
2006-Sep-13, 08:40 AM
OMG, the smilies are taking over the Internet, somebody please call Von Däniken...

Anyway, I think the only place you're going to be able to see the sun shining in an otherwise black sky is on the Moon (off course, if that is going to lead somebody to the assumpion that our ancient ancestors beat Neil Armstrong to it, then maybe I do need to brush up on the guy)...

Btw, I'm aware of my own fondness of the little round guys, no need to point that out.

:p

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-13, 08:53 AM
From Finnish!
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun

Click: Arctic Circle
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle
Please read this statement:
"Within the Arctic Circle, the arctic Sun is above the horizon for at least 24 continuous hours once per year, in conjunction with the Arctic's Summer Solstice - this is often referred to in local vernacular as midnight sun".

Click: both
vernacular as midnight sun

(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun

Please read this statement:
"A quarter of Finland's territory lies above the Arctic Circle, and as a consequence the midnight sun can be experienced — for more and more days, the further north one goes. At Finland's northernmost point, the sun does not set for 73 days during summer."

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-13, 08:57 AM
So it's the same expression in Finnish as in English and Swedish. How does that advance your claim?

Grant Hutchison

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-13, 09:07 AM
From Finnish!
(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun


Yup. This was a link that was noted for you before.



Click: Arctic Circle
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle
Please read this statement:
"Within the Arctic Circle, the arctic Sun is above the horizon for at least 24 continuous hours once per year, in conjunction with the Arctic's Summer Solstice - this is often referred to in local vernacular as midnight sun".

Click: both
vernacular as midnight sun


Yes, this is again what we've been trying to tell you: Midnight sun refers to a condition where the sun is in the sky for at least 24 hours with, obviously, the typical sky when the sun is in the sky (not black).



(3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_sun

Please read this statement:
"A quarter of Finland's territory lies above the Arctic Circle, and as a consequence the midnight sun can be experienced — for more and more days, the further north one goes. At Finland's northernmost point, the sun does not set for 73 days during summer."

Exactly. So are you ready to retract your argument now?

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-13, 09:08 AM
So it's the same expression in Finnish as in English and Swedish. How does that advance your claim?

Grant Hutchison

"...this is often referred to in local vernacular as midnight sun".

Is "midnight sun" term a Finnish term"?

It is obvious that the term "midnight sun' is a translation of a Finnish term. This means that the origin of the term is Finnish. This can help search for the history of the term and its original meaning.

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-13, 09:23 AM
Yup. This was a link that was noted for you before.



Yes, this is again what we've been trying to tell you: Midnight sun refers to a condition where the sun is in the sky for at least 24 hours with, obviously, the typical sky when the sun is in the sky (not black).



Exactly. So are you ready to retract your argument now?
How many times should AZ say that HE KNOWS THAT, in its expanded concept, the "midnight sun" means the so-called prolonged days or perpetual days. But he insists that its original meaning was "a sunny "real" night"!
It is probale that the Finnish people began using their term which meant to them "a sunny "real" midnight" or even a "sunny "real" night" since the time of Maunder Minimum.

Tog
2006-Sep-13, 09:27 AM
How many times should AZ say that HE KNOWS THAT, in its expanded concept, the "midnight sun" means the so-called prolonged days or perpetual days. But he insists that its original meaning was "a sunny "real" night"!
It is probale that the Finnish people began using their term which meant to them "a sunny "real" midnight" or even a "sunny "real" night" since the time of Maunder Minimum.

So, again, what changed in the way the sunlight reaches the ground that made a "real sunny midnight" become multiple days of normal daylight?

Why would the sun 1 degree above the horizon today be any ifferent then 1 degree above the horizon at any other time in the history of humans?

Why whould this effect only happen on the aone day, at that one lattitude?

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-13, 09:54 AM
It is obvious that the term "midnight sun' is a translation of a Finnish term.It's not at all obvious. And it contributes nothing to your (now heavily modified) thesis that somewhere at some time, under really unusual circumstances not currently observed, someone saw the sun shine in a dark sky.

Grant Hutchison

Van Rijn
2006-Sep-13, 09:56 AM
How many times should AZ say that HE KNOWS THAT, in its expanded concept, the "midnight sun" means the so-called prolonged days or perpetual days.


AZ, there are many assumptions in your statements, and your language use is confusing for me, so it is not at all clear to me what you "know." Are you now saying you understand that, today, for the midnight sun, the sun is up and the sky is as it always is when the sun is up (not black)?



But he insists that its original meaning was "a sunny "real" night"!


As an example of the assumptions, you insist on a definition of a 'sunny "real" night' that does not agree with mine.



It is probale that the Finnish people began using their term which meant to them "a sunny "real" midnight" or even a "sunny "real" night" since the time of Maunder Minimum.

So (given your assumptions on definition) are you suggesting that the physics have changed since the term was originally coined?

See, you can argue about definitions (or who coined the term) all you want, but the physics are clear and you can have as many eye witnesses as you want. These do not agree with your "sun in the sky/sky is black" argument. If you're going to suggest that the meaning of the term has changed, that the event itself has changed, then that would mean that conditions changed radically.

V-GER
2006-Sep-13, 10:35 AM
It is probale that the Finnish people began using their term which meant to them "a sunny "real" midnight" or even a "sunny "real" night" since the time of Maunder Minimum.


Attiyah, let me make this as clear as possible:

In Finnish it is called "keskiyön aurinko" which directly translated means "the midnight sun". It does not refer to a dark sky in anyway. For the umpteen time: THE SKY IS NOT DARK DURING THE MIDNIGHT SUN!!!

Tog
2006-Sep-13, 10:47 AM
Attiyah, let me make this as clear as possible:

In Finnish it is called "keskiyön aurinko" which directly translated means "the midnight sun". It does not refer to a dark sky in anyway. For the umpteen time: THE SKY IS NOT DARK DURING THE MIDNIGHT SUN!!!

As I understand his last few posts, AZ does understand this. His contention now is that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky. The conditions that allowed that are no longer present, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-13, 11:01 AM
Oh. I asked my boyfriend about this. See, I tend to assume that "everybody knows" various things. I tend to be wrong. My boyfriend isn't as educated or as widely read as I, so he tends to be a pretty good grounding as to whether or not everybody really knows things.

He says the midnight sun is, and I quote, "the 24-hour day, the day when the sun never sets."

V-GER
2006-Sep-13, 11:11 AM
As I understand his last few posts, AZ does understand this. His contention now is that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky. The conditions that allowed that are no longer present, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning.

Well in any case the finnish term does not refer to dark sky and I've no knowledge it would have in the past, why would it?

Gillianren wrote:

the day when the sun never sets.

That's pretty much it.

Tog
2006-Sep-13, 11:24 AM
Well in any case the finnish term does not refer to dark sky and I've no knowledge it would have in the past, why would it?

I agree completely and have asked that same question twice now myself.

captain swoop
2006-Sep-13, 12:08 PM
It has to have been the way he says to support his other ideas about the way daylight works.

grant hutchison
2006-Sep-13, 12:41 PM
It does appear that we've now moved beyond the bounds of one of the standard definitions of "science", given that Attiyah Zahdeh has in recent posts modified the original hypothesis to the point where it's unfalsifiable. It's an admission of defeat, in terms of scientific debate.

Grant Hutchison

Attiyah Zahdeh
2006-Sep-13, 01:24 PM
As I understand his last few posts, AZ does understand this. His contention now is that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky. The conditions that allowed that are no longer present, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning.



Yes, from the beginning my contention was that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning. However, the conditions that allowed a visible sun in a dark sky are probable to occur especially when the Earth confronts an eceptionally low solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum.

DyerWolf
2006-Sep-13, 01:29 PM
In this world,

The universe is a cube:
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46055

Skylight comes from global daytime auroras... The magnetosphere works as a parabolic converging mirror. The Sun as seen at the Earth’s surface involves a well-developed auroral radiant point (auroral corona).
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46168

Sunrise looks different from sunset: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46401

The blueness of the sky is mainly due to ozone:
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46364

Perhaps the problem is that since the blueness of the sky is due to ozone, and there is a hole in the ozone, the hole prevents the magnetosphere from fully working as a parabolic converging mirror and the global daytime auroras cannot block out the dark sky of night on the night of the 21st of June, Summer Solstice, since you have not been there to personally verify the untruth it must therefore be true that AZ could see the sun shining from the darkness of a true night sky and find himself in a real sunny midnight because, as we all know, it is dark at night otherwise Grendel wouldn't have coined the phrase while stalking his lonely path of destruction north of the arctic square.

Jens
2006-Sep-13, 01:40 PM
How many times should AZ say that HE KNOWS THAT, in its expanded concept, the "midnight sun" means the so-called prolonged days or perpetual days. But he insists that its original meaning was "a sunny "real" night"!
It is probale that the Finnish people began using their term which meant to them "a sunny "real" midnight" or even a "sunny "real" night" since the time of Maunder Minimum.

AZ,

I understand what you're trying to say. The problem is, there is no way to get the information you are looking for. There is simply no way to go back that far in history. In fact, it is probable that people had a word for "midnight sun" before writing existed, so there are no records. The simple reality is that there are many things about the past that we will never know, because records don't exist.

Tog
2006-Sep-13, 02:37 PM
Yes, from the beginning my contention was that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning. However, the conditions that allowed a visible sun in a dark sky are probable to occur especially when the Earth confronts an eceptionally low solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum.

But even if this were tha case, and the Sun dropped from a magnitude -27 object to a magnitude -15 object (still brighter than the moon), why would it only affect that one place on the one date. If the effect were due to the Sun being dimmer, it would affect all parts of the planet at the same time.

Hamlet
2006-Sep-13, 03:50 PM
Yes, from the beginning my contention was that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning.

But do you see this can never happen? If the Sun is visible, the sky is not going to be black. There's no indication that anyone, at anytime, meant midnight sun to be what you claim it to be.



However, the conditions that allowed a visible sun in a dark sky are probable to occur especially when the Earth confronts an eceptionally low solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum.

What conditions? Why is a dearth of sunspots going to make the sky dark when the Sun is visible? The light from the Sun comes to Earth and is scattered by the atmosphere whether there are sunspots or not.

Maksutov
2006-Sep-13, 10:03 PM
Sheesh, Mak, you'll just let anyone into the disinformationist smilie club, won't you? :wall:You of all people should know we're an EO(S)DAE*!!


By the way, I've always used the "standard [disinformationist] editor." I never bothered with the "Enhanced [Illuminati Leadership] Interface."I prefer standard too, especially if it's a five-speed.














*Equal Opportunity (and Spirit) Disinformation Agent Employer

Robert Andersson
2006-Sep-13, 10:37 PM
Eh. It made sese to me, but you're in a far better position to actually know, so ummm nevermind what I said about it. :shifty: Another bit of random conjecture shot down by a credible witness. :)
No worry, random conjecture is always a good start (unless you're as stubborn like AZ) :). On my part, I'm happy to retract my claim that 1/4 of scandinavians live above the arctic circle; glancing at a map, it's more like 1/10.

Nereid
2006-Sep-14, 12:15 AM
Yes, from the beginning my contention was that the term's original meaning meant a visible sun in a dark sky, but the term has remained in use with a new meaning. However, the conditions that allowed a visible sun in a dark sky are probable to occur especially when the Earth confronts an eceptionally low solar minimum like the so-called Maunder Minimum.AFAIK, behaviourally modern humans lived in the 'midnight sun' region at least 20,000 years ago (though they almost certainly left during the Younger Dryas).

Such humans almost certainly had language.

Even the bravest of scientists who study the origins and history of language would say that reconstructing the language(s) spoken by the people who inhabited areas in and around the Artic Circle, 12,000 years or so ago, is impossible (today) - such language(s) would predate proto-IndoEuropean, proto-Uralic, proto-Altaic, and proto-Eskimo-Aleut.

As I said in 'the other thread', BAUT is avowedly scientific in its approach, and that here in the Q&A section (as well as the ATM one), we concentrate on astronomy, astrophysics, cosmology, and space science.

It seems to me that your contention - in the post I quote - is both an ATM one and outside the scope of BAUT.

If anyone can make a good case that what we are discussing is, pace Nereid, within BAUT's scope, then please do so, by sending me (or another mod) a PM (and this thread, or the other one, will be reopened).

For now at least, thread closed.