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peter eldergill
2007-Feb-18, 07:09 PM
...Is on TV right now...I'm gonna give it a try and see how long I can last

(I've never seen it)

Pete

Moose
2007-Feb-18, 07:59 PM
Pete, make a promise to yourself: No matter how bad it gets, you must watch it to the end so you can goggle in amazement at the kilrathi. 'Cause that's two hours of your life you'll never get back. It'd be a darn shame to waste the opportunity.

peter eldergill
2007-Feb-18, 09:06 PM
Well, I made it

Not as bad as I thought....but many stupid plot/character flaws, etc...

Is that what made it a bad movie? The Kilrathi were pretty poorly done...I've seen better on old episodes of Dr Who!

Pete

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-18, 09:20 PM
Let's see... what made it a bad movie?

1) Introduced many concepts that were, quite frankly, not necessary at all, changing almost everything in the Wing Commander universe (of which I'm sort've a fan of in the first place; I grew up playing the games).

2) Characters were pretty darn two-dimensional.

3) Totally unrealistic, both on the social level (intentionally forgetting the name of a pilot that died? Not on your life!), and the physics/astronomy level (not gonna go there).

4) Totally poorly done Kilrathi.

5) Like 3: It didn't make sense on many different levels.

Wing Commander 3 made a MUCH better movie than the movie itself. Go figure.

Moose
2007-Feb-18, 09:31 PM
Is that what made it a bad movie? The Kilrathi were pretty poorly done...I've seen better on old episodes of Dr Who!

Heh, did I say "goggle in amazement"? I meant to say "goggle in dismay and alarm". Now you know the true horror that is the movie Wing Commander.

The Kilrathi scene (in the singular, I might add) looked like they took a bad rubber dummy and threw it at the camera. Even the over-wiggly puppeteers in WC3 did menace so much better.

That atrocity pretty much ended Chris Roberts' career.

I should add that the "bulldoze a living pilot overboard" scene made me want to throw popcorn. Sooo many things wrong there.

peter eldergill
2007-Feb-18, 11:21 PM
i did roll my eyes a bit at the bulldozer...where to begin on that one!

Pete

Van Rijn
2007-Feb-19, 08:39 AM
I was impressed with asteroid dive bombing with actual dive bombing sound. It took "sound in space" to a whole new level.

Actually, that movie is something of a guilty pleasure for me. As silly and stupid as it was, and even given some of the annoyances versus the games (Angel should have a French accent, Paladin shouldn't) I still liked it - somewhat.

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-19, 04:20 PM
Actually, that movie is something of a guilty pleasure for me. As silly and stupid as it was, and even given some of the annoyances versus the games (Angel should have a French accent, Paladin shouldn't) I still liked it - somewhat.

You're a far far far far far far far far...

(Breathe)

...far far far more forgiving man than I.

I think that making a movie that was as much a travesty as the Wing Commander film should be punished by a court of law. Maybe not a huge punishment, just asking for, say, 90% of the profits to go towards education to help the IQ drainage that this cess pit takes from you.

Moose
2007-Feb-19, 04:47 PM
That's what, a dime?

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-19, 06:10 PM
That's what, a dime?

Okay, admittedly, there's a flaw to this concept. BUT, that's still one less dime than they have, leaving them unrewarded for bad content.

Van Rijn
2007-Feb-20, 03:04 AM
There are some movies I like, despite knowing they are stupid. There are some stupid movies that I hate, despite knowing they are fairly popular (Star Trek IV comes to mind). The physics and technology in the WC games had problems too, but I accepted that because they were games. I didn't think of this as so much a science fiction movie as a movie based on a game, with what were essentially comic book physics rules. And, of course, the games necessarily had thin plots, so . . .

Ultimately, it always comes down to personal likes and dislikes, which are subjective. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not.

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-20, 03:07 AM
Ultimately, it always comes down to personal likes and dislikes, which are subjective. Sometimes we agree, sometimes not.

Right, but when you disagree with me, you're wrong. It's the Lonewulf Is Always Right Law. :p

randycat99
2007-Feb-20, 07:23 AM
Didn't that jump-drive computer thingy look like a car amplifier?

...and how about that "Matrix-flyaround" scene when jumping? :D

3rdvogon
2007-Feb-20, 09:52 AM
Didn't that jump-drive computer thingy look like a car amplifier?

...and how about that "Matrix-flyaround" scene when jumping? :D

All I am going to say about "Wing Commander" is that it actually managed to make "Starship Troopers" look good.

Doodler
2007-Feb-20, 06:46 PM
All I am going to say about "Wing Commander" is that it actually managed to make "Starship Troopers" look good.

That's a toss up...

Ronald Brak
2007-Feb-20, 06:50 PM
All I am going to say about "Wing Commander" is that it actually managed to make "Starship Troopers" look good.

Starship Troopers was good.

But mind you, to me the movie was about evil humans attacking heroic bugs. I understand that not everyone saw it that way.

Matherly
2007-Feb-20, 06:53 PM
But mind you, to me the movie was about evil humans attacking heroic bugs. I understand that not everyone saw it that way.

Really? I though it was about evil directors attacking heroic authors.

VEHOOVEN!!! WE HATES IT FOREVER!!!

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-20, 11:00 PM
Starship Troopers was good.

But mind you, to me the movie was about evil humans attacking heroic bugs. I understand that not everyone saw it that way.

I did! I did! :D

Though I didn't see it quite that simply. No black and white "good" and "evil", just two different factions that, through various discrimination and miscommunication, ended up at war. While the humans were quite belligerant, used propaganda, and quite frankly were not very nice about it at all, a lot of the main characters had good reasons to be angry. When your entire hometown is destroyed, you tend to take it personally.

Not quite black and white, but definitely not all nice either.

Ronald Brak
2007-Feb-21, 08:10 AM
I did! I did!

Though I didn't see it quite that simply. No black and white "good" and "evil", just two different factions that, through various discrimination and miscommunication, ended up at war. While the humans were quite belligerant, used propaganda, and quite frankly were not very nice about it at all, a lot of the main characters had good reasons to be angry. When your entire hometown is destroyed, you tend to take it personally.

Not quite black and white, but definitely not all nice either.

If you are Dutch at least, I don't think you can miss the subtext of how it seems cool and all to be a stormtrooper fighting subhuman creatures to protect your race, but at the end of the movie it is clear that humans have become monsters. I don't even think it was the bugs that destroyed the city that started the war.

peter eldergill
2007-Feb-21, 01:55 PM
Are you guys reading too much into Starship Troopers? I liked the movie. I thought the effects were quite good, and the ladies in the movie? Pretty easy on the eyes (especially the redhead!)

I read the book a while back and thought it was pretty interesting, but it seemed a little dated to me.

I just didn't "get" Wing Commander, but I've never played the game either

Pete

Moose
2007-Feb-21, 03:34 PM
Are you guys reading too much into Starship Troopers? I liked the movie. I thought the effects were quite good, and the ladies in the movie? Pretty easy on the eyes (especially the redhead!)

Dina Meyer? Yeah. She was definitely easy on the eyes. Still is.

We're not really reading too much into it, though. Heinlein had a very specific (satirical) meaning when he wrote that. The guy who made the movie deliberately warped the meaning, basically (and admittedly) to hark off Heinlein. And to show Dina Meyer topless. Twice.

It's not like Wing Commander which really didn't have anything to say except possibly "Whoosh! Pow! Aren't the effects clever? Gimme money!"


I just didn't "get" Wing Commander, but I've never played the game either

There wasn't really anything there to "get". The whole "pilgrim" thing was whole-clothed nonsense, and the only things in common with the games are a few names, callsigns, and the franchise title.

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-21, 03:46 PM
If you are Dutch at least, I don't think you can miss the subtext of how it seems cool and all to be a stormtrooper fighting subhuman creatures to protect your race, but at the end of the movie it is clear that humans have become monsters.

Don't have to be Dutch. Heck, being American is enough, though I'm not on the receiving end there. SEE: What we did to the Native Americans.


I don't even think it was the bugs that destroyed the city that started the war.

Wow, conspiracy theory much? This actually has something going for it, but it seems more likely that the bugs attacked to me. We started a conflict with them, and they reacted proactively, knowing that we were going to invade sooner or later.

Though, come to think of it... you make a good point. It DID serve the humans more to invade the bugs than not.

Personally, the thing that bugged me most about Starship Troopers was the STUPID tactics.

For one, they SWARMED an area with soldiers, with some soldiers standing in front of others... which was a ridiculous and too tightly-packed formation. Just one bug bomb and you just lost a squad! Plus, there was absolutely no point at all to being neck-to-neck like that, especially with soldiers behind the front soldiers... if they had to get into a gunfight, it would be a mass crowd trying not to shoot each other.

For two, they got rid of the mech armor... which was mainly due to budget concerns, I know. But still! Mech armor! They could have done much more with much fewer that way.

For three, the tactics were just plain dumb. I can't iterate this enough.

Other than that, though, I liked the film. I especially loved the '50s Propaganda shorts, including how they injured a "bug" just to demonstrate it's fighting capability when injured. Talk about torture!

Moose
2007-Feb-21, 05:01 PM
Though, come to think of it... you make a good point. It DID serve the humans more to invade the bugs than not.

Remember that the city had gotten flattened by a meteor. The news only claimed it was done by the bugs. There was no direct evidence of that.

SolusLupus
2007-Feb-21, 09:08 PM
Remember that the city had gotten flattened by a meteor. The news only claimed it was done by the bugs. There was no direct evidence of that.


True, but it seems a bit dumb to destroy part of your own infrastructure as an excuse to declare war. I mean, it seems tantamount to cutting off your hand to have an excuse to get into a fistfight.

korjik
2007-Feb-21, 09:22 PM
Don't have to be Dutch. Heck, being American is enough, though I'm not on the receiving end there. SEE: What we did to the Native Americans.



Wow, conspiracy theory much? This actually has something going for it, but it seems more likely that the bugs attacked to me. We started a conflict with them, and they reacted proactively, knowing that we were going to invade sooner or later.

Though, come to think of it... you make a good point. It DID serve the humans more to invade the bugs than not.

Personally, the thing that bugged me most about Starship Troopers was the STUPID tactics.

For one, they SWARMED an area with soldiers, with some soldiers standing in front of others... which was a ridiculous and too tightly-packed formation. Just one bug bomb and you just lost a squad! Plus, there was absolutely no point at all to being neck-to-neck like that, especially with soldiers behind the front soldiers... if they had to get into a gunfight, it would be a mass crowd trying not to shoot each other.

For two, they got rid of the mech armor... which was mainly due to budget concerns, I know. But still! Mech armor! They could have done much more with much fewer that way.

For three, the tactics were just plain dumb. I can't iterate this enough.

Other than that, though, I liked the film. I especially loved the '50s Propaganda shorts, including how they injured a "bug" just to demonstrate it's fighting capability when injured. Talk about torture!

Stupid tactics and every war movie cliche they could find. It seemed to me to be a movie made by people who only knew about war from B rated war movies.

korjik
2007-Feb-21, 09:24 PM
True, but it seems a bit dumb to destroy part of your own infrastructure as an excuse to declare war. I mean, it seems tantamount to cutting off your hand to have an excuse to get into a fistfight.

but, but, there are at least two examples from real life! Look at Pearl Harbor and 9/11!

Sorry, I had a CT attack. all better now :D

Moose
2007-Feb-22, 12:16 AM
True, but it seems a bit dumb to destroy part of your own infrastructure as an excuse to declare war. I mean, it seems tantamount to cutting off your hand to have an excuse to get into a fistfight.

Consider the least malignant scenario that seems to fit the facts in evidence. (I'm basing this on the movie. I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet.)

1) Fact: A naturally ocurring meteor flattens Buenos Ares.

2) Fact: The "powers that be" did not prevent it.

You suggest that the "powers that be" may have been unwilling to prevent it. I think it's more likely that they were unable to prevent it.

3) Fact: The "powers that be" blamed the bugs and instigated war.

4) Fact: While the bugs were clearly able to shoot down starships in orbit, no means of achieving orbit or propelling anything into FTL was ever in evidence.

5) Analysis: Either the "powers" were already looking for an excuse to fight the bugs for some reason, or needed a "common enemy" to turn public wrath from them and/or exploit the public rage for some sort of personal gain. Either way, blaming the bugs to the point of what looked like genocidal warfare seems opportunistic in quite possibly the worst way imaginable in terms of morality as we understand it.

Re-reading this, it occurs to me that I should note very strongly that I am commenting only on Starship Troopers. Any perceived similarities to current events is entirely coincidental and most emphatically not intended.

Van Rijn
2007-Feb-22, 01:05 AM
Consider the least malignant scenario that seems to fit the facts in evidence. (I'm basing this on the movie. I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet.)


In the book, the Bugs had starships and made an attack on earth. That hadn't been the first battle, but it got the war rolling. In the book, it was definitely not a one sided war.



1) Fact: A naturally ocurring meteor flattens Buenos Ares.

2) Fact: The "powers that be" did not prevent it.

You suggest that the "powers that be" may have been unwilling to prevent it. I think it's more likely that they were unable to prevent it.

3) Fact: The "powers that be" blamed the bugs and instigated war.

4) Fact: While the bugs were clearly able to shoot down starships in orbit, no means of achieving orbit or propelling anything into FTL was ever in evidence.

5) Analysis: Either the "powers" were already looking for an excuse to fight the bugs for some reason, or needed a "common enemy" to turn public wrath from them and/or exploit the public rage for some sort of personal gain. Either way, blaming the bugs to the point of what looked like genocidal warfare seems opportunistic in quite possibly the worst way imaginable in terms of morality as we understand it.


The entire asteroid bit annoyed me. They couldn't have bug starships in the movie because they wanted to hide the bug's intelligence so they (maybe?) had an asteroid come from another star. The asteroid was seen by one of the characters in a ship well away from earth, where it had some weird gravity effects, then (apparently) it hit Earth almost immediately afterwords.

I'm not sure what was intended versus what was simply stupid writing and bad physics. FTL (sort of) asteroids really wouldn't be out of line in, for instance, Space: 1999. It could be just that silly, or it could be something else.

Moose
2007-Feb-22, 01:51 AM
The entire asteroid bit annoyed me. They couldn't have bug starships in the movie because they wanted to hide the bug's intelligence so they (maybe?) had an asteroid come from another star. The asteroid was seen by one of the characters in a ship well away from earth, where it had some weird gravity effects, then (apparently) it hit Earth almost immediately afterwords.

Here's a speculative idea: what if the asteroid was just meandering along at a sensible pace when the Roger Young (that was the name of the ship, wasn't it?) blundered near it.

Denise Richards' character either froze and sat there stupidly for ten seconds or so before taking evasive action, or decided to deliberately buzz the asteroid in her irresponsible white-scarf way.

Perhaps they'd gotten too close at FTL and the asteroid got swept by the backwash and flung FTL towards Earth. Maybe Denise Richards' character is entirely at fault for wiping out Buenos Ares.

For some strange reason, this idea appeals to me. This might shock and surprise you, but I'm not a big fan of Denise Richards' character.

I know! I was surprised myself when I found out!