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odysseus0101
2002-Feb-07, 05:11 AM
I just read that Buzz Aldrin and a research team (that may include some BA readers) are developing an Earth-Mars cruise service that could be up and running as early as 2018. The article can be read here: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002063480,00.html . The concept sounds very interesting, but I'm not an expert...

ToSeek
2002-Feb-07, 01:25 PM
Here's a link that works. (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002063480,00.html)

Aldrin has been pushing the "cycle" concept between Earth and Mars for a few years now. Apparently it's possible to set up a stable scheme whereby spacecraft shuttle between the planets on a regular basis.

odysseus0101
2002-Feb-07, 04:00 PM
On 2002-02-07 08:25, ToSeek wrote:
Here's a link that works. (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002063480,00.html)


That's a much better idea!

ToSeek
2002-Feb-07, 05:02 PM
On 2002-02-07 11:00, odysseus0101 wrote:


On 2002-02-07 08:25, ToSeek wrote:
Here's a link that works. (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002063480,00.html)


That's a much better idea!


Anyone who puts commas in a URL should be smacked.

Kaptain K
2002-Feb-07, 05:24 PM
I found this to be very interesting;

Modified versions of the space shuttle’s external fuel tank might be used as building units for constructing the cyclers in orbit, Dr Aldrin said.
Especially since I have mentioned (on this board) using the external fuel tanks as building blocks for a REAL Space Station (as opposed to the ISS boondoggle and financial black hole).

Argos
2002-Feb-07, 05:29 PM
It is like an endless train circling the US!It is the first time someone comes up with a feasible commercial scale conveyor system between Earth and the planets. The first time someone presents a project with real economic virtues. The project will be getting cheaper and cheaper as it cycles around the solar system. By the tenth cycle it will be paid off. The question is about how long it can operate in safety. Pack your bags, folks. Mars here we come!

PS> How come I didn't think of this concept before. Darn!

Chip
2002-Feb-07, 05:43 PM
Great concept, and I'm all for going to Mars. (I like Zubrin's ideas too!)

But...ah...wouldn't we want to build a place for people to stay on Mars before we get this transportation system going? I mean, wouldn't people want to go all that way and be able to land there too? (The Mars base would have to include full facilities, contained atmosphere, water, food, med center, labs, rooms, support systems, spare parts, etc.../phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

odysseus0101
2002-Feb-07, 08:27 PM
On 2002-02-07 12:02, ToSeek wrote:


On 2002-02-07 11:00, odysseus0101 wrote:


On 2002-02-07 08:25, ToSeek wrote:
Here's a link that works. (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,3-2002063480,00.html)


That's a much better idea!


Anyone who puts commas in a URL should be smacked.



Hmm... Obviously, the lack of paralinguistic cues in text messages means that statements can be misinterpreted quite easily, so I wanted to check and make sure you weren't suggesting that I be smacked for CTRL-C/CTRL-V -ing a URL that happened to include commas. One would find that difficult...

ToSeek
2002-Feb-07, 08:29 PM
On 2002-02-07 15:27, odysseus0101 wrote:

Hmm... Obviously, the lack of paralinguistic cues in text messages means that statements can be misinterpreted quite easily, so I wanted to check and make sure you weren't suggesting that I be smacked for CTRL-C/CTRL-V -ing a URL that happened to include commas. One would find that difficult...


No, if I'm going to smack anyone, it will be the benighted individual at The Times who set up their scheme of URLs with commas in. Not that that's going to be easy, either.

odysseus0101
2002-Feb-07, 08:38 PM
But...ah...wouldn't we want to build a place for people to stay on Mars before we get this transportation system going? I mean, wouldn't people want to go all that way and be able to land there too? (The Mars base would have to include full facilities, contained atmosphere, water, food, med center, labs, rooms, support systems, spare parts, etc.../phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


This made me think about the legal implications of a commercial cruise system to Mars. Of course there would be waivers galore, but in many instances waivers are useless formalities. I wonder if before Aldrin's plan takes off (no pun intended) various gov. agencies (e.g. OSHA) and Congress will have to pass legislation to cover such things as working conditions, passenger safety, etc. And then there is the argument over whether the US would even have jurisdiction - this is a techincal legal matter, but it looks like Aldrin's company is going to be a US corporation.

Chip
2002-Feb-07, 09:00 PM
On 2002-02-07 15:38, odysseus0101 wrote:
This made me think about the legal implications of a commercial cruise system to Mars.

I'm reminded of a great line from the old George Pal movie Destination Moon. Something like: "We've got to take off now before somebody passes a law forbiding it."

The Curtmudgeon
2002-Feb-07, 11:19 PM
On 2002-02-07 15:29, ToSeek wrote:
No, if I'm going to smack anyone, it will be the benighted individual at The Times who set up their scheme of URLs with commas in. Not that that's going to be easy, either.

Yeah, well, they're The Times, doncha know. Two centuries or so of doing everything your own way can get to be a habit. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

And Ody, don't sweat it. I've copied URLs here from The Times on several occasions, and every time I've had to go back and edit my post to correct the linkage.

The (but I still read The Times) Curtmudgeon

amstrad
2002-Feb-07, 11:56 PM
the orbital mechanics of this propsal are buggin me.

An orbital transfer is a trajectory that traces out an eliptical orbit whose perihelion is at the inner planets orbit and aphelion is at the outer planets orbit. It is quite obvious that you could plan an initial trip to leave Earth and arrive at Mars (this link explains very nicely how to do that: Orbital Transfers (http://www.cs.bsu.edu/homepages/dathomas/SpaceGrant/OrbitalTransfer.htm)). However, If the "cycler" vehicle left Mars immediately as proposed (since it will just be doing a fly-by), it will reach its perihelion and Earth will be long gone around its own orbit. Likewise any subsequent trips to Mars will reach Mars orbit, and Mars will not be there.

It seems to me that this proposal is only good for transfering material from one orbit to another, NOT from one planet to another.

Am I way off?

Chip
2002-Feb-08, 12:24 AM
On 2002-02-07 18:56, amstrad wrote:
"the orbital mechanics of this proposal are buggin me..." (amstrad explains...)
"Am I way off?"


I don't think you are. Consider in a general sense, the "natural" models of asteroids that orbit the sun from "near" Mar's orbital path and cross Earth's orbital path. Sometimes they come closer to Mars and also to Earth, and sometimes not. With a human designed Earth-to-Mars-and-back trajectory, each "trip" would have to be recalculated afresh I think. Or am I way off?

moonbuggy
2002-Feb-08, 12:57 AM
On 2002-02-07 15:38, odysseus0101 wrote:

This made me think about the legal implications of a commercial cruise system to Mars. Of course there would be waivers galore, but in many instances waivers are useless formalities. I wonder if before Aldrin's plan takes off (no pun intended) various gov. agencies (e.g. OSHA) and Congress will have to pass legislation to cover such things as working conditions, passenger safety, etc. And then there is the argument over whether the US would even have jurisdiction - this is a techincal legal matter, but it looks like Aldrin's company is going to be a US corporation.


Just think about why most of the big cruise ships on the seas are registered in Liberia... undoubtedly Liberia has the most relaxed rules and regulations when it comes to seafaring. I don't know this for a fact, but I would put money on it.

So I suppose the "company" who first sets this sort of thing up would look for the cheapest/easiest/minimalist(?) way of getting the thing legally going. Then again there might be a sharing of legislation between the countries involved in which case the system might be slightly better rulewise. Might be...
Peter

Kaptain K
2002-Feb-08, 10:07 AM
...However, If the "cycler" vehicle left Mars immediately as proposed (since it will just be doing a fly-by), it will reach its perihelion and Earth will be long gone around its own orbit. Likewise any subsequent trips to Mars will reach Mars orbit, and Mars will not be there...
The way I read the article, the "cycler" would use gravity assist at each planet to reshape the orbit so that it would arrive at the next planet, instead of an empty part of the orbit.

TANSTAAFL!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-02-08 05:12 ]</font>

2002-Feb-08, 03:26 PM
<a name="20020208.8:49"> page 20020208.8:49 aka Enr$
On 2002-02-08 05:07, Kaptain K wrote: To: 13 CHUEN 9 PAX
On the possible course that where the Money
goes may be the actuall D'bait? I rather `poise
that the E question has been solved & withheld or
Delayed. for political posturing Prime Time TV time
GE & others probably have Cu's in place
now about orbitals within the solar system
sure my old G program had solutions{many}
I `poise a rotating 8 would work just fine
call the top A and the bottem P for all i care

Simon
2002-Feb-08, 04:23 PM
On 2002-02-07 12:43, Chip wrote:
But...ah...wouldn't we want to build a place for people to stay on Mars before we get this transportation system going? I mean, wouldn't people want to go all that way and be able to land there too? (The Mars base would have to include full facilities, contained atmosphere, water, food, med center, labs, rooms, support systems, spare parts, etc.../phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


But again, how do you get the initial stuff there? You use this grav-assist system. You can get a spaceship to Mars without having a base on the planet, but it's hard to get a base on the planet if you don't have spaceships going there.

And on the legal grounds, I think jurisdiction at least would be covered by the Outer Space treaty... But yeah, there'd be a lot of stuff to work out. Do the astronauts get a union?

Oh, just by the way, a minor nitpick: Gravity-assists aren't the "inexhaustable supply" of energy the article claims they are. Each time you use a planet's gravity to nudge a spaceship outward, the planet gets nudged inward.
But since you're using a couple-hundered-ton spacecraft and an I-don't-want-to-calculate-how-many-ton-and-it-would-be-wrong-anyway planet, I think it's could qualify as a practically inexhaustable supply of energy. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Simon on 2002-02-08 11:26 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Simon on 2002-02-08 11:28 ]</font>