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DaveO
2003-May-16, 07:20 AM
Hello friends; this is my first post on this forum. I must say; Bad Astronomy is a superb site; lots of hilarious and shake-your-head reading. :lol:
I do have a question someone more skilled than I in Astronomy (which is just about everyone) may be able to answer:
Is there such a thing/place/body/region - whatever - as Tannhauser Gate?
Ordinarily; I'd assume no; however the name appears in three distinct and unrelated S-F sources; namely 'Blade Runner' (in Roy's famous quote), 'Soldier' with Kurt Russel, and a S-F space simulator called Independance War. With 3 seperate instances; there are two possibilities: 1) either there is such a thing as Tannhauser Gate, or 2) there isn't, and two of the sources are guilty of plagarism.
I've tried doing a search on the net; but all I get are thousands of sites that hold the Blade Runner quote - any actual info is way down the list somewhere.

Anyone know? Thanx. :)

Dave

Reacher
2003-May-16, 12:33 PM
I'm not sure. I have never heard of it, and I have clearly forgotten the quote from Blade Runner.
I have a similar question, however. At first, it has nothing to do with astronomy, but it could.
In a game I play online sometimes, the sword made of a metal stronger than mithril is called an "Adamantite" sword.
In a world mythology book that I own, it says that a charachter of some mythology "forged a net stronger than Adamantiel."
And, in X-Men, Wolverine's armour is made of "Adamantium." which is "virtually indestructable."
Anything to it? Could it be used in aircraft/spacecraft construction?
I take it it doesn't excist, but I wonder.

Sever
2003-May-16, 01:25 PM
In Heavy Gear 2 there is a Tannhauser Gate, it is a jumogate kind of thing.

kilopi
2003-May-16, 02:17 PM
Tannhauser figures in the novels of Heinlein, and there is the Tannhauser opera of Wagner--based upon an old german legend.

kucharek
2003-May-16, 02:28 PM
Uh, I'm German, but except what I learnt from '2001' and 'Apocalypse Now', I don't know anything about Wagner's music. Okay, a little bit more I know: Hitler liked Wagner's music very much (can't blame Richard for that) and Wagner's later family was good friend with Hitler...

When looking at Tannhauser's (Tannhäuser in German) plot, in the first act he is somewhere with Venus, but returns to Earth through the Tannhäuser Gate.

Hey, is this where Clarke got the idea for his stargate from!???

Harald

maryellenandtom
2003-May-16, 04:21 PM
Don't know about Tannhauser (other then Wagner).

But "adamantine" (see http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/A0075900.html) is derived from the Greek for "unconquerable".
"Diamond" is also derived from the same Greek root.

[more than you ever wanted to know]
Diamond, of course, is composed of carbon. The smallest hydrocarbon molecule with a diamond like structure is called adamantane (see http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8048/8048notw4.html).
[/more than you ever wanted to know]

Sci-fi writers find this stuff and run off a cliff with it.

informant
2003-May-16, 06:09 PM
I'm not sure. I have never heard of it, and I have clearly forgotten the quote from Blade Runner.

Allow me…

I have seen things you people wouldn’t believe… Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion… I’ve watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate… All those moments will be lost in time.


Uh, I'm German, but except what I learnt from '2001' and 'Apocalypse Now', I don't know anything about Wagner's music.

The music in ‘Apocalypse Now’ is the ‘Ride of the Valkyries’.
There’s no music by Wagner in ‘2001’. Maybe you’re thinking of Richard Strauss.


Okay, a little bit more I know: Hitler liked Wagner's music very much (can't blame Richard for that) and Wagner's later family was good friend with Hitler...

Wagner may have been anti-Semitic himself – like his ex-friend Nietzsche. But he was also one of the most innovative and intense composers in history.

David Hall
2003-May-16, 06:20 PM
I always got the impression that Tannhauser Gates were something from the depths of SciFi. They are a kind of warp gate. Enter in one place and exit in another. Of course they don't really exist. I don't know who originated the idea, but it's one of those things that everybody uses as kind of a homage.

I believe they were mentioned in the Anime Gunbuster as well.

aporetic_r
2003-May-16, 06:22 PM
Wagner may have been anti-Semitic himself – like his ex-friend Nietzsche. But he was also one of the most innovative and intense composers in history.

Freidrich Nietzsche does not appear to have been actually anti-Semitic. He certain has very nasty things to say about Judaism and Christianity, and slightly less nasty things to say about Buddhism. Perhaps his most biting comments are reserved for the Germans. Hating Judeo-Christian ethics isn't the same as being anti-Semitic. And of course Nietzsche, who argued against the doctrine of the freedom of the will, is not generlaly in the habit of blaming people for things. Also, hatred itself is, according to N, a fiction of the slave morality. But since this isn't even close to the topic of astronomy, I'll leave it there. Please e-mail me if you'd like to discuss this further.

Aporetic_r
www.polisci.wisc.edu/~rdparrish


Edited once to correct the BBCode. Edited again to include these comments on the substance of the edit.

zwi
2003-May-17, 12:42 AM
Sorry I dont know the origin of Tannhauser Gate, but I can help you with Tannhauser Knight

Its the average amount of time I had to study at Medical School :D

Zwi

Avatar28
2003-May-17, 03:18 AM
Adamantine/adamantite/adamantium/etc are fairly popularized in fantasy literature. It's used in D&D as well and aside from Tolkien (and possibly even including tolkien), D&D has been one of if not the biggest influence in many aspects fantasy literature as we know it.

With a bit of searching, I did come up with these if it helps:

http://newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99112.htm



Question: Is adamantium a real metal? If it is real, is it the strongest metal?
brandon s pincus

Answer 1:
ADAMANTINE is a mineral, a form of corundum, Al2O3. Gem varieties of
corundum are rubies and sapphires.
I've never heard of "adamantium." It sounds like one of those make-
believe materials used for armor and weapons in dungeons&dragons-type
games.
jade hawk

Answer 2:
You got it Jade Hawk, although adamantium was also a fictional
metal in Marvel comic books back in the 70s.


Searching for adamantite didn't help much. I mainly just came up with a cubic assload of RPG references. Maybe an indication of how much affect D&D really has had on society, or at least Internet society?

DaveO
2003-May-17, 12:19 PM
Thanks all for your replies. It's too bad TG isn't a real astronomical object; it'd have been nice to learn about it. Still; from the responses it seems to be something just as interesting: a fictional truth. One of those ideas created by one writer somewhere which is accepted by all. Sort of like Asimov's '3 Laws of Robotics'.
Therefore, not plagarism; raher than a use of the accepted unreality. Cool. :)

Rodina
2003-May-17, 02:03 PM
I like what Mark Twain had to say about Wagner:

"He's not as bad as he sounds."

snowcelt
2003-May-17, 05:15 PM
aporetic_r: I am glad you set the record about Nietzsche! Tired of hearing the uninformed speaking so.

informant
2003-May-17, 06:07 PM
Not entirely uninformed, excuse me. I have read some of his work, though not much, I admit.
However, I did read enough to know that, if Hitler blamed the economical and moral decline of Germany on the Jews, then Nietzsche blamed the philosophical decline of Western civilization on Jewish religion (and Christianity, which he regarded as a watered down mix of Judaism with Platonism).
aporetic_r was right, though, in that this alone does not constitute anti-Semitism. You can dislike Jewish religion without having some political agenda against Jews.

kucharek
2003-May-19, 07:07 AM
Uh, I'm German, but except what I learnt from '2001' and 'Apocalypse Now', I don't know anything about Wagner's music.

The music in ‘Apocalypse Now’ is the ‘Ride of the Valkyries’.
There’s no music by Wagner in ‘2001’. Maybe you’re thinking of Richard Strauss.

Uh, yup. I got somewhere lost in the Zarathustra, Nietsche, Wagner continuum and lgot lost about Strauss...

Harald

informant
2003-May-19, 08:23 AM
Thanks all for your replies. It's too bad TG isn't a real astronomical object; it'd have been nice to learn about it. Still; from the responses it seems to be something just as interesting: a fictional truth. One of those ideas created by one writer somewhere which is accepted by all. Sort of like Asimov's '3 Laws of Robotics'.
Therefore, not plagarism; raher than a use of the accepted unreality. Cool. :)

There should be other examples. I noticed that Heinlein used the term "Tellus" in some of his novels (for Earth, I think). E. E. Smith used Tellus Tertius in his Lensmen series.
Heinlein also called the Moon "Luna".

Avatar28
2003-May-19, 01:00 PM
And many sci-fi authors call the Earth by it's other (Latin?) name, Terra.

Defender
2003-May-19, 11:13 PM
Wow- normally, I come onto this site to learn all kinds of cool stuff. But now I know the answer to someone's question. Hurrah!

Anyway, the Tannhauser Gate isn't anything real. It first appeared (as people have said) in Rutger Hauer's speech at the end of Blade Runner, as his character dies. Hauer actually improvised that speech on the spot while filming the scene, and said he just wanted say something as evocative as possible.

Now, one of the co-writers of Blade Runner was David Webb Peoples, who wrote Unforgiven, and also Soldier. Soldier, as it was made, kind of sucks as a film, but the original script was supposed to be set in the same universe as Blade Runner. Kurt Russell's character was meant to be a replicant of the same type as Hauer's character in Blade Runner- a combat model. The Tannhauser Gate actually featured in this script as the location of a vast battle. It was supposed to be a huge wall of metal, an impregnable fortress bristling with futuristic weapons, but was cut from the script due to budgetary concerns. Now it survives in the final film as a brief mention in Russell's characters bio.

I'm sure any other mentions of the Gate are purely homages and in-jokes; it's such a strikingly memorable name. People will just chuck it into games and other media because they like it, but Blade Runner and Soldier have the Peoples connection, and as such, are 'official'.

Man, I rule at pub quizzes.

Tzuk_Te
2003-May-20, 01:33 AM
Tannhauser Gate is also a game developer....
http://www.thgate.com

DaveO
2003-May-20, 03:09 AM
Hey thanks, Defender!
Now that you mention it; I remember seeing some edited 'battle' clips in the original trailers; nothing with the Gate though. Damn; that'd have been one great effect to see! :D
I think that also says something for the quality of Rutger Hauer's performance; you only generally see him in shoot-em-up flicks; it's easy to forget he's a damn good actor.

Selenite
2003-May-20, 03:38 AM
Interesting thread. I've always wondered....

Does Roy Batty say I've seen C-Beams glitter in the dark at the Tannhauser Gate? Or seabeams? I've seen both spellings used. Not that it really matters...it is still fiction after all.

I once knew a fellow who used Roy's final words as his sig. Except he quoted "Attack ships on fire off the shores of Orion". When I told him it was more likely "the shoulder of Orion" he thought I was nuts. I guess everyone brings their interpretation. :D

Dickenmeyer
2003-May-20, 04:20 AM
... a cubic assload ...
That is my new favorite unit of measure.
No adamantium? Guess I'll just have to stick with General Products hull material.

freddo
2003-May-20, 05:42 AM
Here are a number of strange and wonderful molecules (http://www.bris.ac.uk/Depts/Chemistry/MOTM/silly/sillymols.htm)

A lot of the molecule names have rather rude double meanings (and I do apologise for the bottom at the top of the page - the rest of the visuals are clean)...

Adamantine is second from top!

ststeel
2003-May-20, 06:32 AM
Wagner's Tannhäuser and the Song Contest of the Wartburg (1845, revised 1861) is an opera about the Knight Tannhäuser, who is in lust with the goddess Venus, and in Love with the human Elizabeth. He lives deep in the mountain of Venusberg, but is magically sent back to the earth's surface through a portal when he wishes to be reunited with Elizabeth.

Heinlein had the "Hilton Tannhäuser" in Podkayne of Mars (1962) as a one line throw away for the name of a Hotel in the town of Venusburg, Venus. It's also an excellent name for a writer who wants a good name for a Earth <-> Venus transit system without falling into cliches like warp / tunnel / jumpgate etc.etc.etc.

aporetic_r
2003-May-20, 09:41 PM
As you all no doubt know, Hauer is Dutch, and he speaks German very fluently. He also tried to be a poet for a while. His first English language film was not until 1975. Considering all this, if he adlibbed the speech, he likely took it straight from Wagner, without the Heinlein connection. Even so, the Heinlein bit is still pretty cool.

Aporetic_r
www.polisci.wisc.edu/~rdparrish

informant
2003-May-20, 10:23 PM
I don’t see what could be the connection between Podkayne of Mars and Blade Runner. It seems a bit far-fetched. Besides, Heinlein does not use the phrase "Tannhäuser Gate".
It's more likely that the use of this expression was inspired by Philip K. Dick, who was of German ascendance and often used German words in his novels. He may have even used it sometime, although I don't remember ever reading it.

ststeel
2003-May-20, 11:25 PM
Sorry, I'll clarify

I think Heinlein and David Peoples (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Peoples,%20David%20Webb) were both inspired from the same Wagnerian source material. Rutger Hauer is on record as improvising the "All those moments will be lost, in time. Like tears in rain. Time to Die." but the earlier part of that speech is from the Peoples draft, according to Hauer himself.

(pp 195-196 Future Noir by Paul M Sammon, ISBN 0061053147 )

Carv
2003-May-23, 05:09 PM
Other "shared terms" in sf:

"cyberpunk"--William Gibson
"robot"--from the play R.U.R.
"sandworm"--notice the long skeleton on Tattooine (in fact most of Tattooine was "inspired" by Dune)
"unobtainium"--anyone know the origin of this word?
"Wherever you go, there you are"--a Zen koan quoted in Buckaroo Banzai, Star Trek, and many other sf movies and TV shows

tanstaafl
2003-May-23, 06:37 PM
Interesting thread. I've always wondered....

Does Roy Batty say I've seen C-Beams glitter in the dark at the Tannhauser Gate? Or seabeams? I've seen both spellings used. Not that it really matters...it is still fiction after all.

I once knew a fellow who used Roy's final words as his sig. Except he quoted "Attack ships on fire off the shores of Orion". When I told him it was more likely "the shoulder of Orion" he thought I was nuts. I guess everyone brings their interpretation. :D
To be honest, I always heard the line as "the shoals of Orion", which kind of works with "sea beams". (So does "shores" I suppose.) It makes sense if you assume the Tanhauser Gate is on an island called Orion somewhere and Batty was involved in an amphibious assault.

Carv
2003-May-23, 07:06 PM
I'm pretty sure it's "shoulder of Orion" and "c-beams," as in "c = the speed of light."

Tzuk_Te
2003-May-23, 07:37 PM
From the Blade Runner Movie (http://www.brmovie.com/BR_Quotes.htm) website:

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams ... glitter in the dark near Tanhauser Gate. All those ... moments will be lost ... in time, like tears ... in rain. Time ... to die

Rather interesting site with lots of BR info!

Tzuk Te

ChPuls
2004-Jan-05, 02:17 AM
Hi,
at first i want to apologize for my bad english. I am from Germany.
I know what the Tannhaeuser-Gate is, the "ae" in the middle is a german "Umlaut". The Tannhaeuser-Gate is named after/according to the astrophysican Tannhaeuser, who had following theory: When a suns stop to glow it changes to a dark star a black hole, its the same, the most massiv and heavy material you can think of due to this it has got a very high gravitation so high that it can draw up even light that is why it is absolute dark and no light is reflected back. Its an evidence that light must have an mass or weight or something comparable to other objects for example we are either drawn down to earth because the earth is much heavier than we are.
So turning back, when a dark star appears it bends the space. But we haven't yet the Tannhaeuser-Gate. The Tannhaeuser-Gate is when two dark stars come close together. I don't know why but next the tannhaeuser-gate appears and you can fly through it and if you flew the question is not where you go to but when!!! What is your time-destination!!!It is a time~gate.
I don't know exactly what c-beams are. Maybe it is the third part of the UV-beams of the sun that is absorbed by the atmosphere and you can't see them or cosmic-beams you normally not see and they are also sent by the sun and fly everytime through the earth and us. I don't know why they are glittering they must hit something to glitter. No you can see it sometimes at the northpol when beams from the sun are hitting the atmosphere northlights/aurora appear. It must be a great contrast image the very dark dark star and in front glittering beams.
Please tell me what you think of it.
Christian Puls

Sam5
2004-Jan-05, 03:50 AM
Uh, I'm German...

What does the German word “synchron” mean in English?

Diamond
2004-Jan-05, 09:52 AM
Don't know about Tannhauser (other then Wagner).

But "adamantine" (see http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/A0075900.html) is derived from the Greek for "unconquerable".
"Diamond" is also derived from the same Greek root.

[more than you ever wanted to know]
Diamond, of course, is composed of carbon. The smallest hydrocarbon molecule with a diamond like structure is called adamantane (see http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8048/8048notw4.html).
[/more than you ever wanted to know]

Sci-fi writers find this stuff and run off a cliff with it.

*ahem* 8)

Diamond
2004-Jan-05, 10:11 AM
Uh, I'm German...

What does the German word “synchron” mean in English?

:roll:

kucharek
2004-Jan-05, 12:46 PM
Uh, I'm German...

What does the German word “synchron” mean in English?

Well, I guess that's actually Greek... ;-) Just means "synchronous".

Harald

informant
2004-Jan-05, 02:06 PM
The Tannhaeuser-Gate is named after/according to the astrophysican Tannhaeuser, who had following theory: When a suns stop to glow it changes to a dark star the most massiv and heavy material you can think of due to this it has got a very high gravitation so high that it can draw up even light that is why it is absolute dark and no light is reflected back.
Hi, Christian.
It seems that you are talking about what we call a black hole. I think black holes were called 'dark stars' in the Soviet Union.
Your explanation for the Tannhaeuser Gate and C-beams is interesting, but I get the impression that maybe you're being too literal in your interpretation of the film. You should read this (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=88153#88153) post.

In any case, your contribution is interesting. Welcome to the BABB forum.

Chris_Powers
2004-Jan-05, 04:42 PM
Actually, I think Christian may be on the right track. Aside from the Blade Runner reference, the anime series Gunbuster includes a reference to the Tannhaeuser gate in connection with their space drive. As an interstitial between episodes, they include some rather funny lessons in science, or rather, the semi-fictional science used in various plot devices. Anyhow, one of these was their description of the Tannhaeuser Gate as what occurs as a spacecraft approaches C, just prior to entering hyperspace. They at least name the effect after Tannhaeuser.

As a side note (this really should be in Bad TV etc.), Gunbuster is one of the only series I can think of that deals with time dialtion at relativistic speeds. The herione returns from a brief jaunt to investigate a derelict spacecraft moving through the solar system at high speeds, spends only a few minutes on board, and returns to base many objective months later.

Sam5
2004-Jan-05, 05:06 PM
Uh, I'm German...

What does the German word “synchron” mean in English?

Well, I guess that's actually Greek... ;-) Just means "synchronous".

Harald

Thank you very much. That's what I thought it meant. :P

Can you read German well enough to translate a paragraph or two from a German science paper I found on the internet?

ChPuls
2004-Jan-05, 06:55 PM
Yes, you are right, informant, i meant a black hole but sometimes its also called dark star or black sun because it was a sun . I have edited it in my entry post at the first time it is mentioned. I have mentioned dark star because so that people don't think that you can fly through a 'black hole'. That's it.
My question is what the intention of this topic is: to find out what the meaning of the tannhaeuser gate is or to find out which role does it in the movie has.
There are further strange words mentioned in the movie for not germans more strange than for me. For example one time there is a street called "hundertwasser". Hundertwasser was an architect from austria who build very strange buildings that seem to be constructed without any ruler very colorful. Maybe even the word tannhaeuser was used because it sounds exotic and very interesting without any deeper meaning. But on the other hand you could ask how they travel such so long distances.
Bladerunner is generally about philosophy the question of life people ask where you go where you come from mentioned in the first original movie at the very end of the movie said in a monologue by the inner voice of deckard. In my opinion it is not so important for the understanding or intention of the movie if he was a replicant or not but that the replicants are not less important as us they are equivalent. And the bitter quote at the very end of the new version 'It's to bad they won't live but then again who does' makes it clear that they live in a world that build replicant equal to humans even the feelings they have and it doesn't esteem their life so that they aren't able to esteem their own life. I have found another link when i was looking for tannhaeuser. It is philosophy: http://tannhauser.blogalia.com/

kucharek
2004-Jan-08, 09:03 AM
Uh, I'm German...

What does the German word “synchron” mean in English?

Well, I guess that's actually Greek... ;-) Just means "synchronous".

Harald

Thank you very much. That's what I thought it meant. :P

Can you read German well enough to translate a paragraph or two from a German science paper I found on the internet?

Should I take this as a compliment that my English is so good you didn't recognized I'm a native German? ;-)

Harald

Sam5
2004-Jan-08, 05:13 PM
Should I take this as a compliment that my English is so good you didn't recognized I'm a native German? ;-)

Harald

Yes. lol, I didn’t notice your accent at all. :D

caligula
2004-Feb-24, 01:11 AM
TANNHAUSER GATE....REFERENCE TO D.S. TANNHUASER, PHYSICIST, WORKED WITH OPTICS, AND OPTICAL TELESCOPES

caligula
2004-Feb-24, 01:17 AM
LOOK AT TANNHAUSER'S CAMBRIDGE STUDIES, NOT BLACK HOLE , BUT DARKENED STARS , DIFFERENCE , PERHAPS IT WAS A TRI STAR SYSTEM , WHICH MAY BE REFERED TO AS A GATE, WHERE A SPACE BATTLE OCCURRED..................C-BEAMS? STRUCTURAL MEMBERS ? DEBRIS?

Musashi
2004-Feb-24, 01:39 AM
What?

Rc2000
2004-Feb-24, 02:54 AM
I'll second that.

What? :-?

sarongsong
2004-Feb-24, 06:48 AM
Good stories all. One more bit on Wagner:
"...Wagner began making sketches for his books on "Lohengren" while still working on his production of "Tannhauser". It is from "Lohengren" that one of the most famous passages in music history originates...commonly known as as "Here Comes The Bride"..."
http://www.rain.org/~karpeles/wedmchdis.html

Diamond
2004-Feb-24, 09:56 AM
Hey thanks, Defender!
Now that you mention it; I remember seeing some edited 'battle' clips in the original trailers; nothing with the Gate though. Damn; that'd have been one great effect to see! :D
I think that also says something for the quality of Rutger Hauer's performance; you only generally see him in shoot-em-up flicks; it's easy to forget he's a damn good actor.

Evocative is right. I think you'll find that that scene in Blade Runner will be remembered as a classic, a classic scene in a classic movie.