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planethollywood
2006-Sep-13, 01:09 PM
I just saw something that really has me worried. I just watched a news click that shows how to defeat any tumbler lock in seconds and without damaging the lock... The technique is called "bumping". This really is the end of feeling safe for life and property behind a lock and key!

have a look at http://e-techblog.com/2006/08/07/how-to-unlock-any-lock-bump-keying/

what choice do we have on a home level?

Moose
2006-Sep-13, 01:17 PM
Any suffiently determined person can invade your home regardless of what you do to secure it. Security systems aren't there to keep people from entering. They're there to make your neighbors look more tempting by comparison.

What makes the situation vexing is the insurance companies who seem to be using this as yet another excuse to duck having to pay out.

Your choice? Do you own a dog?

Grand_Lunar
2006-Sep-13, 01:29 PM
I have a dog, but I'm not sure if he's effective.

Ronald Brak
2006-Sep-13, 01:45 PM
Back up your hardrive and drop the backups in a safety deposit box. What besides that have you got that you can't afford to lose? Family photos? Scan 'em and back 'em up. High school year book? Scan it. Back it up.

Librate yourself from the tyranny of physical ownership.

Then again, there's always an alarm system or electronic locks.

Moose
2006-Sep-13, 01:48 PM
All a dog really has to do is make noise to alert anyone who might be in the house. That's generally enough if you can make the house look like it might be occupied.

I can't emphasize this enough:


Any suffiently determined person can invade your home regardless of what you do to secure it. Security systems aren't there to keep people from entering. They're there to make your neighbors look more tempting by comparison.

Jason Thompson
2006-Sep-13, 01:50 PM
This really is the end of feeling safe for life and property behind a lock and key!

No it isn't. There are other types of lock that simply will not be bothered by this method. Use a couple of types and you'll be fine.

Let's face it, locks have never bothered burglars in the past. If someone wants to get inside your house badly enough they'll find a way, like crowbarring a window or stealing/copying your key.

farmerjumperdon
2006-Sep-13, 02:38 PM
All a dog really has to do is make noise to alert anyone who might be in the house. That's generally enough if you can make the house look like it might be occupied.

I can't emphasize this enough:

Yep, loud pets. I don't think many amatuer burglars would be nervy enough to hang around with our dogs going nuts making noise. And we have nothing a professional burglar would want.

tlbs101
2006-Sep-13, 05:26 PM
We have a dog -- she is a decent watch dog, but burglars had better beware of our killer cats (lol).

We have metal bars over our front windows, and like Moose says, they are more to make our house look less inviting to the casual thief canvassing a neighborhood, than anything else.

I have installed gates that from the front appear to be solid wood fences at both sides of our house, to deter the casual burglar from entering our back yard.

Our safe has both a combination lock and a circular-key lock, and it is anchored to the concrete floor.

We (wife and I) are also very good friends with the neighbors on all sides, and keep watch (although it is not an official "neighborhood watch" program).


NOW... if I can just figure out how to protect our vehicles parked in the driveway, which get broken into about once every other year. :(

Nicolas
2006-Sep-13, 05:36 PM
Librate yourself from the tyranny of physical ownership.


Tyranny?

Explain that to a musician whose instrument on which he composed his songs is stolen. Doesn't matter whether the model is still for sale or not.
Explain that to a kid whose toys are stolen. Doesn't matter that you can buy the same toy in the shop.

Physical objects are what is stolen, but they can imply much more than physical ownership. Just like instruments and toys, also the vintage audio equipment I brought together has lots of emotional value connected to it that's ALSO stolen because the object and its emotional value can't be separated, even though the thieves only want the object.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-13, 07:36 PM
Tyranny?

Explain that to a musician whose instrument on which he composed his songs is stolen. Doesn't matter whether the model is still for sale or not.
Explain that to a kid whose toys are stolen. Doesn't matter that you can buy the same toy in the shop.

Physical objects are what is stolen, but they can imply much more than physical ownership. Just like instruments and toys, also the vintage audio equipment I brought together has lots of emotional value connected to it that's ALSO stolen because the object and its emotional value can't be separated, even though the thieves only want the object.

Spot on, Nicolas.

I have about a ton of stuff. Leaving out the books, music, movies, and sewing equipment, of course, I have a lot less. But a scanned copy of my high school yearbook, for example, won't have the emotional significance of the physical object. Then there are the things that didn't look like much but belonged to my dad. I don't really remember my dad; I don't want to give up what little of his I have. And Grandma's pearls mean something to me at least half because they're Grandma's, and she said I was the only one she could think of who should have one. (I have two sisters, a female cousin, an aunt, a mother, and several female relatives by marriage--plus I think the aunt's son might have a daughter by now.)

Now. I live in an apartment. There's not a heck of a lot I can do to make the place more safe--not only can't we have dogs, I wouldn't if we could. I loathe dogs. The locks we have are the locks we're going to have. But any burglar trying to enter the house would trip over my cat, who likes sleeping in the hallway when it's dark, and the phone's right by my bed.

Jim
2006-Sep-13, 08:13 PM
"Locks only discourage the honest thieves."

As has been mentioned, the idea is not to guarantee that no one can break in, but to make it as difficult and time consuming (and attention grabbing) as possible.

We have the little thumb locks on all the windows, scratchy bushes under most of the windows, double locks on the doors, two dogs that bark at strange noises, and security lights.

(On a related note, I saw an interview with a former thief on tv; he's now in the security business. He mentioned the discouragement tactic. He also mentioned that thieves love car alarms. The owners of the cars feel protected so they get sloppy, seldom hear the alarms when they go off, and the neighbors are so glad when they finally stop - because the thief has ripped the wires out - that they just go back to what they were doing.)

PhantomWolf
2006-Sep-13, 08:58 PM
Well I could design a burglar proof home, but unfortunately it'd be considered illegal.

Maha Vailo
2006-Sep-13, 09:38 PM
Well I could design a burglar proof home, but unfortunately it'd be considered illegal.

Just out of curiosity, what part of it would be illegal? I've got an alarm system, several locks on the door, and someone's always awake in the building at all times (no dogs, though). Tell me more about your burglar-proof home and what might make it illegal.

- Maha Vailo

Jim
2006-Sep-13, 09:40 PM
Well I could design a burglar proof home, but unfortunately it'd be considered illegal.

Rats, now you've got me thinking about that old joke... "In 30 days, the viper will be here."

JMV
2006-Sep-13, 10:00 PM
Just out of curiosity, what part of it would be illegal?...

...Tell me more about your burglar-proof home and what might make it illegal.

Probably something similar to the anti-carjacker flamethrowers. :)

Moose
2006-Sep-13, 11:51 PM
Tell me more about your burglar-proof home and what might make it illegal.

Some of these (http://www.hackaday.com/2005/09/21/robotic-sentry-gun/) about the yard and house, I would imagine.

Someone ripped off all the plums in both my father's and neighbor's trees last year. The trees were both slightly damaged as well. I mentionned that link to my father, who thought it was an idea in the right direction, but not large enough caliber.

He's hedging his bets this year. He planted a plum tree in my yard, knowing full well I don't eat plums. :)

publius
2006-Sep-13, 11:56 PM
Phantom Wolf's anti-burglar system may be like some of the booby-traps an old codger around here was known to rig from time to time. They finally convinced him to stop, as he would be in a lot more trouble than any burglars. He grumbled about how ridiculous that was, but quit.

He was an expert machinist, gunsmith, and ex-army explosive expert, which will give you an idea of what he was capable of. :) One of his booby traps was some homemade claymore mine type contractions. Anyone walked in through a door or window, and they got a face and bodyful of shotgun shot. Back in his heyday, dynamite was available at any decent hardware store (sold only to those they knew of course, and who had a good reason), and this guy was known to use that to protect some of his more valuable stashes.

This fellow, name of Ralph, died oh, about 15 - 20 years ago. A month or so after his death, his son, whom I know, got a call from a way out-of-town lawyer saying he had something important to give him. The made arrangements to fly out and meet with the son.

It turned out the lawyer had been hired by Ralph to hold the map to the places where he had buried and otherwise hidden money, valuables, and other stuff. :) It was quite a treasure, from what I understand. The other stuff, well, I don't know for sure what it was, but I understand it wouldn't be too legal nowadays.

-Richard

PhantomWolf
2006-Sep-14, 02:31 AM
Well apparently they won't let you install 100,000V +/- grids in the floor and ceiling of the house for a start. For some reason the same goes for filling the house with halogen or even noble gases. I have various other ideas as well that would certainly stop a burgler, well, Dead in his tracks, but there seems to be a little law that states such items deliberately set up to do so are illegal and would result in a murder charge.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-14, 03:25 AM
(On a related note, I saw an interview with a former thief on tv; he's now in the security business. He mentioned the discouragement tactic. He also mentioned that thieves love car alarms. The owners of the cars feel protected so they get sloppy, seldom hear the alarms when they go off, and the neighbors are so glad when they finally stop - because the thief has ripped the wires out - that they just go back to what they were doing.)

God, there's a guy in our apartment complex whose alarm goes off something like half a dozen times most nights. I hope someone does take his car!

lti
2006-Sep-14, 06:58 AM
Our safe has both a combination lock and a circular-key lock, and it is anchored to the concrete floor.
(

You have a safe!?

Tog
2006-Sep-14, 07:46 AM
You have a safe!?

My dad has two. One is a gun safe which has a section for important papers, the other is one he made out of 1/4 steel. It's only reasonably secure though becasue the hunges are on the outside and the padlock can be picked, though I've never been able to do it. The lock can't be cut off with bolt cutters because it's in a steel cylinder with only the bottom exposed. BTW, that is so far the ONLY Master Padlock I've never ben able to pick. Most open within 30 seconds. The ones most people use for bike chains... well let's just say that opening the case, taking out the picks and picking two of them can be done in under 10 seconds by a person with no real training.:shifty:

I had some really nasty home defense booby trap ideas when I was younger. Most could be made with a trip to a hardware store. One was a pair of 20 pound sledge hammers held apart by a couple of bits of rebar. The end of the handles were notched to sit on a mounting bar in the top of the stairwell. The tripwire on the stairs would release the box frame. Once it rotated a bit past the 90 degree point, the notch in the handles would no longer be above the mounting bar at the top of the stairs. The whole contraption would then swing down the stairs in way that would make being on them rather unpleasant. I was 14 then, but I never built a full scale version.

Something I might do now (if had the money) would be to get a few high intensity strobe lights and a smoke machine or two. If someone is in the house when the system is active, a small recorder will play one of those "what was that" noises from behind the strobe light. The light will flash wrecking whatever nightvision the intruder may have. Then the smoke machine will start up. People don't really seem too interested in alarms these days, but fire gets attention pretty much all the time.

From my misspent youth, I learned that a water and air based fire extiguisher can be mixed with the chalk used by carpenters to make guide lines with those "pop string" things. The red chalk is semi-permanant for all your bad guy marking needs.

Nasty bushes outside of all the windows is a great one too and highly recommended by most experts.

A combination lock on the front door would defeat most lockpickers, but it will be a bother with an arm load of groceries.

One I saw on an episode of MacGuyver was pretty good. 10 deadbolts on the door, but only 3 to 7 are actually locked. Turning one that is unlocked will lock it, so unless you know how many locks are really locked, and which ones they are, even with a key it will take way too long to get in.

Strider1974
2006-Sep-14, 08:41 AM
Years ago I lived in Redfern, Sydney very close to a Aboriginal slum. All the flats had bars on every door and window, two locks to get through the front door and yet, a neighbour was robbed because the thieves broke through a wall.

Laguna
2006-Sep-14, 09:19 AM
NOW... if I can just figure out how to protect our vehicles parked in the driveway, which get broken into about once every other year. :(
My standard for my holiday vacation is to simply let the doors unlocked and leave nothing inside. I installed a car radio I can take with me. I open all compartments someone could expect that I store something of value inside.
The car is equipped with an immobilizer system which is indicated on the outside.
Ohh, and I drive an old car that nobody wants to steal *g*

FrostByte
2006-Sep-14, 11:56 AM
Hehe, I can so imagen the boobytrapped house. Every now and then there would be a gruesome, agonizing scream coming from the entrance where some poor burglar tried to break in.

I'm thinking flamethrowers and landmines, here. Lasers and even if you're up for it: a bottomless pit. Then you can demonstrate the workings of gravity to your kids!

"now look, timmy: as you can see the burglar will keep on swinging back and forth between the two surfaces of the earth untill the drag stops him to the very center of the earth!"

Nicolas
2006-Sep-14, 02:48 PM
"yeah, don't be afraid to take a closer look. The drag losses prevent the burglar from smashing into your face."

Educational AND fun! ;)

Andreas
2006-Sep-14, 03:35 PM
Lock bumping isn't exactly news, on German TV there were demonstrations of those at least as far back as 2003.

Also, there's this one guy (who likes to appear in conjunction with those reports) who invented a lock safe against those kind of attacks. Trying the bump key attack on those, it allows the key to be turned for about 1/8, then jams completely. The key can't be turned further to open the lock and can't be turned back to remove the key, leaving evidence of attempted burglary.

tlbs101
2006-Sep-14, 04:23 PM
Our safe has both a combination lock and a circular-key lock, and it is anchored to the concrete floor.

You have a safe!?
Yes, and I forgot to mention -- it is one of those fire resistant kind.


My standard for my holiday vacation is to simply let the doors unlocked and leave nothing inside. ...
The first question the police and the insurance company ask is: were the doors locked? If they weren't locked the insurance company won't pay any claim. Fortunately nothing of real value has been stolen over the years, so I haven't had to make a claim.

Ohh, and I drive an old car that nobody wants to steal *g*
Yes, our autos are getting older and they are becoming the type that nobody wants.

Maha Vailo
2006-Sep-14, 05:55 PM
Well apparently they won't let you install 100,000V +/- grids in the floor and ceiling of the house for a start. For some reason the same goes for filling the house with halogen or even noble gases. I have various other ideas as well that would certainly stop a burgler, well, Dead in his tracks, but there seems to be a little law that states such items deliberately set up to do so are illegal and would result in a murder charge.

Well, yeah, that would stop a burglar dead in his tracks, but would also stop you dead in your tracks!

Is there any way one can burglar-proof their home without the risk of hurting the inhabitants within?

- Maha Vailo

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-14, 06:07 PM
Is there any way one can burglar-proof their home without the risk of hurting the inhabitants within?

- Maha Vailo

The way I do it is with 3 very loud dogs & 1 Remington 870 Police Magnum :D

Gillianren
2006-Sep-14, 06:28 PM
The way I do it is with 3 very loud dogs & 1 Remington 870 Police Magnum :D

Which is not, statistically speaking, guaranteed safe for the inhabitants.

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-14, 06:58 PM
Which is not, statistically speaking, guaranteed safe for the inhabitants.

Perfectly safe,it's just the wife & I & we live in a mostly rural area.

You're not referring to that "If you keep a gun in your home you're 42% more likely to kill or injure a family member" are you? Because if so,that "statistic" has been so thoroughly debunked because of it's biased & flawed methodology that not even the Brady people use it anymore.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-14, 07:22 PM
If it's just you and your wife, you're indeed no threat for the three loud dogs and their magnum ;)

Chip
2006-Sep-15, 05:35 PM
I just say "Robby Protect" and Robby lowers the shield. If Robby is busy making jewelry for my girlfriend, I just beam the shield. The only thing my house isn't safe from is myself.

lti
2006-Sep-17, 10:09 AM
All the guns in the world wont protect you if the other guy shoots first. Are u really prepared to kill?

zebo-the-fat
2006-Sep-17, 04:05 PM
Bars on the windows, mines on the lawn?
I don't want to live in a prison, that's what it would feel like!
I will take my chances and rely on the feline fangs of doom :lol:

BigDon
2006-Sep-17, 04:26 PM
All the guns in the world wont protect you if the other guy shoots first. Are u really prepared to kill?


Are you prepared not to? We have some sorry characters in my town.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-17, 07:17 PM
I had an upstairs neighbor once who almost shot his own kid, he was so eager to kill intruders. Now, I couldn't kill anyone--I'm much more likely to go into a panic attack--unless I'm in full manic rage, which doesn't happen often, so a gun would be less than useless to me.

BigDon
2006-Sep-17, 07:35 PM
Now Gillian, unless one of your oft mentioned meds includes mind reading pills you don't know how eager your upstairs neighbor was to kill anybody. Preparedness is not the same as eagerness. I've taught my daughters how to be familiar with and have some proficiency with hand guns. doesn't mean they are eager to kill.

PhantomWolf
2006-Sep-17, 08:52 PM
Is there any way one can burglar-proof their home without the risk of hurting the inhabitants within?

Well if you really wanted too, you could have 100mm steel plates in the middle of the wall, armoured glass in the windows, electronic locks, a steel door, a 100mm steel plate in the ceiling and under the floor so that you basically live in a a disgused steel box with windows and doors. But even that would only slow down a really determined buglar.

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-17, 08:53 PM
All the guns in the world wont protect you if the other guy shoots first. Are u really prepared to kill?

If he hadn't shown me his hands when he did I was prepared to pull the trigger.

PhantomWolf
2006-Sep-17, 09:01 PM
If he hadn't shown me his hands when he did I was prepared to pull the trigger.

Top Ten reasons I'm glad I don't live in the US.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-17, 11:14 PM
Here you can rob somebody for his mp3-player, stab him to death during the process and still claim self-defence, which might be the other side of the pendulum.

In defence of our law system, he's still being charged for (whatever the official term is for) "murder for robbery". He might be telling the truth that he wasn't intending to kill him (which he says now, earlier he "couldn't remember due to being on pills"), but he did intend to rob him and threaten him with a knife, and he did intentionally stab him. The robbing&threatening with a knife part is enough for me to make any resulting death not unintentionally.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-18, 06:26 AM
Now Gillian, unless one of your oft mentioned meds includes mind reading pills you don't know how eager your upstairs neighbor was to kill anybody. Preparedness is not the same as eagerness. I've taught my daughters how to be familiar with and have some proficiency with hand guns. doesn't mean they are eager to kill.

I'm just repeating what he told me. He slept with his gun under his pillow. His kid entered the room. He sat upright in bed, gun aimed at his son.

He never slept with his gun under his pillow again, either.

Tog
2006-Sep-18, 07:15 AM
Since the thread has turned a bit toward the topic of guns for home defense, I feel a need to weigh in.

I was raised around guns. I have no memory of learning how to shoot. I do have a memory of shooting a 22 pistol the summer before, or after kindergarten, so about age 5 or 6. At age 7, I won the state championship in junior class for a type of long range pistol shooting, and did it with bullets I reloaded myself without parental supervision. Around age 10, I won the weekly "fun shoot" where the goal is to clear 5 bowling pins off of a table 7.5 yards away before the other guy. That same night I used a fully automatic MAC-11 (in .380) to win the unlimited class. My dad knew a guy...

I feel pretty good about my level of knowledge about guns in general and while I tend to not bring it up first, I generally don't have a problem with talking about it if someone else does. To me guns are not some magic device; they are not toys; they are tools. Like a hammer, a gun was made to do something rather specific. Like a hammer they can be a danger to the user, or those near the user. The difference is that the radius is much larger with a gun.

I live in a state where any citizen can carry a concealed, loaded gun on the street as long they have no convictions for felonies or domestic abuse. They are required to take a class that runs about 4 hours and submit to a background check. The process takes about 6 weeks and costs $100. They are NOT required to show any level of proficiency when actually firing the gun, only in loading and unloading it (I don't agree with this bit). I have been asked many times by people I met at work what they should get for a carry gun. My first question is almost always "Why do you need one". If they have no answer, I tell them it wouldn't be a good idea. I'm also a firm believer in the idea that a person should be required to meet the minimum requirements for a law enforcement officer to carry a gun.

For home use here, there are no restrictions at all. If I want to slap on a gun belt the second I walk through the door, I am free to do so. The concealed carry classes cover the fallout from shooting at another person. Basically, a private citizen has the same rights as a police officer when it comes to a shoot/don’t shoot decision. In fact, the private citizen does not need to call out “freeze” or anything else. No warning need be given. If I am sitting at my desk and someone comes through the front door and I feel my life in danger, I can shoot. In our class, the instructor mentioned a restriction that is in place in California. If a person comes in my door and I feel my life is in danger, I am not allowed to shoot unless I have no means of escape. The way it was explained, if all the guy wants is the TV, that’s fine, but if he follows you to the basement, then you should worry. I disagree with this in a big way.

Would I be willing to shoot someone that was threatening me or a loved one, or even a stranger? Yeah, I think I would. Do I carry a gun around? No. Do I have one under the pillow? No. Do I have one in the bedroom? Yep. Have I practiced a great deal with it in combat style shooting situations? Yep. Have I practiced enough? No, it’s not possible.

What Gillian said about her neighbor nearly shooting his son is certainly plausible to me. I have spoken to many people who say they can’t wait for someone to break in. My dad is one.

What PW said, (Top Ten reasons I'm glad I don't live in the US.)I do have an issue with. Without knowing the details of the situation mentioned, there is no way to know if it was on overreaction or not. If it was some guy that came to the door to use the phone, then yes, shooting him would be out of line. If you wake up a 3 AM to see a guy with a ski mask and precut strips of duct tape stuck to his sleeve standing over your bed, a demand at gunpoint to see his hands is fully acceptable; at least in my view.

A gun is no different in my eyes than a knife, sword, axe, or bat. All can be lethal. There are certain, very important, considerations when it comes to guns in self defense, but they are still just tools. With proper training and a stable mindset they are no more a danger than a kitchen knife. Of course, when someone cuts themselves with a knife, it doesn’t make the news. At least none of mine ever did.

SeanF
2006-Sep-18, 02:00 PM
Here you can rob somebody for his mp3-player, stab him to death during the process and still claim self-defence, which might be the other side of the pendulum.

In defence of our law system, he's still being charged for (whatever the official term is for) "murder for robbery". He might be telling the truth that he wasn't intending to kill him (which he says now, earlier he "couldn't remember due to being on pills"), but he did intend to rob him and threaten him with a knife, and he did intentionally stab him. The robbing&threatening with a knife part is enough for me to make any resulting death not unintentionally.
That's definitely the other side of the pendulum. :)

I should try and look up a cite, but there was a case here in the US not too long ago where two men attempted to burglarize a house. The homeowner was armed, and shot both intruders, one of whom died. The surviving intruder was charged with manslaughter in the death of his cohort.

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-18, 07:48 PM
That's definitely the other side of the pendulum. :)

I should try and look up a cite, but there was a case here in the US not too long ago where two men attempted to burglarize a house. The homeowner was armed, and shot both intruders, one of whom died. The surviving intruder was charged with manslaughter in the death of his cohort.


Actually many states have a similar law,if you & your buddy decide to knock over the local liquor store & the owner shoots & kills your buddy,then you're charged with murder during the commission of a felony.

A sensible law.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-19, 08:51 PM
That being literally the other side of the world makes the difference just a tad bit more understandable.

Here you must wait for the intruder to have his knife halfway through your heart before you are allowed to slap him with the back of your hand in self-defence. Well, not that extreme but it has come that far that in practice you must be attacked rather than threatened in order to have legit self-defence. And don't ever try to kill an attacker before he kills you overhere.

HenrikOlsen
2006-Sep-20, 12:17 AM
I'm on the same side as you are, but I long ago decided I'd rather be in jail than in the morgue, so I'll go for the "seriously hurt the guy coming at me before he does me in" option any day.

BigDon
2006-Sep-20, 12:27 AM
Henrik, the saying around here is,"Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six".

mickal555
2006-Sep-21, 07:29 AM
Glad I live in australia....

Nicolas
2006-Sep-21, 08:55 AM
I'm on the same side as you are, but I long ago decided I'd rather be in jail than in the morgue, so I'll go for the "seriously hurt the guy coming at me before he does me in" option any day.

I think I'd also go for the less PC way to communicate with the guy coming at me, no matter if some people have gotten into trouble over that thanks to the guy's expensive lawyer. If he's armed it's different, I wouldn't know what to do when gun or knife is used against me. Then it suddenly isn't that straightforward to "go at him" eh.

BigDon
2006-Sep-21, 08:04 PM
Nick, with a knife, a properly used chair or barstool can save your butt. Hold it by the seat, legs out, toward the attacker. It has more reach. In a public place like a bar if you can hold your own long enough, someone will usually hit the knife wielder with a bottle or pool cue. People are actually more decent than what the news conveys.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-21, 08:42 PM
Really useful on the street or in the metro... if there was a chair I would think of taking it; I was thinking about situations sans props :).

Tog
2006-Sep-22, 07:31 AM
Really useful on the street or in the metro... if there was a chair I would think of taking it; I was thinking about situations sans props :).
At the risk of going WAY off topic here, some knife attack things you may find useful.

Nearly every book I’ve read and both instructors that offered an opinion on the subject said basically the same thing. No one wins a knife fight, one guy just loses less. They all agree that you will get cut unless you are extremely lucky. Some personal observations from classes and long talks with a really good instructor, skilled in several styles.

Distance is your friend. Unless you have “a cunning plan that cannot fail”, keep away from the knife. 2 meters is still danger close, as that distance can be covered before most people can react. Staying out of reach is the best bet. Most law enforcement here in the US will tell you that a guy with a knife at 7 meters can be on you before you can draw and fire a gun. And that’s when you’re expecting them to charge.

Totally unskilled will hold the knife very tightly, usually well out away from themselves with most of their weight over the lead foot. They may hold the knife in a reverse grip (one where the blade comes out from the little finger side of the hand instead of the thumb side) and attack with an overhand stabbing motion. This only works well in horror movies. These people usually go for the torso first.

People with a bit of skill or sense will tend to hold the knife loosely in the lead hand, but have their weight mostly on the back foot. The knife will be held much closer to the body and the other hand will be in a position to guard. This stance will allow them to reach further on a strike, similar to a lunge in fencing. It also allows them to fight defensively, slashing at the arms. Most skilled attackers will make many cuts to the arms and upper legs and wait for blood loss to take its toll. They will only go for the body strikes if they are sure they can get in safely. This is the vast majority of skilled knife users.

Very skilled people may stand exactly like the one above. Or they may stand with the empty hand in the lead, with the knife lower and to the rear. The knife may be in the standard or reverse grip. And they will probably use the lead hand to hit or grab the opponent to follow up with a body strike to end things as quickly as possible. This last group would be very unlikely to attack you unless they had a very good reason, or orders from headquarters. This is probably not the “mugging at the bus stop” sort of knife user.

Without training, keep away from all of them. If a situation comes up where you MUST do something, find something to throw. A handful of coins works well. If you have to get in striking range, expect to get cut. Keep in mind where the veins and arteries in your arms are and try and keep them protected. Try and use only one arm to block. It’s actually easier than blocking with two and it gives you less bleeding to stop later. Remember also that there are no rules. Kicking the shins, throwing coffee in the face, etc… All is fair.

For a gun user, things change. In some ways, guns are better to fight against. You only need to worry about the bullet. If you can drop the magazine from the gun, or empty it by firing it in another direction, it makes it useless. In many cases, this will involve knowing a lot about a number of different guns. For many guns, there is a button behind the trigger on the let side (sometimes both) that will drop the magazine and leave only one bullet in the chamber. For many small European guns, the magazine is a small catch on the bottom and the magazine needs to be pulled out of the gun. Many guns will have a safety lever that can be switched on to buy a bit of time. Glocks do not. Revolvers can be prevented from firing by simply holding the cylinder tightly, assuming they were not already cocked. They are very had to unload in a struggle. Against a gun, the best thing to do is what they tell you. Only act if you are sure they will shoot anyway. You have nothing to lose then. If they have the gun close enough to you to touch you with it, and you feel the need to knock it to one side, use the arm that is on the same side as their gun hand. If they have the gun in their right hand, use your left. Their arm will obstruct their view of your movement for a second. Try and time it so that you spin your body out of the way at the same time the gun gets hit. Follow up as fast as possible with a strike to the throat or eyes. I have found there is a slight delay between getting hit in the groin and curling up and crying. In some cases a couple of seconds. Eyes are much faster.

Finally, none of this is set in stone. If you really want to learn some self defense, find a place that smells of sweat and does NOT have a lot of trophies on display, and talk with the guy that runs it. A good instructor will tell you that knives are bad news. A “tournament school” instructor will usually tell you that they have you wiping the floor with a knife user in six months. I hate tournament schools.:evil:

We now return you to the previously listed topic.[/thread jack]:)

Glutomoto
2006-Sep-22, 07:54 AM
NOW... if I can just figure out how to protect our vehicles parked in the driveway, which get broken into about once every other year. :(

A large capacitor attached to the body of the car ?

GL
:)

Moose
2006-Sep-22, 10:30 AM
Yeah, but you have to be careful about hitting 88mph.

Strider1974
2006-Sep-23, 03:10 AM
Tog - One of the most intelligent posts on self defense I have seen.:clap:

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Sep-23, 07:47 AM
I have a dog, but I'm not sure if he's effective.
Juust Remember, a Good Watch Dog Doesn't Have to Be a Rottweiler or a Mastiff ...

It Only Has to Sound, Liike it ATE One ...

Over a Week Ago!

:eek:

Nicolas
2006-Sep-23, 09:28 AM
Tog - One of the most intelligent posts on self defense I have seen.:clap:

But, but, but, how does Steven Seagal do it then? :eh: :hand:

Strider1974
2006-Sep-23, 10:11 AM
But, but, but, how does Steven Seagal do it then? :eh: :hand:


:D

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-23, 11:08 AM
Tog,that's possibly the worst advice you can give about unarmed defense against a gun.All this nonsense about tying up a gun by dropping the magazine or grabbing the cylinder is virtually impossible,that's for Hollyweird movies.Do you know what'll happen if the gun goes off while someone's grabbing it? (and trust me,if you're trying to grab my gun I'm gonna pull the trigger) At the least you'll lose skin from the muzzle blast & at worst some hand bones along with the skin.There's a phenomonen called "flame cutting that happen to revolvers,it's the result of the hot gasses actually cutting into the metal.You wanna grab that?
Yeah,I know,Jet Li takes the slide off Gibson's gun in Lethal Weapon,but in real life the slide on a Beretta 92 cannot be removed while the magazine is in the gun.
Yes,it's still a good idea to fight if there's no other alternative,you might succeed.

Jim
2006-Sep-23, 12:26 PM
Juust Remember, a Good Watch Dog Doesn't Have to Be a Rottweiler or a Mastiff ...

It Only Has to Sound, Liike it ATE One ...


A man walks into a neighborhood bar and in a loud voice asks if the owner of the dog tied up out front is there. A large man at the bar stands up and says, "Yeah, that's my dog. What of it?"

"Well," says the first man rather sheepishly, "I should tell you that my dog just killed your dog."

"What! How is that possible!? My dog is a Rottweiler, a trained attack dog, perhaps the most lethal dog on the face of the earth! What kind of dog do you have?"

"A Chihuahua."

"You're telling me that your Chihuahua just killed my Rottweiler? How?"

"Your dog choked to death trying to swallow him."

Jim
2006-Sep-23, 12:28 PM
But, but, but, how does Steven Seagal do it then?

Well, first he approaches his opponent in a threatening manner, stands toe-to-toe with him, looks him square in the eye while muttering a sarcastic comment...

Then he gets the heck out of the way and lets the stunt double finish him off.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Sep-23, 12:54 PM
A man walks into a neighborhood bar and in a loud voice asks if the owner of the dog tied up out front is there. A large man at the bar stands up and says, "Yeah, that's my dog. What of it?"

"Well," says the first man rather sheepishly, "I should tell you that my dog just killed your dog."

"What! How is that possible!? My dog is a Rottweiler, a trained attack dog, perhaps the most lethal dog on the face of the earth! What kind of dog do you have?"

"A Chihuahua."

"You're telling me that your Chihuahua just killed my Rottweiler? How?"

"Your dog choked to death trying to swallow him."
FUNNY ...

My Parents Have a Lab Mix, That is Exactly What I Describe in My Post ...

She Only Weighs 50 Pounds, But she's Very Loud!

:eek:

Tog
2006-Sep-23, 05:33 PM
Tog,that's possibly the worst advice you can give about unarmed defense against a gun.All this nonsense about tying up a gun by dropping the magazine or grabbing the cylinder is virtually impossible,that's for Hollyweird movies....

Smith ans Wesson auto's won't fire if the magazine is not in place, even with a live round in the chamber. This was billed as a safety feature of the pistol for law enforcement. If a bad guy wrestled for the gun the officer was supposed to drop the magazine to prevent it from firing. For other types it cuts the numbr of chanced from a possible 18 rounds to 1. If that oen round can be fired in a safe direction, all the better. Even the mag can't be dropped, pressure of the hand on the slide may cause it to not cycle enough to pick up the next round which means it will have to be cleared. Yeah, that will be bad for your hand, but it still beats letting a free shot in. As for a revolver, it doesn't take a whole lot of pressure from a palm against the cylinder to prevent the cylinder from turning when the trigger is pulled. If the cylinder can't turn, the gun can't fire unless it was already cocked. See the Jack Ruby shooting of LHO for an example of this.

Yes, I agree that unarmed vs. a gun has an incredibly low chance of success, but if the guy is close enough to grab, I still feel that will be more effective than trying to Van Damme kick it out of his hand, especially for a person that has never studied any form of martial arts. I also implied that this would be a last resort type of thing. If you are sure your going to be killed anyway, may as well die with their neck in your hand. I'd rather loose some skin off of my hand than take two in the chest regardless.

The skill of the shooter would come into play here as well. Someone that knows what they're doing will not give the unarmed person a chance to get anywhere near them. In that case, the gun is too far away and if they want to shoot you, you're pretty much shot.

One of the gun magazines did an article explaining how to use a gun to defend yourself from a martial artist (no that's not backwards). We passed it around the studio and every single thing in that article assumed that the MA user would kick the gun out of the person's hand. As a 15 year vet of MA and a 30+ year shooter, I can only hope that if I ever find myslef in a situation where I have to face a gun, the other guy read that article and practiced everything they told him.

So in the end I stand by what I said, but I guess I should have been more clear. Going unarmed against a gun is a last resort sort of thing. Without a good deal of practice, trying to knock the gun away will most likely fail due to the timing issues involved. Grabbing the gun or the gun arm will give a person a small chance of getting lucky and getting hit with something less deadly than the bullet. Especially if the person has no unarmed training. When it comes to chances, I'll take hoplessly slim over none.

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-23, 08:08 PM
Smith and Wesson auto's won't fire if the magazine is not in place, even with a live round in the chamber.

And that's why I'll stick with my 1911s,I don't like magazine disconnects.



pressure of the hand on the slide may cause it to not cycle enough to pick up the next round which means it will have to be cleared. Yeah, that will be bad for your hand, but it still beats letting a free shot in.


And as you jerk your hand back,an experienced shooter'll have that jam cleared in a second or 2.


As for a revolver, it doesn't take a whole lot of pressure from a palm against the cylinder to prevent the cylinder from turning when the trigger is pulled.


Lets hope it's not already cocked.

Not tryin' to give you a hard time,I'm on your side,but I've had some pretty inane conversations with people who thought they could go up against an armed man,mostly based on what they see in the movies."I'll just kick it out of his hand",no,you won't,you'll get shot.

Running away is a viable defense against a gun,your average crook can't shoot worth beans & a moving target is much harder to hit.

I agree with your earlier comment about learning self-defense in some place that smells,rather than a fancy place with awards.I personally know of 2 incidents where a guy said "I know karate!",went into a stance,then proceeded to have the snot beat out of him by the experienced street fighter he decided to take on.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-25, 12:19 AM
[steven seagal] while muttering a sarcastic comment...

From what I've seen, Steven Seagal breathes out his lines rather than even muttering them.

"do you want it in cash, or in plastic"

Tog
2006-Sep-25, 09:09 AM
And that's why I'll stick with my 1911s,I don't like magazine disconnects.

I don't care for them either.

And as you jerk your hand back,an experienced shooter'll have that jam cleared in a second or 2.

But then, an experienced shooter will probably not let you get close enough for it to be a concern.

Lets hope it's not already cocked.

That is a valid point, but I can only see two common reasons why they would. An experienced shooter might do it to make a more accurate shot on a target further out. Any shooter might do it for intimidation. Something about that noise just gets your attention.

Not tryin' to give you a hard time,I'm on your side,but I've had some pretty inane conversations with people who thought they could go up against an armed man,mostly based on what they see in the movies."I'll just kick it out of his hand",no,you won't,you'll get shot.

I have too, but from both sides. I've talked to people who thought that merely owning a gun made them invincible. They never bothered to practice with it or anything, they just assume that having it is enough. I've also talked to people that thought they were fast enough to take the gun away.

Running away is a viable defense against a gun,your average crook can't shoot worth beans & a moving target is much harder to hit.

Agreed, to a point. If there is a bit of distance between you already and you can run some way other than straight away, it might work. Starting from arms length, they don't have to be that good. One night at the range we tried a set "gangster style"; tiping the gun on it's side. At 5 yards, nearly every shooter (about 30) missed the target a foot or more to the left, for right handed shooters.

I agree with your earlier comment about learning self-defense in some place that smells,rather than a fancy place with awards.I personally know of 2 incidents where a guy said "I know karate!",went into a stance,then proceeded to have the snot beat out of him by the experienced street fighter he decided to take on.

I watched a private lesson at one school where the student asked where a particular kick should be aimed. The "instructor" said to the head. She said she made all of her kicks the head beacasue the judges like high kicks.:wall: I really hate tournament schools.

Tog
2006-Sep-25, 09:13 AM
From what I've seen, Steven Seagal breathes out his lines rather than even muttering them.
The good martial arts instructor I had took a trip to Napa Valley to see a vineyard. He was told that if he'd gotten there just an hour sooner he could have met Johnny Carson and Steven Segal. He said, "Oh that sucks. I would have like to have met Carson." Segal was not well thought of at any studio I attended.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-25, 11:26 AM
I can't really judge his martial arts as I know too little about MA or his skills (though I do see his movies are totally unrealistic, one against 20 and not being beaten to fruit juice within 10 seconds). I do see however that his acting isn't parcticularly marvelous and his voice is just ridiculously whispering. Sometimes he says a whole line without making a sound. Good thing weve got subtitles ;).

Tog
2006-Sep-25, 12:13 PM
I can't really judge his martial arts as I know too little about MA or his skills (though I do see his movies are totally unrealistic, one against 20 and not being beaten to fruit juice within 10 seconds). I do see however that his acting isn't parcticularly marvelous and his voice is just ridiculously whispering. Sometimes he says a whole line without making a sound. Good thing weve got subtitles ;).

I feel the same way about Van Damme. :D Oh he's loud, he just needs subtitles. I think Segal is just using his "scary voice".

In an early interview, he said that he was up for the lead in My Left Foot and hinted that it was a political motive rather than an acting ability one that lost him the role. Pfft. There aren't really any martial arts actors that can actually act. Well Jackie Chan sort of. Brandon Lee may have been good, but we'll never know. Segal also made a number of claims about his past that were debunked in a few magazines. If you can stomach The Glimmer Man for anout 30 minutes, there is one of the most obvious "stunt kicker" scenes ever. It was so bad that it might have been out of a Benny Hill episode. The one where he was in a coma for several years has a great example of why he used a stunt kicker in the other film. His Aikido is decent and he could probably use it, but nowhere near as well as he does on screen. Heck, if Hawking had those stunt men he would look unbeatable too.:p

Aikido does deal a lot with mass attack, and it's possible to hold off quite a few unarmed people with it, until you get tired. Basically, any more than three just get in each other's way. My instructor went against 5 of us one day and all 5 of us ended up pressed into a corner gettig mauled. The other cool thing about aikido, real aikido, is there are no attacks. It's wrong to hit. And you can't really understand it until you are too old to use force. It's all about timing and momentum.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-25, 12:41 PM
Somebody once explained Aikido to me as "that what makes your attacker end up in bad shape against a wall or down the stairs and you trying to convince the police of the fact that you barely touched him"

I know very little of self defence (3 karate lessons, 2 judo...) and nothing about Aikido, but from one experience I do know that there are some very nifty transformations of energy that give the attacker quite a disadvantage. Once when I was really young (10 or less) I heard a conversation of 2 guys behind me. The larger one of them (he was a bit large for his age) had taken some self defence lessons and was bragging about it with his mate. I had my back to them, and was standing a few meters further. I heard him saying he was going to demonstrate by taking me down. I did not turn around and continued looking at the football as I had been doing all the time (what a demonstration btw, taking down somebody who doesn't even see you :)).

I heard and felt him running towards me (on the grass you can feel the bounces of even light threaded runs), and somewhere between the moment he jumped up and put his hand on my upper back, I bent 2/3rd forward. I felt his hand on my back, which much aginst his intentions only served to keep separation between his body and mine during his ballistic path over me. He smacked onto the grass ahead of me, and I was still standing. Sheer luck in timing and effect from my side, but somebody who knows a range of this tricks through practice has a very strong non-weapon against an attacker. Of course there's still the part of explaining he basically threw himself down the stairs and you didn't push him.

jaydeehess
2006-Sep-25, 05:32 PM
Wiring a house:::

Simple house voltage wired to the window bars and to the door locks with a switch that energizes these only when the owner wants it energized(good idea to put a rubber sleeve and a warning light inside the doorways though)

Energize the windows at all times(anyone coming in that way is up to no good) but remember to deactivate them when the wife tells you to clean the outside of the windows.
Energize the door handles at 10 pm, anyone coming to the door is gloing to knock first anyway and if they don't they are up to no good.

You might have to set a metal plate or grid in front of the doors and ground them and you can put in a current limiter to say 750 milliamps. that will have people dancing and shouting but they will probably still be able to let go of the energized item and live.

edited to add: I did not see the multiple pages in this thread. If anyone already suggested exactly this,,, my bad- D'oh

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-25, 05:48 PM
Dunno about up there in the Great White North,but booby-traps are highly illegal in the US.

jaydeehess
2006-Sep-25, 05:55 PM
Somebody once explained Aikido to me as "that what makes your attacker end up in bad shape against a wall or down the stairs and you trying to convince the police of the fact that you barely touched him"

I know very little of self defence (3 karate lessons, 2 judo...) and nothing about Aikido, but from one experience I do know that there are some very nifty transformations of energy that give the attacker quite a disadvantage. Once when I was really young (10 or less) I heard a conversation of 2 guys behind me. The larger one of them (he was a bit large for his age) had taken some self defence lessons and was bragging about it with his mate. I had my back to them, and was standing a few meters further. I heard him saying he was going to demonstrate by taking me down. I did not turn around and continued looking at the football as I had been doing all the time (what a demonstration btw, taking down somebody who doesn't even see you :)).

I heard and felt him running towards me (on the grass you can feel the bounces of even light threaded runs), and somewhere between the moment he jumped up and put his hand on my upper back, I bent 2/3rd forward. I felt his hand on my back, which much aginst his intentions only served to keep separation between his body and mine during his ballistic path over me. He smacked onto the grass ahead of me, and I was still standing. Sheer luck in timing and effect from my side, but somebody who knows a range of this tricks through practice has a very strong non-weapon against an attacker. Of course there's still the part of explaining he basically threw himself down the stairs and you didn't push him.

I managed to get one belt above white in Judo(yellow belt). I remember the first time I actually threw an opponent and it all clicked just right. It was effortless and the guy who was a little taller and a little heavier went sailing over my head onto the mat. Later on the Sensai had us all practice on him.(Shoulder throw classic throw, I forget the Japanese name for it) He was 6 foot tall and 300 pounds if he was an ounce. Granted he assisted us all in throwing him but you knew right away if you were doing it wrong when suddenly you were trying to support a 300 pound man on your back!

Other less involved self defense moves are available though of course, punch to the throat, grabbing just the front of the throat and squeezing (as opposed to trying to put your fingers around a throat this is more akin to trying to pull a windpipe out), eye pokes, knee breakers(ram(kick) the inside of a knee pushing it 90 degrees to the normal direction of a knee's bend), ankle breaker(step on the outside of the foot and shove the attacker in the same direction, the foot stays level while the leg and body tip over in the 90 opposite direction of normal ankle bend) and the old standby for male attackers(need I say more?)

However all of these may serve to hurt the attacker just enough to make him literraly mad(as opposed to simply angry). If one is going to use a move on an attacker it is only to buy time in order to get away. If you stick around you are committed to completely incapacitating the attacker or even killing him. Only in martial arts films does the good guy extend a an arm and motion the attacker to come and get some more.

jaydeehess
2006-Sep-25, 06:00 PM
Dunno about up there in the Great White North,but booby-traps are highly illegal in the US.

Yes, they are illegal here too. Better take out the current limiter so that you can drag the corpse away and dispose of it near a hydro pole somewhere.

All tongue in cheek , I assure you.

In fact keeping a loaded gun in the house is illegal in Canada. The firearm and ammo must be locked in separate compartments. Need to confront a burglar in your house, keep a 7-iron handy.

Strider1974
2006-Sep-25, 11:53 PM
Wiring a house:::

Simple house voltage wired to the window bars and to the door locks with a switch that energizes these only when the owner wants it energized(good idea to put a rubber sleeve and a warning light inside the doorways though)

Energize the windows at all times(anyone coming in that way is up to no good) but remember to deactivate them when the wife tells you to clean the outside of the windows.
Energize the door handles at 10 pm, anyone coming to the door is gloing to knock first anyway and if they don't they are up to no good.

You might have to set a metal plate or grid in front of the doors and ground them and you can put in a current limiter to say 750 milliamps. that will have people dancing and shouting but they will probably still be able to let go of the energized item and live.

edited to add: I did not see the multiple pages in this thread. If anyone already suggested exactly this,,, my bad- D'oh


You want to be careful with the above
I remember years back a Newcastle (NSW, Australia) man made an electric fence for his marijuana plants using house voltage (240V).
Imagine his surprise when he found a would-be thief dead in his garden.
Since the guy was an electrician he was charged for murder.


As for Segal
"On the set of one movie, he challenged a stuntman, who was a black belt in judo, to try to choke him out, a judo technique in which pressure is applied to the carotid artery in the neck until the victim is rendered temporarily unconscious. According to one source, Seagal claimed to be impervious to the technique. He was wrong. The producers of the film became frantic when they saw their NBA-sized star lying unconscious on the ground."
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Sep-26, 09:46 AM
Yes, they are illegal here too. Better take out the current limiter so that you can drag the corpse away and dispose of it near a hydro pole somewhere.

All tongue in cheek , I assure you.

In fact keeping a loaded gun in the house is illegal in Canada. The firearm and ammo must be locked in separate compartments. Need to confront a burglar in your house, keep a 7-iron handy.
Ya' See ...

This Would NEVER Fly in The US, Second Amendment and All ...

Guess The Darn Thiing, Is Worth Somethin' Anyway!

:think:

Nicolas
2006-Sep-26, 12:05 PM
Worth the amount of firearms accidents per year?

-we should think about the politics rules on this board-

Moose
2006-Sep-26, 12:12 PM
Local radio this morning reported that there's a place in Ohio that has passed, or is considering, a bylaw requiring each household to own at least one handgun.

I'm about to go looking for details.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-26, 12:18 PM
What is that obsession with guns overthere? Overhere the norm is not owning one. Owning a gun is not standard at all; having a gun with you on the street is good enough to have you taken into custody.

Yet a man with a nail in a stick does not rule the country. If they were a bit more rational on the self defence laws, he would have even less to say.

Tog
2006-Sep-26, 12:40 PM
Worth the amount of firearms accidents per year?

-we should think about the politics rules on this board-

This is probably a way gray area, but here is a chart (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html) taken from data from the National Saftey Council on accidental deaths. The numbers are fairly surprising.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Sep-26, 12:59 PM
What is that obsession with guns overthere? Overhere the norm is not owning one. Owning a gun is not standard at all; having a gun with you on the street is good enough to have you taken into custody.

Yet a man with a nail in a stick does not rule the country. If they were a bit more rational on the self defence laws, he would have even less to say.
It Goes Back to Colonial Tiimes, Only The Wealthy and Connected Had The Riight to Hunt and Own Fire Arms ...

Part of What The American Revolution Was All About, Was Trying to Put Everyone on an Equal Footing, at Least in The Eyes of The Law ...

As for The Law Prohibiting Loaded Guns, Back-Door Laws Liike That One Have Always Rubbed me The Wrong Way, The ONLY Thiing they Do Is Get Otherwiise Prepared People Killed By Delaying their Access to Lawful Weapons, As for The Argument it Keeps Children Safe Siimple Lock up your Gun Laws Moore than Suffice, If your Child Is Deft Enough to Piick One Lock he's Quiite Capable of Piicking Two!

Nicolas
2006-Sep-26, 01:42 PM
This is probably a way gray area, but here is a chart (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html) taken from data from the National Saftey Council on accidental deaths. The numbers are fairly surprising.

600 deaths per year for 300 million people (correct?), that would be 20 accidental deaths per year in Belgium at the same rate. I'm quite sure citizens who aren't involved in criminal activities themselves don't shoot that many attackers on purpose per year overhere. (Im not counting suicide and family dramas).

Tog
2006-Sep-26, 02:45 PM
What is that obsession with guns overthere? Overhere the norm is not owning one. Owning a gun is not standard at all; having a gun with you on the street is good enough to have you taken into custody.

Yet a man with a nail in a stick does not rule the country. If they were a bit more rational on the self defence laws, he would have even less to say.

My own opinion on why there is such a fervor over guns in the US is mainly that we've always had them. All, or nearly all of Europe was stlled and established long before there were reliable guns. By the time that little disagreement in the latter part of the 1700s broke out over here, guns were the norm for both the military and the average hunter.

When you look at the expansion west, the whole era is about guns.

In Europe, the stories were about Robin Hood, King Arthur, and William Tell; whereas here it was Doc Holliday, Annie Oakley, and Buffalo Bill. An early staple of the movie businiess over here were westerns, with a lot of gunfights. Guns are a part of the US culture. Until 1968, there were practically no limitations on owning them. Now you have to submit to a background check every time you buy one from a dealer. A lot of people see that as infringing on their personal rights. I'm a gun owner. I own about a dozen. I have no problem with the fact that there is a slip of paper out there somewhere that says I have them.

Part of the problem though is that there tend to be three groups when it comes to guns. There is the "Gun Nut" who wants unrestricted access to all types of guns no matter what. There is the "Anti Gun Nut" who feels that all guns are evil and should be wiped off the face of the earth. Then there is the majority. Pepole that think education, personal resposibility, and a bit of common sense can make guns a non-issue over all. It just seems that only the first two ever seem to get any airtime.

As for the totals on that chart, it would probobly be best to consider the number of guns or gun owners for the comparison. The problem is that it's impossible to really know how many guns there are in the US, and even if there was a list of the number of registered owners, there are still many people that do not have any registered guns.

Personally, I know of 6 accidents involving guns. All 6 shot, or nearly shot, themsleves. None were fatal. One was improper handling during a shooting event (blew off the tip of his own finger), four were experienced shooters that did something stupid, and one was a kid that found a gun in his dad's dresser and started playing with it. One of the stupid ones was a person that suffered significant hearing loss when a rifle went off in his closet as he moved it. He forgot to unload it. I'm not adding the time I shot my own shoelace off in this because there was no injury. It would go in the "doing something stupid" category though. I forgot to put it on safe and left my finger on the trigger:o.

Where I live, it takes $100, 4 hours in a class, and 6 weeks to get a permit to carry a loaded gun on the street, or anywhere that isn't a federal building or court. In some states (Vermont) you don't even need that. Simply living there and being felony free is qualification enough. Other states, a permit to carry a gun is impossible to get. In the city of Boston, handguns are banned outright, though rifles and shotguns are legal. If a police officer pulls you over, you tell him you have a concealed firearm permit ans where the gun is. They will either remove it from you or ask you to remove and unload it, then wait until they leave before you reload it. It's when they find it before you tell them that gets the adrenalin going.

Edit to add:

600 deaths per year for 300 million people (correct?), that would be 20 accidental deaths per year in Belgium at the same rate. I'm quite sure citizens who aren't involved in criminal activities themselves don't shoot that many attackers on purpose per year overhere. (Im not counting suicide and family dramas).
Probably not, but them you don't have to actually shoot someone for the gun to be effective. There are many cases where the intruder is held for the police or simply fightened away.

SeanF
2006-Sep-26, 03:01 PM
600 deaths per year for 300 million people (correct?), that would be 20 accidental deaths per year in Belgium at the same rate.
Correct.


I'm quite sure citizens who aren't involved in criminal activities themselves don't shoot that many attackers on purpose per year overhere.
I'm not quite sure this is a relevant comparison. If we're looking to do a cost-benefit analysis of gun ownership, the proper comparison would be innocent lives lost vs. innocent lives saved. As Tog_ has already pointed out, innocent lives lost vs. "guilty" lives lost is meaningless.

Musashi
2006-Sep-26, 03:39 PM
Worth the amount of firearms accidents per year?

-we should think about the politics rules on this board-

Yes and yes.

Musashi
2006-Sep-26, 03:46 PM
600 deaths per year for 300 million people (correct?), that would be 20 accidental deaths per year in Belgium at the same rate. I'm quite sure citizens who aren't involved in criminal activities themselves don't shoot that many attackers on purpose per year overhere. (Im not counting suicide and family dramas).

Also, I am not sure on those particular stats, but a lot of stats count suicides and such in the accidents category.

Gillianren
2006-Sep-26, 05:54 PM
Now you have to submit to a background check every time you buy one from a dealer. A lot of people see that as infringing on their personal rights. I'm a gun owner. I own about a dozen. I have no problem with the fact that there is a slip of paper out there somewhere that says I have them.

Good for you! I'm afraid the only gun owner I know, you know, in the real world, sees it as a bit of an infringement. Granted, he also has a concealed weapons permit, but I'm not sure he thinks he ought to need one. Besides, re background checks . . . I know Lee Harvey Oswald wouldn't've passed one, and I'm pretty sure neither would Charles Guiteau or John Hinckley, Jr.

Edit: Also, I think it would be a bad idea to include suicides and accidents in the same category. There's a little matter of intent that would mean you might as well include murders.

Frantic Freddie
2006-Sep-26, 06:20 PM
It depends on the state or municipality,but in all states when you buy a gun from a dealer you have to fill out a Form 4473,but in many states-such as mine-a person can buy a gun from an individual with no paperwork,I have several I've bought.

Nicolas
2006-Sep-26, 06:43 PM
Correct.


I'm not quite sure this is a relevant comparison. If we're looking to do a cost-benefit analysis of gun ownership, the proper comparison would be innocent lives lost vs. innocent lives saved. As Tog_ has already pointed out, innocent lives lost vs. "guilty" lives lost is meaningless.

Agreed. Of course you can never make a meaningful "innocent lives saved" statistic, as in many cases you cannot prove you would have been killed if you didn't have a gun.

Moose
2006-Sep-26, 06:58 PM
Agreed. Of course you can never make a meaningful "innocent lives saved" statistic, as in many cases you cannot prove you would have been killed if you didn't have a gun.

You also cannot make a far more meaningful comparison of innocent lives taken/saved per capita where guns are involved vs innocent lives taken/saved per capita where guns aren't involved.

mugaliens
2006-Oct-13, 11:09 PM
Uh, Sanity: If someone really wants to invade your home, he/she merely need to drive through your front door or front window, as appropriate, then either shoot you or steal whatever they wish.

I pray to God that such never happens, and if I ever know about the who, then I'll investigate...

Bottom line - no one's safe. Get a personal security team if you want security. You'll have to pay for it, though.

mugaliens
2006-Oct-16, 05:03 PM
Yep, loud pets. I don't think many amatuer burglars would be nervy enough to hang around with our dogs going nuts making noise. And we have nothing a professional burglar would want.

Personally, I think loud guns are more effective, particularly when they're pointed in the right direction.

mugaliens
2006-Oct-16, 05:07 PM
Agreed. Of course you can never make a meaningful "innocent lives saved" statistic, as in many cases you cannot prove you would have been killed if you didn't have a gun.

In most municipalities that's not a requirement for a ruling of self-defense if you shoot an intruder in your domicile. In those municipalities, the rate of breaking and entering is generally significantly lower than it is among municipalities which tend to criminalizing protecting life, limb, or property.

tlbs101
2006-Oct-17, 11:04 PM
Bad News!

A relative's home was burglarized last week. They live in a gated community with 'real' 24-hour/day guards on duty, and limited access to the community. Furthermore, their home has decorative but functional iron gates and windows, along with an alarm system that they use properly. And, of course good quality locks are also used.

This (these) burglars were so determined to get in, that they simply ripped out the iron gate on the front door, and rammed the door in (obviously with a vehicle or power tools). They had obviously cased the neighborhood to determine patterns of comings and goings on the block. How they got in to case the neighborhood in the first place is beyond me.

I still don't have the details on how or if they disabled the alarm system.

Point: If a burglar wants to steal your stuff bad enough, maybe there isn't a whole lot you can do.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Oct-18, 12:52 AM
Bad News!

A relative's home was burglarized last week. They live in a gated community with 'real' 24-hour/day guards on duty, and limited access to the community. Furthermore, their home has decorative but functional iron gates and windows, along with an alarm system that they use properly. And, of course good quality locks are also used.

This (these) burglars were so determined to get in, that they simply ripped out the iron gate on the front door, and rammed the door in (obviously with a vehicle or power tools). They had obviously cased the neighborhood to determine patterns of comings and goings on the block. How they got in to case the neighborhood in the first place is beyond me.

I still don't have the details on how or if they disabled the alarm system.

Point: If a burglar wants to steal your stuff bad enough, maybe there isn't a whole lot you can do.
This Is What Home-Owner's Insurance Is FOR ...

Lock your Place Down Liike a Fortress ...

But, Have a Back-Up Plan, Juust in Case The Burglar Briings his Own Private Army!

:wall: