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nzedder
2003-May-27, 06:47 PM
I've just read on Cnn that a jet got hit by giant blocks of ice. Whilst that wouldn't worry me particularly, how come on Nancy's website they mention giant hail? And Giant blocks of ice falling from the sky isn't reported everyday worldwide. A bit freaky.

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 06:55 PM
It was hail, not blocks of ice.

Must be PX........get in the trench m'lady!

Protagonist
2003-May-27, 06:55 PM
Here is a link to the story -> news story (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/05/27/britain.hailstorm/index.html)

No where do I read that it was 'giant blocks of ice'. At the speeds that a jet flies at, small hail could cause plenty of damage.

WolfKC
2003-May-27, 07:00 PM
From ginness records (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/)

Heaviest Hailstones
The heaviest hailstones on record, weighing up to 1 kg (2.2 lb.), are reported to have killed 92 people in the Gopalganj district of Bangladesh, on April 14, 1986. The Eighties hailstorm wasn't the first time citizens of the Indian subcontinent have been struck by such freak weather conditions - hailstones thought to be the size of baseballs killed scores of people and 1,600 cattle in 1888, in the Moradabad and Beheri districts of India.
Largest Snowflake
It is reported that on Jan 28, 1887, at Fort Keogh, Montana, USA, ranch owner Matt Coleman measured a snowflake that was 38cm (15 in) wide and 8 in 20 cm thick, which he later described as being "larger than milk pans" in Monthly Weather Review magazine.

DragonRider
2003-May-27, 07:02 PM
Here is a link to the story -> news story (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/05/27/britain.hailstorm/index.html)

No where do I read that it was 'giant blocks of ice'. At the speeds that a jet flies at, small hail could cause plenty of damage.

......Although I agree wholeheatedly with your point that the speed of a commercial jet 'could cause plenty of damage', in the spirit of accuracy (of which Nancy knows nothing about) the story does mention 'blocks of ice'......Of course, that's the opinion of a passenger, not anyone who would know how much damage a 'giant block of ice' would do to a jetliner flying at cruising speed......


Bruce Johnstone, a 47-year-old photo-journalist who was travelling to Manchester for a family wedding, told PA: "If I had not been strapped in I would have bounced off the ceiling.

"People were thrown out of their seats. Some people were in the aisles on the floor. I was just hanging on for dear life.

"We had hit hail, blocks of ice. We heard it and it sounded like a machine gun." The flight landed at Manchester Airport about half an hour behind schedule on Monday at 7.10pm.

Comixx
2003-May-27, 07:04 PM
Hail is formed by particulates in the air being pushed upwards, getting a coating of water, going farther up and the water freezes, their weight draws them back down where they accumulate more water...then the storm system grows and the small water-covered ice particles get pushed upwards to re-freeze...over a period of time, and with sufficiently strong updrafts, hail can form and become quite large. The very strong updrafts associated with tornadic systems can create grapefruit-sized hail.

Now, imagine you're a commercial airliner travelling through the upper regions of a thunderstorm (which always have updrafts due to the warm/cold air mix which causes thunderstorms) where hail is being formed: You're moving at between 300 and 500 miles per hour, and you're protected only by sheet aluminum less than 1/4 inch thick...now you know why airliners avoid the upper regions of thunderstorms if they can. Damaging hail impacts are rare on airliners these days because of our sophisticated instruments and weather-detection capabilities...but sometimes it cannot be avoided...

nzedder
2003-May-27, 07:05 PM
Well ok,
One of the quotes from a passenger in that Cnn report said that they were hit by "blocks of ice". And they weren't injured because the aircraft has de-icing equipment.

skeptikal
2003-May-27, 07:07 PM
im sure this has happened before...relax

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 07:07 PM
The USAF would like to speak to the MFG of this aircraft that withstood the impacts of giant blocks of ice inflight and made it home safely! :)

They would further like to talk to the 747 operator above who released said ice blocks! :D

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 07:08 PM
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_785275.html

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 07:10 PM
And they weren't injured because the aircraft has de-icing equipment.

Now that was hilarious even if you are trolling.... de-icing ..... :lol:

DragonRider
2003-May-27, 07:11 PM
Well ok,
One of the quotes from a passenger in that Cnn report said that they were hit by "blocks of ice". And they weren't injured because the aircraft has de-icing equipment.


....Use logic on this, okay?......'A passenger' who was understandably upset, but still a passenger who wouldn't know what size the hail was, let alone the damage a 'block' of ice would do at cruising speed.....
...Further, if the passenger believes de-icing boots would protect the passengers from hail-strikes, it only further proves his unfamiliarity with aviation......If that is your assumption, I suggest a little more research on the use and limitations of 'de-icing equipment' aboard aircraft......

nzedder
2003-May-27, 07:14 PM
Excuse me! What does 'trolling' mean? I wasn't doing that thank you!

DragonRider
2003-May-27, 07:18 PM
Excuse me! What does 'trolling' mean? I wasn't doing that thank you!




troll
a.k.a. trolling

The act of posting a message in a newsgroup that is obviously exaggerating something on a particular topic, hoping to trick a newbie into posting a follow-up article that points out the mistake.

see also: flame bait , lurk .

http://www.netlingo.com/inframes.cfm

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 07:23 PM
If you don't know what it means, how do you know you weren't doing it?

Okay, I'll play.

Imagine you are going fast on the highway in your car. You are passing under a bridge. A person on the bridge drops a giant block of ice on your car's hood as you rocket by.........

Did you survive?

nzedder
2003-May-27, 07:27 PM
I'm not trying to 'flame' or 'troll' anyone. I've heard the term before but didn't know what it meant.
I suggest you lot do some research in good manners.!

Peace_Rules
2003-May-27, 07:31 PM
Ok, comix is basically correct, large thunderstorm updrafts create large hail. I see people qoting from the Guinness world records, this is misleading. Hail is always larger the higher up you go in the atmosphere. Why? Because it's colder. It makes perfect sense that aircraft would encounter hail, because aircraft fly at heights were hail stones are born. Just because a jet got hit with hail stones higher in the atmosphere, doesn't mean these hail stones would have reached the ground.

In the article, I saw only one passenger quoted as saying anything bizarre about the hail stones size. The spokesman for "bmi" made no sensational claims about the hail, just that the plane had recieved hail damge. In fact, the only thing that makes this story senstaional, is the fact a photo-journalist happened to be one of the passengers.

Comixx
2003-May-27, 07:33 PM
Something I learned while I was a passenger service agent in the USAF: never believe anything a passenger describes if it happened during turbulence, a storm, or during takeoff/landing.

Those events are highly charged, like rollercoaster rides. While people certainly do get injured during serious turbulence if they are not properly strapped in, they do not ride in aircraft which get bombarded by "blocks of ice". Furthermore, do you imagine a block of ice would sound like machine-gun fire, or more like a loud bang?

(From a google search for "largest hail world record") The largest hailstone recorded in the U.S., in circumference, was 17.5 inches. It fell on Coffeyville, Kansas on Sept. 3, 1970. The world’s heaviest hailstone weighed in at 2.25 lbs. It fell in the Gopalganj District of Bangladesh on April 14, 1986.

LTC8K6
2003-May-27, 07:36 PM
No one said you were, Nzedder.

However, the de-icing equipment line was awfully funny to have been unintentional humor.

Peace_Rules
2003-May-27, 07:37 PM
(From a google search for "largest hail world record") The largest hailstone recorded in the U.S., in circumference, was 17.5 inches. It fell on Coffeyville, Kansas on Sept. 3, 1970. The world’s heaviest hailstone weighed in at 2.25 lbs. It fell in the Gopalganj District of Bangladesh on April 14, 1986.

Largest hail stone to reach the ground, maybe. :)

DragonRider
2003-May-27, 07:46 PM
I'm not trying to 'flame' or 'troll' anyone. I've heard the term before but didn't know what it meant.
I suggest you lot do some research in good manners.!

....As I could conclude I fall into the 'you lot' category, here goes.....

Mr/Mrs/Ms. 'nzedder',
We who commonly inhabit this forum, which you will note is entitled 'Planet X', have become accustomed to people posting illogical notions with supposed links to Nancy Leider's 'Planet X'. These observations often take on the same logic as 'On the Zetatalk site they said the sun would rise in the East this morning. I set my alarm to check for myself and it did! I'm frightened about all of this, so could anyone explain why this happened?'
Now, your post regarding 'blocks of ice falling from the sky' and linking such prophecy of Nancy/Zeta with a news article describing a commercial flight that encountered a hailstorm may not seem to be in the same category. Alas, when suitable replies to such 'logic' recieved only a mention that 'de-icing equipment' prevented injury, any logic that may have remained was irrevocably lost.
However, if your intention was not to 'troll' but was a sincere request for information, you would be well served to apply simple logic to such matters first. Consider the average weight of a 'block of ice', the speed of a commercial airliner and the resulting damage the former would do to the latter if they met. Would you consider such a happenstance to be survivable with the information that anyone (who has heard about, let alone seen, a modern jetliner) might have at their disposal?
In conclusion, the idea that you were 'trolling' may be distasteful. That is perfectly understandable. However, would you rather we, the collective we in this instance, consider you a 'troll' or someone without the common sense to decipher this quandry without outside supervision?

Sincerely,
DragonRider

Comixx
2003-May-27, 07:51 PM
(From a google search for "largest hail world record") The largest hailstone recorded in the U.S., in circumference, was 17.5 inches. It fell on Coffeyville, Kansas on Sept. 3, 1970. The world’s heaviest hailstone weighed in at 2.25 lbs. It fell in the Gopalganj District of Bangladesh on April 14, 1986.

Largest hail stone to reach the ground, maybe. :)

Kinda hard to measure them in the air, dontcha think? ;) Anyways, I assumed since it specified where it fell, that measurement pertained to ground-bound hail, not airborne :P

The point of the matter is: planes encounter all kinds of things in the air...passengers give adrenaline-infused descriptions...World News articles are born.

edit to add: de-icers dont work the way most of the public believes they do -- mechanical de-icers are thin metal plates along the leading edges of the wings which are moved with pneumatic pumps to expand that edge very slightly, enough to crack the ice and dislodge it. Sometimes they have supplemental chemical de-icing agents sprayed onto the plane on the ground (usually potassium acitate) which incidentally is pink or white in color (you may have been on a plane being de-iced if you flew in the winter) and is the same chemical used in the airplane lavatories...lavatory water is only blue because of these little chemical blobs that are dropped in, called Blue Balls, to control the smell.

Peace_Rules
2003-May-27, 08:05 PM
(From a google search for "largest hail world record") The largest hailstone recorded in the U.S., in circumference, was 17.5 inches. It fell on Coffeyville, Kansas on Sept. 3, 1970. The world’s heaviest hailstone weighed in at 2.25 lbs. It fell in the Gopalganj District of Bangladesh on April 14, 1986.

Largest hail stone to reach the ground, maybe. :)

Kinda hard to measure them in the air, dontcha think? ;) Anyways, I assumed since it specified where it fell, that measurement pertained to ground-bound hail, not airborne :P

The point of the matter is: planes encounter all kinds of things in the air...passengers give adrenaline-infused descriptions...World News articles are born.

Just messing with you, Commix. You pointed out they were the largest "recorded" hail stones. I just wanted people to understand that hail stones are always larger the higher up you go in a thunderstorm. :D

I also want to point out something about the speed of the hail stones. Most thunderstoms capable of producing significant sized hail stones form in the jet stream. This stream of air can reach speeds over 200 mph by itself, add the speed of the updraft and speed of the plane on top of that, and it might be enough to make bb's sound like boulders.

Comixx
2003-May-27, 08:18 PM
SO, what we can say on the topic of the OP's tenuous link to Planet X: these events are not new, amazing, or even particularly noteworthy.

Nancy's prediction about hail is easy to figure out: She aimed for May=thunderstorms and severe weather happen in May=hail happens in thunderstorms and severe weather=Nancy was hedging her bets.

Never ever believe someone who says aliens talk to her inside her head.

nzedder
2003-May-27, 08:29 PM
Thanks to those who posted some good information on this hail.
Dragonrider. I'm a 35 mother who's the world's worst worrier. That's why I read this forum so I can dispel fears etc about this silly Planet X thing.
Sorry I'm not very scientifically minded or up with all these computer terms.
Have a good day :)

DragonRider
2003-May-27, 08:41 PM
Thanks to those who posted some good information on this hail.
Dragonrider. I'm a 35 mother who's the world's worst worrier. That's why I read this forum so I can dispel fears etc about this silly Planet X thing.
Sorry I'm not very scientifically minded or up with all these computer terms.
Have a good day :)

.....'nzedder', I for one have no problem with 'nonscientific' questions as I'm pretty much lost beyond the Big Dipper..... :)
...It's just that some things seem to be simple, but that can easily be the perception of that person, when it's not so simple to another.....I'm sure there are many things you find so simple that trying to explain them to me would be a nightmare......Ask my wife......I can build a house, but can't clean one worth spit.... :D
....Beyond all of the 'bruhaha' (if it helps) what I do is think about the fact that so many here, who know so very much more about this than I do, aren't worried.......That says a lot to me.....Don't worry.......And take care......

Charlie in Dayton
2003-May-28, 09:09 PM
At jetliner speeds forward, and hailstone speeds downward, the combined velocity vectors might very well make the inexperienced think that their aircraft was being bombarded by blocks of ice.

On Astronomy Day in Dayton OH, a lot of the outdoor activities were canceled due to weather. The hailstones measured over an inch in diameter.
http://mvas.org/gallery/trost/hail.jpg

TaeKwonDan
2003-May-28, 09:26 PM
About two months ago we had a bad hail storm here in Atlanta. It looked like it had snowed golf balls. I can send pictures of my car as to what these things did to a stationary object. The people in that aircraft are actually pretty lucky. Enough decent sized hail could probably bring down a plane or at least cause severe problems.

David Hall
2003-May-30, 07:20 PM
Not quite a giant hailstone story, but...

When I was in fifth grade, I lived for a short time in a small town in eastern Colorado. One day there was a hailstorm so intense that it coated the ground about a foot deep in little ice marbles. It literally looked like it had snowed in summer. There were 4 foot drifts in some places. But it was all solid ice, and it took weeks for it all to melt away. Freakiest weather I've ever been in, and I'll never forget it.

DragonRider
2003-May-30, 07:25 PM
.....Same here 'David Hall'.....Just another strange weather happening.....Back in.....ohhh, I guess it was 1983 or so, we had a hail storm in my hometown in Georgia that left 6" of hail piled up in drifts.....Destroyed my car as well, as a matter of fact, shattering the rear window, knocking off both rearview mirrors, destroying both taillights and generally beating the hell out of the whole thing....It was parked in an open parking-lot with the 'rear' of the car facing directly into the storm.......
.....I loved that car, too........A perfect 1977 Camaro LT with everything.....Paid off and in pristine condition.....Until then, that is.....

Byrd
2003-May-30, 07:27 PM
Also, do realize that pilots fly around storms as a rule (the air traffic controllers route them around storms to prevent damage (I'm a frequent flyer and have a friend who's an ATC.))

The minute a pilot started getting hit by hail and turbulence, they get on the radio, report it, and start asking for safer altitudes.

They don't fly around in it going, "WHEEE!!!!"

It's very very scary for us passengers, but I don't recall as many instances of turbulence in the past 10 years as I did in the 10 before that. I think that better weather equipment has eliminated most of this danger.

WolfKC
2003-May-30, 08:33 PM
They don't fly around in it going, "WHEEE!!!!" No wonder I couldn't get a pilots license! :o :P

The Supreme Canuck
2003-May-30, 08:36 PM
Oh, jeez! I didn't know you needed a license! :o I think I have some explaining to do.

Comixx
2003-May-30, 08:45 PM
Also, do realize that pilots fly around storms as a rule (the air traffic controllers route them around storms to prevent damage (I'm a frequent flyer and have a friend who's an ATC.))

The minute a pilot started getting hit by hail and turbulence, they get on the radio, report it, and start asking for safer altitudes.

They don't fly around in it going, "WHEEE!!!!"

It's very very scary for us passengers, but I don't recall as many instances of turbulence in the past 10 years as I did in the 10 before that. I think that better weather equipment has eliminated most of this danger.

Better equipment on the plane and the ground, as well as a better understanding of weather, and better computer models as a result, to predict hazardous patterns. I learned all I think I'll ever need to know about weather in the 3 years I lived in Wichita Kansas...tornados, straight-line winds (now called micro-bursts, I think), green clouds, lightning storms, etc, ad nauseum...the people have a saying there: If you dont like the weather, wait 15 minutes.

edit to add my anecdote: One day, in tornado season, we were watching the storm roll in...it started to rain, then hail, then snow (In August no less) - then I went to the kitchen on the other side of the house, glanced out the window at blue skies and sun...it was surreal to say the least. The dichotomy only lasted a few minutes, but it was a freaky few minutes!

Kaptain K
2003-May-30, 09:10 PM
Don't get me started on Kansas weather. I lived in Topeka from '60 to'77. Have no intention of ever going back (except to visit my sister and the nephews).

Peace_Rules
2003-May-30, 09:38 PM
Better equipment on the plane and the ground, as well as a better understanding of weather, and better computer models as a result, to predict hazardous patterns.

edit to add my anecdote: One day, in tornado season, we were watching the storm roll in...it started to rain, then hail, then snow (In August no less) - then I went to the kitchen on the other side of the house, glanced out the window at blue skies and sun...it was surreal to say the least. The dichotomy only lasted a few minutes, but it was a freaky few minutes!


While weather forecasting is leaps and bounds above what it was 10-15 years ago, it's still possible for freak severe storms (especially Hail producers) to develop in less than 15 minutes. This happens when a warm layer in the upper atmosphere (a cap) is suddenly replaced with a pocket of cold air. The cap suppresses thunderstorm development, and when the cold air rapidly replaces the cap, it can lead to violent updrafts. I'm sure this type of storm can still be unavoidable to pilots at times, even with the technology we have, they just develop so fast. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

Comixx, it sounds like you were very close to a major cold front. I've actually seen this happen myself, a couple of times. It sounds like you were hit with a super cell on the warm side of the front, and then had the temperature drop on the cold side enough to produce snow. Super cells are very isolated storms, they're more vertical than horizontal, so they are usually surrounded by clear skies. On average, these types of events occur in mid to late spring, August does sound very odd.

Reacher
2003-May-30, 11:34 PM
Finally, a subject I know about, and everything has been said already!

A few years ago, my aunt was having a new shed built in her back yard, of bricks, and the roof wasn't on, and the floor was covered in this fine sand stuff, all compacted, ready to have pavers/concrete laid on it, and there were sheets of plastic up to stop it from getting wet. Anyway, a massive hailstorm came along, and as well as cracking two sondows at the front of the house, it tore the plasic up and the compacted sand had to be re-compacted, or something like that.


Now, imagine you're a commercial airliner travelling through the upper regions of a thunderstorm

I always am.

^Yet another useless post by me. :-?

Comixx
2003-May-31, 02:06 AM
Hmm, I thought it was in August, but it could have been earlier in the summer...we're talking about teenager memories here :P

Anyways, Kansas always had the freakiest weather I've ever seen. But, my home here in Phoenix has it's share of impressive weather every year too when the Monsoon comes...it's my favorite time of year. Like clockwork, almost, huge thunderheads set up in the southeastern corner of the state and roll northwest...by the time they get to Phoenix, they're gigantic anvil-shaped storms with the deepest purple underbellies you've ever seen. They come into the city near sunset, so you have white anvil tops, orange to red below that, and the purple underbellies, and it's all underscored with amazingly bright and constant lightning. Then comes the wind and dust, then the quarter-sized raindrops (more like mud-drops at first)...the rain comes in earnest, sheeting down, reducing visibility to a few feet at times, and filling all our dry riverbeds with flash-floods. Then, it tapers off, and if the rain started early enough, the last rays of the setting sun make fantastic rainbows against the still-purple clouds...and then the show is over. The whole event takes between 3 and 7 hours, almost always starting around 3pm, most often over just before the sun sets. And they say the desert is a boring, dry, colorless place...I say visit us here and we can prove them wrong a million times over :)

WolfKC
2003-May-31, 05:35 AM
Giant Hail hits Denver :P (www.chipman.org/starhoax/gianthail.jpg)

The Supreme Canuck
2003-May-31, 03:58 PM
lol :lol: