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TrAI
2003-May-18, 01:20 AM
Hello, i have been reading the posts on the BABB for a while now, and you all seem like nice people, so I thought I would try out this board, I am not shure of what group to post it under, but since it is inspired by this Planet-X stuff that I write it, I'll post it here :), it is just some thoughts about conspiracy theories really.

I have noticed that there are a lot of conspiracy-theories running around, and many of them are very negative to human understanding of how the universe works and to organisations and people working with science. I see statements of how poor our knowlage is and how the theories we have are wrong and without any backing evidence, and offcause, how the entire community of scientists are working against the truth, and will often have people forced or paid to silence, or maybe even have them murdered. There is also this entity that controls the entire world, called "the Government", this is the people who the scientists work for apparantly. Now, this organisation are some inconsistant creatures, they have access to technologies from crashed spacecraft, and advanced aliens, but they can't send a few people to the moon. They have the technology to cloak an entire killer planet from view, but still can't work out when this planet is going to kill most of us. Yes, because for some strange reason, they want to kill off a large chunk of the earths population, those left are apperantly going to be stuffed in some fenced in areas pending relocation, these are marked with secret codes on roadsigns, since the Government people are apparantly not capable of finding them on road.

Offcause governments must and do keep some secrets, and they impose som really wierd and even abusable laws sometime, but most conspiracy-theories are a bit to unlikely.

Anyway, back to the science part, looking at all this things people writes about things like Planet-X, the moonlanding, the impossibility of spacetravel and so on, a sort of pattern emerges, there are common traits, like the statements that the scientists suppress the facts, that the scientists are forced, brainwashed, paid, or in an other way made to support these deceptions, even amatures, sitting at home and playing with science for the thrill are part of this, and that the minds of people who dont belive in these theories are closed. But it doesn't take long before you see that the people stating these theories are the one who have closed their minds, it appears that they will not consider any alternative possibilities, some seemingly would not accept it even if the creator of the universe personaly presented the evidence with a signed verification of its validity..

This makes me think, what if there really is a conspiracy, I mean there are quite a few people out there beliving, or at least thinking there is a possibility that the points of the theories are true.

Think about it a moment. What might happen if enough people distrusted the scientific community? It loses the trust of the people it in the end are there for, those people who donates money, pay taxes that is used for reasearch, those who, in a way decides its future, the people whos children in the future might become a seeker of knowlage, but are still to be shaped. But this shaping is in the hands of the parents, they kan encurage or slay the childs curiosity, and the effects of this can last for the rest of the childs life.

So, if there is a conspiracy, it is not possible it is perpetrated by someone or something who don't want humans to learn, to understand, to know? A possible conspiracy-theory would be something like that an alien people(maybe like the zetas?) who, while having officialy a so called "non-interference" policy, want to keep the less knowlagable races down, either to prevent them from becoming rivals in the future, or maybe they want to come flying in, offering their own technology as gifts, and forge an alliance to help them when the time comes, and don't wish us to find our own way to do things and our own technology... Or like various gods wanted to keep humanity from learning things, like Zeus who in some versions of the greek mythology was afraid the humans might learn enough to rival him and the other gods(something about a prophesy wasn't it), and so forbade anyone teaching us(offcause Prometheus steals the fire from the gods, and gives it to the humans, and in doing so might have activated the prophesy)..

---
Well, It became a bit longer than expected(I do have a tendency to let my imagination fly off with my keyboard sometimes), and with far less astronomy than it possibly should have... Sorry about that, and my somewhat poor english. There may be some points in here somewere(very deep in maybe), but don't take my ranting to serius :wink:
______________________________________________
uhm, the little face laughs at me :o

Fluffis the evil Hamster
2003-May-18, 01:27 AM
Well, if you look at it that way, I guess anything IS possible, but I'd have to see some veeeeeery convincing proof to go along with that. :)
The thing is just that: Anything is possible. The only thing about that is that the burden of proof does not lie on the sceptics, but on the "believers."

I have, as of yet not seen ONE conspiracy theory that I believe in. There are some that are intriguing, to be sure, and perhaps have some lesser connection with real life, but most likely not in the way that the conspiracy theorists (is that even a word?) would have it.

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 01:31 AM
Even if people distrusted the scientific community, that distrust would fade away once people open their eyes and realize how much science has helped humanity.

But why would a ET race try to "keep us down"? It makes no sense to secretly show up and then start screwing around with the local populace. If anything, I think the ET's would come down and attempt to communicate with the humans, and some of the more intelligent animals.

There are conspiracies, true. But not one that can blanket the entire world in lies. What would be the point to murder 75% of the American population, only to herd the remaining 25% into work camps. Only in Sci-Fi do we get horror stories like this. Humans are naturally good, but corruption tags many of the higher-ups. That's why we have checks and balences to ensure things don't get out of hand.

A world-wide coverup? Doubtful. Look at the bickering over Iraq, or the ISS, or even SARS. It's almost impossible to get a group of governments to act in unison without some of them screwing up somewhere. That's why I like this planet, its a functional compilation of dysfunctional governments.

girl101
2003-May-18, 01:42 AM
A world-wide coverup? Doubtful. Look at the bickering over Iraq, or the ISS, or even SARS. It's almost impossible to get a group of governments to act in unison without some of them screwing up somewhere.

Beautiful point. :)

Girl 101[/quote]

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 01:48 AM
Why thank you! :D

TrAI
2003-May-18, 02:36 AM
Even if people distrusted the scientific community, that distrust would fade away once people open their eyes and realize how much science has helped humanity.

But why would a ET race try to "keep us down"? It makes no sense to secretly show up and then start screwing around with the local populace. If anything, I think the ET's would come down and attempt to communicate with the humans, and some of the more intelligent animals.

Well, you have that univertialy practical non-interference thing, if they did it openly, the other races would have to stop them. The reasons for wanting to "keep us down", would offcause be that this species need allies later, and by pretending to come in peace and ask our help against the "evil united people", and since we wouldn't have the technology needed for longrange spacetravel, we would in a way be dependant on these people for it. Or it might be like that story with Zeus, they are afraid of rivals, but can't visibly interfer..


There are conspiracies, true. But not one that can blanket the entire world in lies. What would be the point to murder 75% of the American population, only to herd the remaining 25% into work camps. Only in Sci-Fi do we get horror stories like this. Humans are naturally good, but corruption tags many of the higher-ups. That's why we have checks and balences to ensure things don't get out of hand.
Humans are not naturally good or bad, they have a few instincts, the rest is social programing, but that isn't really that important for this subject :-)
But you are right, it is strange to kill of a large part of the people here, and that is the whole point for mentioning that con.theory


A world-wide coverup? Doubtful. Look at the bickering over Iraq, or the ISS, or even SARS. It's almost impossible to get a group of governments to act in unison without some of them screwing up somewhere. That's why I like this planet, its a functional compilation of dysfunctional governments.

Many strange con.theories exist, and global conspiracy is a popular theme in some of them.

Maybe i didn't show it to clearly, this was ment as a tounge-in-cheek-type thing, you know how many of these con.theories seem to say everything would be better if everyone belives it, but in my try at a metaconpiracy-theory, where the conspiracy is that most other conspiracy theories are a plot to some dark end, but those spreding it doesn't know it... maybe it is a bit too extreme to have some aliens there... offcause if my post was completly serious, maybe this was a bad idea really :roll:..

maybe i should have said something simple and easy like "the pseudoscientifics in conspiracy-theories spreads false beliefs and the theories themself breeds distrust of science" uhm.. I seem to have violated this by posting my joke con.theory.. :o

*goes hiding in a corner*

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 03:09 AM
Maybe i didn't show it to clearly, this was ment as a tounge-in-cheek-type thing, you know how many of these con.theories seem to say everything would be better if everyone belives it, but in my try at a metaconpiracy-theory, where the conspiracy is that most other conspiracy theories are a plot to some dark end, but those spreding it doesn't know it... maybe it is a bit too extreme to have some aliens there... offcause if my post was completly serious, maybe this was a bad idea really :roll:..

maybe i should have said something simple and easy like "the pseudoscientifics in conspiracy-theories spreads false beliefs and the theories themself breeds distrust of science" uhm.. I seem to have violated this by posting my joke con.theory.. :o

*goes hiding in a corner*

Actually, I was just in a unusual mood to debate, even if the matter were tongue-in-cheek.

I do think it's funny, though. What if there were some ultra-secret angency of Toaster-worshippers who essentially spread wacky conspiracy theories about itself to the public?

It's perfect cover. You have nonsense like this Planet X, and everyone goes around debunking the intentionally sloppy reports that the Toasters have planted here and there. You have crackpots who are easily duped into "proving" the nonsense, and the whole thing is regarded as a show of stupidity.

(Damn, Luna is really orange tonight! Just started rising here at 11 pm EST)

Meanwhile, you have the real deal going on. It's been effectively disproven, based on the amount of disinformation and truth that is buried in it. Make people believe in it. But at the same time, the facts are blaring that it doesn't make sense.

It would work. Except that people don't organize very well on multinational scales. Hell, even nation-wide corporations have a hard time keeping track of everything going on within the infrastructure.

The plot would eventually leak out, and people will realize they've been duped. That's why the Apollo Hoax conspiracy would not work. Too many people are watching, with very prying eyes. The secret could not be kept long.

Archer17
2003-May-18, 04:07 AM
As a natural-born skeptic I see nothing wrong with questioning scientists, scientists question each other's theories all the time. (Take those Martian rocks found in Antarctica for example). The simple fact of the matter, in my humble opinion, is IF (not proven to me at this point) there are other civilizations "out there," there is a good chance they are unaware of our existence. If they used the same electromagnetic method of communication we use and they are within range, we would have detected them as well. If, as some of those Zeta-type groupies believe, they use an entirely different means of communication (telepathy, etc), then they would be so far advanced as to either overlook us or find us so primitive that a contact would be way too premature at this time. Either way, I don't think ET would find us worth the bother of a disinformation campaign.

TrAI
2003-May-18, 04:16 AM
Actually, I was just in a unusual mood to debate, even if the matter were tongue-in-cheek.

I do think it's funny, though. What if there were some ultra-secret angency of Toaster-worshippers who essentially spread wacky conspiracy theories about itself to the public?

It's perfect cover. You have nonsense like this Planet X, and everyone goes around debunking the intentionally sloppy reports that the Toasters have planted here and there. You have crackpots who are easily duped into "proving" the nonsense, and the whole thing is regarded as a show of stupidity.

(Damn, Luna is really orange tonight! Just started rising here at 11 pm EST)

Meanwhile, you have the real deal going on. It's been effectively disproven, based on the amount of disinformation and truth that is buried in it. Make people believe in it. But at the same time, the facts are blaring that it doesn't make sense.

It would work. Except that people don't organize very well on multinational scales. Hell, even nation-wide corporations have a hard time keeping track of everything going on within the infrastructure.

The plot would eventually leak out, and people will realize they've been duped. That's why the Apollo Hoax conspiracy would not work. Too many people are watching, with very prying eyes. The secret could not be kept long.

Yes, it does seem improbable with largescale conspiracies, but maybe if your goal is crazy enough, people might just think the people that gets away and spreads the message are mad or something..

I must say this whole Planet-X thing is sad really, if people bought it, they might have followed the instructions of the Zetatalk. Conspiracy theories are all fun and games until people starts taking them to seriously...

*looks out* no, its cloudy here, so i can't see any big cute rocks in the sky, no matter the color... time is 0615 here, unless those scary people from The Government has tampered with my clock that is... :wink:

TrAI
2003-May-18, 05:08 AM
As a natural-born skeptic I see nothing wrong with questioning scientists, scientists question each other's theories all the time. (Take those Martian rocks found in Antarctica for example). The simple fact of the matter, in my humble opinion, is IF (not proven to me at this point) there are other civilizations "out there," there is a good chance they are unaware of our existence. If they used the same electromagnetic method of communication we use and they are within range, we would have detected them as well. If, as some of those Zeta-type groupies believe, they use an entirely different means of communication (telepathy, etc), then they would be so far advanced as to either overlook us or find us so primitive that a contact would be way too premature at this time. Either way, I don't think ET would find us worth the bother of a disinformation campaign.

Yes, I to would say questioning is important in science... It is some of the point of leting other scientists read your teories, I would think...

I am not so sure about telepathy being advanced, it could be an intrinsic property of the species, and may have developed naturaly. The use of that specific word could also be an artifact of some translation prosses, couldn't it?, And it is in fact an implanted tranciver of some kind...

As to why an alien species might want to contact humans, now that is a good question, if they understand anything of the transmissions, they would probably file humans under dangerously unstable, and forget about it... you never know what would happen to aliens that comes to visit, but i guess contactmissions are inherently risky.. ;-)

Archer17
2003-May-18, 05:34 AM
TrAI, I want you to read this tomorrow (later today, technically):

I am not so sure about telepathy being advanced, it could be an intrinsic property of the species, and may have developed naturaly. The use of that specific word could also be an artifact of some translation prosses, couldn't it?, And it is in fact an implanted tranciver of some kind...

----------------------------------------

:roll:

TrAI
2003-May-18, 06:02 AM
TrAI, I want you to read this tomorrow (later today, technically):

I am not so sure about telepathy being advanced, it could be an intrinsic property of the species, and may have developed naturaly. The use of that specific word could also be an artifact of some translation prosses, couldn't it?, And it is in fact an implanted tranciver of some kind...

----------------------------------------

:roll:

hmmm, did I say something incoherent now? :lol: well, then I think it is bedtime... I'll read it again later :)

---

Well, now it is later, and it does seem to be something wrong with it, yes :lol:

What I ment is that telepathy isn't advanced, if it is a natural part of the species, but if it is introduced by genetic enginering, it might be indicative of advanced technology. The rest was about how "telepathy" might just be the word it gets in translation from the alien language, they might call it something that could be translated more accuratly. But I see i wasn't thinking to clearly this morning :lol:, a species who have implanted communication devices would have more advanced technology than us, at least in this field...

WolfKC
2003-May-18, 06:03 AM
hmmm, did I say something incoherent now? :lol: well, then I think it is bedtime... I'll read it again later :)
If you had brain implants like me and Nancy, you wouldn't need sleep.
:lol:

TrAI
2003-May-18, 06:19 AM
hmmm, did I say something incoherent now? :lol: well, then I think it is bedtime... I'll read it again later :)
If you had brain implants like me and Nancy, you wouldn't need sleep.
:lol:

Yes, but I already have enough voices in my head :( , and i have heard that with such devices there is the problem of it dialing up some random user at times you really dont want it to...


And then there is the unsolicited brainmails...
:lol:

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 12:23 PM
If the Zetas had advanced communication and telepathy...it still makes no sense. The Zetas that "talk" through Nancy are light-years away. Since they have had no physical contact, I would state that communication is impossible at that level.

Even in sci-fi, telepaths must have some sort of contact with the reciever (visual, touch, familiarity). That way the sender and reciever are on the same wavelength, so to speak. I've heard no such thing from Nancy, only that she volunteered herself to a brain transplant. Oh joy.

TrAI
2003-May-18, 12:50 PM
If the Zetas had advanced communication and telepathy...it still makes no sense. The Zetas that "talk" through Nancy are light-years away. Since they have had no physical contact, I would state that communication is impossible at that level.

Even in sci-fi, telepaths must have some sort of contact with the reciever (visual, touch, familiarity). That way the sender and reciever are on the same wavelength, so to speak. I've heard no such thing from Nancy, only that she volunteered herself to a brain transplant. Oh joy.

Yes... must use some kind of instant communications, there doesn't seem to be much of a lag.. if the zetas isn't close by, that is... maybe the implant is like the stored personalities and knowledge of some zetas, like constructs in cyberpunk-type books. But anyway, if i hear some voice in my head, I usually think it is more likely that it is something my own brain wipped up, than some alien implant :wink:...

Melanie
2003-May-18, 01:11 PM
What an interesting question - What is the appeal of conspiracy theories? You pointed out some hilarious contradictions btw.

I think many people who have their basic needs met are just damned bored. We watch all these movies about fighting the baddies and then we look around and the baddies in our lives are just so diffuse and boring. So hard to be a hero/vigilante these days! Who wants to try to help an ugly, mentally ill, homeless person when we could be fighting the great war against alien invasion/worldwide government coverups etc.

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 01:58 PM
I think part of it is the need to feel special. It's a human habit that's been around for a while. If someone knows about the ultra-secret conspiracy theory of |)(o)(o)|\/| and know one else knows, that makes them feel special. Even if the MIBs are secretly trailing them. It makes them feel smarter, too. I mean, you would feel pretty smart if you figured out the Conspiracy Theory of |)(o)(o)|\/| and managed to stay alive, wouldn't you?

[edit] My BBCode didn't wanna werk noh more

WolfKC
2003-May-18, 02:05 PM
If the Zetas had advanced communication and telepathy...it still makes no sense. The Zetas that "talk" through Nancy are light-years away. Since they have had no physical contact, I would state that communication is impossible at that level.

Even in sci-fi, telepaths must have some sort of contact with the reciever (visual, touch, familiarity). That way the sender and reciever are on the same wavelength, so to speak. I've heard no such thing from Nancy, only that she volunteered herself to a brain transplant. Oh joy.
Dont be silly. Didn't you know that the Zetas open up a micro-worm-hole whenever they want to talk to Nancy and I. Very similar to the one that Voyager uses to talk to Earth. :lol:
There's always a way to 'validate' the insane.

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 02:17 PM
If Nancy has one, I want one too, dammit!

beady
2003-May-18, 02:17 PM
I think part of it is the need to feel special.

My own theory is that it's based on personal insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. If misfortune is ruled by such things as Physics and Chance, then we are helplessly at the whim of impersonal and implacable forces from which there is no hope of appeal or redress. If, however, our misfortunes can be blamed on some malign intelligence (God, Satan, the Government, etc), then our problems are not our fault, there is a visible enemy, and the enemy can be fought, evaded or, just maybe, reasoned with.

Either way, by postulating an intelligence behind a catastrophy you imply the hope and possibility of either avoiding the catastrophe altogether, or of at least mitigating the damage. However slight, you will still have a measure of control over the event.

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 02:25 PM
I think part of it is the need to feel special.

My own theory is that it's based on personal insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. If misfortune is ruled by such things as Physics and Chance, then we are helplessly at the whim of impersonal and implacable forces from which there is no hope of appeal or redress. If, however, our misfortunes can be blamed on some malign intelligence (God, Satan, the Government, etc), then our problems are not our fault, there is a visible enemy, and the enemy can be fought, evaded or, just maybe, reasoned with.

Yeah, we do seem to blame or fortune and misfortune on forces beyond out control, don't we?


Either way, by postulating an intelligence behind a catastrophy you imply the hope and possibility of either avoiding the catastrophe altogether, or of at least mitigating the damage. However slight, you will still have a measure of control over the event.

There is a slight amount of control, yes. But to any conspiracy worth it's salt, one person is like a fly. Small threat , easily dealt with. There's a good point with that, however. If you are aware of a pending planned disaster, would you stick around to help prevent it? Or would you spout off about how you knew it would happen, and then run away before you get it too? Many Twinkies like to boast about what they say and know, but would they be willing to take the hypothetical bullet and prevent something from happening?

Look at Nancy. She's about as much of a Twinkie as Bart Sibrel is. She raves about the government conspiracy, and about Planet X. But would she do anything to really "help" those she preaches to? STO, my rear.

mjjoe
2003-May-18, 03:20 PM
Anyway, back to the science part, looking at all this things people writes about things like Planet-X, the moonlanding, the impossibility of spacetravel and so on, a sort of pattern emerges, there are common traits, like the statements that the scientists suppress the facts, that the scientists are forced, brainwashed, paid, or in an other way made to support these deceptions, even amatures, sitting at home and playing with science for the thrill are part of this, and that the minds of people who dont belive in these theories are closed.

Terrific points. It's clear the easiest way for conspiracy theorists to dismiss scientific evidence is to attack scientists for the simple reason that they can't argue the points made by the scientists themselves. Unable to argue with the message, they try to discredit the messenger.

Conspiracy theorists aren't the only ones guilty of that, of course. I've seen more than a few politicians dismiss scientific reports as being the work of "bureaucrats" or "eggheads in ivory towers" without taking into account just how much men and women of science must understand the world around them be be successful.

My friend's father is a geology prof at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, and he has some excellent (and extensive) thoughts on anti-intellectualism:

http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pscindx.htm

BTW, our host the Bad Astronomer linked to Dr. Dutch's page concerning the Moon Landing "Hoax" and the geology end of it.

Melanie
2003-May-18, 03:58 PM
It's clear the easiest way for conspiracy theorists to dismiss scientific evidence is to attack scientists for the simple reason that they can't argue the points made by the scientists themselves. Unable to argue with the message, they try to discredit the messenger.

This is occuring strongly in this case with the 'disinformation' rhetoric. Every dissenter is a 'disinformation' theorist.

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 05:18 PM
mjjoe, that's a great site that you posted the link for. Very informative.

Melanie, I think you're right about the "disinfo" rhetoric. The BA, SarahMC, and girl101 (among many others) are labelled as DisInformation agents that are paid by NASA. Anyone who disagrees or dissents (basically the same thing when dealing with ZetaCult) is a paid agent from NASA.

The HB's and Twinkies like Sibrel and Hoagland are like that too. They are a little less extreme than the PX'ers, but still tend to label dissenters as disinfo agents.

Melanie
2003-May-18, 05:33 PM
Verm,


The HB's and Twinkies like Sibrel and Hoagland are like that too

Who or what are these entities? :wink:
Mel.

WolfKC
2003-May-18, 05:44 PM
Verm,

The HB's and Twinkies like Sibrel and Hoagland are like that too Who or what are these entities? :wink: Mel.
I'm not sure but I think Twinkies are like Zetas but with a delicious creamy filling. :o
Actually, although i get the inference, I wouldn't mind a definition of some of these things

Vermonter
2003-May-18, 05:53 PM
HB = Hoax Believer, one who believes that the US did not step foot on the Moon.

Twinkie = aka Hoax Believer, aka Conspiracy Theorist. Much like the snackfood, bright, full of cream, and bad for you

Hoagland, Richard = Twinkie and Conspiracy Theorist. Believes that we did not go to the moon, and a proponent of Planet X, the face on Mars, and many other psuedo-science things. A "Lite" version of Lieder, though doesn't claim aliens talk to him. See "Lunar Conspiracies" forum.

Sibrel, Bart. Largest propenent of the HB's. King of all Twinkies. Was punched in the face by Buzz Aldrin after Bart ambushed him with a video camera. Believes there is a NASA coverup and hoax about the Moon Landings. Very fiesty and not nice to dissenters. Would pay good money to see him punched again. See "Lunar Conspiracies" forum.

Cheers. 8)