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SkepticJ
2007-Jun-04, 06:11 AM
The bad guys (and gals, if 'guy' isn't a gender-neutral word to you. You're not limited to only binary-gendered species though, nor to beings that even have a gender.) of science fiction. You love them, or hate them, or love to hate them.

My nominations are Darth Vader, from Star Wars, Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg, from The Fifth Element and Lady 3Jane Marie-France Tessier-Ashpool, from Neuromancer.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-04, 08:04 AM
I suppose someone else is bound to nominate him, so I might as well get in there first. I nominate Mr Nasty from Doctor Who. (He's sometimes referred to as The Master.) But only the version played by Roger Delgado.

I hope nobody nominates Davros.

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-04, 08:53 AM
Colossus of the Forbin Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project). Nasty!

yuzuha
2007-Jun-04, 09:01 AM
Don't know about "best" but my favorite is the Moties from Mote in God's Eye.

Maksutov
2007-Jun-04, 09:05 AM
Colossus of the Forbin Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_The_Forbin_Project). Nasty!Quite, especially after the union with Guardian.

For me


There is nothing like the Borg,
Nothing in this world.
You might as well burn your mortgage
'Cause there's nothing like the Borg. That is, until they meet up with Warner (http://www.bwauto.com/)!

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-04, 09:20 AM
That is, until they meet up with Warner (http://www.bwauto.com/)!

Ouch! Again. I was thinking of the Borg from Next Generation. The Borg were great initially, then they had to muck it up with a Borg Queen. They were much more interesting when they were a collective, inhuman force that couldn't be personalized.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-04, 09:58 AM
The Borg were great initially, then they had to muck it up with a Borg Queen. They were much more interesting when they were a collective, inhuman force that couldn't be personalized.
Absolutely. Perhaps we could have a poll for the most ill-conceived or lamest antagonist - or for the most diminishing development of a formerly impressive antagonist.

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-04, 11:39 AM
I'll vote for the Terminator, although he plays a good guy role for the second two movies he built the franchise as a bad guy. Maybe the nod should really go to Skynet.

Of course, even Darth Vader becomes a goodie in the end. So, I'll put in a word for his evil master Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine.

NorthGuy
2007-Jun-04, 12:25 PM
Although it's been ages since I've seen any of the Flash Gordon serials, I at least have to mention Ming the Merciless.

Roy Batty
2007-Jun-04, 02:00 PM
Davr.... no wait, not really, sorry Paul :D

Dr. Eldon Tyrell from Blade Runner :)

The Alien Queen from Aliens. Oh & Carter J. Burke while we're at it!

The Predator from the 1st film.

The Creature from the ID, Forbidden Planet.

Trantor
2007-Jun-04, 03:13 PM
My favorite overall baddie is the Emperor Palpatine. He gave a great speech when he declared the beginning of the first Galactic Empire. He just looked so happy and so full of himself! Of course, I am also a big fan of Darth Vader, especially when he promotes subordinates or accepts appologies from them!

I do have to mention my favorite Star Trek baddie - Gul Dukat, from Deep Space Nine. He was great to watch. He so loved being bad; the speech he gave when he declared martial law was especially memorable.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-04, 03:23 PM
Baron Harkonnen from Dune, Ash from the first Alien film, HAL, General Xinchub from the webcomic Schlock Mercenary (not widely known, but a great villain nonetheless).

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jun-04, 04:15 PM
I can't believe noone has nominated Khan from Star Trek II. :confused:

Noclevername
2007-Jun-04, 04:38 PM
AM, the all-powerful AI from I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream. I was a kid when I read that, gave me nightmares. Very creepy.

ADDED: Lex Luthor, back in his Silver Age mad scientist days.

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jun-04, 04:50 PM
As long as we're including non-humans: Master Control Program from Tron.

JohnW
2007-Jun-04, 05:09 PM
Baron Harkonnen from Dune...

Bingo.

... HAL...
Bingo2

Also, the Inhibitors from Alastair Reynolds' Redemption Space trilogy.

TinFoilHat
2007-Jun-04, 05:28 PM
Does Heroes count as science fiction? I thought that Sylar was one of the better villains I've seen lately.

novaderrik
2007-Jun-04, 06:24 PM
Bender.

Alasdhair
2007-Jun-04, 06:31 PM
The Possessed from Peter Hamilton's Night's Dawn

Gillianren
2007-Jun-04, 07:50 PM
Zoey, from Quantum Leap?

Yeah, my first thought was the Baron as well. I like Feyd, but half of that is the pleasure of seeing young Sting in leather briefs. Yum!

Noclevername
2007-Jun-04, 09:21 PM
General Beauregard Darlington Winthrop III, from Rocheworld. Bester from Babylon 5.

Not sure about Sylar-- if we count him, we'll end up throwing in every supervillain ever made.

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-04, 10:02 PM
Bester is a great one. He had reasons for his actions. He wasn't a character that was "just evil."

redshifter
2007-Jun-05, 12:34 AM
Maj. Howard(?) Devore from the Chung Kuo series. Now there was a baddie!

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-05, 12:46 AM
The cadaverous über-villain Scorpius from Farscape.

Although often in Darth Vader's long shadow I suppose some mention could be made of Jabba the Hut and Boba Fett as worthy atagonists.

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jun-05, 12:52 AM
The Operative (played by Chiwetel Ejiofor) in the movie Serenity.

Lord Jubjub
2007-Jun-05, 01:02 AM
AM, the all-powerful AI from I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream. I was a kid when I read that, gave me nightmares. Very creepy.

Nasty piece of work. Should have been in the Best A.I. poll.

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-05, 01:13 AM
Anybody still recall the off-beat and bizarre sci-fi cable series Lexx? I figure His Divine Shadow and his sucessor Mantrid probably deserve a mention as well.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-05, 01:28 AM
Bender.

:D

If we're doing Futurama villains, Mom, The Giant Brain, the Robot Devil, and WERNSTROM!

Ilya
2007-Jun-05, 02:27 AM
Also, the Inhibitors from Alastair Reynolds' Redemption Space trilogy.

Alastair Reynolds is very good at creating villains, although I disagree about you picking Inhibitors. They are too much an impersonal force -- Berserkers with even less individuality.

But almost every character from Reynld's "Chasm City" has various degrees of villainy, and most of them are COOL. Especially the protagonist.

Actually, now that I think of it, Jack Tanner/Cahuella/Sky Haussmann probably IS the greatest (human) villain in science fiction. Of course, he cheats by having three very different personalities. For those who had not read "Chasm City" and the rest of Inhibitors series: Cahuella is an utterly self-centered, flamboyant, almost theatrical crime lord with a passion for hunting. Part Tony Soprano, part Jack Sparrow. Sky Haussmann is truly creepy -- brilliant, charismatic, and incredibly patient sadist and psychopath. Hannibal Lechter with political power. And Jack Tanner is not really a villain -- a very cold-blooded, but honorable soldier with almost supernatural combat skills. Brooding, and driven by what he knows is a hopeless vendetta. Part James Bond, part Elric of Melnibone.

And if you want to include utterly inhuman aliens among "best antagonist", I think you can't do better than MorningLightMountain in Peter Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" and its sequel. A hive intelligence similar to Borg or Inhibitors, but far better fleshed out. Hamilton managed to do what I really thought to be impossible -- presented the viewpoint of an intelligence so different as to find humans incomprehensible, and made the reader understand that viewpoint. Which makes MorningLightMountain even more terrifying.

Ilya
2007-Jun-05, 02:32 AM
Don't know about "best" but my favorite is the Moties from Mote in God's Eye.

Curious thing about "Mote in God's Eye", Moties are consistently presented in a very sympathetic light. It takes an effort to remember that if they ever break out of Mote system, it is curtains for the human race. And Moties are not even "evil" by any reasonable definition, they just can't help their nature. Teddy bear Terminators.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-05, 03:12 AM
Grand Senator Bronson from Jerry Pournelle's Mercenary series.
Lore.
Achilles from Ender's Shadow.
"Edgar", the bug in a man suit from Men In Black.
Dr. Emilio Lizardo, Buckaroo Banzai
The Dark Overlord of the Universe, from the art film Howard the Duck.
The T-Rex from Jurassic Park!
The Giant Alien Chick from Dude, Where's My Car!

ADDED: Sorry, I'm a little loopy. Goodnight.

Maksutov
2007-Jun-05, 12:20 PM
Bender.You got your shiny metal [deleted] right on that one!


Oh, no room for Bender, huh? Fine!
I'll go build my own lunar lander, with blackjack
and hookers. In fact, forget the lunar
lander and the blackjack.

Palomar
2007-Jun-05, 01:10 PM
Darths Sidious & Vader, Star Wars.

V-GER
2007-Jun-05, 01:59 PM
Darths Sidious & Vader, Star Wars.

Sir Guy of Gisbourne from Robin of Sherwood and of course Dr. Doom!

Q is a great character as well.

OneHotJupiter
2007-Jun-05, 02:20 PM
1.Darth Sidious/Palpatine
2.Skeletor
3.The Nothing

Larry Cunningham
2007-Jun-05, 03:56 PM
ALL those rotten little teddy bear-like critters in the Star Wars movies, which screw up an otherwise watchable scifi epic..

L.

Matherly
2007-Jun-05, 04:52 PM
The Mule, from the Foundation stories.

Weird Dave
2007-Jun-05, 08:06 PM
And if you want to include utterly inhuman aliens among "best antagonist", I think you can't do better than MorningLightMountain in Peter Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" and its sequel. A hive intelligence similar to Borg or Inhibitors, but far better fleshed out. Hamilton managed to do what I really thought to be impossible -- presented the viewpoint of an intelligence so different as to find humans incomprehensible, and made the reader understand that viewpoint. Which makes MorningLightMountain even more terrifying.
I was going to vote for MorningLightMountain too. Nothing morally ambiguous about THAT antagonist.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-06, 06:16 AM
Oh, I forgot; Nixon's Head and Santabot from Futurama. And the original Baltar from the original BG.

Maksutov
2007-Jun-06, 07:27 AM
ALL those rotten little teddy bear-like critters in the Star Wars movies, which screw up an otherwise watchable scifi epic..

L.Hear, hear!

Lucas had no clue what a great thing he had going with the Wookies. Perhaps The Star Wars Holiday Special (http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/) clouded his mind, as it still does whenever watched by ordinary mortals.

Meanwhile I nominate the Matmos from Barbarella (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062711/).

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-06, 08:44 AM
ALL those rotten little teddy bear-like critters in the Star Wars movies, which screw up an otherwise watchable scifi epic..

L.

I agree. For the Ewoks we can probably thank that great antagonist of science fiction, the Marketing Department. Oooo. Make 'em cute and furry and those Ewok dolls will fly off the shelves faster than X-Wing fighters.

Glom
2007-Jun-06, 12:29 PM
Ah yes. Dukat. An excellent villain for the first six and a half seasons. What speech was that when he declared martial law?

Noclevername
2007-Jun-07, 04:08 AM
Anybody still recall the off-beat and bizarre sci-fi cable series Lexx? I figure His Divine Shadow and his sucessor Mantrid probably deserve a mention as well.


The new guy, Prince, who was supposed to be the next Big Bad on the show, until the stinkbomb last season when he became just as much of a lame joke as everything else that was happening. But he'd started scary.

Trantor
2007-Jun-07, 05:44 PM
Ah yes. Dukat. An excellent villain for the first six and a half seasons. What speech was that when he declared martial law?

When the Dominion and the Cardassian Union were allies, the Dominion put Dukat in control as the new leader of the Cardassian Union. Right after he was put in charge, Dukat gave a great little speech, seen by the crew of DS9 on video. Basically, he tells everyone that he is now in charge(and he looked so pleased with himself!) and that martial law was being put into place. Of course, he then went into the penalties for disobeying him - Death!!

Then later in the episode, dissaster struck! DS9 was recaptured by the Federation and poor Dukat lost the power that was given to him by his Dominion overlords. He looked so sad. He just kept saying "I had it", "I had it"!!! Truly sad.

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-07, 06:38 PM
I nominate Number Six from Battlestar Galactica (season 1, which is as far as I have watched so far ... will be getting season 2 boxed set soon I hope).

Roy Batty
2007-Jun-07, 07:06 PM
I nominate Number Six from Battlestar Galactica (season 1, which is as far as I have watched so far ... will be getting season 2 boxed set soon I hope).
I nominate Number One from The Prisoner (whoever that was! & those 'bubbles' :)).

Roy Batty
2007-Jun-08, 02:50 PM
Now how could I of forgotten these favourites!

Servalan from Blake's Seven.

DuQuesne from E.E.Doc Smith's Skylark novels.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-08, 06:41 PM
Lucifer, from the original BG, with his oh-so-insincere "By your command".

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-08, 06:59 PM
I nominate Number One from The Prisoner (whoever that was! & those 'bubbles' :)).

Rover.

Well, he was called that in precisely one episode!

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-08, 08:25 PM
Roy, you've raised a good point. Servalan is an even better baddie than Number Six.

Roy Batty
2007-Jun-09, 12:31 PM
Rover.

Well, he was called that in precisely one episode!

Oh yes that rings a bell, that's what the 'bubbles' were called wasn't it?

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-09, 04:29 PM
Servalan from Blake's Seven.

Excellent choice. You could almost make a case for Avon, ruthless anti-hero that he was. :)

Roy Batty
2007-Jun-09, 05:02 PM
Excellent choice. You could almost make a case for Avon, ruthless anti-hero that he was. :)

Doh!:doh:Of course. One of my favourite actors :)
Tarrent was pretty rubbish as villain/henchman, Servalan was great :)

publiusr
2007-Jun-09, 07:19 PM
The evil one from Time Bandits. Warner played Sark in Tron.

Moose
2007-Jun-09, 11:46 PM
I got a special kick out of the Emperor of the Daleks from the end of Dr Who, season 1 (new series). Not that he was particularly effective, but the voice effects were neat.

Occam's Shaving Cream
2007-Jun-10, 04:22 PM
Star Trek's Q . Not really evil, but should be on the list.

The Shrike from the Hyperion Saga. A mysterious machinegod from the future who can manipulate time and has knives for fingers on his 4 arms.

Oh, Morbo and the ruler of Omicron Persei 8! (Futurama)

NorthGuy
2007-Jun-10, 08:06 PM
Dr. Smith from Lost in Space (the TV series) mostly by virtue of always being played to the hilt by character actor Jonathan Harris.

Doctor Know
2007-Jun-10, 09:56 PM
The slimey corporate lord of Mars, Cohagen from Total Recall. "C'mon Cohagen, give dese people AIR!"

Gillianren
2007-Jun-11, 11:59 PM
Star Trek's Q . Not really evil, but should be on the list.

Well, of course, "antagonist" and "evil" are not the same thing. I mean, you do get more than a few evil antagonists. However, literally speaking, an antagonist is merely someone who opposes the protagonist.

novaderrik
2007-Jun-12, 01:37 AM
can Q really be called an antagonist? it turned out in the end that he was merely observing and trying to help the humans pass the test and be allowed to continue existing. sure, he might have meddled here and there, and made things tougher for Picard and crew from time to time, but he was doing it for their own good. it was really actually tough love.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-12, 01:57 AM
can Q really be called an antagonist? it turned out in the end that he was merely observing and trying to help the humans pass the test and be allowed to continue existing. sure, he might have meddled here and there, and made things tougher for Picard and crew from time to time, but he was doing it for their own good. it was really actually tough love.

Considering that A) it was his idea to test them, B) he enjoyed tormenting others way too much to be a good guy, and C) He lied constantly, I'd say it's pretty safe to call him the antagonist, and not just a "tough love" kinda guy. Any claims he made in that regard should be taken with a galaxy-sized grain of salt.

Gillianren
2007-Jun-12, 03:42 AM
In most episodes, he was opposing Picard; that makes him an antagonist, no matter his motive as eventually revealed.

SkepticJ
2007-Jun-12, 05:26 AM
Star Trek's Q . Not really evil, but should be on the list.

I don't know. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands (millions?) of sentient beings. He, after all, "introduced" the Federation to the Borg.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-12, 06:21 AM
I don't know. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands (millions?) of sentient beings. He, after all, "introduced" the Federation to the Borg.

...At least, he did before the retcons came and changed all of history. Away, retcons, away! Get thee behind me, Braga!

novaderrik
2007-Jun-12, 06:29 AM
I don't know. He's indirectly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands (millions?) of sentient beings. He, after all, "introduced" the Federation to the Borg.
but, by blasting the Picard and crew across the galaxy and "introducing" them to the Borg, he gave the Federation a heads up and enough time to at least get somewhat prepared for what was coming. the Borg were probably going to find the alpha quadrant eventually anyways, and would have probably rolled right on thru and assimilated everyone without breaking a sweat had Q hot given the federation a heads up.
i've always seen Q as the "protector" of humanity. he was a part of a larger community that looked at humans (and Klingons and Cardassians and everyone else) as we humans look at ants scurrying around the base of an anthill, and they didn't care if we lived or died. but Q liked the little beings, and protected them from the others in his continuum. by being the "bad guy", he learned the limits of the little creatures, and helped to toughen them up so the others wouldn't just eliminate them.
yeah, i know.. the writers probably never thought about Q as more than a weird character they could fall back on when they couldn't think of anything else before the production deadline, but that's the way Q was revealed to me thru TNG and DS9- but not so much with Voyager. he was back to a "let's just get a script written so we don't get fired" thing. of course, that whole series was kind of like that, wasn't it? i still haven't seen the last few episodes of that series.

granolaeater
2007-Jun-12, 06:37 AM
Don't forget Dr. Duran Duran from Barbarella, the inventor of the Positronic Ray and the Excessive Machine.

He has even a famous Pop-Band named after him.

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-12, 08:26 PM
...At least, he did before the retcons came and changed all of history. Away, retcons, away! Get thee behind me, Braga!

It's all because of Kirk (the Temporal Terror) mucking around with the time line one too many times. Well, that's one way to internalize the retcons, anyway.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-12, 08:32 PM
Don't forget Dr. Duran Duran from Barbarella, the inventor of the Positronic Ray and the Excessive Machine.

He has even a famous Pop-Band named after him.
Pink Floyd was named after my father.

He was born (and duly christened) a good three decades before the group formed.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-12, 08:33 PM
How about Feathers McGraw?

Or Preston the Cyberdog?

Matherly
2007-Jun-12, 08:55 PM
and the ruler of Omicron Persei 8! (Futurama)

HE IS LRRR, RULER OF OMICRON PERSEI VIII!

Noclevername
2007-Jun-12, 08:57 PM
HE IS LRRR, RULER OF OMICRON PERSEI VIII!

...Is this thing on? :)

novaderrik
2007-Jun-12, 09:30 PM
HE IS LRRR, RULER OF OMICRON PERSEI VIII!
"this concept of wuv confuses and infuriates me!!!"

probably my favorite line from any episode of any tv series. ever. it just kind of comes out of nowhere...
the Planet Express crew delivers a shipment of valentines candy hearts to Omicron Persei 8 to get them to stop destroying the earth, and the ruler and his queen get confused by the misspelled phrases on the chalky candy hearts.

Lord Jubjub
2007-Jun-13, 01:09 AM
So, SkepticJ, are you going to create a set of polls from this?

I'm ready to go with mine, but I can wait for yours if you wish.

Gemini
2007-Jun-13, 03:13 AM
"this concept of wuv confuses and infuriates me!!!"

probably my favorite line from any episode of any tv series. ever. it just kind of comes out of nowhere...
the Planet Express crew delivers a shipment of valentines candy hearts to Omicron Persei 8 to get them to stop destroying the earth, and the ruler and his queen get confused by the misspelled phrases on the chalky candy hearts.

Guards! Remove the humans lower horn!

Launch window
2007-Jun-13, 04:24 AM
some of my picks


Niska in Firefly
Doctor Ock in the Spiderman movie
New government in V the tv series
Agent Smith The Matrix
Pfeiffer as Catwoman
Goldfinger in the bond movie
Any one of many antagonist roles played by Gary Oldman
Nurse in one flew over the cuckoo's
The Children of the Corn
NeverEnding Story The Nothing
Magneto from Xmen
John Carpenter's The Thing
Scorpius Farscape



I nominate Number Six from Battlestar Galactica (season 1, which is as far as I have watched so far ... will be getting season 2 boxed set soon I hope).

Don't bother buying it, I used to really like BSG but as the episodes move on the series totally 'jumps the shark', I already got season2 but apart from a few good plots like Pegasus, and the lost map to Earth I found the series to have mostly de-evolved into a depressing soap opera. Which is why I sold them off with no intention of watching that dull soap opera again.

I've kept the pilot of the new BSG (which was great) but since the pilot the series has seen a constant decline in its quality of writing and its ratings have been on a downward slide. I posted my thoughts on the series in another thread so I'll say no more on the subject as I don't want this thread to go off-topic

jja
2007-Jun-13, 04:28 AM
I nominate the five Demon Princes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_Princes) from the Jack Vance series of the same name, with an extra nod to Lens Larque and Howard Alan Treesong as being the most memorable of them all.

I also nominate the planet Solaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_%28novel%29) from Stanislaw Lem's novel of the same name. When an entire world is dredging your psyche to find the thing most likely to drive you insane and make it actual, you've got a serious problem, especially if its motives are inscrutable and possibly benign.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-13, 06:34 AM
I also nominate the planet Solaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_%28novel%29) from Stanislaw Lem's novel of the same name. When an entire world is dredging your psyche to find the thing most likely to drive you insane and make it actual, you've got a serious problem, especially if its motives are inscrutable and possibly benign.
Seconded! Much more interesting than any number of baddies who wear capes and who spend so much time gloating that their victims get the opportunity to escape.

SkepticJ
2007-Jun-13, 08:29 AM
So, SkepticJ, are you going to create a set of polls from this?

I'm ready to go with mine, but I can wait for yours if you wish.

Yeah.

Thanks, but you can go ahead if you want. There's still some good ones being listed.

SkepticJ
2007-Jun-13, 08:33 AM
but, by blasting the Picard and crew across the galaxy and "introducing" them to the Borg, he gave the Federation a heads up and enough time to at least get somewhat prepared for what was coming. the Borg were probably going to find the alpha quadrant eventually anyways, and would have probably rolled right on thru and assimilated everyone without breaking a sweat had Q hot given the federation a heads up.

Well, since Q is omnipotent, couldn't he do what happened in that episode, but fake it? Scare the living *bleep* out of them, then reveal it was all a fake, but that there really are beings like that out there, and they're coming. Or if he cares so much about humans, destroy the Borg with a wave of his hand.

Doodler
2007-Jun-13, 01:55 PM
Babylon 5 finally getting some love. Thank the Maker...

Most of my favorites have already been mentioned, but I'll line'em up.

1) Vladimir Harkonnen, particularly Ian McNeice's version.
2) Alfred Bester. Koenig escaped Star Trek and rebounded from Moontrap in one magnificent stroke. Shatner and Nimoy must be jealous. :)
3) Londo Mollari. The best villains always do it with the best of intentions.
4) Agent Smith. At least in the first movie, he was impressive. What he became in the rest was kinda bleh.
5) Grand Admiral Thrawn. Scary a man who can tell you what you're thinking based on what kind of art you're into...

3rdvogon
2007-Jun-13, 03:15 PM
In reverse order

5th. The Predator

4th. The original 1979 Alien - boy was that thing creepy 1st time around.

3rd. Serverlan - my only regret being that she could have looked a bit more fetishistic.

2nd. Agent Smith in the first Matrix outing.

1st. Prostetnik Vogon-Jeltz - any guy who can blow-up an entire planet and a few billion people, while regarding the whole exercise as being nothing more than like filing a Tax Return has just got to have it. (Remember it was the Vogons who first used the phrase "Resistence is useless (aka futile)" long before the Borg came along.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Jun-13, 03:38 PM
(Remember it was the Vogons who first used the phrase "Resistence is useless (aka futile)" long before the Borg came along.
Ah. This must be a strange usage of the word "first" of which I was previously unaware.

Matherly
2007-Jun-13, 04:32 PM
Don't bother buying it

Fah! There be no shark anywhere in the vacinity of the good ship Galactica.

Season 2 and 3 are bloody brilliant!

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-13, 05:36 PM
Well, maintaining the slightly OT feel, Season 2 turned up today, so I shall find out for myself.

Meanwhile, I have to agree with Paul. "Resistance is useless" must have been used a dozen times in Doctor Who before Adams penned HHGTTG.

On a vaguely related topic, I once bought some electronic components from Maplin, but one of the resistors they sold me had the wrong value. I had to take it back and tell them the resistance was useless... :) [ducks and runs]

Noclevername
2007-Jun-13, 05:44 PM
"Resistance is useless" must have been used a dozen times in Doctor Who before Adams penned HHGTTG.

Goes back to the Pulps. Ming the Merciless and Fu Manchu used it a few times. Hey, Fu manchu! He was a mad scientist too, right? Put 'im on the list! :)

stutefish
2007-Jun-13, 06:53 PM
From Iain Banks:

The Affront, the Idirans, and the Excession.

Doodler
2007-Jun-14, 03:35 AM
Best antagonist in a Sci Fi series:

Program managers at FOX...

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-14, 04:20 AM
Ah. This must be a strange usage of the word "first" of which I was previously unaware.

If you were Tralfamadorian or a wormhole alien, it would make perfect sense.

Regarding B5, I don't know if they've been mentioned yet, but I would nominate both the Shadows and Vorlons.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-14, 04:48 AM
Berman and Braga.

(Oh, you said in the series.)

SeanF
2007-Jun-14, 02:28 PM
Program managers at FOX...

Berman and Braga.
Best. The thread says best.

;)

mike alexander
2007-Jun-14, 11:33 PM
Roy Batty got my first Choice, Blackie DuQuesne.

Yama, against Sam, in 'Lord of Light'. I like him because he goes from antagonist to ally.

The Borshin, also from Zelazny, in 'Jack of Shadows'. Really creepy.

Stretch, the computer in Bester's 'Indian Giver'

Lincoln Powell, the esper cop who tries to nail Ben Reich in 'The Demolished Man'

And must mention Gulliver Foyle from 'The Stars My Destination', who was arguably his own antagonist.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-15, 03:50 AM
General Ripper from Dr. Strangelove. And of course, the mad Doctor himself!

Noclevername
2007-Jun-15, 05:53 AM
As long as we're covering nonhumans, how about The Blob, the Thing, the Pod People, the giant flying icicle The Doomsday Machine from Star Trek and the "happy spores" that made Spock fall in love, Godzilla, Dr. Frankenstein's poor misunderstood monster, the Triffids, and Saberhagen's Berserkers.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-15, 05:55 AM
D'oh! Double posted again.

Ilya
2007-Jun-16, 02:35 AM
Saberhagen's Berserkers.

Saberhagen gets credit for originality, but the idea has been improved on since. Benford's Mechs ("Galactic Center" series) are much more sensible, more versatile, and ultimately more dangerous Berserkers, even if (actually, because) they are not mindlessly omnicidal. Reynold's Inhibitors are also improved version of Berserkers, but they so utterly lack personality that I would not nominate them as Best Antagonists.

Gillianren
2007-Jun-16, 02:38 AM
It's why I don't think the Reavers deserve a spot. They're just not all that interesting.

Doodler
2007-Jun-17, 12:03 AM
Best. The thread says best.

;)

Sorry, I misinterpreted "most successful" for "best". :p

ggremlin
2007-Jun-18, 02:19 AM
I'm surprised no one has nominated Galactus from the Fantastic Four. The ultimate antagonist, he doesn't do something because its evil but because he wants to survive.

parallaxicality
2007-Jun-20, 06:39 PM
Guards! Remove the humans lower horn!

"That hippy's starting to kick in!"

Doodler
2007-Jun-20, 10:18 PM
If you were Tralfamadorian or a wormhole alien, it would make perfect sense.

Regarding B5, I don't know if they've been mentioned yet, but I would nominate both the Shadows and Vorlons.

I'd be hard pressed to consider Kosh an antagonist. Ulkesh was a pain, but the Vorlons were definitely more constructive manipulators than they were destructive. That last bit with them annihilating whole worlds because of the Shadows' presence was certainly over the top, but still not entirely villainous. Shooting off a cannon to kill a fly. I think part of the reason things were finally forced to a head was because their very nature as First Ones made them entirely too dangerous to remain around the younger races. In their eyes, their actions were attempts to preserve what life they felt they could save from the Shadows' influence. They had an agenda, but if that's enough to call them antagonists, then there weren't many protagonists in the series.

As for them not taking it directly to the Shadows, Kosh's death kinda shed some light there. Despite their relative strength, the Vorlons weren't exactly confident the Shadows could be beaten. They were scared.

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-22, 01:47 PM
... I think part of the reason things were finally forced to a head was because their very nature as First Ones made them entirely too dangerous to remain around the younger races...

I thought the Vorlons and Shadows were the ones who came after the First Ones, in the same way that the humans and Mimbari came after the Vorlons and the Shadows. Weren't there only about 12 First Ones left when Sheridan recruited them for the Shadow War?

Matherly
2007-Jun-22, 02:23 PM
I thought the Vorlons and Shadows were the ones who came after the First Ones, in the same way that the humans and Mimbari came after the Vorlons and the Shadows. Weren't there only about 12 First Ones left when Sheridan recruited them for the Shadow War?

No. The Shadows and the Vorlons were both of the "First One" generation. They were the only ones to stay in the galaxy as a race. The other "First One" races went beyond the Rim, with only isolated members of those races remaining. The point of gathering those 12 or so was that it was time for all of the First Ones to leave the galaxy to the next generation of races.

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-22, 02:54 PM
Oh, I see.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-22, 08:33 PM
Lorien claimed to be the first First One, followed by the Shadows, then the Vorlons soon after. IIRC.

Matherly
2007-Jun-22, 09:46 PM
Lorien claimed to be the first First One, followed by the Shadows, then the Vorlons soon after. IIRC.

Right. And he was the first of his race that "raised" the First Ones.

ASEI
2007-Jun-23, 12:00 AM
The Pak Protectors (were they Niven's? I forgot). They were aliens that are super-intelligent, but whose intelligence is fundmentally driven by a few basic instincts. One of which was to protect and establish the supremacy of their particular family of breeders (a prior stage of development where the species is unintelligent but can reproduce), which produced some rather spectacular and endless wars between them. Another, due to the fact that they evolved near a high-radiation star, was to ruthlessly weed out mutants from among their breeder populations.

In Nivens? book Protector, humans turn out to be a highly mutated lost colony of breeders, the original unintelligent stock deposited on earth by protectors who subsequently died, which sets up the plot for the conflict between them.

Dr Nigel
2007-Jun-23, 07:48 PM
Yes, that was Niven.

Noclevername
2007-Jun-23, 08:27 PM
Yup. Niven says in N-Space that what he wanted to do with the Protectors was A) to show that high intelligence does not necessarily lead to high morals, and B) to turn the "negatives" of old age (wrinkled skin, swollen joints, tooth loss, weak heart, lower sex drive) into biological positives.

The Backroad Astronomer
2007-Jun-27, 05:07 AM
Kai Winn and Dukat from DS9 (wished someone throw them out airlock).