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g99
2003-May-11, 03:50 AM
O.K. i just saw the latests enterprise on tape. I have to say, i love the Borg, but give me a break. That was a horrible episode.

Spoilers......




















They threw continuity right out the window. Not to mention just plain stupidity and science. So TNG has never heard of the Borg, yet obviously they have evidence of Borg technology, scans, and photgraphs of the Borg. They even have some of the borg nano's. So they just cover this up and never tell the captains of any starship about this?

What in the cliffhanger of this season they encounter Q? Give me a break paramount. Think of more origonal episodes other than the Borg (and most likely a Q episode). Starfleet isnt supposed to encounter them untill TNG (altought Shatner says the machines in the motion picture were borg too).

And somehow the 22nd centuy weapons can defeat more borg than 24th century? So a 24th century phaser can kill only one borg before they adapt, yet a 22nd century phaser can kill almost a dozen?

Also i did note one continuity error. One of the big main characters says something about "not even a holographic bullet can kill them". I thought that they didn't have holodecks then.


O.K. so somehow in only a few hours the borg can convert a entire cargo ship to almost 5 times its origonal speed, create transporters, and create weapon emitters. Huh? I know they are cool and all powerful, but that is impossible even with their super advanced nano's.

And how did Dr. Phlox remove all of the borg implants? I Thought that Crusher barely removed them from captain Picard without killing him, how did phlox remove them on himself? (And don't get me going on why a spaceship only has one compitent doctor)

Uhhhgggg..... :evil:

Wingnut Ninja
2003-May-11, 05:10 AM
It seems that Enterprise has already thrown continuity out the window, and this is just pounding another nail in the coffin. Ironically, it's been shown, and the major consensus is that less-advanced weapons are more effective at dealing with Borg, and this is really just reaffirming that.

Time to lower the odds again on the "last episode is a giant time-travel reset/retcon" theory.

pmcolt
2003-May-11, 05:35 AM
Actually, this episode seems fairly consistent with what I've seen in the past. Let's see:

1) The Borg. No, not the menacing TNG Borg that stood on the brink of capturing Earth, but the "all your base..." Borg that Voyager defeated on a weekly basis.

2) The fine tradition of Starfleet security. They completely failed to contain aliens that they were assigned to contain. I wonder when they'll start wearing redshirts.

3) Starfleet's memory hole. They seem to lose so many useful tidbits of information. Slingshot-effect time travel. Cloaking devices. And somehow, between the 22nd and 24th centuries, Starfleet completely forgets about a 3-km wide crashed Borg sphere found on Earth and a group of drones who nearly destroyed NX-01.


But don't worry, they're still throwing in those one-liner references to the previous series, and soon they'll be back to shooting warmed-over scripts from previous series again.

g99
2003-May-11, 05:58 AM
So what do you guys think about my prediction?:

Since they don't care about any continuity at all in Enterprise. In this seasons season finale, Q will play a major role.


Oh! even better. Twisting wingnuts idea a bit, Q will show up at the last episode of the show and change the whole history of the series so it will follow in accordance to TOS and TNG.

Colt
2003-May-11, 07:20 AM
Hmmm.. I have not seen the episode yet (damnit, I just realized that it was on again tonight. I missed it wednesday and tonight.. Guess I will have to wait for a rerun) but this is how I thought it might go:

Something like a small Borg survey vessel (it has been shown that the Borg have small vessels that are specialized to such tasks as surveying) crashed in the ice and was frozen over; the proto-Borg go into a hibernation mode. Time passes, the ice thickens by a few thousand years (meaning that the Borg encountered wouldn't even be as advanced as those in the 22nd century). It is discovered and communication is lost with the base. By the time that they figure out what is going wrong a rebuilt ship has left Earth and the assimilated base behind. The Terran Federation ( What type of government is the Earth supposed to have at this time exactly? I can't recall right now) sends in some troops but things go bad. Realizing the threat that this poses to the planet they nuke the base out of existence. They command the Enterprise to destroy the escaping Borg vessel on sight but before that can happen some Borg transport over and begin causing mayhem, some story (fight for the ship) ensues. They win and then destroy the Borg ship. The only thing left behind is a few nanoprobes and a Borg arm or leg, the rest being incinerated for fear of it infecting something. Thus, no one knows who or what they were and there is very little evidence left. A mere footnote on the trek of the Enterprise Nx-01 (why no one but a history buff would have heard about it).

I have some questions though. Was it really a sphere that they found? Did the Borg have personal shields? Did they break out the good ol'EM-33s again to fight the Borg with some kinetic weapon goodness? I was hoping that they might do something like that.. -Colt

g99
2003-May-11, 07:31 AM
Colt:

Spoilers........














It was a sphere. It is hinted as the sphere that was destroyed in First contact. The borg were 24th centure borg with personal shileds and everything. They assimilate the artic camp and lanch a reaserch ship they found there. They assimilate the ship and its crew and in the process upgrade the ship. The ship then assimilates another ships crew and it is intercepted by the Enterprise. The enterprise bring aboard two partially asimilated people who were left behind. Unknowing of the dangers they only post one stupid guard. The borg then get fully asimilated and esacpe. In the process they infect Dr. Phlox.

The borg then fiddle with some systems before they are blown out of a airlock (but left unharmed. Sequil anyone?)

So Enterprise then resumes its chase after the fleeing assimilated ship. After a big battle the power to the engines and weapons is cut by the borg. So Archer and some other main character (malcom i think) beam over to the borg ship (why the borg didn't cut power to the transporter i don't know). They destroy the borg on the borg ship with explosive charges and then decide to blast it out of the sky. And that is it. Phlox cures himself with radiation treatment and he comes out fine.

Glom
2003-May-11, 09:52 AM
On a related note, in First Contact, the Borg sphere was visible with the naked eye. That's Good Astronomy.

gethen
2003-May-11, 01:29 PM
I think this episode was in the fine tradition of Star Trek non-continuity established by the original series. How many times did Spock have to spontaneously re-invent some method of time travel to save the Enterprise or her crew? He just never seemed to remember what he did the last time they had to time travel, and always said something about time travel being "theoretically" possible. The only explanation is some sort of human (or Vulcan) mutation that seriously affects our long term memory. :D

R.A.F.
2003-May-11, 01:43 PM
I'm just waiting for the episode where Enterprise is taken over by Space Hippies!!! :)

Donnie B.
2003-May-11, 02:41 PM
They certainly left several doors wide open for sequels.
Spoilers...






















1. Phlox (sp?) may still have a lurking nanoprobe or three.
2. The "spaced" Borg could be recovered.
3. One of the security guys may have been injected by a Borg in hand-to-hand combat. It was a quick shot, maybe it happened, maybe it didn't.
4. We don't know what may have happened to the remains of the arctic base.

I agree with the continuity criticsm. Maybe there was a pandemic of computer viruses that wiped out all the records, everywhere?

Still, I'm enjoying Enterprise. I'm going to have to stop reading these threads before all you nay-sayers ruin the whole thing for me... :evil:

P.S. Colt, awfully good speculations. You're quite close to the mark.

TinFoilHat
2003-May-11, 05:42 PM
Rumor has it that abandoning continuity is intentional. It has already been established that in the Star Trek universe you can change history by going back in time. Apparantly the borg traveling back in time in the movie "First Contact" created a divergent timeline; "Enterprise" is set on that timeline, and not the tile line that led to the rest of the Star Trek shows.

frenat
2003-May-11, 07:03 PM
I agree with tinfoilhat. That is what I had assumed happened when I watched the episode.

Donnie B.
2003-May-11, 09:40 PM
Actually, TOS must have been a different timeline too. After all, by now we should have had the genetic wars that produced Khan Noonian Singh, and other such once-future, now-past historical events...

Glom
2003-May-11, 09:43 PM
I think my now we have to accept that Star Trek occured in a universe far, far away. The Creators don't do themselves any credit by attempting to bypass that.

Colt
2003-May-11, 10:25 PM
P.S. Colt, awfully good speculations. You're quite close to the mark.

Thank you, from what g99 gives of the basic outline it seems that my version of it would have been better and tied up alot more loose ends than that show left open. Yes, my ego is fine, thanks for asking. :wink: -Colt

Elvithriel
2003-May-11, 10:29 PM
Make it an alternate universe (Not the DS9/TOS one). It would free them up and would be less painful then slowly chipping away at the continuity.

If they are going to do it, then just do it.

g99
2003-May-11, 11:28 PM
How about it takes place on a alternate earth on another galaxy or another part of the milky way? It is already shown in the series that there is a altenate earth. So why not another one?

captain swoop
2003-May-12, 08:16 AM
I take each episode as a seperate adventure. If you get too tied up with continuity then things become unwatchable.

Look at Dr Who!

In it's last few seasons they had 'fans' advising on continuity and appearances by old faves like Daleks and Cybermen were so swamped by continuity considerations they were terrible.

Dr Who traveled all over time interfering with things so there was no need for any continuity, when they didn't worry about it they could concentrate on a good story.

I know which one I prefer.

daver
2003-May-12, 04:18 PM
I take each episode as a seperate adventure. If you get too tied up with continuity then things become unwatchable.

Look at Dr Who!

In it's last few seasons they had 'fans' advising on continuity and appearances by old faves like Daleks and Cybermen were so swamped by continuity considerations they were terrible.

Dr Who traveled all over time interfering with things so there was no need for any continuity, when they didn't worry about it they could concentrate on a good story.

I know which one I prefer.

In a good story Phillip Marlowe doesn't take the elevator down from his 20th floor office and grab a donut and climb back up the stairs to his third floor office bemoaning the fact that there is no elevator (and we don't have to concoct wierd explanations like he has two offices in the same building and the elevator to the lower floors isn't working while the elevator to the upper floors is, or maybe elevators only go down, not up, or some alien intelligence stole 17 floors of the building and altered his memory).

It's very difficult to get TV shows right. I understand that, and i agree that i would rather watch good episodes that contradict earlier episodes than boring episodes that are self-consistent. On the other hand, i didn't force them to write a prequel series--i don't have much sympathy for how hard their job is. They either knew when they started how hard it would be and failed to achieve it, or they figured that their fan base wouldn't care how poor of a job they did.

Moose
2003-May-12, 04:43 PM
The producers had said (in an interview pre-pilot) that it would be very nearly impossible to do a prequel while respecting TOS continuity in all ways.

I agree with that stance. TOS operated on a continuity-by-conveniance basis, and frequently threw any sort of plausibility out the window.

This last episode, IMO, was exciting, and worked through most of the continuity issues, although I feel the enterprise crew learned far too much about the borg, far too quickly and easily, even if we accept that lower technology tends to trump the usual borg adaptive mods.

To my knowledge, the Borg were never actually identified by "name", even by Cochrane.

As far as Picard's "reversal" operation, keep in mind he was a lot further along the assimilation process than Phlox was, Phlox's immune system was apparently somewhat resistant to the nanomachines, and Picard was actually allowed to retain a small degree of independance so as to act as a liason between the borg and the population of Earth.

However: Phlox's experience was/is journal material, and Archer's log would have definitely been accessible to starfleet. Either definitely contradicts the whole first contact premise of that Q episode... Unless we accept the possibility that nobody thought to StarFloogle[tm] 200+ year old records on "assimilating cyborgs", at least not using the right keywords.

Besides, even getting the right keywords, they would have gotten about 5,000,000+ hits for the various cyborg-hoax believing cranks, assorted appendage-lengthing spams on USSNET and the various starship message boards, and the various Make Drones Fast chain letters. (Start by assimilating five humanoids. Each of them assimilates another five, soon, you have enough drones to choke a Crystalline Entity.)

Waarthog
2003-May-12, 09:05 PM
A glaring Bit of BA in this one was in the Time Speed distance setup at one point. Yes, I know that ST has always had a problem with this one but this time I nearly gagged. :o At one point, the Enterprise is 2 light years behind the borgbots who are traveling at warp 4.8. Archer orders an increase in speed to 4.9 to catch them.
Ok, I am going to dive into the depths of the sea of Geek :oops: here that using the TOS Model of WF (ie v=WF^3 x c) (The logarithmic system wasn't in place yet) its going to take a while to catch them.
WF 4.8 ~ 111c WF 4.9 ~118c. So we have a closing speed of ~7c. 2ly @ 7c closure rate .29 Years or about 4 months. This is of course assuming that the borgbots dont improve their engines any more and neither ship suffers an engineering casualty.

captain swoop
2003-May-13, 08:00 AM
It's very difficult to get TV shows right. I understand that, and i agree that i would rather watch good episodes that contradict earlier episodes than boring episodes that are self-consistent. On the other hand, i didn't force them to write a prequel series--i don't have much sympathy for how hard their job is. They either knew when they started how hard it would be and failed to achieve it, or they figured that their fan base wouldn't care how poor of a job they did.

Come to think of it SG-SG1 does a good job of looking after it's continuity

Pinemarten
2003-May-13, 11:07 AM
I just had a strange thought.
Suppose Dr. Who were to land in a Trek episode; and they had to ask for the help of Q to prevent him from.........?

captain swoop
2003-May-13, 11:58 AM
I just had a strange thought.
Suppose Dr. Who were to land in a Trek episode; and they had to ask for the help of Q to prevent him from.........?

Prevent Dr Who from what?

He would only land where he was needed, that's how it works, he is steered through space and time by various forces to help out where needed.

Either that or his adventures over the last 30 years have been one HELL of a coicidence! :-)

daver
2003-May-13, 06:47 PM
Come to think of it SG-SG1 does a good job of looking after it's continuity

Yeah. It has an advantage, though--the Earth forces are essentially modern, so they have less to keep track of.

There hasn't been much tv sf i've enjoyed over the last few years (but i haven't watched too much recently--i might have missed some good ones). I've liked B5, SG, and Earth 2. Most of these were relatively low tech.

g99
2003-May-13, 07:13 PM
I liked Earth 2 at the begining. But later on in its first season it just started to loose me. I can't place my finger on why, but it just did.

Colt
2003-May-13, 07:36 PM
Yeah, I liked Earth2 also. I think what killed the series for me were the underground alien/molepeople. I never could figure out why exactly they were trying to get to their destination. With the supply ship lost they would have been able to just wait and say "Sorry, we lost the ship." -Colt

tracer
2003-May-14, 12:57 AM
Earth 2 (not to be confused with the made-for-TV movie Earth II from the 1970s) bugged me in one very important way:

Here they are, crash-landed on a totally alien planet with its own independently-evolved biosphere, and there are pine trees growing on the hills! Pine trees are a terrestrial species. For over 9/10 of the Earth's history, pine trees didn't even exist! And I swear I remember seeing grass on the ground in Earth 2 as well. The odds against pine trees and grass independendly evolving on another planet are, if you'll pardon the expression, astronomical.

Star Trek had this problem too, particularly during the Next Generation era. But I'd already resigned myself to the impossibilities of Star Trek by the time Earth 2 first premiered. If a new TV SF series was going to capture my attention, it would have to avoid Trek's mistakes, and Earth 2 failed in that.

daver
2003-May-14, 01:49 AM
There were definite problems with Earth 2. The terrestrial life forms (including that hawk you always heard whenever they showed a mountain forest), the stupid solar panels on the vehicles, the anti-technology feel of the show. At the time the competition was some trek or another and the Roy Scheider submarine show, so perhaps it just looked good by comparison.

Regardless, i went out of my way to watch the show. It had a much different feel to it than other science fiction shows i've seen; i was disappointed when it was cancelled and the stupid sinking boat show was renewed.

g99
2003-May-14, 03:55 AM
Speaking of SeaQuest DSV: I liked the show alot untill they changed the cast and name. One they changed the cast and name it went down the toilet very, very fast.

The show did have promist at first.

Pinemarten
2003-May-14, 07:00 AM
I just had a strange thought.
Suppose Dr. Who were to land in a Trek episode; and they had to ask for the help of Q to prevent him from.........?

Prevent Dr Who from what?

He would only land where he was needed, that's how it works, he is steered through space and time by various forces to help out where needed.

Either that or his adventures over the last 30 years have been one HELL of a coicidence! :-)

Prevent him from helping.
Do you remember the TNG episode where Scotty was found trapped in the transport buffer of a ship outside a Dyson Sphere; and wanted to help Jordie?

Val Trottan
2003-May-14, 04:24 PM
There has been yammer about this Borg episode since last Thursday, especially on another tv and movie themed website, which I won't mention.

However, there may be a logical way to answer why the NG Star Trek Earthers and Starfleet knew nothing about the Borg having been on Earth according to one of the posters on that site and I'll pass it along here to see if it makes sense.
Temporal physics isn't my schitck.

Bear with me ...

1. NX-01 does not appear on the wall of Enterprises in ST:TMP. It isn't one of the gold(-plated) models in TNG. According to that, the whole premise behind Enterprise is false. It would have to be resolved (if B&B are interested in the fans at all) by using the Temporal Cold War sub-plot.
The last episode will have Bobby in the shower.

2. The Borg in ST:FC travel back in time to assimilate humanity before they advance into space before First Contact with the Vulcans.
I think the timing is insignifigant. It could have been years after First Contact, and the result to the Borg would have been the same. The Vulcans, at that time, would have known nothing about them either and any in orbit or in contact with Earth at the time of invasion, would have simply fallen with the rest of them.
However, before the events of First Contact nothing could have been known to Starfleet about the Borg's attempts, because techinically, they wouldn't have happened yet.
It wouldn't be in Starfleet's databases until after the return of the Enterprise in FC to their present. Upon their return, their dealings in the past would have been included, as well as any subsequent dealings witht he Borg, such as those in the last episode of Enterprise.
That's why it isn't mentioned at all ever. They couldn't have known.

This is the "green light" that B&B (Brennan and Braga, for those out of the loop) jumped on. They can do whatever they like, bring any character in, much like Deep Space Nine did when they entered into the temporal arena by adding DSN personnel inside the base during the Trouble with Tribbles of the original series.
No one seemed to balk at that from what I could see.

I do agree that it would be a fatal flaw to bring in Q, but more from a creative standpoint than accuracy's sake. It was evident in Q's display of perceived forms in the second Q episode (I forget the name) the one where he morphs into the various incarnations of previous "deities" he has manifested himself as that he was on Earth at some time beforehand. A couple of the forms he takes are representations of Earth deities.
He also infers that the Q had been studying humanity for some time and that they had come to a decision.
It implies previous contact.

What do you guys think?

snowcelt
2003-May-14, 06:14 PM
What does ST:TMP mean?
thus the rest of one means nothing to me (who the heck is Bobby).
Number two has a temporal resonance that I can somewhat grasp.

Glom
2003-May-14, 06:21 PM
ST:TMP = Star Trek: The Motion Picture

tracer
2003-May-14, 06:24 PM
thus the rest of one means nothing to me (who the heck is Bobby).
Bobby Ewing. From Dallas.

The 3rd season of Dallas ended with Bobby in the shower, who revealed that everything that had happened throughout the entire season was "just a dream."

The point Val Trottan was making was that this would have to be how Enterprise ends, if the show is to have any hope of saving Star Trek continuity.

Val Trottan
2003-May-14, 07:26 PM
Time travel plots can be rather sticky.
It seems as if they are trying to get it together though, as the season finale having Archer showing up in ruins of a former yet altered Earth was done up keeping in mind temporal "laws."
It would easily be compared to the Butterfly wings analogy, whereas a butterfly beating its wings in China causes a hurricane on the other side of the globe. Perhaps a gross exhaggeration of the truth, but good to illustrate the ultimate series of changes which could occur with every action and reaction which takes place at all points of space.

I was rather perplexed with the introduction of the Borg (somehow I must have missed the teaser two weeks ago showing the episode was coming up) but I rationalized it afterwards thinking that anything which goes against the Continuity of the Trek Universe would simply flow down the drain when Bobby takes his shower.

I do have to admit that they may not "fix" it at all. But that won't make me stop watching just yet.

I'll stop watching if a young Spock comes on board via the transporter during an ion storm, gets changed into an adult during a transporter malfunction while the Enterprise is being boarded by Ferengi, then uses Matrix-style Judo to clear the decks of the Ferengi, while Archer, Trip and T'Pol are "decontaminating" in sick bay nearly naked with goo all over them, with Merriwhether abstaining from all action and human contact because he is sad about being single while Hoshi is on leave having more sex with strange aliens on Riza.

Glom
2003-May-14, 07:30 PM
I think that's already happened.

Jim
2003-May-14, 09:22 PM
The last episode will have Bobby in the shower.

Why not Bob (Scott Bakula) in bed with Emily (Jolene Blalock)? He could suggest she try wearing form fitting leotards.

BTW, here's an interesting take on the series. Check out the list of episodes.
http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/index.php3

Colt
2003-May-15, 04:41 AM
Bear with me ...

1. NX-01 does not appear on the wall of Enterprises in ST:TMP. It isn't one of the gold(-plated) models in TNG. According to that, the whole premise behind Enterprise is false. It would have to be resolved (if B&B are interested in the fans at all) by using the Temporal Cold War sub-plot.
The last episode will have Bobby in the shower.

Actually, it has been surmised that the Nx-01 is not on there because it is pre-federation, but some of the others are as well. -Colt

Colt
2003-May-15, 04:45 AM
I just remembered that Enterprise is on.. This episode looks pretty good. The ship also does look like a protoype. More tomorrow after it is over. -Colt

g99
2003-May-15, 06:31 AM
I don't get to see the current episode till tomorrow. Was it good? I don't care if you give spoilers. :-)

RachelW
2003-May-15, 06:36 AM
while Archer, Trip and T'Pol are "decontaminating" in sick bay nearly naked with goo all over them,

That decontamination chaimber is certainly an interresting addition to the series. Somehow T'Pal seems to end up in there whenever it's in use.....good way to raise the ratings! :wink:

I also wondered about something earlier in the new series, when some of the crew were trapped near a Vulcan monistary....it was mentioned that Vulcans have a very strong sense of smell, and that T'Pal had to take a regular medication to keep from being overwhelmed by the stench of humans. Ok, nowhere have I ever heard this before in the entire star trek world(maybe I missed something, I haven't seen everything after all).

captain swoop
2003-May-15, 08:12 AM
I also wondered about something earlier in the new series, when some of the crew were trapped near a Vulcan monistary....it was mentioned that Vulcans have a very strong sense of smell, and that T'Pal had to take a regular medication to keep from being overwhelmed by the stench of humans. Ok, nowhere have I ever heard this before in the entire star trek world(maybe I missed something, I haven't seen everything after all).

Interesting. In a TNG novel Enterprise comes up against a race of aliens that make people physicaly sick just to look at them or hear their voices.

Val Trottan
2003-May-15, 06:25 PM
It's things like the smell thing with Vulcans and the touching for Denobulans which makes this series better, I think.

I thought that was a great addition to that particular episode. Although I'm sure that this wasn't in the minds of the directors while the OS or TNG was being produced (or the others for that matter), but since almost every Vulcan has had a sour expression, (simply because the actors chose to portray "emotionless" as "uptight"), it sort of makes the possibility that there is a back story more alive.

I also liked that Phlox and T'Pol both think that humans are emotionally misguided to keep lesser beings as pets.

daver
2003-May-15, 06:34 PM
It's things like the smell thing with Vulcans and the touching for Denobulans which makes this series better, I think.

I thought that was a great addition to that particular episode. Although I'm sure that this wasn't in the minds of the directors while the OS or TNG was being produced (or the others for that matter), but since almost every Vulcan has had a sour expression, (simply because the actors chose to portray "emotionless" as "uptight"), it sort of makes the possibility that there is a back story more alive.

I also liked that Phlox and T'Pol both think that humans are emotionally misguided to keep lesser beings as pets.

Another continuity violation. Spock had a pet teddy bear (but on Vulcan the teddy bears are 6' tall and have fangs). Maybe they don't consider them lesser beings. Maybe they don't consider them pets.

Val Trottan
2003-May-15, 06:41 PM
Yes ... but remember, Spock is half-human and it is his mother who mentioned the "pet" first, with Spock correcting the perception of the "pet" to be rather vicious and therefore not necessarily "loveable."
Certainly it would not compare to Archer's plump buddy.

The references to Archer's Dog is in two separate episodes. One I remember better than the next the one where Porthos is infected by something and the doctor is less than understanding of Archer's attachment and tells him so, and I think the other was about the ship's limited resources and T'Pol's thought's about the dog being on board.

daver
2003-May-15, 08:13 PM
Yes ... but remember, Spock is half-human and it is his mother who mentioned the "pet" first, with Spock correcting the perception of the "pet" to be rather vicious and therefore not necessarily "loveable."


Odds are that on Vulcan the teddy bears are protectors--Vulcan rugrats are allowed to wander through the Vulcan wilderness, the teddies are there to keep them from being eaten by the flora or fauna. A guard dog, not a lap dog, and a working animal--something that has a better justification tor existance than being an ambulatory mop.

g99
2003-May-15, 09:11 PM
Just saw the latest episoded: "First Flight".

I actually liked this one. Its obvious it was copying off the sound barrier program, too obvious. :-)

The only problem i had was that they stole the ship way to easily. I mean not one guard tried to stop them? give me a break.

pmcolt
2003-May-15, 09:28 PM
The only problem i had was that they stole the ship way to easily. I mean not one guard tried to stop them? give me a break.

Remember, we're talking about Starfleet security here. Ships can be stolen by hippies, Vulcan first officers kidnapping crippled Starfleet captains, teens running away from home, and renegade Starfleet commanders trying to change the past.

I like that they're trying to give us some background on the NX program, but the history still seems a little muddled in my mind. Anyone remember the timeline that Archer laid out? When did those events happen, and when did they switch to the current Enterprise saucer design?

g99
2003-May-15, 09:42 PM
Archer said that 5 years after the breaking of the warp 3 barrier they "laid the keel" of the Enterprise.

Krel
2003-May-16, 12:34 AM
Something I've always wondered about, isn't Vulcan suppose to have a thinner atmospher than Earth? So wouldn't their hearing and sense of smell be dampened by the thicker atmosphere?

David.

Colt
2003-May-16, 01:43 AM
I would actually think it would be improved.. Sound travels better through water afterall and it is denser.

I actually liked both episodes. First Flight (what little I saw of it :( ) and Bounty. Not sure why about Bounty.. It just seemed like a good episode (regardless of the running around with goo). In real life though.. You know that any guy would be happy to oblige T'Pol. :wink: Of course they couldn't do that on TV and this is Star Trek after all. -Colt

nebularain
2003-May-16, 01:41 PM
Well, I know all the guys on the Board are going to jump on me for this, but I actually found it annoying that they would turn a Vulcan into a sensual object! :x

For goodness sake, that is so un-Vulcan!

Glom
2003-May-16, 02:06 PM
Their obsession with catsuits is getting annoying now.

g99
2003-May-16, 05:53 PM
catsuits?

I only saw about half of the Vulcan orgy episode. I just got bored and went back to playing my computer games. I think they ran out of episode ideas and decided to up the "teenage boy under the sheets" factor.

Glom
2003-May-16, 06:30 PM
There reasoning is interesting.

HORNY TEENAGER: "Where can I get a glimpse of a few rounded curves or better? Baywatch? Nah. Buffy? Nah. Programs on the channels we don't mention? Nah. I know. I'll watch Enterprise!"

Alan
2003-May-16, 07:08 PM
Archer said that 5 years after the breaking of the warp 3 barrier they "laid the keel" of the Enterprise.

How long did it take to build Enterprise? Mayweather grew up on a cargo ship that plodded along at around Warp 2 and here they are getting excited about going Warp 2.1 and above.

My impression from Enterprise is that Earth is the retarded race that all the other aliens left alone as they built up their interstellar civilizations. This is a major difference than how humankind is portrayed as in TOS. Everyone else's ships are faster, better armed, everyone knows more about "the universe" than the pitiful humans - except for Tripp who can fix *any* alien device upon seeing it for the first time but cannot make his own warp engines as good as all of those he repairs. He's kinda like the professor on Gilligan's Island who can build anything from coconuts except a boat.

Why doesn't the Starfleet just BUY a Warp 5 or faster engine from any one of the numerous alien races that are just days away from Earth and a piddling Warp 4. Maybe they are saving their money so they can have a second doctor on board their ships like TOS Enterprise had but none of the earlier or later Starships/spacestations seem to have.


As a sci-fi series, Enterprise is passable but as a prequel to TOS, the writers need to at least watch the old series and stop recycling plots. How many times do they have to have a adversarial pair trapped on a planet who have to learn to work together and fix the shuttle/lifepod/etc if they both are to survive?

Val Trottan
2003-May-16, 08:23 PM
Right on. This is my only serious complaint about Enterprise.
The trial episode sending Archer to Ruapente (or however that is supposed to be spelled) reaked of Kirk's trial. I was near expecting Iman to come out of the shadows somewhere.

I think they should concentrate more on the back stories of things mentioned in TOS. They need to sneak in a few modified Klingons, first.)

Other than that, there wasn't much in TOS to get to. This series is set after the never-mentioned Eugenics War. Maybe they should get a mission to intercept rogue ships carrying the war criminals away from Earth, (of course missing Khan's ship altogether).

But ... on the bright side, perhaps they will deal mainly with the formation of the Federation soon.

On the other note, about how humanity is being shown in this one ... I guess the 60s were more positive and humanity had more promise than people today think. I've noticed for some time that mankind seems to be the brunt of jokes more than ever. Less superior, less capable, less controllable.
It wasn't like that in TOS at all.
We were flawed, but even the movies made it seem as if we got over our differences quickly.

I guess not.

ToSeek
2003-May-16, 09:16 PM
My impression from Enterprise is that Earth is the retarded race that all the other aliens left alone as they built up their interstellar civilizations. This is a major difference than how humankind is portrayed as in TOS. Everyone else's ships are faster, better armed, everyone knows more about "the universe" than the pitiful humans.


Well, that's more or less to be expected. If you've just barely achieved interstellar travel, everyone you've run into is going to be ahead of you since you're not going to run into anyone who's behind you.

Alan
2003-May-17, 12:01 AM
My impression from Enterprise is that Earth is the retarded race that all the other aliens left alone as they built up their interstellar civilizations. This is a major difference than how humankind is portrayed as in TOS. Everyone else's ships are faster, better armed, everyone knows more about "the universe" than the pitiful humans.


Well, that's more or less to be expected. If you've just barely achieved interstellar travel, everyone you've run into is going to be ahead of you since you're not going to run into anyone who's behind you.

In TOS they ran into a lot of primitive aliens, even though about half of them were some sort of Earth in the 1960's clones. In Enterprise, bustling alien civilizations seem to be just beyond Pluto, Chronos is just a few days away at Warp 5, yet the Klingons and the rest - even the nearby body snatchers in the freighter and the mysterious space station - have ignored Earth, avoided it. The Vulcans have had agents watching Earth for hundreds of years, but only showed themselves when humans made their first warp flight, and are portrayed as doing their darndest to keep humans out of space, away from the rest of the universe, why? Why didn't the Klingons, Andorians, Romulans, the Body Snatchers, Suluban, or any one of the numerous warlike, conquering races within spitting distance of Earth ever bother to stop by and invade? Why didn't the Ferengi bother to sell a Warp Drive shuttle pod like the bounty hunter had in last weeks show to Earth. 9000 whatchamacallits didn't seem to be an outlandish price for a freighter - and a fast one at that - a broken down Warp 3 garbage skow picked up for scrap should be easy for the average Ferengi to get ahold of and sneak to Earth. Why can't Earth pony up and buy one and reverse engineer it?

Does every other race have a non-interference Prime Directive that they have not bothered to inform Earth about?

tracer
2003-May-17, 12:19 AM
I would actually think [the Vulcan sense of hearing] would be improved [in the thicker atmosphere of Earth] .. Sound travels better through water afterall and it is denser.
Maybe Vulcan's thin air is why the species has such big ears. ;)

Waarthog
2003-May-17, 01:12 AM
According to the Star Fleet Medical Reference Manual, that is exactly why.

I too have trouble with us being the backward child. TOS hinted that when Z. Cohcrane invented warp travel, no one else had it either. If this isn't the case (as it now seems to be in the Enterprise continuity), he would not be so widely revered on Earth. Especially if on the first day it was used, we meet someone who has better tech. At previous points in this thread it was mentioned we would not just be bumbling around space. I firmly agree. Like the current space program there would be clearly spelled out misson objectives to accomplish in sequence each building on the one before.
Also, Starfleet, (such as it is) would be a much more militarily oriented program, given the more or less unknown nature of the threats (or lack therof). I applaud extending the hand of peace, but I want a gun in my holster.

BTW did anyone else notice in the second half of the very first episode, Enterprise firing with guns she doesn't have yet?

tracer
2003-May-17, 02:06 AM
The Star Fleet Medical Refernce Manual ?!

I'll bet it looks something like this: Bajorans: Physiologically identical to humans, except they have scorpions on their noses.
Cardassians: Physiologically identical to humans, except they have miniature souvenir spoons on their foreheads.
Ferengi: Physiologically identical to humans, particularly Ross Perot.
Trill: Physiologically identical to humans, except they have spots on their temples. And they mix well with long-lived memory slugs.
Klingons: Physiologically identical to humans, except they have bumps on their foreheads. Sometimes. And their blood is pink. Sometimes.
Vulcans: Physiologically identical to humans, except for the ears, the eyebrows, the copper-based blood, and the differing arrangement of internal organs (which still hasn't been confirmed).
Repeat for all other alien species of the week.

Colt
2003-May-17, 03:10 AM
Well, I know all the guys on the Board are going to jump on me for this, but I actually found it annoying that they would turn a Vulcan into a sensual object! :x

For goodness sake, that is so un-Vulcan!

You do realize that Vulcans undergo something called "Pon Far"? :roll: This is natural for Vulcans. :P T'Pols was just set off by a microbe. I doubt that the women had a problem with Spock suffering from it. :wink:


I think they ran out of episode ideas and decided to up the "teenage boy under the sheets" factor.

Are you referring to something here? :-? This is a family board you know. :D


HORNY TEENAGER: "Where can I get a glimpse of a few rounded curves or better? Baywatch? Nah. Buffy? Nah. Programs on the channels we don't mention? Nah. I know. I'll watch Enterprise!"

Typifying things, aren't we? :P -Colt

nebularain
2003-May-17, 05:03 PM
[sarcasm]


Well, I know all the guys on the Board are going to jump on me for this, but I actually found it annoying that they would turn a Vulcan into a sensual object! :x

For goodness sake, that is so un-Vulcan!

You do realize that Vulcans undergo something called "Pon Far"? :roll: This is natural for Vulcans. :P T'Pols was just set off by a microbe. I doubt that the women had a problem with Spock suffering from it. :wink:

I wasn't referring to Pon Far; I was referring to her skin-tight oufit designed to , shall we say, accentuate.

Waarthog
2003-May-17, 07:00 PM
The Star Fleet Medical Refernce Manual ?!

I'll bet it looks something like this:

Actually no. It was published in the early 80's not too long after the Star Trek the Motionless Picture. It dealt with the major races of TOS including physiology and psychology. The Klingons didn't look like unwashed heavy metal stars either. It also went into diseases and pharmacology as well as some alien life forms such as the aforementioned blood worms (they say they are nasty) and the horta.
For what apparently was a knockoff (although sanctioned by Paramount) it was surprisingly good and not cheesy.

Colt
2003-May-17, 11:24 PM
[sarcasm]


Well, I know all the guys on the Board are going to jump on me for this, but I actually found it annoying that they would turn a Vulcan into a sensual object! :x

For goodness sake, that is so un-Vulcan!

You do realize that Vulcans undergo something called "Pon Far"? :roll: This is natural for Vulcans. :P T'Pols was just set off by a microbe. I doubt that the women had a problem with Spock suffering from it. :wink:

I wasn't referring to Pon Far; I was referring to her skin-tight oufit designed to , shall we say, accentuate.

It actually makes sense to wear fairly tight clothing onboard a starship.. If you lose gravity it could be hazardous to your health. Look at the jumpsuits that the crew wear, they have no extra material hanging around. I like them more than the ones in all of the other ST series. They are actually feasible as something that a starship crew would wear and they have pockets. T'Pol wears tight clothing because she is a Vulcan, the male Vulcans seem to wear stuff that is pretty similar too. -Colt

nebularain
2003-May-20, 07:13 PM
It actually makes sense to wear fairly tight clothing onboard a starship.. If you lose gravity it could be hazardous to your health. Look at the jumpsuits that the crew wear, they have no extra material hanging around. I like them more than the ones in all of the other ST series. They are actually feasible as something that a starship crew would wear and they have pockets. T'Pol wears tight clothing because she is a Vulcan, the male Vulcans seem to wear stuff that is pretty similar too. -Colt

1) In TOS, the Vulcans are all wearing robes of some sort.

2) The male vulcans are wearing tight clothes? I don't see anything "revealing" in what they wear.

3) "No extra material" on the jumpsuits is not the same thing as skin-tight.

4) Practical? Do you have any idea how impractical a tight body suit like that can be? (Like the hassle you have to deal with in going to the bathroom....)

pmcolt
2003-May-20, 08:24 PM
4) Practical? Do you have any idea how impractical a tight body suit like that can be? (Like the hassle you have to deal with in going to the bathroom....)

The logical answer is that Vulcans don't go to the bathroom. They don't even have bathrooms on their starships. That tradition carried on in later Federation starship designs. Human crewmembers are advised to hold it until the next away mission.

The Vulcans we see in TOS tend to be higher officials or religious leaders of some sort. The ones we see in Ent seem to be mostly diplomats and military officers. Maybe the tight clothes are reserved for low-level dignitaries and the robes for officials in positions of power? Then again, maybe the styles just changed over the course of a hundred years.

I'm actually fond of the Starfleet uniforms on Enterprise. Jumpsuits with pockets, zippers, and mission patches. Seems more like something we'd travel around in than the miniskirts and velour uniforms from TOS, or the pajamas from TNG. It must've driven the engineers in the later generations crazy, not having any pockets to carry tools...

Val Trottan
2003-May-22, 04:29 PM
So ...

End of season 2 and the changes are here. They are slipping into Voyager-Event Horizon-Crusade mode by venturing into the Delphic Expanse: A mysterious part of the Galaxy (ala Voyager) where horrors happen to unsuspoecting crews (ala Event Horizon) to save Earth from destruction (ala Crusade).
I don't have a problem with this ...

How about comments?

ToSeek
2003-May-22, 04:55 PM
So ...

End of season 2 and the changes are here. They are slipping into Voyager-Event Horizon-Crusade mode by venturing into the Delphic Expanse: A mysterious part of the Galaxy (ala Voyager) where horrors happen to unsuspoecting crews (ala Event Horizon) to save Earth from destruction (ala Crusade).
I don't have a problem with this ...

How about comments?

That was an extraordinary tedious episode. I remember chuckling over some silly science as well, though I've blotted most of it out except for being able to quantum date something 400 years in the future. Isn't doubletalk science wonderful?

Stuart
2003-May-22, 05:19 PM
How about comments?
Apparently the E has taken a SEAL team on board; that'll be fun to watch. It stated quite specifically that military organziations were outside Starfleet which gives us an insight into why later Starfleets are so haplessly incompetent. In addition to overthrowing the civilian government of the Federation, they eliminated the military - probably because they represented a rival power center. Trading off military capability for political reliability is typical of totalitarian regimes.

By the way, did anybody notice that the graphic of the earth with the trench cut in it towards the end had the line cut by the beam extending through the water of the GoM? Wouldn't it sort of have flowed back?

For the first time (I think) we had real three-dimensional manoeuvering and combat tactics with spaceships. An immelman would have been better that a simple loop though. And nobody under fire replies with their weapons set to minimum yield. THUMP IT don't tap it.

Does the "Delphic Expanse" in the sense of an area surrounded by a nebula have any theoretical plausibility?

I like that idea of an "inverting" weapon - we ought to get DARPA to work on it.

Moose
2003-May-22, 05:38 PM
FX porn, mainly. I thought the pacing of the episode was _waaaaay_ too rushed. The answers and "solutions" were coming way too easily and quickly. Again, the klingon thing was very rushed and campy.

Lots of potential for coolness, but it should have probably been a two-hour ep, to give adequate time for tension-building, solution searching, and character development.

Stuart
2003-May-22, 05:50 PM
FX porn, mainly. I thought the pacing of the episode was _waaaaay_ too rushed. The answers and "solutions" were coming way too easily and quickly. Again, the klingon thing was very rushed and campy.

Lots of potential for coolness, but it should have probably been a two-hour ep, to give adequate time for tension-building, solution searching, and character development.

Did you get the impression that it was two episodes mashed into one? Or, perhaps more likely, the producers got an instruction from the front office to liven the series up or it would be axed so a half-completed episode was radically changed in mid-production.

I have a gut feel that Enterprise isn't going to make it through its third season.

Val Trottan
2003-May-22, 06:22 PM
On the issue of Enterprise's longevity ... I envoke: Voyager.
If you listened to all the whiney people on the BBs discussing that piece of ... er ... television history ... the Apocalypse was nigh if it made it past its third season.

I take like this: As long as it isn't terrible (and Enterprise hasn't been that yet), I'll watch it. It's sci-fi and that's what I love.
I want to see ships zipping through space at impossible speeds and shooting up bad guys. I pay attention enough to get what they are trying to sell, but I won't sell the farm if they get a tad cheesy. I mean c'mon, the same people who are complaining about how Enterprise is cheesy are the same people who think TOS was inspired directly by god and is infallable where in reality it was an EdWoodian tale manned by people in cheesy outfits and near-cardboard sets.
I ... mean to say ... that ... they ... need to ... get ... a grip.

If Enterprise were not on we'd have to settle with whatever babble the SciFi Channel wants to toss at us. That includes Stargate SG-1. (I secretly plan its tv demise every month. Mmmuhhhahahahha!)

But seriously.

heh

Glom
2003-May-22, 06:55 PM
Unfortunately for you Van Trotten, Enterprise will crash, burn and be condemned to the VIP suite in Natu Stargate SG-1 even begins to flinch. :D

g99
2003-May-22, 07:00 PM
I havn't seen the season finaly yet. It comes on here thursdays at 4:00 p.m. since it shares its programming with CBS (we have no UPN here). But the previous episode (First Flight) does show that the show has some promise if they have the right writers and ideas. Maybe they will get more of those "history of Starfleet" episodes and less "Alien of the week episodes" that Voyager and DS9 resorted to (among other things).


But i did like some of voyager (the borg episodes were cool) and i loved the final episode.

Val Trottan
2003-May-22, 07:26 PM
Hmmm.

Well, I guess if that happens Glom, I'll have to rethink my stance on the non-existence of Satan since the creators of that piece of *fluff* had to have sold their souls to him to keep it alive this long.

I'm waiting for the Sumerian deity Enki to show up with a V-style double voice and the like since they have raped almost every mythological god so far.

Glom
2003-May-22, 07:43 PM
There is a Satan. He's in my class at school. You gotta problem with incorporating ancients gods into the storyline?

Val Trottan
2003-May-22, 08:08 PM
This will sound rather geeky, but the gods they have been using already have rather elaborate stories about them. They didn't need improving.
Just reminds me too much of Sitchin, I guess.

I loved the movie Stargate ... despite I had the same distaste for the Sitchinesque plot even then ... but now ... Odin, Asgardians, The Yellow Emperor?
Sheesh.

And that big guy Jafar (whatever) is just annoying with all that mascara.

I'm sorry Glom, I can tell you like this series and I'm just downing it like a madman. I'll stop now.

tracer
2003-May-22, 08:23 PM
I remember chuckling over some silly science as well, though I've blotted most of it out except for being able to quantum date something 400 years in the future.
You know what? There might be a way that something like that could actually work.

Suppose there was one super-colossal event at a known time in the distant past -- a whole galaxy going supernova all at once, the galactic-center black hole turning into a gamma ray burster, the Big Bang, etc. -- that left its mark on everything in the galaxy. Furthermore, suppose the mark left by this traumatic event changed with time at a known rate. Then, everything in the galaxy would have the same changes in this mark, unless it had travelled through time. (The mark on an object that underwent relativistic time dilation would seem to be "in the past", while the mark on an object that travelled backward through time would seem to be "in the future.")

Of course, this doesn't explain how Archer was able to use this method to determine how long ago various parts of the probe had been constructed. :roll:

g99
2003-May-22, 09:00 PM
O.k. i just watched the episode. Interesting. It is two episodes in one so far. And we definitely have a major nemesis for Archer. There is a 100% chance that the Klingon survived. I have no doubt he got out safely and wil be back.

Nitpick about the beam.


The trench showed from space is much, much wider than the trench showed on the ground. The one on the ground is only two-three miles across. In space it looks to be tens of miles across. Maybe 50 or 60.

Plus if it was Alien controlled why waste the energy on hitting water? Even an alien would of known that Humans do not live in water. Why not just hit cities?

-----------------------------

The "Delphic expanse" does seem to be a takeoff from Voyager. I can easily see that it will take up all of season three. Welcome back to the whole "alien of the week" episodes.



Was it just me or did the Alien who piloted the probe look like that dinosaur like alien that Kurk faught on that planet where he had to make a gunpowder cannon. I think they are called Gorn. Right?

I liked the plot ideas for all of the upgrades the Enterprise got. I am suyrew they will come up with some surprising new technology that they have not mentiohned before. Like shields sometime in the future and also powerful beam weapons.

Somehow they have to get up to the technology of TOS.

And was it just me or are they way to wastefull of Torpedoes? They have a very limited amount and should use them very sparingly. Like in the first few seasons of Voyager before magically they suddenly got a unlimited number of them.

tracer
2003-May-22, 11:03 PM
The trench showed from space is much, much wider than the trench showed on the ground. The one on the ground is only two-three miles across. In space it looks to be tens of miles across. Maybe 50 or 60.
When the Enterprise returned to Earth and Archer & company looked at the destruction from orbit, the trench was much narrower than when they showed the alien probe creating it. It only looked a couple of miles across in that later scene.

Dae
2003-May-23, 03:44 AM
Hi I guess Ill just be adding to a dead thread, but ill have to agree with the continuity bit about enterprise. I watch the show religiously, only cuz im a star trek far who started with TOS. Maybe we should ask a serious question though, do we like Enterprise for what it is or do we just want to like Enterprise. Honestly, I think the latter is a serious issue. As a fan, the announcement of the new series was like a warm feeling inside, but now that the first season is over, (and after delving into the thoughts here) I wonder if it really is as satifying an experience as I want it to be, or am i fooling myself.
The lack of " true to science" really does bug me in ST. While i feel TNG got away with this because the characters were so cool, Enterprise in my mind, needs to grab the attention of the hardcore trekies (trekkers) again. I always wanted to think of ST as an intelligent show, but really the inconcistancies are getting annoying. Time travel stuff really bugs me cuz the only time travel we know about in theories really isnt that exciting.

BTW Nice show on the 15, the Zetas are talking about 2012 now, LOL!

Moose
2003-May-23, 11:52 AM
There is a Satan. He's in my class at school. You gotta problem with incorporating ancients gods into the storyline?

No, no. That's Stan. Stan Johnson. And he's only a year or two older than you. He's not ancient.

honestmonkey
2003-May-23, 03:16 PM
Well, since we're ragging on the show (easy to do), why would the aliens that attacked Earth "test out" their weapon like that? Wouldn't you instead test it out on some other uninhabitted world, then once it worked, go for broke against your real target? Why give a warning like that? Especially against someone you thought was going to destroy you in 400 years?

"Hey, they don't know us from Adam, but they will eventually destroy us, so let's go poke them in the eye." Sounds like a good stratagy to me. :roll:

And where were the military people during all the attacks? Sitting on their bunks? "Jeez, we're under attack. Well, I guess Archer can handle it, I'll just go back to sleep."

And the only reason the Klingons were even in the episode is that otherwise, very little would have actually have happened.

I'm not sure whether this new direction will help or make it even goofier.

Val Trottan
2003-May-23, 03:41 PM
Well ... I'm going to hope for the best.
They can go in many odd directions with this newest dig in plot. They now have a lot of expendable personnel to knock off each week. Wouldn't it be grand if, when we get to see the military personnel, they have red uniforms.
Heh.
There will be a few action episodes with the AoW (alien of the week), with many "we're out here trying to save the Earth all because of a hokey and suspect clue from someone who didn't like us last season" episodes, and perhaps some real freaky things. Why mention the inverted Klingons(?) if they don't have that in store for us.
I have been waiting patiently for one of these series to get braver ... like the original series was.
I may think their sets and costumes were cheesy, but their social commentary was pretty radical for the time it originally ran. They don't need to go all liberal lefty commie now especially since most of America doesn't like that vein anymore (YIPPIE!), but they could get seriously graphic for once.
It's not like it hasn't been seen already somewhere else.

Sheesh.

ToSeek
2003-May-23, 03:43 PM
And where were the military people during all the attacks? Sitting on their bunks? "Jeez, we're under attack. Well, I guess Archer can handle it, I'll just go back to sleep."


And now we have one starship going up against an entire planet (at least) of beings who hate Earthlings. If the show is even remotely realistic, it's going to be, "Hi, we're from Earth" - "Die Earther scum!" - BOOM! - end of series.

g99
2003-May-23, 05:14 PM
did anyone else notice that the Volcans said that in the Delphic expanse the laws of physics are not normal?

waynek
2003-May-23, 05:15 PM
Here's my 2 Euro cents (what else am I going to do with them, they're worth more anyway).

I haven't made it through a Trek series since TNG, but I've started out watching each one. After getting disgusted with Voyager so quickly I really _wanted_ to like Enterprise. At first I did, too, which was great, but now it seems like they're just slipping back into the "same old stuff" that made Voyager and DS9 so bad. This season finale seemed so contrived as a way to boost ratings next season with a "meaner and nastier" show that I'm in serious doubt about even starting on the next season when it starts up.


Why can't they get decent writers who can write original and compelling stories. They have so much to work with in this series?
Why can't Starfeet people ever act like professionals? When that test pilot the other day ignored the abort to "push for warp 2.2", I just about turned it off right then.
Why can't they hire one "Trekkie" to keep up with all of the contintuity problems that are so obvious to most of us?
Why do they think they need to keep dredging up "popular" baddies like the Borg, even when it shoots big holes in continuity?


Okay, I feel better now.

ToSeek
2003-May-23, 09:04 PM
did anyone else notice that the Volcans said that in the Delphic expanse the laws of physics are not normal?

Oh, right, that was one of the lines I blotted out.

pi is exactly 3
2003-May-24, 11:46 PM
Here's a spin off. Enterprise gets sent back in time to like the 70's. then he meets face to face with the guy from quantum leap. They realise they are the same person (actor) and the enterprise blows up in a big temperal paradox, or something. This will solve all your problems of continuosity.

The End

nebularain
2003-May-25, 02:55 AM
:lol:

captain swoop
2003-May-28, 08:27 AM
How come there is only ever one 'super ship' or 'super weaopn' or 'super (add your own here)'

IF you had built the Enterprise and it seemed to be working OK, wouldn't you be building more of them?

it's a recurring thing in every sci-fi or adventure series, there is only ever one of them.

Moose
2003-May-28, 12:27 PM
IF you had built the Enterprise and it seemed to be working OK, wouldn't you be building more of them?


What are you talking about?

There were more than one Constellation, Constitution, Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, and Defiant class ships. Only some of them were actually named Enterprise. Sure, the shows focused on only one ship at a time, but others were invariably portrayed at one point or another.

In the case of NX-01, the NX-02 is in construction, and even had her new captain assigned to her. (See Season 2 Finale, although don't blink. It's not a long scene.) I suspect there may be other shipyards tooling up as well by this point.

Glom
2003-May-28, 12:32 PM
Of course, the exact makeup of the program seems somewhat vague. The program appears to have the objective of building a big warp ship and sending it off on a publicity stunt.

I know we accuse the Space Shuttle of being a tautological program, but at least many useful things are done with it.

ToSeek
2003-May-28, 04:41 PM
IF you had built the Enterprise and it seemed to be working OK, wouldn't you be building more of them?


What are you talking about?

There were more than one Constellation, Constitution, Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, and Defiant class ships. Only some of them were actually named Enterprise. Sure, the shows focused on only one ship at a time, but others were invariably portrayed at one point or another.


As I recall, in TOS there were twelve Constitution-class starships, Enterprise just being one of them. We see or hear about at least four or five others during the course of the series.

David Hall
2003-May-28, 05:49 PM
In the TOS episode where they hook the Enterprise up to a supercomputer and it goes berserk, the computer takes on 4 other constitution class ships at once and disables them all (because they all thought it would be a simulation).

In the Zucchini of Doom episode (Doomsday Machine), half of the show takes place aboard the USS Constellation.

I also sort of remember the episode of TNG where the Enterprise rendevous with it's sister ship, the Yamato, which then explodes for no adequately explored reason (at the time, at least).

These are just a few examples.

Val Trottan
2003-May-28, 05:57 PM
I think the series is coming along nicely.
B&B have already spilled the beans about this series taking place in an alternate timeline which a) makes it easier for them 'cause they don't have to pay attention to the continuity (I'm sure one of their major concerns *cough*SARCASM*cough*) and b) they can just fix it all for the whiney ST geeks (such as myself) in the last few episodes.

Glom
2003-May-28, 07:40 PM
I'm not impressed by that. It smacks of laziness. If they were any good, they'd at least try to keep some continuity.

Val Trottan
2003-May-28, 08:18 PM
I wouldn't look the gift horse int he mouth, Glom. With the state of TV these days (Survivor, Joe Millionaire, Boy meets Boy yep ... you read that right) I'm glad ST has writers at all.

Could you imagine Star Trek as a game show where a human has to survive on an island on an alien world while having to pick a lover out of 20 masked alien lifeforms to compete for 20 million credits?

Glom
2003-May-28, 08:29 PM
Fair point. Of course, from the sounds of it, it seems as though reality TV is much worse in the US than it is in the UK. For the moment, it's been contained to a yearly dose of Big Brother on C4 as well as some celebrity ones, but they're slightly different.

pmcolt
2003-May-28, 09:06 PM
I'll wager 500 quatloos that the human gets his head ripped off while flirting from the alien from the planet Mantis.

But seriously, Enterprise is disappointing, despite my attempts at liking it. The writers promised us something new, different, edgy, original. So far I've seen a politically-correct Captain and his equally politically correct crew boldly going through scenarios that will later be repeated by various bald Starfleet captains. And Janeway. But, since we've thrown continuity out the window, I guess none of that ever happened.

I'd like to see good storytelling. I want to see the characters grow. I'd love to see Earth's first starship boldly going, exploring, stumbling around, meeting new races. I would like to have some sense that for a mission as important as this, the ship isn't just wandering around randomly at the captain's whims, but actually has a mission outlined. For the first warp-5 starship mission, you'd think every astronomer and his uncle would have something they'd like to get a look at...

I don't want to see 42 minutes of various TNG episodes thrown into a blender, with scenes of T'Pol in the decontamination chamber and technobabble deflector realignment thrown in. If that's all the writers are going to do, then just get rid of them and I'll be happy to see which of the bikini-clad, human-looking alien females the Captain and his crew will choose this week on Star Trek Survivor: Captain Joe Millionaire Meets Girl Alien Temptation.

Glom
2003-May-29, 01:20 PM
Okay, let's review.

What did we know about this era prior to Enterprise?

The United Federation of Planets was founded in 2161.
Prior to the Charter, there was a bloody war between the future founders and the Romulans.
The Romulans and the allies never saw each other face to face.
After the war, a Treaty was signed that established the Neutral Zone between the future Federation and the Romulan Star Empire.
The war was fought in tight ships with nuclear weapons.

That's about it. There's not a lot of information on this time and what we have doesn't apply to the year we currently see on Enterprise. In other words, there isn't that much restriction on what they can do with this time, so there is no excuse for B&B to moan about the difficulties of writing a prequel series and maintaining continuity because they essentially have free reign. Yes, we know that Captain Archer and this Enterprise have never been mentioned before, but we can get over that. (If they were really smart, they would have put a reference in Star Trek: Nemesis) All we ask is that they respect what has already been established about the aliens we are encountering.

The thing about Classic was it was kind of camp. I like camp. (The Fesarius, the androids of Mudd, Tribbles) It was also kind of vague as to what exactly the setting was, leaving us to fill in the blanks ourselves with our own imaginations. This served it well. The vagueness fueled the notion being lost somewhere in the great unknown. If you establish everything too well, you can make space seem to small and domesticated. Enterprise is not camp, it wants to be taken far too seriously and thus it fails to deliver.

Another serious problem I have with B&B have never watched Classic. They have never heard of the United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA). If they actually knew what they were writing about, they would use that as the agency instead of Starfleet, which was the agency for the Federation.

captain swoop
2003-May-29, 04:02 PM
I don't want to see 42 minutes of various TNG episodes thrown into a blender, with scenes of T'Pol in the decontamination chamber and technobabble deflector realignment thrown in. If that's all the writers are going to do, then just get rid of them and I'll be happy to see which of the bikini-clad, human-looking alien females the Captain and his crew will choose this week on Star Trek Survivor: Captain Joe Millionaire Meets Girl Alien Temptation.

You will like what the UK sattelite channel 'Sky 1' have been doing then, they have bneen showing all the 'Babe' episodes where female cast members 'get their kit almost off'

captain swoop
2003-May-29, 04:05 PM
Fair point. Of course, from the sounds of it, it seems as though reality TV is much worse in the US than it is in the UK. For the moment, it's been contained to a yearly dose of Big Brother on C4 as well as some celebrity ones, but they're slightly different.

Don't forget Get me out of here, Castaways, The Salon, Popstars, and that thing with has been popstars doing a tour in the USA.

I think there are others but I will have to ask my wife, she watches them all the time.

Glom
2003-May-29, 04:30 PM
You will like what the UK sattelite channel 'Sky 1' have been doing then, they have bneen showing all the 'Babe' episodes where female cast members 'get their kit almost off'

They have a tendancy to advertise episodes based on sex appeal and not on content. But then again, SkyOne has become very red top in recent years.

CJSF
2003-May-29, 05:57 PM
To paraphrase Q:

Must you all be so linear...

Star Trek is FULL of temporal paradoxes (The chicken and the egg, Will! The chicken and the egg!).

However, it has also been clear since the onset of Enterprise that the time line is all screwed up due to this "temporal cold war" thing. I've assumed since the first eps. that this ST time line would not mesh with TOS, TNG, DS9, or (retch) Voyager.

I worry more about plot issues like the season finale this year - so, instead of testing their "destroy Earth" probe somewhere far away and getting the final one finished and destroying Earth with it, these aliens send a test probe to scour out Florida, giving our heroes several months to go find them and stop them from building the final probe. How convenient of those aliens to do that for humanity.

CJSF

Glom
2003-May-29, 06:27 PM
Of course, if they don't make it mesh with the others, we can't really like it as Trek, but we have to like it on its own merits. Anyone found any merits yet?

g99
2003-May-29, 06:32 PM
it seems that we are not alone:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/sandler/images/scipoll.jpg
From: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/

Glom
2003-May-29, 06:52 PM
I find the concept intriguing because it says a lot about the writers. They're saying that exploring space wasn't enough? They haven't been exploring anything. They've been wandering around aimlessly until they find a good photo opportunity. They promised the Enterprise would depict a pioneering mission of exploration. They depicted it badly, the ratings plummetted and now they're changing the point of the series entirely.

In 'Shockwave part I', after the mission was cancelled (they couldn't say aborted?) Travis was talking to Hoshi and saying how everyone on Earth thinks that Enterprise is doing nothing but getting in trouble. He sounds surprised. I don't know why. A lot of us think that Enterprise is doing nothing but getting in trouble.

tracer
2003-May-29, 07:34 PM
In the Zucchini of Doom episode (Doomsday Machine),
I must protest, sir!

That was no zucchini, that was a horn of plenty!

pmcolt
2003-May-30, 07:25 AM
That was no zucchini, that was a horn of plenty!

Plenty of destruction, maybe. Though I thought it was a really stale broken ice cream cone...

Enterprise has nice pretty crew with pretty uniforms and a pretty ship that makes pretty explosions when it's attacked by the latest alien species, but:

It lacks the camp value of TOS, as Glom said.
It lacks any sense of awe or adventure.
It smacks of sameness; not surprising considering how long B&B have been doing this.
The writers seem not to care. Throwing in references to TOS races and events is not continuity, it's throwing a bone to the loyal fans.

ToSeek
2003-May-30, 04:02 PM
In the Zucchini of Doom episode (Doomsday Machine),
I must protest, sir!

That was no zucchini, that was a horn of plenty!

I disagree with both of you, it was a giant galactic Bugle[tm]:

http://www.ims-florida.com/bugles.jpg


I remember my brother and sister and I would aim Bugles at each other while going "dah-dahnt dah-dahnt DAH-DAH dah-dahnt....".

Alan
2003-May-30, 06:18 PM
I worry more about plot issues like the season finale this year - so, instead of testing their "destroy Earth" probe somewhere far away and getting the final one finished and destroying Earth with it, these aliens send a test probe to scour out Florida, giving our heroes several months to go find them and stop them from building the final probe. How convenient of those aliens to do that for humanity.

CJSF

My impression was that if they didn't(hadn't?) sent the probe to draw a line in Florida, then Earth wouldn't have any reason to go find them and attack them.

400 years in the future makes it beyond TNG/DS9/Voyager. My prediction based on how the Federation progresses (in B&B's view) is that the planet is destroyed by a Federation PC envoy delegation who talks them to death in countless, endless meetings about how great it would be if they just forgot about their differences and embraced each others diversity, etc while serving them Earl Grey tea.


B&B have already spilled the beans about this series taking place in an alternate timeline which a) makes it easier for them 'cause they don't have to pay attention to the continuity (I'm sure one of their major concerns *cough*SARCASM*cough*) and b) they can just fix it all for the whiney ST geeks (such as myself) in the last few episodes.

Maybe they will weasel out by claiming this is the alternate universe where Spock has a beard, later used in a DS9 episode after the revolt against the evil empire. Captain Archer goes into the funky nebula, gets the just completed super, planet destroying, death starish weapon built by the aliens, declares himself Emperor of Earth and starts the whole evil empire. The Suluban and shadow man are actually good guys who are trying to oppose the creation of this empire - albeit by using violence, while the dead crewman, whathisname, represent the good-good guys who want to prevent the creation of the evil empire in the "proper" B&B Starfleet way, by talking and working out their feelings so Archer doesn't feel compelled to act in an aggressive manner.

CJSF
2003-May-30, 06:30 PM
My impression was that if they didn't(hadn't?) sent the probe to draw a line in Florida, then Earth wouldn't have any reason to go find them and attack them.


Come again? So the aliens deliberately are instigating Earth to go destroy them so they'll have a reason to build a probe to destroy Earth, so Earth will go destroy them? Hmm... We'll have to watch this human more closely. He shows some potential

;-)

CJSF

Moose
2003-May-30, 06:36 PM
400 years in the future would make it about right for another of Kirk's great returns from the Icy Jaws of Death [tm]! (He got better.)

nebularain
2003-May-30, 06:36 PM
I wonder when Vulcans using mind-melding, the grip on the neck that knocks everyone out (forgot its specific name), and all those other things Spock did, which are in the Enterprise timeline considered illegal by the Vulcans, become the norm for their society. Did anyone else find this a bit odd?

CJSF
2003-May-30, 06:38 PM
I wonder when Vulcans using mind-melding, the grip on the neck that knocks everyone out (forgot its specific name), and all those other things Spock did, which are in the Enterprise timeline considered illegal by the Vulcans, become the norm for their society. Did anyone else find this a bit odd?

Cultures change and evolve. Think of the huge societal shifts in our culture in the past few hundred years.

CJSF

Stuart
2003-May-30, 06:54 PM
Maybe they will weasel out by claiming this is the alternate universe where Spock has a beard, later used in a DS9 episode after the revolt against the evil empire. Captain Archer goes into the funky nebula, gets the just completed super, planet destroying, death starish weapon built by the aliens, declares himself Emperor of Earth and starts the whole evil empire. The Suluban and shadow man are actually good guys who are trying to oppose the creation of this empire - albeit by using violence, while the dead crewman, whathisname, represent the good-good guys who want to prevent the creation of the evil empire in the "proper" B&B Starfleet way, by talking and working out their feelings so Archer doesn't feel compelled to act in an aggressive manner.

Why do I find this strangely convincing? It actually makes a lot of sense and explains a few other things (for example the TOS timeline had Earth avoiding a nuclear war while the STE one has had one. Perhaps thats the dividing point between the two universes. If war breaks out - STE; if it doesn't TOS. Perhaps the guy in the box is Sisko trying to fix up a date with the Kira-analog whip-wielding commandant

Glom
2003-May-31, 11:21 PM
TV Guide (http://www.tvguide.com/features/startrek/submissions.asp) has an interesting article.

Glom
2003-Jun-16, 07:49 PM
'The Expanse' has just aired on SkyOne.

It sounds like the first steps towards continuity on the show. I was thinking as Enterprise pulled out of spacedock that maybe this is the chance for Enterprise to start again and do better this time. I stand by what I said here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=93735#93735) that the fact they are having to change the plot shows how dismally they carried the original plot. However, it does give a bit of hope. We will see.

Continuity problem: they install photon torpedoes, the kind that the weapons officer of the first Warp 5 ship of Earth had never encountered a year and a half prior. So within a year and a half, the torpedoes had been conceived, developed, tested and approved for use.

Repetative false jeopardy: will T'Pol leave the ship?

Archer's ineptitude: during Duras's first attack on Enterprise, he says he has nothing against the ship, just the captain. Kirk, Picard, Janeway would not hesitate to surrender themselves for the sake of the ship, but to Archer, this isn't conceivable.

informant
2003-Jun-16, 08:09 PM
He's more primitive. ;)
And you guys complain so much about continuity...

waynek
2003-Jun-17, 05:10 PM
Repetative false jeopardy: will T'Pol leave the ship?

This bugs me as well. I was really hoping they'd do something new with it, like have her resign her Vulcan commission and accept a field commission or something and get a Starfleet uniform. Oh, wait, that'd hurt their 13 year old male demographic. Nevermind. :roll:

Glom
2004-Mar-07, 06:07 PM
Getting back to the OP, since 'Regeneration' just aired on C4, I've made some observations.

First off, there were some suspenseful things about it, which were hampered by the plot holes. The good things, though, have to be attributed to director David Livingstone. His direction could have made for a masterful thriller if not for the inept writing of Mike Sussman and Phyllis Strong.

Some have attempted to explain away the issue with Starfleet knowing nothing about the Borg in 'QWho' [TNG] despite these events, by pointing out that the Borg conveniently and inexplicably changing the usual line, "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." to "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." and hence thereby not giving away their name, despite the fact that they love to announce themselves. The reasoning given is that without their name, they wouldn't be able to find references to this incident in their databanks. They would have nothing to enter into their search engines.

This is completely non-sensical. While they couldn't enter "Borg" into the search engine, there are a plethora of terms they could enter:
Collective consciousness.
Cybernetic.
Delta Quadrant.
Nanoprobes.
Assimilate.
Chorus voice.
Personal shields.
Zombie like behaviour.
Enhanced strength.
Advanced technology.
Transformation of people into drones.Add to that, they should have pictures of them which should also be of help. We'd like to thing that Starfleet Intelligence are naffing amateurs at this. Given how advanced these aliens appeared to NX-01, making good notes are a must, especially given they're expecting an attack.

A similar travesty happened with the Ferengi in 'Acquisition', where Archer conveniently forgot to ask the name of aliens, even from Jeffrey Combs's character who likely would have told them, given he had no compunction with telling them about the rules of acquisition. They did hijack the ship. The crew did thwart them and place them under arrest. Archer did inform the Vulcan High Command. Presumably they'd want a name. We are either to believe that Archer interrogated them and searched their ship and found out their name, or he's an idiot. If the latter, then terms like 'rules of acquisition', 'huge eyes', 'funny teeth', 'brown skin', 'hairless', 'oddly shaped head' would also have come in useful, plus the recording of them made by T'Pol as she monitored them over the security system. If we are to believe that what she was monitoring was being recorded in a hijack situation, then T'Pol and many, many others are also idiots.

It doesn't bode well when the only excuse is the bridge crew have a combined intellect of a glass of water.

But back to 'Regeneration'. What happened to the days when the Borg were so terrifying because a second after they injected you with nanoprobes, your skin went clammy and spider implants popped out of your cheeks? The fact that Phlox could survive defied all common sense and makes me think that either Sussman and Strong have the combined intellect of a glass of water, or think that we do and hence don't bother to write anything intelligent.

The team Archer sent over to the Borg ship was also suspect. The captain was going to leave the ship in a combat situation. Very poor to start. He takes with him his weapons officer. The two go alone. Even redshirts are preferable to nothing. Just these two officers, who were needed on the bridge, is inexplicable. And they beamed over facing the same way. Good thing there wasn't a drone waiting behind them. Remember on NextGen when a team would beam over all facing outwards of a circle?