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Phobos
2001-Oct-27, 11:41 AM
Any thoughts on the authentisity of this device as a potential spacecraft ?

Web page (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/pft03.htm)

They include the following movie a claimed tethered test flight;

video of nylon tethered craft (http://jnaudin.free.fr/videos/seb1dem1.rm)

Anyone know if the method used in the demonstration model would work outside of Earths atmosphere or is this some bad astronomy hoax?

The people who put up the site claim that the craft uses asymmetrical Poynting Flow for generating thrust.

Jeff


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-27 07:50 ]</font>

Alan
2001-Oct-27, 02:25 PM
A simple test would be to have the power cable come up from the bottom instead of the device hanging from it. Then see if it rises and moves around.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 03:14 AM
"Biefeld-Brown effect"

Does that ring a bell? My guess is it is very similar to the lifter's technology, the thrust not vertical but as they said oriented in a direction.

Poynting, I'll look into that.

Well, it really looks like I'll be building the damned device, see if I can make more sense of it. Plus it's a spectacular toy!

David Hall
2001-Oct-28, 03:57 AM
The video looks exactly like a tinfoil covered lampshade being dragged about on a wire to me. It isn't clear enough to see whether it's actually flying or just hanging there. It's too stable for one thing. No bobbing or tilting of any type. What kind of hovering technology could make something so rock-steady?

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 05:16 AM
I haven't had that much time looking at it, but actually the one that is just a little square, is suspended by a wire.

It's used to see if the principle can be used to develop thrust in a certain direction. It's a complex setup, the other, earlier one is easier.

When it is suspended by a wire, it is a directional thrust (asymetric) that is generated. The up and down movement is done with a symetric position, and I don't think it is actually flying by itself, the device's weight is too great for the thrust generated. Instead it is suspended to some sort of balance, with the equivalent weight the other side. It is used to determine just how much thrust is generated in the symetric position.

At least that's what I have seen in similar setups.

Next up understanding the lifter.

Does anyone know where I can find balsa wood? I'm not a very good carpenter and I certainly am not a master of construction (I usually unscrew a screw I am trying to get in and vice versa).

DStahl
2001-Oct-28, 07:47 AM
Balsa wood: Get on the blower and call some hobby shops, a lot of model builders use balsa and the shops usually have strips and sheets.

Oh, and here's a page on the Poynting theorem (http://web.mit.edu/6.013_book/www/chapter11/11.2.html), from an online MIT textbook.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DStahl on 2001-10-28 03:05 ]</font>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 01:11 PM
Geez! Thanks a lot DStahl, talk about raw efficiency, 2 problems solved in a 2 line post! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

That text will come in handy later on (Bookmarked) and thanks for the location of balsa wood, the elusive wood drove me nuts! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

TinFoilHat
2001-Oct-28, 02:01 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, it's not hovering at all. It's suspended on a nylon thread, and the point of the demonstration is not to show levitation but sustained horizontal thrust. Which in thic case could just be an ion wind effect.

I'm not impressed. Yet.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 02:32 PM
Not an ion wind effect. Look at the previous experiments.

I don't have as of yet enough info to make an opinion of the non-ion wind test.

Maybe you as an electrical engineer can. Your profile betrays you!

Quite frankly I'm happy to have an electrical engineer around to answer all those questions related to this material!

David Hall
2001-Oct-28, 03:57 PM
On 2001-10-28 09:01, TinFoilHat wrote:
Unless I'm mistaken, it's not hovering at all. It's suspended on a nylon thread, and the point of the demonstration is not to show levitation but sustained horizontal thrust. Which in thic case could just be an ion wind effect.

I'm not impressed. Yet.



Ok, I got it. I didn't pay enough attention to the site and didn't really understand the nature of the experiment.

It still looks like a lampshade to me.

Phobos
2001-Oct-28, 09:48 PM
For research purposes I think I should list the URL for the homepage for JLN Labs;

JLN Labs (http://jnaudin.free.fr/)

and Transdimensional Technologies;
Transdimension Tech (http://www.tdimension.com/lifter.html)

The technology seems to be based around patents by Tounsend Brown and A.H. Bahnson JR
Jan 1, 1965 US patent 3187206 (http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=ch&LG=fr&DB=EPD&PN=US3187206&ID=US+++3187206A1+I+)
Jan 4, 1966 US Patent 3227901 (http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/bnsviewer?CY=ch&LG=fr&DB=EPD&PN=US3227901&ID=US+++3227901A1+I+)

Also noteworthy the following NASA patent;
Sept 9, 2000, Nasa patent (http://www.ssti.org/Digest/Tables/090800t2.htm)
(see number 47 on this list)

If anyone has not seen the Transdimensional thread let me bring them up to speed. Mr X. and I have been researching this company and found that they have indeed been working with NASA on an advanced propulsion system (we performed various company and personnel checks). Having verified the company I then looked deeper into the technology they were using and found that JLN Labs were also peforming very similar test.

There seems to be a connection between the two companies. Transdimensional technologies is actually referenced on JLN Labs website at the following URL;
JLN-Transdimensional connection (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lifters.htm)

Since JLN's tests date back before the existance of Transdimensional Technologies I suspect either Transdimensional are in partnership with JLN or they have some less formal relationship between them.

NASA seems to give their stamp of approval on the technology (a grant and a JV), and given that the lifting technology could greatly reduce spacecraft launch costs I can see why (I have not yet confirmed that the propulsion system would work outside of Earths atmosphere).

Mr X. is particually interested in the JLN site because it gives construction details and has released more information than Transdimensional Technologies. However, we are now beginning to aquire information from TT via a connection of Mr X.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-28 18:06 ]</font>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 10:01 PM
I'll try to get in touch with Jean-Louis Naudin about those lifters.

I also give my personal seal of approval to Phobos. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Phobos
2001-Oct-28, 10:09 PM
Thanks Mr. X,

I though it safest starting this thread just in case the other one got too heated and had to be pulled.

Jeff

Mr. X
2001-Oct-28, 10:29 PM
Wise choice, Phobos. I guess it came this close to being either locked or deleted.

Kaptain K
2001-Oct-29, 02:18 AM
On 2001-10-28 17:29, Mr. X wrote:
Wise choice, Phobos. I guess it came this close to being either locked or deleted.


Were you holding your thumb an forefinger this far apart |--------| ? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Mr. X
2001-Oct-29, 03:05 AM
Funny you say that, cause I actually thought about that when posting that message. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I said I'd just let it be because I didn't know how to rephrase that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Phobos
2001-Oct-29, 05:27 PM
Mr.X I have some new links for you ...

The following is a link to 6th July 2001 edition of "The Hunstville Times";
Huntsville Times Article (http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/?Jul2001/6-e30685.html)

And here is a NASA related story from MSNBC which mentions the Ohio company "Superconductive Components";
MSNBC Space Technology Story (http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/625489.asp#BODY)

The following web pages show the other Antigravity reseach being conducted by/for NASA in Huntsville Alabama;
Static Test for A Gravitational Force Coupled to Type II YBCO Superconductors (http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/Papers/msfcuah1.html)
Trip Report to NASA Marshall Space Flight Center (http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/msfc-trip.html)

Plus other articles;
Others (http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/References/articles.html)

From the experiments that I have seen so far I am still suspicious that the lifting is produced by an ion wind effect, but given the NASA interest I guess there is more to it than that.

I would also like to issue you with a warning. If you plan to construct your own lifter you will need to find a lab with a technician qualified in handling high voltage electricity in the range 20-50 thousand volts.

Whilst it is may be possible to run a high voltage transformer off a normal domestic line I believe that this would be far too dangerous to consider undertaking the task yourself.

Don't even think about doing the experiment outside of a lab. It souldn't be too difficult finding a suitable test site but you cannot compromise on safety.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-29 15:21 ]</font>

Chip
2001-Oct-29, 11:47 PM
On 2001-10-27 07:41, Phobos wrote:
Any thoughts on the authentisity of this device as a potential spacecraft?...
Anyone know if the method used in the demonstration model would work outside of Earths atmosphere or is this some bad astronomy hoax?

The people who put up the site claim that the craft uses asymmetrical Poynting Flow for generating thrust.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-27 07:50 ]</font>


=====

Well, Crankdotnet (http://www.crank.net/new.html) lists it officially as "Illucid" - you can find it under "Tom Bearden" - third listing down.

I have noticed however that there is a fine Chinese restaurant in my neighborhood that has similar devices hanging over every table! Shhhh! (They are actually photon generators!) (Very advanced!) They allow me to read a newspaper while having my Kung Pao Chicken! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Chip

Phobos
2001-Oct-30, 12:56 AM
Well, Crankdotnet (http://www.crank.net/new.html) lists it officially as "Illucid" - you can find it under "Tom Bearden" - third listing down.


I have seen CrankDotNet and I cannot find the crudentials of the people (or crank) who runs it. It is a peculiar site which gives very short summaries to websites with little by way of justification - hardly scientific

I found the entry against Tom Bearden, but could not see the connection with Jean-Louis Naudin Laboratories (the people who ran the experiment).

Curiously I did see that CrankDotNet had 2 entries for NASA.

I can understand why you find the video humerous though. It does look like a reject from a 'B' movies sci-fi, but Mr X and myself are trying to establish if the experiments performed on this site and Transdimensional Technologies site are offering something more that a form of Ion propulsion.

Our interest stems from the claims by Transdimensional Technologies Jeffery A. Cameron that there is a gravity wave component in the lifter they are utilising (see other thread).

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-29 19:59 ]</font>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-30, 01:36 AM
According to Jean-Louis Naudin, this is not Ion wind propulsion.

Furthermore, I think that the paper of Jeffrey A. Cameron on Transdimensional's website does NOT refer to the lifter.

More on this later on, I'm attempting to get ahold of balsa wood, and my funky schedule doesn't match that of the store. Does that make sense to you? Closed SATURDAY AND SUNDAY!?

I'll buy a metric ton of that damned wood when I find it, that's for sure. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

The wood will probably going to be coming home on wednesday. Various other pieces before next monday (I hope).

I need to clarify some things with Jean-Louis Naudin, and since his language is the same as mine it will probably be a little less cryptic not translated. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

DStahl
2001-Oct-30, 04:03 AM
I have to go back and look--was the lifter on the TransDimensional Technologies page using the gravitational propulsion idea? After doing my best with Cameron's paper I have to note that as best I can understand he proposes to generate gravity waves by applying 'stress and strain' (sturm und drang?) to cylinders which he describes as "conceptually similar to what Weber used as a gravitational wave detector." Now since Weber's detector was an aluminum cylinder two meters long, and in the photograph I am looking at the diameter appears to be about 1 meter, making for, um, 1.5 m<sup>3</sup> of aluminium, I think that there must be something other mechanism in use by the lifter. (This info is from Kip Thorne's <U>Black Holes & Time Warps</U>, pages 367-368.)

Wait. Here in the paper it says that he proposes quartz elements measuring .03 X .03 X 3 cm, put side-by-side in an array 300 cm long--ie composed of some 10,000 elements. When vibrated in phase to produce a 'traveling wave gravitational wave' (Cameron's term) he expects the array to produce P<sub>TW</SUB> = (7 x 10<sup>-5</sup>)Gp<sup>2</sup>a<sup>2</sup>l<sup>2</sup>V<sub>s</sub>(V<sub>s</sub>/C)<sup>5</sup>(bw/v<sub>s</sub>)<sup>6</sup>omega, where a = the width and height of the elements, l = the number of elements, and omega = 2.7 x 10<sup>-2</sup>sr, or the solid angle of the radiation. (What did I just say? I don't really know, I was just quoting from Cameron's paper.) The paper notes that this is an estimate, so I also don't know how rigorously it describes the process Cameron envisions.

Rosen1, are you out there?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DStahl on 2001-10-29 23:03 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DStahl on 2001-10-29 23:04 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DStahl on 2001-10-30 14:21 ]</font>

Phobos
2001-Oct-30, 07:18 AM
http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/liftair.jpg

After seeing the construction notes of the triangular lifter from Jean-Louis's site (same lifter as seen on the Transdimensional video), I started having doubts that the lift was produced by anything other than by a localised effect of the movements of ionised air particles between the copper wire and the aluminum plate.

I wasn't sure, but it seemed reasonable that the lift was being produced as a byproduct of the ionisation/discharge of the localised air as it circulated locally between the copper wire and the aluminium plate (I could not say for certain that this was how they worked, but it seemed logical and this is why I questioned if they would work outside of the Earths atmosphere).

There did not seem to be much of a connection between how this lifter was working and what was being claimed as a possible anti-gravity/gravity wave propulsion system.

It would now seem that the triangular lifters were not the type that utilises this system, but were just one of the many varied tests that were along the road to this discovery.

I will now turn my attention to identifying which of the various propulsion systems best matches the technology Jeffery Cameron and NASA are concentrating on.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-30 04:48 ]</font>

Kaptain K
2001-Oct-30, 11:07 AM
I'll buy a metric ton of that damned wood when I find it, that's for sure.
You obviously have not priced balsa wood lately. Hint: Take a metric ton of folding money (large bills) with you. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

_________________
All else (is never) being equal.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2001-10-30 06:09 ]</font>

DStahl
2001-Oct-30, 07:53 PM
Phobos, et al: I got all antsy and decided to post a brief summary of the asymmetric gravity wave proposal on a physics forum to see what comments those guys have. The topic is at www.physicsforums.com (http://www.physicsforums.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2423&FORUM_ID=8&CAT_ID=3&Topic_Title=Spaceship+propulsion+using+gravity+wav es%3F&Forum_Title=Physics). Phobos: You may already know about this forum--there's a user with the Phobos handle that posts there, anyway! If there is any solid info posted there I'll notify y'all.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-30, 08:40 PM
On 2001-10-30 06:07, Kaptain K wrote:


You obviously have not priced balsa wood lately. Hint: Take a metric ton of folding money (large bills) with you. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif


Yarrgh, I'm not attractive... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Phobos
2001-Oct-30, 10:52 PM
I had a thought which may be worth checking out. If Transdimensional Technologies are using crystals of barium titanate, then it is possible what they are doing is experimenting with the Hutchison Effect.

The Hutchison Effect has had many scientific trials and can produce levitation amongst other things, but is not fully understood. However, we do know that the effect is produced using barium titanate so I was wondering if that is part of what they use.

Link to John Huthisons website - discoverer of the Hutchison Effect (http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html)

Brief explanation of the Hutchison Effect (http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/HEffect1.html)

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-30 18:03 ]</font>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-30, 10:56 PM
I really think the gravitational wave propulsion system paper has nothing to do with the lifter!

The lifter is clearly (not at transdimensional's place) described as the Biefeld-Brown effect. And it's supposed to work without any ion wind, but I'll have to verify that for myself.

Gwyddyon
2001-Oct-30, 10:58 PM
If you look at the video carefully, at about 1:46 or so into it you will see the tip of a rotating arm come into the very top of the picture. Do you think the generated force was enough to spin whatever it was suspended from? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Phobos
2001-Oct-30, 11:09 PM
On 2001-10-30 17:58, Gwyddyon wrote:
If you look at the video carefully, at about 1:46 or so into it you will see the tip of a rotating arm come into the very top of the picture. Do you think the generated force was enough to spin whatever it was suspended from? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
The test at the start of this thread was for lateral movement and the suspension was stated on their website and shown in the following diagram they gave with the video;

http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/pftv3d.jpg

They also performed tests where tethering is only to the ground to prevent the lifters from wandering off too far.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-30 22:51 ]</font>

Phobos
2001-Oct-31, 12:00 AM
On 2001-10-30 17:56, Mr. X wrote:
I really think the gravitational wave propulsion system paper has nothing to do with the lifter!

The lifter is clearly (not at transdimensional's place) described as the Biefeld-Brown effect. And it's supposed to work without any ion wind, but I'll have to verify that for myself.

I agree, from Jeffery Camerons paper the gravitational wave propulsion system requires an array of cells that generate gravity waves. The lifter only uses simple copper and aluminium components.

It may be that the high voltage electric current flow is producing a weak form of gravity wave, but I am not aware of a mechanism which would explain how this could be the case (of course it may be though some new process that we are not yet aware of).

For those interested, I can now supply a link to the Jeffery Camerons paper;
An Asymmetric Gravitational Wave Propulsion System (http://www.tdimension.com/documents/AIAA%202001%20Manuscript.pdf)

I noticed that they are also working on an optical energy transfer system as can be seen from the following quotes from their website;

Beamed Power Photodecomposition Propulsion System
TDT is developing a remote ultraviolet (UV) laser beam to photodecompose hydrogen peroxide (H202), the byproducts of which are used to provide thrust. The energy produced is then used to transfer energy to a propulsion system. This reduces the amount of propellant required, thus reducing mass. The rocket will be able to fly faster, farther, or carry more payload
And

Beamed Power
TDT is developing the use of an LED-pumped solid state dye as a high power, compact, wavelength tunable source for power beaming

I keep you informed of other developments.

Jeff

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2001-10-30 22:57 ]</font>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 06:11 PM
Ta ta ta ta ta!

Got my balsa wood and the cyanoacrylate glue for 1,80$ and 8,00$ respectively today!

Still have to do some very very very very basic calculations (6 year old and up) for the angles since there are little problematic things, overall should be done in less than 10 minutes if I wanted to do them now, but I won't since I have stuff to do.

I'll also go investigating the wonders of the power source this weekend, so I'll have all the instruments in hand pretty soon.

Blast! I forgot the very very thin wire when I went to get the wood. **Sigh** I'll get it along with the power source this weekend, and that's if I don't have to build the blasted transfo from spare parts because it is too expensive.

That is all.

I can't believe I am actually crazy enough to go through this, but what the hey.

I'll start a thread about construction/test of lifters after I am done building and testing mine + attempting to understand the effect better.

Well Ta! (For real this time)

(Edited because my keyboard is stupid. Or maybe it's the other way around.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-31 13:17 ]</font>

DStahl
2001-Oct-31, 07:19 PM
Hey, Mr. X! You must have the same kind of keyboard as me! *grin*

In Oregon, USA, thrift shops often sell used and dysfunctional electronic gadgets for a dollar or two. I don't know if they have any similar junkshops where you are, but the copper wire used to wrap the ferrite antennae in some AM radios is pretty fine stuff and might answer your needs cheaply.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 07:21 PM
Hmm, yes, but since it only costs a couple bucks I'll be okay, methinks.

That tranfo might be quite a hit, and I may need to build it, but there is a world of difference between my theoretical knowledge of those and practical knowledge, yikes!

Phobos
2002-Jan-30, 07:12 PM
Just found a link to another lifter with similar properties to the transdimensional technologies lifter (and guess what, they referr to transdimensional technologies);

Another Lifter (http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/majorde.htm)

http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/majorc.gif

This lifter make no claims as to spacecraft propulsion potential, instead they state clearly that their system is pure Ion propulsion technology.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-01-30 14:17 ]</font>

DStahl
2002-Feb-01, 01:16 AM
Phobos--I tried to revisit Jeffery Cameron's page with the paper on asymmetric gravitational propulsion and it had been pulled from the web, except for a horribly mangled html rendering of the original pdf which lingered in Google's archives. Any idea what's going on? Trans dim tech's homepage was also gone for a while, but now they have a title page up again, though no links to content. ??

(Wish I'd saved a pdf copy of that paper...)

Don Stahl

Kaptain K
2002-Feb-01, 12:46 PM
Phobos,
I remember seeing the device in your post in Popular Science magazine sometime in the '70s (in fact it was the cover story). Definitely "ion wind".

Phobos
2002-Feb-16, 02:01 AM
Sorry I haven't posted for a while - a combination of business pressures and christmas (plus a month working in Spain). I have to refresh my research before I can give new data, but I came across the Ion Drive which was unquestionably connected to the issues we have been discussing.

From things I have been hearing I also think the John Hutchison connection is worth further checking.

Phobos