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stealthc
2002-Jan-31, 06:04 AM
I'm just a bit curious, you see I have a bit of a theory that time dialation might be different relative to gravity. Has anybody ever tried checking for this? Yes I do not disacknowledge that it may be different relative to velocity as well, I just think that gravity might be a second variable built right in there.
What I'm proposing is that what we consider to be nothing (hence the term "space") might actually be something, filled with the building blocks of even what we now consider to be the building blocks of eventually what we percieve to be matter (god that is a bit run on). It is the progression through these building blocks which causes ripples because they exhibit a duality (both attraction and repulsion) and that they are essentially monopoles(the two forces differ and thus a tendency to organise into lattices), thus their own "gravity" relative to motion, a centrifugal 3 dimensional force surrounding all matter which can be added to or subtracted to with more matter (because both the attractive forces and repulsive forces tend to combine and eventually that attractive force overpowers even the repulsive forces to form gravity even on earth), which are more densly packed with building blocks than what we consider to be empty space. But my theory goes further in that the effect we perceive to be time is in fact the effects of these ripples or motion. Hence the following idea:
Time should progress differently on a planet such as mars because mars has different gravity, and using einstien's equations on time dialation we can test that by determining the true velocity of mars. Is it possible to determine the difference between mars if it were stationary and it's current movement through the quantum jello of building blocks? (or come close enough to uncover an inconsistancy with the current theory of relativity so that we can link time with gravity and speed, and begin to come up with a unified theory?)
See as far as I can tell from physics everything points to yet even smaller building blocks of matter. Even building blocks for quarks (because of gluon transmission). Maybe even for photons. What I propose is that we are (a good metaphor) suspended in quantum jello, and that quantum jello determines even the speed of light, though very un-changing over even 100 human lifetimes. To measure such a change I think extremely precise measurements would be needed over a very long period of time (whatever that is relative to). I think we are nearing the bottom of a bell curve since at the time of the big bang this quantum jello density was higher, and that it is settling out still (hence the universe expanding) and that it is possible to measure at least two of these effects (but extremely challenging) and prove this theory. Can anybody prove me wrong?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stealthc on 2002-01-31 01:12 ]</font>

stealthc
2002-Jan-31, 06:16 AM
oh and an added theory to that would be instant teleportation. If one were to be isolated from that field, through means of increasing a repulsive effect, by creating more of that effect on the back of a vessel than the front of a vessel, you could travel through this foam instantly, the problem is you might have trouble stopping.
LOL
And this one:
The duality of these building blocks is relative to motion as well, if they are at rest they exhibit more of a repulsive effect than an attractive one, thus the big bang.
If this were the case, the universe would function like an elastic band (this seems likely) in which matter becomes so packed it turns into black holes which eventually merge all together to form what started the universe and eventually all motion ceases enough and bang! It all starts over again.
This might also explain the suspected symmetry of the object that gave birth to the universe and how, over time, that symmetry was broken.
It can also explain the zero point field, the ripples cause these building blocks to align enough to become particles for a brief instant and then they return out of alignment accept for events which we would consider to be of catastrophic nature would they align enough to retain their form as the next level of building blocks of matter. Who knows how many steps there are in between but doesn't this explain too many strange things about the universe and make a bit of sense?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stealthc on 2002-01-31 01:33 ]</font>

Kaptain K
2002-Jan-31, 09:49 AM
This is not a theory! It is *AT BEST* a hypothesis.

ChallegedChimp
2002-Jan-31, 12:58 PM
Just my monkey brain chiming in...but has anyone ever actually proved time existed and isn't just a response by our brain to seperate past, present, and future into easily divisible chunks? I mean we never see the future until we go into it, the present is gone as soon as we enter the future, and the past is forever gone once we leave it? I really don't think time travel is possible, btw. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I'll rely on the real brains here to help me, I have heard that astronauts come out of space at an infintisimally younger age (ie .0000001 years younger, completely fabricated number that was, just using it as an example) than they went in?

Kinda like asking you guys and gals "what is the meaning of life" but .... here goes: what is time? And how can it be a part of scientific equations when it is reduced to the duration between reaching point A and B? (cripes...time to get out of the deep end....I prefer playing in the shallow end of you'se peoples deeper thoughts)

That question is best surmised as "Ook?"

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Jan-31, 01:00 PM
On 2002-01-31 01:04, stealthc wrote:
I'm just a bit curious, you see I have a bit of a theory that time dialation might be different relative to gravity. Has anybody ever tried checking for this?
Yes, Einstein. In his theory of general relativity. Interestingly (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_183.html), the amount of time dilation at the equator of the earth due to the increased speed, because of rotation, is counterbalanced by the time dilation at the earth's poles due to increased gravitation. So, the observers at the poles see time progression the same as the observers at the equator.

ChallegedChimp
2002-Jan-31, 01:24 PM
Thanks GOW.

I shoulda known your big bulging brain we be along shortly to help me out. I thought that Einstein had broke it down a bit, but didna want to risk my "stupid monkey" repuatation by quoting it. Time as a divisble (no good word here but: an entity we can break down into numbers) force, and being the monkeys that we are, a force to messed with (it is the sticking your stalk (mk2) into the electrical outlet syndrome) can be a good thing methinks, but a bad thing also. When one of us primates (not you guys, you is developed) but an average monkey like me manages to stand on your shoulders and steal the knowledge of time travel.... methinks that could be a bad thing. But like another Einstein's great facts, let us hope that universal speed limit don't work. But then again.....we could be here altering our past right now and who would ever know? snicker.... keeps to the present me monkeys...the banana is there for only so long. Mebbe time travel will be scientist's holy grail. Till then, I just keep looking up at the stars and remarking to meself how pretty they are (good thing we got some brains out there watching over us and figuring it out, no end of appreciation for yall guys and gals going boldly where we can't)

ChallegedChimp
2002-Jan-31, 01:37 PM
BTW, Gow

Thanks for introducing me to that straightdope website. never saw it nad decided to peruse it considering a big brain like yourself linked it. Tis marvelous (the "why do people say Jesus H. Christ" question won me over...I say it meself without ever using my monkey brain to wonder why....)
Thanx a lot for that one
As I say, I can learn an awful lot by wading in the shallow end of you'se guys deeper thoughts.

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Jan-31, 02:03 PM
On 2002-01-31 08:37, ChallegedChimp wrote:
Thanks for introducing me to that straightdope website.
And, check out this poster to the SDMB (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109748).

ToSeek
2002-Jan-31, 02:10 PM
On 2002-01-31 09:03, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
And, check out this poster to the SDMB (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109748).


Good to know that somebody, somewhere is having a sober, serious discussion about matters of importance. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

DJ
2002-Jan-31, 04:59 PM
Time seems to be more a human component... the need to understand things in a linear fashion. May have to do with the way our brains are constructed, and that would be a relative thing to where we live (i.e. in the universe), and many other factors including composition of the sun itself.

Age, on the other hand, is more about transversal of light over cosmic distances... and light can travel in multiple directions simultaneously.

The manipulation of "time" right now is more the writings of Sci Fi and rifts caused by Star Trek:TNG episodes. "Tachyons-In-A-Can" seems to be the solution to many of their problems, including reconfiguring the main deflector dish to work on multiple dimensions.

It looks really silly when I type it out, no? 8-P

I suspect that as we get closer to understanding time, we will get closer to metaphysics. For to understand time separate from ourselves will be quite impossible... I guarantee it!

Wiley
2002-Jan-31, 07:41 PM
On 2002-01-31 08:00, GrapesOfWrath wrote:


On 2002-01-31 01:04, stealthc wrote:
I'm just a bit curious, you see I have a bit of a theory that time dialation might be different relative to gravity. Has anybody ever tried checking for this?
Yes, Einstein. In his theory of general relativity. Interestingly (http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_183.html), the amount of time dilation at the equator of the earth due to the increased speed, because of rotation, is counterbalanced by the time dilation at the earth's poles due to increased gravitation. So, the observers at the poles see time progression the same as the observers at the equator.


I must add to what Mad Dog wrote because (insert questionably witty and self-serving reason here). GPS also demonstrates that gravity affects time dilation. Gravity will cause the clock on the satellites to gain about 45 microseconds a day relative to clocks on the earth. However velocity mitigates this effect by reducing this gain to about 38 microseconds.

Russ
2002-Feb-01, 01:32 AM
Hello stealthc, welcome aboard.

You have an interesting postulate but I'm not sure it's testable or falsafiable. Something I'm very familiar with as I also have an un-testable/falsafiable hypothisis. It's my "feel of the force" that space is just a phase state of "something" that is also matter/energy. Sorta like vapor/water/ice are phase states of H2O.

I think currently we are pretty familiar with the solid (matter) and liquid (energy) phase states but we, as a species, haven't noticed the gaseous (space) state. I haven't been able to think up a test and, therefore, a falsification so I must wait for bigger brain than mine to figure it out. It does "feel" right to me though.

ChallegedChimp
2002-Feb-01, 02:01 PM
In reply to GOW and his link on chips....

Cripes?!?!?!
If this is what you serious minds think of in your off tijme, my monkey arse is knuckling away on the really serious subjects!!!!

(loved the link GOW, like I have said before: tis amazing what I can learn whilst dipping in the shallow end of you'se guys deeper thoughts). I can now theorictally explain potatoe chip wedges to the chimps at large. Dumb monkey, but getting 5 stars in trivia!!!! Good monkey! (no sarcasm, thanks GOW)

Wiley
2002-Feb-01, 03:06 PM
On 2002-02-01 09:01, ChallegedChimp wrote:
In reply to GOW and his link on chips....

Cripes?!?!?!
If this is what you serious minds think of in your off tijme, my monkey arse is knuckling away on the really serious subjects!!!!


If you had read the BA's last paragraph, you would realize there are tremendous cosmological ramifications of his question. If I may quote (I hope this is not copyrighted /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif):



Incidentally, this saddle shape is also usually used to depict the geometry of space-time in an open Universe. So there are cosmic implications for this question.


While your simian mind may not be able to grasp how the stress tensor effecting the chip's shape is analogous to Einstein's field tensor or how the saddle point allows the system to be stable, those of us who have opposable thumbs revel in the chip's simplification of the universe.
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Feb-01, 04:07 PM
On 2002-02-01 10:06, Wiley wrote:
While your simian mind may not be able to grasp how the stress tensor effecting the chip's shape is analogous to Einstein's field tensor or how the saddle point allows the system to be stable, those of us who have opposable thumbs revel in the chip's simplification of the universe.
[Homer Simpson voice]Mmmmm...spacetime[/Homer Simpson voice]

<font size=-1>[Fix Homer BBcode]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GrapesOfWrath on 2002-02-01 11:08 ]</font>

2002-Feb-08, 03:37 PM
<a name="20020208.9:00"> page 20020208.9:00 aka TIME_d
On 2002-01-31 01:04, stealthc wrote: To: 9:00 A.M. pst
8:there were lots and lots of lines here
7:and i was going to grab as many as i could
6:but they all got away. YES one time I had
5:a very personal direct experiance with this
4:due to shortage of lines it will be Xpressed as
3::|({[ = :EarthSea|Typhoon(Ship{POD[me
2:when inside a gravity wave pod, generated in the sea,
by the Typhoon Time did just as you say as I floated along..and it recompressed VIOLENTLY at breakup?

sarnian
2002-Feb-11, 09:16 PM
I do not believe that time exists exept as a measurement of the rate of change of events.
The efect of time dilation is to slow down all localised activity down to the lowest sub atomic level, the rate of slow down being dependant on factors such as speed and gravitational effects in acordance with Einstiens theory of relativity.
My hypothosis is that there is no past or future but only a continuous now. Past and present are abstract concepts we use to visualise what has happened or will happen and to measure duration.(In the same way that we measure length in miles or kilometers or lightyears or any number of other values non of which actualy exist in any tangible form).
In my opinion time travel is therfore imposible as 'time' can slow down, possibly stop but can never go backward

Chip
2002-Feb-11, 11:13 PM
On 2002-02-01 10:06, Wiley wrote:
"......chip's simplification of the universe."
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Hmmm...That also could be a veiled reference to most of my posts too! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

2002-Feb-12, 07:36 AM
<a name="20020212.1:00"> page 20020212.1:00 aka quantum jel
On 2002-01-31 01:04, stealthc wrote: To: JD2452318


the quantum jel
[x] yeah, i vote 4it

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Feb-12, 12:13 PM
On 2002-02-11 16:16, sarnian wrote:
In my opinion time travel is therfore imposible as 'time' can slow down, possibly stop but can never go backward

Yep. Sounds good to me, too. In fact, not only can you not undergo a negative time increment, you can't undergo a negative distance increment, either! So, that's symmetrical.