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Mainframes
2003-May-07, 11:58 AM
I was watching The Weakest Link last night and there was a question about astronomy in which Anne R. read out the name of Betelgeuse but pronounced it 'Beetlejuice'. This got me to thinking how is the name actually said, I always imagined it was of german origin and hence pronunciation and not the same as a Michael Keaton character.

Any comments?

Pinemarten
2003-May-07, 12:03 PM
She was right. It sounds like the liquid that comes out when you squash a bug. Beetle juice.

Argos
2003-May-07, 12:18 PM
Here about the pronunciation:

http://www.wsanford.com/~wsanford/exo/pronunciation_guide.html

Here´s a little history:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/B0214700.html

kucharek
2003-May-07, 12:53 PM
Michael Collins, Command Module Pilot of Apollo 11, writes in his book "Carrying the Fire" about all the strange names of stars he had to memorize for navigation. He writes, that he pronounced it also "beetlejuice".

As someone mentioned German: We write it "Beteigeuze", but I don't know how to tell how we pronounce it. I'm pretty sure there are no stars with names of German origin (I mean, the bigger one's), I think most are from the Arabs.

Harald

Mainframes
2003-May-07, 01:49 PM
Cheers people!

Argos
2003-May-07, 02:02 PM
As someone mentioned German: We write it "Beteigeuze", but I don't know how to tell how we pronounce it.
Harald

Perhaps "Peh-ty-goize" :)

kucharek
2003-May-07, 02:09 PM
As someone mentioned German: We write it "Beteigeuze", but I don't know how to tell how we pronounce it.
Harald

Perhaps "Peh-ty-guys." :)

Sorry, no. :-)
Let's give it a try:

Be like in be-ll
tei like in ti-dy
geu rhymes with boi-ng
ze like tse A German z is not a voiced s, but a hard sound like ts

Harald - waiting for your little soundfiles :lol:

informant
2003-May-07, 02:12 PM
Well, according to that second link in Argos's post, it isn't pronounced exactly like "beetle juice". More like "beetle jooze", or "betle jooze".

Mainframes
2003-May-07, 02:35 PM
Well, according to that second link in Argos's post, it isn't pronounced exactly like "beetle juice". More like "beetle jooze", or "betle jooze".

Thats what i was thinking. I think it sounds dumb if it's pronounced beetlejuice. And remember don't say it three times or you'll summon a nice big star to fry our planet....!

informant
2003-May-07, 02:44 PM
:) Loved that cartoon show. The original picture was good too.

Mainframes
2003-May-07, 03:26 PM
Well, according to that second link in Argos's post, it isn't pronounced exactly like "beetle juice". More like "beetle jooze", or "betle jooze".

Thats what i was thinking. I think it sounds dumb if it's pronounced beetlejuice. And remember don't say it three times or you'll summon a nice big star to fry our planet....!

Then the PX'ers will have a field day with that. Of course assuming anyone is still alive......

CJSF
2003-May-07, 03:33 PM
I have seen it in varous sources as "BET-el-jooz" - short 'e', emphasis on first syllable. I've heard it said by my astronomy friends as '"Beelte-jooz".

American Heritige Dictionary says this (http://www.bartleby.com/61/47/B0214700.html).

Earth & Sky has a link that says "BET-el-jooz" here (http://www.earthsky.com/Features/Skywatching/pronounce.html). You have to click a link to pop open the Betelgeuse window.

Infoplease's encyclopedia has it this way (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0807314.html).

CJSF

tracer
2003-May-07, 03:39 PM
I always imagined it was of german origin
From Argos's second link:

"ETYMOLOGY: French Bételgeuse, ultimately from Arabic yad al-jawzā’ "

So it ain't German, it's French. That means it should be pronounced "Throat-Warbler Mangrove."

Senor Molinero
2003-May-07, 10:54 PM
But it's not spelt "Raymond Luxury-Yacht"

Dancar
2003-May-08, 03:16 PM
Speaking of astronimical pronounciations, are the Uranus pronounciations of 'yer anus and urine-is both correct?

Either way, a junior high science teacher can't stop the giggles.

Dancar

Mainframes
2003-May-08, 04:21 PM
I always imagined it was of german origin
From Argos's second link:

"ETYMOLOGY: French Bételgeuse, ultimately from Arabic yad al-jawzā’ "

So it ain't German, it's French. That means it should be pronounced "Throat-Warbler Mangrove."

Good thing i'm not dreaming of being an Etymologist then....

Colt
2003-May-08, 06:14 PM
"Beteigeuze" I guess I will give it a try: Betihgootse (e is silent on the end)

Uranus is pronounced "yer-an-us" soft a.

As for pronouncing Betelgeuse... I usually don't, just read over it in my head. :D -Colt

Eta C
2003-May-08, 08:34 PM
Speaking of astronimical pronounciations, are the Uranus pronounciations of 'yer anus and urine-is both correct?

Either way, a junior high science teacher can't stop the giggles.

Dancar

You could give it the Greek pronunciation "Ouranos" (accent on the last syllable). That avoids the scatalogical implications of the English pronunciations.

informant
2003-May-08, 09:26 PM
Speaking of astronimical pronounciations, are the Uranus pronounciations of 'yer anus and urine-is both correct?

Either way, a junior high science teacher can't stop the giggles.

Dancar

You could give it the Greek pronunciation "Ouranos" (accent on the last syllable). That avoids the scatalogical implications of the English pronunciations.

The Greek pronunciation would force you to use an awkward stress (last syllable), and different sounds. The proper stress for English is Uranus, not Uranus, and the reason has nothing to do with scatological implications.

Dancar
2003-May-08, 10:53 PM
You could give it the Greek pronunciation "Ouranos" (accent on the last syllable). That avoids the scatalogical implications of the English pronunciations.

A junior high science teacher would then have to worry about a parent complaining that his kids are being taught about Planet X from zetatalk.com ;)

(I'm not a teacher - just having some fun on the message board)

Dancar

tracer
2003-May-09, 05:56 AM
Or, since "Uranus" is the Latin spelling, you could always pronounce it oo-RAH-noos, like the Ancient Romans would've.

Comixx
2003-May-09, 07:45 AM
I usually say:

BEHtel geese
YOUran us

I just like to sound snobbish when I say them :)

Pinemarten
2003-May-09, 07:46 AM
Or, since "Uranus" is the Latin spelling, you could always pronounce it oo-RAH-noos, like the Ancient Romans would've.

I am confused again. I thought modern linguists have no idea as to the original pronounciation of latin?
More B I learned in school?

informant
2003-May-09, 12:38 PM
I am confused again. I thought modern linguists have no idea as to the original pronounciation of latin?
More B I learned in school?

It's always difficult to be sure about languages spoken centuries ago, when there were no tape recorders, and phonetics did not exist.
But consider this:
In all languages derived from Latin, the typical sound of most vowels is almost exactly the same: e.g. a=ah (never 'ay'), e=like in 'bet' (never 'ee'), i=ee (never pronounced eye), etc. Not only that, but the sounds in non-Romance languages that adapted the Latin alphabet, like German or Dutch, usually agree with this. So it isn't difficult to figure out what was the likely "original" generic value of most letters.
The details can be more complicated. For instance, I don't think anyone knows for certain what the "musical stress" of ancient Greek and ancient Latin sounded like. (They seemed to "sing" their words, rather than stress certain syllables as modern European languages tend to do.)

There is little doubt about the stress of Latin words, though, because the rhymes they used in their poetry were based on it.

nebularain
2003-May-09, 02:37 PM
Don't Roman Catholics still speak Latin for some of their prayers'n such?

Mainframes
2003-May-09, 03:16 PM
They do, but over the couple of thousand years that they have been using latin in their religon it surely will have gone through some sort of evolution as does any language. Maybe not in a written sense but surely the pronunciation will have changed.

tracer
2003-May-09, 03:22 PM
Not just "surely" -- definitely. Roman Catholics use an entirely different system of Latin pronunciation than the ancient Romans did.

The Catholic pronunciation system is called "ecclesiastical Latin"; if you've ever heard a choir sing a Latin mass, you've heard ecclesiastical Latin. It borrows many of its pronunciation rules from medieval Italian. F'rinstance:
In ecclesiastical Latin, a "v" is pronounced like an English "v". (A "v" is pronounced like an English "w" in classical Latin.)
In ecclesiastical Latin, the dipthong "ae" is pronounced like the English word "eye". (In classical Latin, "ae" is pronounced like Fonzie saying "aaaaay.")
In ecclesiastical Latin, an "h" at the beginning of a word isn't pronounced at all. (It's pronounced like an English "h" in classical Latin.)
In ecclesiastical Latin, "coe" is pronounced like the name of the South American revolutionary "Che." (In classical Latin, it sounds like the English word "coy.")
In ecclesiastical Latin, "g" and "c" are pronounced like an English "j" or "s" when followed by an E or an I, that is, they become soft consonants. (In classical Latin, "g" and "c" are always hard.)

tracer
2003-May-09, 03:28 PM
In all languages derived from Latin, the typical sound of most vowels is almost exactly the same: e.g. a=ah (never 'ay'), e=like in 'bet' (never 'ee'), i=ee (never pronounced eye), etc. Not only that, but the sounds in non-Romance languages that adapted the Latin alphabet, like German or Dutch, usually agree with this. So it isn't difficult to figure out what was the likely "original" generic value of most letters.
[ ... ]
There is little doubt about the stress of Latin words, though, because the rhymes they used in their poetry were based on it.
Another piece of evidence we have for the pronunciation of classical Latin comes from, of all places, Latin puns.

One famous Latin pun, circulated after the murder of Julius Caesar, involved Caesar hearing a fig seller crying "cauneas!" (Latin for "figs!"). The joke was, the fig seller was actually saying "cave ne eas!" (Latin for "beware lest you go!"), and Caesar failed to heed the warning. From that pun, we can discern that "cave" is pronounced similarly to "cau".

Darkwing
2003-May-09, 03:56 PM
In ecclesiastical Latin, the dipthong "ae" is pronounced like the English word "eye". (In classical Latin, "ae" is pronounced like Fonzie saying "aaaaay.")


I think you got this one backwards. The way I was taught Latin, the diphthing "ae" is pronounced like English "eye" in classical Latin, while it's "ay" in ecclesiastical latin.

In a similar vein, my latin teacher once said that a clue to pronunciation was that the Greek spelled "Caesar" like this: kappa alpha iota sigma alpha rho (afaik I can't use the actual greek letters here) Using Roman letters, that's Kaisar, whose pronuncation is markedly different than Modern English's "Seezer"

(edited to blow away some unnecessary bbcode)

tracer
2003-May-09, 07:05 PM
I think you got this one backwards. The way I was taught Latin, the diphthing "ae" is pronounced like English "eye" in classical Latin, while it's "ay" in ecclesiastical latin.
D'OH! You're right. How could I forget the ecclesiastical phrase "Requiem Aeternam" (pronounced WRECK-we-em eh-TARE-nahm)?

traztx
2003-May-12, 05:32 PM
Don't Roman Catholics still speak Latin for some of their prayers'n such?

Just for nostalgia, as far as I know. But the pronunciation comes from traditions and has been recorded in textbooks used in latin classes.

Before the Vatican II council meetings last century, the entire mass was in Latin and you could travel the entire planet , visit any catholic church, and understand it just as well as the one down the street. That wouldn't help me much, though, because I only know pig-latin.