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Sever
2003-Jun-16, 07:56 PM
Err I hate to be the underuducated one here but whats up with ST:enterprise? It can't be that bad can it? I mean I am kind of a fan of ST (but not a trekkie) :)

Stuart
2003-Jun-16, 08:13 PM
It can't be that bad can it?
It has its virtues. For example, it makes Star Trek Voyager look good in comparison. Jolene Blalock makes Jerry Ryan seem like a skilled actress. Porthos out-acts the entire human cast.

Glom
2003-Jun-16, 08:19 PM
Are you saying that you think it's bad and are at a loss to explain why or that you've been reading these threads and are curious as to why we find it so bad?

If it's the first, (rubbing hands together) well....

Plot

The concept of the ship to be the first to explore new worlds and seeking out crap is good. However, it has been executed badly. The Creators' idea of exploration constitutes roaming around aimlessly until they stumble across some trouble. There appears to be no specific mission. They just gave Archer a ship a told him to do what he likes with it. We do know quite a bit about what lies within a hundred or so light years of Earth, so it was possible for the Creators to plot a mission profile through those things, doing the exploring thang. It would be a mission, with set objectives, and along the way, they would get into trouble.

The idea of pioneering new technology is also good. However, we get the usual brand of invincible ship that is sparkling with a new coat of paint at the beginning of each episode. They did that all the time on Voyager and it sucked as a result.

The series is composed of mostly alien-of-the-week episodes, featuring the usual ugly gruff-voiced brutes in tight leather outfits, made to look even uglier by having a Michael Westmore patty stuck on their foreheads. Supposedly, the whole temporal cold war sub plot has been worked out from the beginning but it only features about once or twice a season.

They seem incapable of looking after continuity, not just within series, but setting it in the Star Trek Universe as well. They have already turned the Pon Farr from a deeply awkward, secretive, personal issue into dinner time conversation. They have ignored the facts about the Ferengi, the Borg, the Romulans, the Tribbles and the Regulan Blood Worms.

Characters

Archer: Scott Bakula was Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap. It is because of this that we are at a loss to explain why he is so bad here. Primarily is his ongoing offense to pig life (hamming it up). Archer is also written as an overgrown teenager with no maturity, responsability or humility. The phrase 'We're making history with every light year' is used so often they even recognise it on the series itself. It shows how Archer is not interested in exploration, in science, in developing new technology to further our development, he just wants to be first so he can be seen to be first. That's all that matters to him.

Writing

The problem is that any episode comes off instantly as dull and boring, even when you think the episode should be enjoyable. Most episodes end with a reset button, which makes everything out to be alright and Archer to be the hero, even when it is blatantly apparent that he's inept.

For a more scathing, but interesting and funny review, episode by episode, see this site (http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/index.php3).

Glom
2003-Jun-16, 08:22 PM
Jolene Blalock makes Jerry Ryan seem like a skilled actress.

I thought Jeri Ryan was pretty good, when the episode was well written. ('The Gift', 'One', 'Drone', 'Infinite Regress', 'Body and Soul')

MightyMoo
2003-Jun-16, 10:58 PM
I have to second Glom on this one. Jeri Ryan made Seven a bearable character. Despite Seven of Nine being put in as eye candy, Ryan gave a somewhat one dimensional character more depth. (Of course, it didn't hurt that one of the producers saw to it that Seven got more than ample opportunity to grow.) But I also freely admit to having actually enjoyed Voyager so maybe my opinion is colored. Enterprise on the other hand seems to be everything that was wrong with Voyager, magnified.

(In my defense, as of late - and after much reading - I am less amorous towards Voyager because of the gaffes committed by the writers and producers.)

tracer
2003-Jun-17, 02:02 AM
Enterprise on the other hand seems to be everything that was wrong with Voyager, magnified.
Although, at least on Enterprise, they don't solve their problems every week with technobabble.

Stuart
2003-Jun-17, 12:42 PM
I thought Jeri Ryan was pretty good, when the episode was well written. ('The Gift', 'One', 'Drone', 'Infinite Regress', 'Body and Soul')
That's the point; Jolene Blalock can't act even given a well-written Enterprise episode.

captain swoop
2003-Jun-17, 01:03 PM
.


snip


For a more scathing, but interesting and funny review, episode by episode, see this site (http://www.firsttvdrama.com/enterprise/index.php3).

good sight

man on the moon
2003-Jul-07, 04:47 AM
i'm going to go out on a limb here and say give enterprise another season before you throw the whole thing away. i recently went back and started watching voyager again...while season one was vital to putting them in the delta quadrant and bringing the two crews to peace with each other, the acting and the writing were definitely not at their best. season two was better, but it wasn't until season four (maybe the end of three) that it really came into its own.

in that light i say give enterprise time to grow, and let the writers/producers look over these type of forums to see what people want. patience may just pay off someday :wink: .

of course, those who complain about the various past series...i'm not going to change your mind. i s'pose this is more for those who did and are impatient with enterprise.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-07, 05:34 AM
i'm going to go out on a limb here and say give enterprise another season before you throw the whole thing away. i recently went back and started watching voyager again...while season one was vital to putting them in the delta quadrant and bringing the two crews to peace with each other, the acting and the writing were definitely not at their best. season two was better, but it wasn't until season four (maybe the end of three) that it really came into its own.

in that light i say give enterprise time to grow, and let the writers/producers look over these type of forums to see what people want. patience may just pay off someday :wink: .

of course, those who complain about the various past series...i'm not going to change your mind. i s'pose this is more for those who did and are impatient with enterprise.


The problem is it is the same people over and over again writing the scripts. They are getting tired and just reusing the same cliche stuff with added sex and graphics. The show can easily become much better if they just get new writers for a bit. Just to try out.

Personally i liie a good amount of Voyager. The last few seasons i truthfully liied. (Yes i said it, what are you going to do about it? :-) ). DS9 was the exact opposite. I loved it from the begining and then it got really bad really fast once it got all religious.

It all depends on the writers. It seems that B&B are listening to the fans and actually doing something with the show other than just rampling about the quadrant doing nuthing really.

One of the gripes we have is that there is no real plot for the series. TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager all had a overall plot. Can you even hint at what Enterprise's is?

ok i will step off of my shoebox for now. :-)

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Jul-07, 05:39 AM
Here's the plot:

Hey Captain! Yeah you! We've got a top of the line hotrod of a ship here! Enjoy! Bye-bye!

:roll:

Glom
2003-Jul-07, 10:46 AM
Here's the plot:

Hey Captain! Yeah you! We've got a top of the line hotrod of a ship here! Enjoy! Bye-bye!

:roll:

That's what I've been saying.

Jason Thompson
2003-Jul-07, 11:19 AM
>>However, we get the usual brand of
invincible ship that is sparkling with a new coat of paint at the beginning of each episode.
They did that all the time on Voyager and it sucked as a result.<<

That's what really bugged me about Voyager. I mean, this ship is supposed to be thousands of light years away from any Federation outposts. It spent seven years trying to get home, encountering hostile races, dangerous anomalies, and the ever more impotent Borg, and yet despite all that, it returns to Earth looking exactly the same as when it left. Surely it should have been a bit more battered, or at least bear evidence of modification.

In the episode Scorpion, Voyager gains some Borg technology that makes it quite a formidable weapon. Yet, two episodes later, the modifications are gone. Why take them off? I think the battered Voyager seen in Year of Hell should have been what Voyager looked like by the time it got home.

And why are the witers so obsessed with Time travel? The timeline in Voyager has been messed around with so much I'm surprised all of history hasn't fallen apart!

And now Enterprise has found a TARDIS as well, although they called it a Suliban time ship. Still, everyone who's ever seen Doctor Who recognised it as a TARDIS.

Glom
2003-Jul-07, 01:50 PM
In 'The Cloud' [VOY], Janeway demonstrated a reluctance to use photon torpedoes because of their limited supply. After that, there was no more concern of limitation.

In 'Ex Post Facto' [VOY], Janeway threatened to go all terrorist when aliens captured one of their shuttlecraft. Afterwards, they sacrifice them without concern and even find the resources to build a mecha-shuttle.

In 'Elogium' [VOY], Harry Kim mentions how he used his replicator rations on his new clarinet rather than on food. Later in the series, no-one seems to care about using the replicators.

The one thing that excited me about Voyager was the journey to get home. But within a few episodes, they got completely bored the problems of conserving supplies and dealing with damage and instead decided to focus on temporal anomalies. It would have been nice continuity to have permanent damage that they would have to deal with and adapt to.

Jason Thompson
2003-Jul-07, 02:33 PM
Absolutely, Glom, couldn't agree more.

In Year of Hell, they have an encounter with one hostile space empire, and Voyager is completely destroyed before the Big Red Reset Button (TM) is pressed at the end and that timeline is erased.

For the rest of the series, whatever damage and problems they face in one episode are forgotten about in the next! In an environment where you cannot limp back to a starbase for repair after an unexpected violent encounter, Voyager should have been in quite a sorry state by the end of the series, especially after repeatedly running into the Borg (Incidentally, does anyone else wonder how the Borg are repeatedly unable to deal with one small Federation ship when, in TNG, one cube was capable of decimating Starfleet?!). Instead, the only thing it lost was crewmembers!

Star Trek is being compared in some circles now to Doctor Who during the 80s, in that the fact that the same people have been in charge of it for too long is starting to show on screen and make the programme stale and uninteresting. Change the production crew and get some new writers and it just might pick up.

AstroSmurf
2003-Jul-07, 02:44 PM
The trouble is not in the concept for the series; both Voyager and Enterprise had very interesting premises, but the whole point of those were lost through mismanagement. There are a zillion stories possible from the get-go, but both series seem to want to be TNG-with-a-new-cast. It beats me - is it so much work to truly start anew, or is it just the usual fear of losing viewers :o :roll: at work?

The Shade
2003-Jul-07, 04:12 PM
and the ever more impotent Borg,

Impotent??? :lol: I think you meant omnipotent. But, I see what you mean. They were used too often, to the point where they just didn't seem that scary anymore. And don't even mention the Enterprise episode where they encountered the Borg. From a technological and continuity standpoint, that episode made no sense whatsoever.

Glom
2003-Jul-07, 04:20 PM
I agree entirely, Astrosmurf.

Both Enterprise and Voyager had great premises.

Voyager could have been a great epic about this small mismatched crew on a small ship having to struggle with limited resources to get home while their ship slowly erodes away.

By the end of the series, we want to see the ship held together with duct tape. Instead, what was at first a small scout vessel, becomes a rival to a Galaxy class starship. The ship is supposed to be weakened, not become stronger.

Enterprise is all about pioneering space exploration. With technology that proves to be imperfect because it's new, they have to be innovative to be able to accomplish the mission objectives. Failiure to do so would be an advantage to political opponents of the program and may risk Archer's life work and that of his father being cancelled.

Instead, Archer is too busy being concerned with how his portrait in the history books will look rather than the success of the program for its own sake. In fact, there doesn't seem to be any program. Enterprise's mission appears to consist of being on a mission. There are no objectives, nothing planned to be gained. It roams around aimlessly.

Jason Thompson
2003-Jul-07, 04:33 PM
No, Shade, I definitely meant impotent. Each time Voyager encounters tham they seem less and less capable or threatening. In The Best of Both Worlds, one Borg cube decimates the fleet, destroying 39 ships outright and severely damaging the Enterprise before being stopped at the eleventh hour.

In Voyager, Scorpion was their last great appearance, as they were forced into an alliance that remained unsteady throughout the two episodes. After that, they just got less and less effective, until Janeway could go into the heart of Borg space in the bloody Delta Flyer and emerge unscathed from a pursuit inside a transwarp conduit lasting two minutes with continuous fire from a Borg vessel, or enter a nebula containing 47 cubes in the finale without so much as a scratch, even with that ludicrous armour and 'transphasic torpedoes.'

And in Unimatrix zero, it suddenly turns out that there's a really easy way to avoid complete assimilation, and that the implants can be removed quite easily as soon as they return to Voyager (which seems completely unscathed by its attack on a tactical cube)!

As a matter of fact, I thought the Enterprise episode with the Borg in it worked very well, even though I was dismayed that they should bring the Borg into the series at all. Each now series brings a chance to do something new, especially in the case of Voyager and Enterprise. Instead we have Voyager repeatedly running into the Borg, and Klingons and Romulans all over Enterprise.

Stuart
2003-Jul-07, 05:10 PM
No, Shade, I definitely meant impotent. Each time Voyager encounters tham they seem less and less capable or threatening...... In Voyager, Scorpion was their last great appearance, as they were forced into an alliance that remained unsteady throughout the two episodes. After that, they just got less and less effective. '

It could be argued that the Borg got a terrible seeing-to at the hands of Species 8472 and that kicked the props out from their society.


VOY Season 3, Ep# 68: "Scorpion Part I"
TORRES: We've analyzed the Borg's tactical database. They refer to these new aliens as Species 8472.
TUVOK: Over the past 5 months, the Borg have been attacked by them on at least a dozen occasions. Each time, they were defeated ... swiftly.


VOY Season 3, Ep# 69: "Scorpion Part II"
BORG V.O.: Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix 010, Grid 19. 8 planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. Four million six hundred twenty one Borg eliminated.

Assuming each of the 12 or so attacks had a similar effect, this implies that the Borg have lost almost 100 planets, 3,744 cubes and 55.5 million drones. Its also stated that the Borg are within weeks of total defeat. Now, the rate of 8472 attacks appears to be about one every ten days., implying another six or seven attacks will do for them completely. That means the 100 planets etc must represent at least half their total resources. That, in turn suggests, they were so smashed up by the 8472 attacks that their society could not recover and was headed down the plughole anyway,

darkhunter
2003-Jul-07, 05:16 PM
So is Species 8472 going to eventually be "the threat" to the Federation for the next star trek series?

nebularain
2003-Jul-07, 05:27 PM
:o Next Star Trek series?

I don't know whether to run and scream or just simply throw-up!

Stuart
2003-Jul-07, 05:29 PM
So is Species 8472 going to eventually be "the threat" to the Federation for the next star trek series?

Hopefully there won't be another one. With a little luck "Enterprise" will be axed either half way through the coming series or, at worst, at its end and the whole franchise will be put to bed. Its outlived its time and is just the same old tired ideas rehashed over and over again. It's in urgent need of the services of Dr Kevorkian.

Perhaps we could have one last episode in which Jerry Ryan wakes up in modern-day Dallas, Tx and goes to the bathroom to find Scott Bakula having a shower. Gee, it was all just a dream......

Jason Thompson
2003-Jul-07, 05:34 PM
Stuart:

The whole point of the Borg collective is that they recover quickly. In Q Who? the Enterprise successfully damages 25% of the Borg cube. Hours later, the cube is fully functional. In The Best of Both Worlds, Shelby describes projections that suggest a Borg cube could continue to function effectively even if 78% of it was inoperable.

Now, in Voyager, Unimatrix One, the hub of the collective, is seen to have escaped largely undamaged by 8472's attack. Also, any Borg vessel not attacked should still be 100% operational, as for that matter should any cube not actually destroyed, given the rate of repair we know the Borg to be capable of. They have no trouble whatsoever in assimilating an entire race in hours in Dark Frontier.

In any case, Voyager should not be a match for a Borg Cube. In the teaser sequence for Dark Frontier, Janeway describes Voyager as being able to match the firepower of a small Borg scout vessel. A cube is vast, yet Voyager can escape unscathed from multiple encounters with several cubes.

Imagine you are a single scout ship at sea, in a war. Your enemy is on the verge of defeat. If you ran into a destroyer, you would still have reason to be afraid, because that destroyer should still be able to pick off a scoutship without even breaking a sweat. If you encounter a fleet of them intent on destroying you, you will not emerge alive. Whatever state the enemy is in overall, the crew of that ship will still know how to destroy you.

Voyager's repeated encounters with Borg vessels are rather like that, in that there is no way she should survive unscathed apart from some minor damage which can easily be repaired before the next encounter, because the cube still vastly outclasses her in power and size.

The other thing that bugged me about the Borg encounter in Endgame was the total lack of reference to the Borg civil war started in Unimatrix Zero. This was such a major development at the start of the final season that the fact that it went unremarked later is rather unforgivable.

Stuart
2003-Jul-07, 06:02 PM
The whole point of the Borg collective is that they recover quickly. In Q Who? the Enterprise successfully damages 25% of the Borg cube. Hours later, the cube is fully functional. In The Best of Both Worlds, Shelby describes projections that suggest a Borg cube could continue to function effectively even if 78% of it was inoperable.

Lets have a look at this.

NG Season 2, Ep# 42: "Q Who?"
PICARD: With whatever force you need, terminate that beam ... fire!
(The E-D blows a hole in the cube)
DATA: The tractor beam has released.
RIKER: Damage report.
WORF: Sections twenty-seven, twenty-eight and twenty-nine on Decks four, five and six destroyed.
PICARD: Casualties?
WORF: Eighteen were in those sections and are missing.
RIKER: They couldn't have survived it.
DATA: A force field is maintaining hull integrity.
PICARD: What is the condition of their ship?
WORF: They have sustained damage to twenty percent of their vessel. Life support minimal.
Note that important comment at the end. The Borg cube is not 20 percent destroyed; 20 percent of the cube has been damaged. Big, big difference. No sign of how widespread that damage is; it could be superficial. Probably is; StarFleet weapons are puny compared with modern (ie 2003-vintage) firepower. Starfleet projections are likely to be wrong - they don't realize how feeble their weaponry is (if they did, their ships would carry 16 inch L50 naval rifles, not phasers) so they grotesquely overestimate the damage they do


Now, in Voyager, Unimatrix One, the hub of the collective, is seen to have escaped largely undamaged by 8472's attack. Also, any Borg vessel not attacked should still be 100% operational, as for that matter should any cube not actually destroyed, given the rate of repair we know the Borg to be capable of.
Actually we don't know that since the basis is an unknown amount of damage to start with.


They have no trouble whatsoever in assimilating an entire race in hours in Dark Frontier.
Again, not quite - they absorb the survivors of an entire race. Again, big difference. Obviously most of the race in question had been wiped out because they were totally incapable fo fighting (May heaven have mercy on the Borg if they landed on Earth today - 3ID or the Marines would wipe the floor with them).


In any case, Voyager should not be a match for a Borg Cube. In the teaser sequence for Dark Frontier, Janeway describes Voyager as being able to match the firepower of a small Borg scout vessel. A cube is vast, yet Voyager can escape unscathed from multiple encounters with several cubes.
Borg gunnery is appalling, its even worse than Starfleets (and that's saying something). Escaping from their wild random firing shouldn't be too hard.


Imagine you are a single scout ship at sea, in a war. Your enemy is on the verge of defeat. If you ran into a destroyer, you would still have reason to be afraid, because that destroyer should still be able to pick off a scoutship without even breaking a sweat. If you encounter a fleet of them intent on destroying you, you will not emerge alive. Whatever state the enemy is in overall, the crew of that ship will still know how to destroy you.

Battle off Samar, October 1944. Three US destroyers took on the entire Japanese Navy (slight exageration but not much) and held them off for over an hour. (Pause for tribute to Hoel, Heerman and Johnston) while the carriers they were protecting got clear. The three destroyers couldn't evade because they had to stand and fight while the ships they were protecting made their escape. Nevertheless, they survived for a startling period of time. These things are never predictable.


The other thing that bugged me about the Borg encounter in Endgame was the total lack of reference to the Borg civil war started in Unimatrix Zero. This was such a major development at the start of the final season that the fact that it went unremarked later is rather unforgivable.

This is a fair point; however, I would point out that civil war and other effects are signs of the Borg empire being in terminal decline. The explanation that makes sense is that the war with 8472 did so much damage to them that their highly-centralized society can't take the strain.

nebularain
2003-Jul-07, 08:18 PM
Let's see what we have:

TOS: "To seek out new life and new civilizations . . . . "
Yup! They did a good job at that. They were visiting new planets almost every episode.

**
TNG: At the end of the first episode, they were to venture into unexplored territory. Umm...did this happen? I can count the number of planets they actually visited on two, maybe even only one, hand. The number of new civilizations or life they actually encountered can be definantly counted on one. How come they were always involved in final negotiations with previously encountered worlds when their mission was to be exploring new territory?

**
DS9: The refuge for outcast aliens.

(BTW, Why wasn't the Enterprise, the flag ship of the fleet, in the final battle, anyway?)

**
Voyager: "I am woman, hear me roar!"

**
Enterprise: Boys and their toys.

Glom
2003-Jul-07, 09:47 PM
As Astrosmurf said, Voyager and Enterprise, while having more specific premises, are essentially NextGen with a different crew.

NextGen was, by all admissions, a rehash of Classic. That was fine because it was twenty years later. New era, new everything, fine.

Since then, Star Trek has been airing non stop. Rehashes of Classic and NextGen are not acceptable. The follow-on series must be distinctive. Complain all you want about Deep Space Nine, but it was most certainly distinctive.

Voyager had the distinctive premise and naused it up.

Enterprise was, by all admissions, a return to the premise of Classic and NextGen in that it was supposed to deal with pioneering exploration. But in saying that, it gave the series a distinctive premise in that it was tasked with the exploration game specifically. Classic and NextGen were far more open ended, devoid of any actual premise beyond that of a slogan. Enterprise was supposed to turn that vague fanfare into something specific and therefore something distinctive.

tracer
2003-Jul-07, 10:11 PM
Voyager had the distinctive premise and naused it up.
Considering that its distinctive premise was "Gilligan's Island in space", I'm not surprised it got naused up.

Glom
2003-Jul-07, 10:16 PM
Considering that its distinctive premise was "Gilligan's Island in space", I'm not surprised it got naused up.

Voyager could have been more along the lines of Apollo 13 had the writers been able to carry it through, but instead, it was indeed more like Gilligan's Island, which may work in a sitcom, but in the case of Voyager we had hoped for something more.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-07, 11:17 PM
The question is: Will the next series (if there will be a next series) be better without B&B? Will paramount allow a change in pace/style/acting/characters?

I dopn't think so. I think that they are afraid to change the polt to much for fear of a horrible series.

Persoanlly i would not mind another DS9 without the religious part of the last few seasons. I liked that show alot in the begining.

I don't think the federation is the way to go. Maybe a series about the maquis (sp?). Or a series mainly taking the point of another race. The federation is getting to tired and rigid in its ways. Imagine the plot points available if the show centered on the rebellion. You cna even set it in the past and go throught the history of the rebellion. Then you can have famous cameos from most of the series since they all had some part in the rebellion.


-------------------------

I agree with what you say about voyager and how they just threww all the rules away near the end for ratrings. They at the begining had a very limited supply of torpedoes left, yet in the last season it seemed like they would use it to start a campfire. It is like the professor on Giligans island talking about how they have to conserve batteries on a t.v. and then keeping it on 24 hours a day.

The same thing that happened to the Borg happened tto the Klingons and the Romulans in TOS and TNG respectifully. In both series they were races to be feared, but as we got more familiar with them they got weaker and weaker.


The Romulan warbird (really big one) is supposed to easily outpower a galaxy class, yet they seem to fear the Enterprise almost all the time.

With a membership of hundreds if not thousands of planets of equal or greater technology to humans, why dosn't the Federation build thousands of ships? They only have a few dozen it seems that have any use at all. And usually only send one ship at a time into battle.

Glom
2003-Jul-08, 12:02 AM
I wouldn't mind a series about the Klingons. Specifically, the DS9 Klingons. They had the most character in that series.

Schultze
2003-Jul-08, 12:31 AM
I've only caught part of an episode of Enterprise and one episode in it's entirety.

The Captain needs to be keel-hauled and replaced and Starfleet mission planners need to get it together.

In other words, ax the actor and find some new writers.

This series could be saved and could be a winner if they got it right.

man on the moon
2003-Jul-08, 05:50 AM
i have to agree on voyager not following the "lose parts for good" rule as being non-sensical, but i still enjoyed the show very much.
for enterprise though, i have to defend the story about the rehash...isn't the whole point in the end to have built up to what TOS was? in order to get there, it would make sense to follow a similar path, meet similar people...just a thought. it would be nice to see the stories built up and fleshed out a bit though. they seem to flit from one to the other like a nervous bird. i'm not going to say enterprise is perfect, not by a long shot, but i'll give them credit for what they have done, and hope for a wee bit more of a story next season.
i suppose though, that they could make the enterprise friends with someone (cardassia or romulans) and later turn them to bitter enemies. that would make things interesting. sort of a romulus and remus type story. (he he--romulus...romulans :lol: ) i would say the klingons too, but then they'd have to kiss and make up, and remaking all those series where they didn't do that would be tough!

captain swoop
2003-Jul-08, 09:10 AM
snip

Battle off Samar, October 1944. Three US destroyers took on the entire Japanese Navy (slight exageration but not much) and held them off for over an hour. (Pause for tribute to Hoel, Heerman and Johnston) while the carriers they were protecting got clear. The three destroyers couldn't evade because they had to stand and fight while the ships they were protecting made their escape. Nevertheless, they survived for a startling period of time. These things are never predictable.




Not a fair comparison, Destroyers are not scout ships, a fleet Destroyers primary task was torpedo attack on an enemy fleet.

To this end destroyers were the biggest threat to a capital ship up until replaced by carrier airpower.

Very few commanders would risk taking capital ships through a Destroyer screen, three destroyers handled competantly would be a big worry for a commander.

Examples I can think of from a US viewpoint would be Cape Esperance, Leyte Gulf or for one where the Japanese won try Tassafaronga

http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/LEYTE_GULF_SURIGAO_STRAIT_.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/fm/odyssey/Guadalcanal.htm#d

A single Destroyer against an alert capital ship would result in the fate of HMS Gowworm when it took on the Hipper off Norway.

http://www.hmsglowworm.org.uk/

Stuart
2003-Jul-08, 01:33 PM
I don't think the federation is the way to go. Maybe a series about the maquis (sp?). Or a series mainly taking the point of another race. The federation is getting to tired and rigid in its ways. Imagine the plot points available if the show centered on the rebellion.
If they've got to do another series, one based around the collapse of the Federation and its replacement by a civilized form of government would be a convincing story arc (the first series showing the decline fo the Federation and growing discontent at its dictatorial and marxist policies, second the outbreak of resistance, third, fourth and fifth the civil war itself and the last clearing up the mess afterwards, the formation of a new government and the disestablishment of Starfleet and its replacement by an ethically-based and competent military


The same thing that happened to the Borg happened tto the Klingons and the Romulans in TOS and TNG respectifully. In both series they were races to be feared, but as we got more familiar with them they got weaker and weaker.
To some extent thats inevitable (and actually quite correct). Whenever a new threat appears, its always hopelessly over-rated until more information becomes available. In another part of this thread there's discussion about the Borg and their alleged power. I use the word alleged advisedly because actually they are not much of a threat to any competent military. For example:


TNG Season 4, Ep# 75: "Best of Both Worlds Part 2"
WESLEY: Borg tractor beam attempting to lock on, Captain...
RIKER: Evasive manuevers... pattern Riker Alpha...
The Enterprise then slowly drifts to port, and the Borg tractor beam misses the ship entirely from less than 10 km range. Oh great -- The Borg can't be counted on to hit a 600 metre long starship wallowing around at close range. As for Riker's "orders" - who IS this jerk? Gassing away and trying to put his name in the nextbooks when all thats needed is "Break Left!"

Reverting to the Borg, their tactical repertoire appears restricted to lumbering towards an enemy chanting "Resistance is Futile." Perhaps they should try "Mai Mulele" instead. The reference is to the Simbas in the Congo who believe that they can become invulnerable to bullets by drinking a small vial of their leader's urine and chanting "Mai Mulele" while walking towards the enemy positions without running or taking cover. The European machine gunners on the other side thought this is a truly splendid idea. However it does work against other tribespeople who also believe the spell works. They run away without bothering to shoot. A good parallel to Borg/Federation relations. The Borg rely on legend for their effectiveness - real infantry would cut them to shreds.


With a membership of hundreds if not thousands of planets of equal or greater technology to humans, why dosn't the Federation build thousands of ships? They only have a few dozen it seems that have any use at all. And usually only send one ship at a time into battle.

Which actually tells us the Federation is nowhere near as powerful as it would have us believe. In fact, none of the "powers" in the ST universe may be. Take a look at this quote.


TNG Season 7, Ep# 157: "Gambit Part 2"
RIKER: What's going to happen to the mercenaries?
PICARD: They have been detained by the Vulcan authorities, for the moment. But they're also facing charges from the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, and about seven other worlds. We won't be hearing from them for quite some time.

The superpowers mentioned here are referred to as "worlds", which suggests that most of their power is concentrated around a single homeworld. There is supporting evidence from that in other episodes where it apepars that the Romulans and Klingons are heavily concentrated onto single worlds with the rest of their "Empire" being very thinly spread.
This is certainly the case in the Federation, which puts all its proverbial eggs in the basket that is our solar system, and it appears to be the case for the others as well. Also note that in DS9, the allied forces were worried about letting the Dominion regroup at Cardassia Prime at the end of the Dominion War, which meant that they were actually afraid of an empire that was reduced to a single planet. Again, this tends to define their own scope and suggest that all the "powers" here are actually quite small.

Starfleet itself is quite tiny - its much-vaunted strength of thousands is achieved by including everything that can fly including unarmed shuttles and runabouts. Caculated on a similar basis, the US Navy has a "strength" exceeding 10,000 "ships".

Looked at in this light, the weakness of the Borg is actually quite anticipatable. Its a mixture of growing familiarity and awareness of the pathetic combat capability of Starfleet exagerating what little capability they have.

Stuart
2003-Jul-08, 01:47 PM
Not a fair comparison, Destroyers are not scout ships, a fleet Destroyers primary task was torpedo attack on an enemy fleet.
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make this clear. The point is just that small, agile ships like destroyers can survive for a surprising time against very high odds given determination and skill. Its by no means certain that three destroyers facing three battleships, five cruisers and a dozen plus destroyers would get sunk immediately. As I ended by saying; these things are not easily predictable .

captain swoop
2003-Jul-08, 02:18 PM
Stuart, there is a simple solution.

If you hate Star Trek so much, don't watch it and then it won't upset you.

I avoided Voyager, DS9 and I avoid Enterprise. I hated Babylon 5.

Give me Blakes 7 any day.

I like TOS and NG because I like the characters and situations.

If Enterprise and the Borg used super powerful weapons and sophisticated guidance and fire control they would destroy each other from long range with their first shot. Where's the dramatic tension? Flash, Bang, Goodnight. Now for some light music until the next show starts as we seem to have 40 minutes to fill.

Same for infantry.

Stuart
2003-Jul-08, 03:26 PM
Stuart, there is a simple solution. If you hate Star Trek so much, don't watch it and then it won't upset you. I avoided Voyager, DS9 and I avoid Enterprise. I hated Babylon 5.
I don't hate Startrek; I have an awed fascination with just how bad it can get. Its like watching an inevitable train-wreck. I also have total contempt for the people who write the scripts; they are unprofessional.


Give me Blakes 7 any day.
Given it was done on about a tenth of the budget, it was a remarkable achievement. It holds up even today.


I like TOS and NG because I like the characters and situations.
I've always said I liked TOS; for its time it, also, was remarkable. TNG I have less patience with since its already showing signs of distinct decline. DS9 had potential to outshine both but got carried away with pseudoreligious mysticism (that also infected STV) . Enterprise is a Yech. I have virtually given up on that one.


If Enterprise and the Borg used super powerful weapons and sophisticated guidance and fire control they would destroy each other from long range with their first shot. Where's the dramatic tension? Flash, Bang, Goodnight. Now for some light music until the next show starts as we seem to have 40 minutes to fill.
Here I disagree completely. The moment the various forces in the ST Universe use realistic weaponry instead of the feeble systems and poor sensors they have at the moment, dramatic tension goes up not down. We have cat-and-mouse games, genuine strategy and operational concepts, not the present nonsense. Going back to WW2 again, the conflict between destroyer and submarines is a good parallel. In fact, one of the classic TOS episodes recreates just that. At the moment there is no dramatic tension in the Startrek firefights because the incompetence of the crews and their pathetic weaponry (way below standards of today) is too funny. Look at it this way, a 16 inch naval rifle built sixty years ago has an order of magnitude more hitting power and three times the effective range of a phaser.


Same for infantry.
I agree, but not, I suspect, the way you mean it. Having competent infantry equipped to fight realistically would add to daramtic tension, not subtract from it. Taking "Siege of AR-558" as an example; the dramatic possibilities of having realistically-portrayed infantry doing the fighting instead of hippies mincing around in their pajamas would give some real dramatic options. As it is, the whole episode is too ridiculous to take seriously.

Using properly thought-out equipment and technology would add to the story-telling potential of the series, not subtract from it. Having the crews and personnel having to cope with situations instead of technobabbling their way out of them would go a long way towards solving what is wrong with the shows.

Glom
2003-Jul-08, 03:55 PM
Stuart, have you seen 'Starship Down' [DS9]?

captain swoop
2003-Jul-08, 04:02 PM
snip




I agree, but not, I suspect, the way you mean it. Having competent infantry equipped to fight realistically would add to daramtic tension, not subtract from it. Taking "Siege of AR-558" as an example; the dramatic possibilities of having realistically-portrayed infantry doing the fighting instead of hippies mincing around in their pajamas would give some real dramatic options. As it is, the whole episode is too ridiculous to take seriously.

Using properly thought-out equipment and technology would add to the story-telling potential of the series, not subtract from it. Having the crews and personnel having to cope with situations instead of technobabbling their way out of them would go a long way towards solving what is wrong with the shows.


these two paragraphs sum up why I like SG1


And as for Blakes 7 and the Doc, ropey special effects don't detract because the characters, script and plots are so good.

They even kill off main characters.

Glom
2003-Jul-08, 04:10 PM
these two paragraphs sum up why I like SG1

As do we all.

The Shade
2003-Jul-08, 04:10 PM
No, Shade, I definitely meant impotent. Each time Voyager encounters tham they seem less and less capable or threatening. In The Best of Both Worlds, one Borg cube decimates the fleet, destroying 39 ships outright and severely damaging the Enterprise before being stopped at the eleventh hour.

As a matter of fact, I thought the Enterprise episode with the Borg in it worked very well, even though I was dismayed that they should bring the Borg into the series at all.

:o I stand corrected.

About the Enterprise Borg episode, I wish I could remember the fansite I read where the author completely trashed the episode from a continuity point of view. Basically, the Enterprise crew, with 22th century technology are able to fight off Borg with 24th century technology, yet 24th century technology in incapable of fighting off Borg with 24th century technology. :-?

Glom
2003-Jul-08, 04:12 PM
When you find it, please tell us. I love a good trashin'. :wink:

ToSeek
2003-Jul-08, 04:40 PM
I hated Babylon 5.

Give me Blakes 7 any day.


Interesting juxtaposition: the creator of Babylon 5 is a big fan of Blake's Seven.

Stuart
2003-Jul-08, 05:11 PM
Stuart, have you seen 'Starship Down' [DS9]?

Yes indeed, in fact I thought it was one of the better DS9 episodes. Some bits were hokey but scenes on the bridge where CWO O'Brien is teaching Worf how to be an officer were a classic example of how to inject dramatic tension into a situation. Its an old military situation of a veteran NCO taking a young and barely-qualified officer in hand and gently setting them on the right path handled very well (memo to self; must find the script). It was a remarkable scene in many ways, not least because it actually suggests that one of their prime characters is seriously fallible and barely-qualified for his position. I suspect somebody smacked the writer's heads around on that one.

There is another big jump in quality between TNG series 3 and 4. In series 4, the Enterprise-D gives a feel of being a real ship with a real crew. There's an interesting story behind that. Jonathan Frakes and Patrick Stewart were in Los Angeles when one of the big carriers came in on a visit (she might have been the CVN-65 Enterprise). On a whim, they visited the ship and were recognized by some of the officers. As a result, both got taken out for a couple of days and shown how a real ship runs. When they got back, they had a Come-To-Jesus meeting with the script department and got changes made. That's why some things like the deserted feel of the ship during the Night Watch and officers taking on extra duties so they can qualify for promotion suddenly started to appear.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-08, 05:12 PM
The only probelm with the ship using ammunition and modern day weapons is that it actually has to store the stuff. With phasers all they have to store is a single battery per weapon. The just charge it between missions.

How much room will a year or more supply of ammunition and guns take up? Once replicators come about then you do not have the problem anymore, but for TOS and Entherprise, you do have to deal with this.

So in essence, say you are going on a 3 year mission. Would you rather have a gun with ammo that takes up no extra space but is half the firepower than a weapon that needs entire cargo bays for ammunition?

Sure it has not sight or power, but on a long mission i'll take it for just convenience. Who knows, some enterprising engineer can figure out to make up accurate sights and a good stable body for it.

daver
2003-Jul-08, 05:20 PM
I hated Babylon 5.

Give me Blakes 7 any day.


Interesting juxtaposition: the creator of Babylon 5 is a big fan of Blake's Seven.

And the creator of Blake's Seven was a big fan of TOS (too bad he didn't read some of Gerold's ST books--they might not have had to resort to the "bop them on the heads and steal their communicators so they can't transport out" plot device so often).

Stuart
2003-Jul-08, 05:29 PM
How much room will a year or more supply of ammunition and guns take up? Once replicators come about then you do not have the problem anymore, but for TOS and Entherprise, you do have to deal with this.

Good question for a design study that. Its not just the ammunition storage of course. For the phasers we have to include the power generation, management routing etc etc. Also what is our likely ammunition consumption per year and what replenishment facilities are available. Another point is lethality. Given that ST era shielding has little or no capability against projectile weapons, the destructive effects of a 2,700 pound 16 inch shell exploding in the guts of a starship whould be worth considering. And thats assuming the crew don't use a Mk.23 Katie. At the sort of ranges starships fight (10 kilometers max) guns have a lot of advantages over directed energy weapons.

CthulhuBob
2003-Jul-08, 09:17 PM
How much room will a year or more supply of ammunition and guns take up? Once replicators come about then you do not have the problem anymore, but for TOS and Entherprise, you do have to deal with this.

Good question for a design study that. Its not just the ammunition storage of course. For the phasers we have to include the power generation, management routing etc etc. Also what is our likely ammunition consumption per year and what replenishment facilities are available. Another point is lethality. Given that ST era shielding has little or no capability against projectile weapons, the destructive effects of a 2,700 pound 16 inch shell exploding in the guts of a starship whould be worth considering. And thats assuming the crew don't use a Mk.23 Katie. At the sort of ranges starships fight (10 kilometers max) guns have a lot of advantages over directed energy weapons.

Quick note here - Space : Above & Beyond used projectile weapons exclusively and it definitely looked more realistic and lethal than the weapons and combat of the Trek universe. They even flew their fighters in a realistic Newtonian fashion (most of the time). This is the same reason I like the B5 space combat sequences - added realism. And on B5 they had continuous beam weapons that tore ships apart unlike the scorch marks that appear and disappear in Trek combat.

AstroSmurf
2003-Jul-09, 07:12 AM
Quick note here - Space : Above & Beyond used projectile weapons exclusively and it definitely looked more realistic and lethal than the weapons and combat of the Trek universe. They even flew their fighters in a realistic Newtonian fashion (most of the time). This is the same reason I like the B5 space combat sequences - added realism. And on B5 they had continuous beam weapons that tore ships apart unlike the scorch marks that appear and disappear in Trek combat.
One problem of B5 is more or less the same that the Borg situation shows: tech inflation. It started out fairly reasonable, with the humans having fairly understandable tech. Granted, the Mimbari/Vorlons were close to hand-waving territory, but they hardly did anything, so you could discount them for the most purposes.

The problems started cropping up later in the series, as the main characters got their hands on some serious tech and started throwing their weight around. All of the sudden, the big scary Shadow ships weren't all that scary anymore; one ship was a handful early on, and three were enough to take on a civilization, but later, they could take on a whole bunch of them, with losses but still.

That's one reason why I liked Matrix Reloaded - an agent still beats Morpheus. 8)

Another troubling thing is that the physics of the sfx went more and more cinematic the longer they went. Pity.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-09, 09:32 AM
snip

The problems started cropping up later in the series, as the main characters got their hands on some serious tech and started throwing their weight around. All of the sudden, the big scary Shadow ships weren't all that scary anymore; one ship was a handful early on, and three were enough to take on a civilization, but later, they could take on a whole bunch of them, with losses but still.


snip



I would say that was something in it's favour, Continuity. things do move and advance, existing weapons are improved and new ones devised or adapted from your enemy.

Look at the advances made in just 6 years over WWII in all fields, Aircraft, ships, armour, electronics etc.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-09, 09:36 AM
Against a ship like the NG Enterprise I don't see the advantage of a projectile weapon if it is firing explosive shells. When a Phaser hits it ttransfers it's energy into the target but an exploding shell is going to waste a lot of energy as blast.

Some kind of shaped charge or solid shot would be better surely? In theory a Phaser can keep up a sustained fire against a small target area and transfer far more energy than even several shells.

Stuart
2003-Jul-09, 12:51 PM
Against a ship like the NG Enterprise I don't see the advantage of a projectile weapon if it is firing explosive shells. When a Phaser hits it ttransfers it's energy into the target but an exploding shell is going to waste a lot of energy as blast.

The idea of a shell would be that it would penetrate to the internal parts of teh ship and explode there - doing immense damage (especially if the shell was a Mk.23 :) ). Energy weapons expend their energy on the first thing they meet so they don't have the same pentrative effect. David Drake's "Hammer's Slammer's" series has interesting comments on the relative merits of projectiles and energy weapons (and in that universe, the issue is still debated, some regiments preferring projectiles, the others energy weapons).


Some kind of shaped charge or solid shot would be better surely?
That's a good advantage of projectile weapons; there can be a range of projectiles optimized for varying targets.


In theory a Phaser can keep up a sustained fire against a small target area and transfer far more energy than even several shells.
True, but in reality a ship armed with phasers facinga ship armed with 16 inch naval rifles wouldn't live long enough to keep up sustained fire.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-09, 01:03 PM
True, but in reality a ship armed with phasers facinga ship armed with 16 inch naval rifles wouldn't live long enough to keep up sustained fire.

I still don't agree with this, what's the muzzle velocity of a cannon?, surely you move out of the way, if you have 'intertial dampers' and can move in 3 dimensions how can an unguided weapon hit?

Also the shells would explode against the shields and not deep inside the ship so a large proportion of their energy won't be transfered to the target.

man on the moon
2003-Jul-09, 01:07 PM
just a thought...aren't federation ships supposed to have deflectors as well? essentially a really big force field around the ship? we knew the shields can act in the same manner--they keep aliens (i'm thinking of voyager: equinox among other eps here) out, and other ships in...so the shields obviously block more than just energy charges. seems like any projectile weapon would be deflected into space just like any asteroid the ship might meet while moving. whether at impulse or warp 9.9, no asteroid can get through the shields/deflectors. doesn't seem a projectile would!

captain swoop
2003-Jul-09, 01:56 PM
just a thought...aren't federation ships supposed to have deflectors as well? essentially a really big force field around the ship? we knew the shields can act in the same manner--they keep aliens (i'm thinking of voyager: equinox among other eps here) out, and other ships in...so the shields obviously block more than just energy charges. seems like any projectile weapon would be deflected into space just like any asteroid the ship might meet while moving. whether at impulse or warp 9.9, no asteroid can get through the shields/deflectors. doesn't seem a projectile would!

And, if your enemy was employing a projectile weapon with armour piercing ability you would make sure your ships carried enough armour to block them. In space you don't have to worry aboutthe weight.

Interestingly in the Vayager Elite Force game, one of the missions is to reactivate a gunship that is just a huge Gauss cannon with engines attached.

Stuart
2003-Jul-09, 02:28 PM
I still don't agree with this, what's the muzzle velocity of a cannon?, surely you move out of the way, if you have 'intertial dampers' and can move in 3 dimensions how can an unguided weapon hit?

What would you like the muzzle velocity to be? It can be manipulated to match tactical considerations. Also, when firing in space, the shell is not going to lose velocity due to atmospheric drag.

Lets assume we get an Iowa class battleship into space. A full broadside would consist of 9 16 inch shells, each massing 1227 kg and moving at 762 m/s. Upon impact, the shells stop on or in the target vessel in which case their full 3.56 GJ of kinetic energy and 3 GJ of chemical potential energy are delivered, or they punch holes all the way through the ship (in which case they actually do less damage because they still retain most of their kinetic energy and all of their chemical potential energy when they come out the other side). That's more than 6 GJ of energy (not to mention nearly 6E6 kg·m/s of momentum), and we've seen how gigajoule-range energy yields can pummel the Enterprise (as seen in "Survivors").

The story doesn't end there. Thats technology sixty years old. Using modern shell propellent and using the standard 16 inch L50 as a basis, we can extrapolate a muzzle velocity of 1,700 meters per second (equivalent to that of a shot from a 125 millimeter T-72 tank cannon) for a reasonable and attainable shell. Bearing in mind that the average combat range of Startrek ships is less than 10 kilometers (a lot less - in several of the DS9 actions, hanging off at 10 km was effectively out of range) we have a maximum flight time of slightly under six seconds. However, that isn't the end of the story. There is no reason to assume that the shell is unguided. Course-corrected munitions are already entering service for existing 76 millimeter and 127 millimeter weapons. They use a pif-paf steering system that can respond to either laser designation systems or command-to-line-of-sight guidance.


Also the shells would explode against the shields and not deep inside the ship so a large proportion of their energy won't be transfered to the target.

Actually shields are ineffective against kinetic energy attacks. Ramming tactics are widely used in the Star Trek universe. Worf called for "ramming speed" in STFC, Jem'Hadar vessels rammed the USS Odyssey and destroyed it in DS9, and Commander Riker prepared to ram the Borg Cube in the TNG two-part episode "Best of Both Worlds". In addition, we know that (a) the Borg assimilated and utilized Federation technology and (b) their personal shields cannot stop a burst from a submachine gun (firing wimpy pistol rounds). Both of these issues point to the inability of shields to counter physical attack.

However, in the final analysis we revert to using a Mk.23. This is comparable (at least) to a photon torpedo. (estimated yield somewhere between 110 and 450 kilotons).

That last needs some explanation. We have a precise canon knowledge of the explosive power of a Class 6 Photon Torpedo - 0.2 kilotons.


VOY Season 3, Ep# 69: "Scorpion Part II"
7 of 9: Voyager's weapons inventory. Photon torpedo complement: 32. Class 6 warhead. Explosive yield: 200 isotons.
TUVOK (surprised): How did you obtain this information?
7 of 9: We are Borg.
TUVOK: Naturally.

iso prefix means equal to so we know that isoton means explosive power equivalent to one ton. Its possible to do some calculations base don seen weapons effects so that we can guess the yield is around that given. Now,


TNG Season 2, Ep# 42: "Q Who?"
RIKER: Lock on photon torpedoes.
WORF: Yes, sir.
DATA: Without our shields -- at this range there is a high degree of probability that a photon detonation could destroy the Enterprise.

So we know from Canon that a photon torpedo explosion against the hull of an unshielded Enterprise will destroy it. The maximum yield of a Photon Torpedo is around 450 kilotons, a Mk.23 is up to 550 kilotons (although usually dialed down to much less for operational reasons).

Bye-bye Enterprise.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-09, 03:44 PM
snip

Actually shields are ineffective against kinetic energy attacks. Ramming tactics are widely used in the Star Trek universe. Worf called for "ramming speed" in STFC, Jem'Hadar vessels rammed the USS Odyssey and destroyed it in DS9, and Commander Riker prepared to ram the Borg Cube in the TNG two-part episode "Best of Both Worlds". In addition, we know that (a) the Borg assimilated and utilized Federation technology and (b) their personal shields cannot stop a burst from a submachine gun (firing wimpy pistol rounds). Both of these issues point to the inability of shields to counter physical attack.

snip


this doesn't make sense as the deflector array uses the same tech as the shields, also there have been episodes where the shields have stopped physical objects from hitting the ship.

I assume that when ramming the energy delivered by a ship like Enterprise hitting the target would be enough to cause damage. Or the writers just decided that 'Ramming Speed' sounded good and warlike, Glowworm rammed the hipper and therre are several instances of destroyers ramming submarines or other destroyers as a last resort. It would be tempting to do this in a space battle and ignore the shields.

Now using some kind of Gauss weapon to super accelerate a big chunk of depleted uranium might be fun, as we know the systems on the enterprise fall over if you slam the door too hard.

man on the moon
2003-Jul-09, 04:08 PM
Actually shields are ineffective against kinetic energy attacks. Ramming tactics are widely used in the Star Trek universe. Worf called for "ramming speed" in STFC

it's been a while since i saw any of the episodes mentioned in the post...my memory seems to say though that they rammed to knock down shields or once shields were failing and couldn't handle defending such a huge surface area at once. anyway, if shields couldn't protect against kinetic attacks...enterprise would have been damaged terribly in any ramming exercise, at least as much as the other ship. seems the shields have at least some power against this. maybe it's like wearing a helmet. it'll keep you from smashing open, but you'll still get a good bump for your effort. hmm

in any case, in a battle, in order to fire a kinetic weapon you would have to lower your shields for several seconds to get them launched...and do that any time you wanted to fire. unless you got lucky, i doubt a shieldless ship would stand up!

Stuart
2003-Jul-09, 04:40 PM
in any case, in a battle, in order to fire a kinetic weapon you would have to lower your shields for several seconds to get them launched...and do that any time you wanted to fire. unless you got lucky, i doubt a shieldless ship would stand up!

No no no. Think it through! Since "shields" have no effect on kinetic energy weapons, its perfectly possible to fire such shots out through the shields. To a lump of high-velocity steel, the shields simply are not there. Doesn't matter whether the shell is going out or coming in; the shields don't matter.

There is a multiplicity of evidence (ranging from direct attack to interactions with physical phenomena) that shields do not handle physical contact with things well. Small, slow-moving objects do bounce off due to the "deflector" but that is it. That suggests the very strange and peculiar ('shields" get stranger and more peculiar the more they are investigated) shield mechanism is extremely inefficient at handling physical impact. A few seconds thought should suggest why. When an energy bolt strikes a "shield" it is absorbed and re-radiated. No problem. But a physical projectile has kinetic energy and momentum. They are not just going to go away. In fact - they get transferred back through the system to the shield generator and to that unit itself. Given a violent impact (like a 16 inch shell) that unit is likely to be torn from its mountings and turned into a projectile itself.

We get a similar situation with tanks. Hit a tank with an armor-piercing bolt and even if the shot doesn't penetrate, a large scab of metal detaches from the inside of the armor and proceeds to bounce around the inside of the tank. Detached body parts, mangled limbs, screams of agony, hideous mutilation, it really sucks. (Credit to Colonel Jack o'Neill)

The physics of the situation dictate that shields cannot provide a defense against a physical projectile - at most they can deflect small slow ones. Which is as good a reason as any for the distinction between shields and deflectors.

On armor thickness. For about three centuries, there has been a battle between gun and armor. The gun always wins. There are serious limits on how thick a given piece of armor can be and we're bouncing those limits now. Improving technology doesn't help - develop a new technology to produce armor or greater equivalent thickness and that technology will be applied to shells to penetrate the new armor - and then some.

man on the moon
2003-Jul-09, 06:25 PM
That suggests the very strange and peculiar ('shields" get stranger and more peculiar the more they are investigated) shield mechanism is extremely inefficient at handling physical impact.

wow. i have just been thouroughly schooled on federation shields! my young brain's memory hasn't served me as well as i had hoped it had. thanks for the lesson!

maybe i need to go back and review the "lessons"...he he. nothing like a good excuse!

one more question though. would it be possible for both deflectors and shields to be on at the same time? that could save a lot of problems if you were rammed...unless it's impossible. and of course, that wouldn't make for a very good story :wink:

wedgebert
2003-Jul-09, 07:06 PM
Actually, the ST shields have to be extremely good at handling physical impact. Even using impulse engines, the Enterprise is moving around at high fractions of light speed, and at those speeds, even dust in space is going to impact with a lot of energy.

Secondly, you're assuming that momentium is transferred from the shields to the generator. Why would that be true? Since shielding has no basis in our physics, there's nothing to say that the imcoming projectile isn't converted into energy when it hits the shield.

Also, the shields are somewhat spherical (elliptical) in shape, so projectile attacks can also just be deflected if they're not perpendictular to the sheilds upon impact.

Finally, you can't say too much about ST shields because odds are that the writers will complelety change how they work in any given episode. So one episode they might not affect physical objects at all and the next lets though fly into asteroids at warp 5 with no damage.

man on the moon
2003-Jul-09, 07:29 PM
:o :o :o

may i say i am thouroughly confused? i am starting to feel like a PXer..wrong and right and neither all at the same time! it is cause for a headache... :P

(i'm NOT saying they're right...i just mean that they have all their facts mixed up--most are wrong, a few are right, and some, well, some just are. :-? )

Stuart
2003-Jul-09, 07:37 PM
Actually, the ST shields have to be extremely good at handling physical impact. Even using impulse engines, the Enterprise is moving around at high fractions of light speed, and at those speeds, even dust in space is going to impact with a lot of energy.
Firstly, is impulse power really a substantial fraction of the speed of light? Consider the following.,


TNG Season 1, Ep# 21: "Arsenal of Freedom"
GEORDI: Keep those shields at full power. It'll be on us any moment.
WORF: Shields holding.
GEORDI: Ahead one-quarter, heading two-five mark three-zero-zero.
LIAN: That heading will take us further into the planet's atmosphere.
GEORDI: That's correct. We're going to lose some maneuverability, so keep a firm hand on the helm.
LIAN: Aye, sir.
WORF: You want our attacker to follow us into the atmosphere.
GEORDI: That's what I'm hoping. Scan for any air disruption or vortex -- cloak or no cloak, we'll spot it by its turbulence.

When the Enterprise enters the atmosphere at ¼ impulse there is only a very limited violence interaction between the ship and the atmosphere. This strongly suggests that the common Trekkie claim that ¼ impulse is actually ¼ c is mistaken. At ¼ c, the ship would be entering the atmosphere at thousands of times the speed with which real-life Apollo re-entry craft hit the atmosphere, yet the ion storm around the ship wasn't even intense enough to obscure our view of said ship. Implication -0.25 impulse power is much less than a high fraction of the speed of light.


Secondly, you're assuming that momentium is transferred from the shields to the generator. Why would that be true? Since shielding has no basis in our physics, there's nothing to say that the incoming projectile isn't converted into energy when it hits the shield.
Because the basic laws of physics still apply. Especially those relating to conservation of momentum. If they don't, all life ceases. The challenge is to make things work using the laws of physics as they are. Claiming they aren't creates more problems than they solve. Anyway we KNOW shields don't stop projectiles - ramming attacks work - to the point where they are a preferred form of attack (destruction of the Odyssey, destruction of Klingon cruisers).

Even if it was possible to build a "shield system" of virtually infinite strength, the overall effectiveness of the system would still be limited by good old-fashioned structural limits. Ultimately, the survivability of a shielded spacecraft against physical impacts could (and would, given sufficient shield strength) conceivably come down to a set of bolts holding a shield generator onto the ship's spaceframe. This example highlights the severe problem with people who get involved in systems design; they tend to concentrate on the strongest link in the chain, not the weakest link in the chain forgetting where failure is likely to concern. Classic example is a missile program where the engineering was beautifully worked out except for the fact that the doors on the missile magazine wouldn't open. Good missile, good radar, great C4I, wonderful crew, superb training, lousy hinges. System didn't work.


Also, the shields are somewhat spherical (elliptical) in shape, so projectile attacks can also just be deflected if they're not perpendictular to the shields upon impact.
Actually, thats a vector problem; we run into it quite frequently when designing armored vehicles. Its why the glacis plate on the front of a tank is sloped. The front armor on an M1 Abrams is almost horizontal. Here, it doesn't matter because the "shield" doesn't affect the shot. If there is no significant interaction between the two, it doesn't matter what the angle of impact is.


Finally, you can't say too much about ST shields because odds are that the writers will complelety change how they work in any given episode. So one episode they might not affect physical objects at all and the next lets though fly into asteroids at warp 5 with no damage.
Their problem not mine. I said the scriptwriters are incompetent and unprofessional. Nevertheless, I try and make things work as best I can.

Glom
2003-Jul-09, 07:38 PM
I think full impulse was said to be a ¼c.

Stuart
2003-Jul-09, 08:02 PM
I think full impulse was said to be a ¼c.

Interesting question. Lets have a look at some dialog.


TNG Season 3, Ep# 61: "Deja Q"

GEORDI: Captain, the impact of the blast is pushing us into the upper atmosphere...
DATA: Hull temperature rising... two thousand degrees... two thousand five hundred degrees.
GEORDI: Moving to full impulse power... we've gotta get out of here...
WORF: Calamarain are resuming attack ... they've overpowered the shields... hull penetration... deck thirty-six... Engineering...
RIKER: Geordi, can you direct any more power to the shields... ?
GEORDI: We need all the power we have to get out of the atmosphere, Commander.
(The calamarain attack Q in engineering - hoorah!)
GEORDI (to an underling) : Try activating the structural integrity field.
(Data tries to save Q, gets whats coming to him)
GEORDI: It's not working. Structural field harmonics on manual.
RIKER: Hull temperature falling, Geordi ... we're in the clear ...

This is interesting; I timed this and it takes slightly more than 45 seconds at "full impulse power" to get out of the atmosphere (five lines of dialogue plus some live action). This throws grave doubts on the ability of the impulse engines to push starships to relativistic speeds. Allowing for everything (and assuming the atmosphere is 1,000 kiolomters thick), we're way, way short of 0.25c. My guess is that the solid particle contact problem is resolved by slow speed rather than the deflector. My guess is the deflector works against low-momentum (ir light weight/high speed) particles, not one ton chunks of steel.

daver
2003-Jul-09, 08:58 PM
I think full impulse was said to be a ¼c.

Interesting question. Lets have a look at some dialog.


TNG Season 3, Ep# 61: "Deja Q"

GEORDI: Captain, the impact of the blast is pushing us into the upper atmosphere...
DATA: Hull temperature rising... two thousand degrees... two thousand five hundred degrees.
GEORDI: Moving to full impulse power... we've gotta get out of here...
WORF: Calamarain are resuming attack ... they've overpowered the shields... hull penetration... deck thirty-six... Engineering...
RIKER: Geordi, can you direct any more power to the shields... ?
GEORDI: We need all the power we have to get out of the atmosphere, Commander.
(The calamarain attack Q in engineering - hoorah!)
GEORDI (to an underling) : Try activating the structural integrity field.
(Data tries to save Q, gets whats coming to him)
GEORDI: It's not working. Structural field harmonics on manual.
RIKER: Hull temperature falling, Geordi ... we're in the clear ...

This is interesting; I timed this and it takes slightly more than 45 seconds at "full impulse power" to get out of the atmosphere (five lines of dialogue plus some live action). This throws grave doubts on the ability of the impulse engines to push starships to relativistic speeds. Allowing for everything (and assuming the atmosphere is 1,000 kiolomters thick), we're way, way short of 0.25c. My guess is that the solid particle contact problem is resolved by slow speed rather than the deflector. My guess is the deflector works against low-momentum (ir light weight/high speed) particles, not one ton chunks of steel.

We had a discussion about this in the past. Specifically, in the whale movie they move at presumably max speed from San Francisco to Alaska to shave the whales. To me, this implied that full impulse wasn't a velocity but an acceleration (somewhere around 10 g's). There was some contention about this.

I seem to remember the Enterprise shields being extended to surround ships moving through asteroid belts (either in Mudd's Women or Journey to Eden). Which implies that they have some impact on physical objects. Also, in the episode where Kirk goes native, the Enterprise tries to deflect an asteroid with its tractor beams, to no avail. (apparently Scotty doesn't know much orbital mechanics, as they had weeks or months to deflect it, and Scotty tried to do it in one go)

There's been some discussion about deflectors being needed to handle relativistic dust particles. I don't think this is an issue--the Enterprise spends most of its high-speed time in subspace. Maybe there's no dust in subspace. The deflectors then would mainly be used to deflect paint chips or whatnot moving at merely orbital velocities.

If i were designing a star trek game, i'd have deflectors (and tractors, obviously) affect physical objects, but be limited in the amount of force they could impose on the objects, and the distance over which they could apply the force. So, maybe the Enterprise's deflectors could accelerate a 1 ton object at 100 g's. I haven't tried to find the mass of a starship, but if you juggle the numbers a bit you could get full impulse to overshadow full deflector.

darkhunter
2003-Jul-09, 09:08 PM
I assume that when ramming the energy delivered by a ship like Enterprise hitting the target would be enough to cause damage. Or the writers just decided that 'Ramming Speed' sounded good and warlike, Glowworm rammed the hipper and therre are several instances of destroyers ramming submarines or other destroyers as a last resort. It would be tempting to do this in a space battle and ignore the shields.


Take smallish asteroid (nickle-iron composition for strength). Install warp drive (warp core you can skimp on a lot of the safety stuff on) and guidance system. Ram borg cube at maximum warp. the impact engery ought to vaporize it. If there's a sheild on the "warp Missile" and it survies, lather, rinse, repeat until you run our of borg or the sheilds finally let go....

#-o Con: Expense and time to build, but no object to the Federation....

=D> Pro: Moving faster than light, the borg wouldn't have a lot of warning--they'll assume its just a starship coming in for a strafing run, easily handled by sheilding.

MartianMarvin
2003-Jul-10, 03:49 AM
I've seen a good deal of TNG, but very little of the other ST series. One thing I've noticed is that all fired weapons (torpedos, phasor 'bolts', etc) just 'disappear' when they miss their mark. Has an explanation for this phenomenon been given?

------------

I've also seen (and enjoyed) most of the later B5 episodes. The first 2 seasons or so of B5 were forgettable (so-so writing, poor acting, etc.). It didn't really have a good plot and couldn't advance the story at all (I don't think they got past the whole Mbari-Earth War thing for most of the first season). But the big plot points did lend important pieces to later seasons, where the writing definitely got better and they were able to advance the plots at a good pace, develop the characters (although in a very soap-operatic way)and reasonably tied things together. Even with the constant soap opera-ish plot devices, and only minor improvement with the acting, in the end, they still managed to tell a pretty good story.

Hopefully--and it really wouldn't take much-- Enterprise could follow a similar path. All they need to do is come up with a reasonable threat or two that takes more than a couple of episodes to deal with. Of course, they would have to do that without making mince-meat out of the continuity with itself and the other Trek series. Which, to this point, seems beyond the ability of B&B. It can't be that hard, can it?

Hmmm.....I smell a new topic...What kind of conflict would make the Enterprise series a more interesting and viable story without trashing the Trek continuity (at least moderately)?

Humphrey
2003-Jul-10, 04:22 AM
I think the starting of hostilities and a cold war with the romulans could go a very far way.


If i remebver right Photon torpedoes have a limited time after they are activeted. They will then self detruct.

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Jul-10, 04:40 AM
I am no expert, but I always assumed impulse was a "force", so that by saying full impulse the Captain is asking for maximum acceleration. 1/4 would then be 1/4 the max force, or at least 1/4 of some standard acceleration.

In this way, 1/4 impulse will get you to some large fraction of the speed of light, but it would take 4 times longer than full impulse would (barring relativistic effects).

By the way, the level of discourse in this thread is amazing.

QuagmaPhage
2003-Jul-10, 11:03 AM
According to this site (http://www.stdimension.de/int/Cartography/IntroTools.htm) ST:TNG Technical Manual and Star Trek Encyclopedia include tables of the multiples of the light speed (c) or the km/s certain warp factor or impulse fractions correspond to.


Velocity
1/4 impulse = 0.0625c = 18737 km/s

1/2 impulse = 0.125c = 37474 km/s

Full impulse = 0.25c = 74948 km/s

Warp 1 = c = 299792 km/s

kucharek
2003-Jul-10, 11:17 AM
We had a discussion about this in the past. Specifically, in the whale movie they move at presumably max speed from San Francisco to Alaska to shave the whales.
I always thought the hairies were in San Francisco... ;-)

I guess, impulse is one of the most undefined units in the ST universe.

There is one thing I always had been curious about in TOS: When the Enterprise fires its phasers down on a planet, it emits mostly two beams, clearly divergent in some V shape. Here (http://homepage.tinet.ie/~watty/tcz/picz/tos/1701phas.jpg) an image. Cut to the planet where the object to be destroyed is: Two beams hit, not very far away from each other but also clearly diverging. Sometimes it could be explained away by some perspective effect on parallel beams, but often, perspective doesn't fits.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-10, 11:23 AM
snip


There is one thing I always had been curious about in TOS: When the Enterprise fires its phasers down on a planet, it emits mostly two beams, clearly divergent in some V shape. Here (http://homepage.tinet.ie/~watty/tcz/picz/tos/1701phas.jpg) an image. Cut to the planet where the object to be destroyed is: Two beams hit, not very far away from each other but also clearly diverging. Sometimes it could be explained away by some perspective effect on parallel beams, but often, perspective doesn't fits.

Limitations of budget and effects ability?

In Dr Who beams sometimes appear from a point above or below a weapon, it was a limitation of the early 'blue screen' technique.

The Shade
2003-Jul-10, 04:05 PM
When you find it, please tell us. I love a good trashin'. :wink:

Just because you asked so nicely, and who am I to resist? :wink: I wasn't able to find the direct link, the forum I read it from originally only quoted the passage, whick I will also do for you now. Enjoy!


Here's a commentary about Regeneration by 411wrestling.com columnist Eric Szulczewski:

But not even WWE has gone as far and as desperate as the crew at the Trek office did last week. In forty-three minutes (plus commercials), they proceeded to violate the most important rule of Trek Time Travel: Bend but not break the Temporal Prime Directive. Let's see how each series handled this:

Classic Trek screwed around time travel twice in the series and once in the movies, with little damage (thank you, Gary Seven, for minimalizing the damage in the most important case). NextGen simply solved an effect-to-cause paradox. DS9 got away with this one once, when Sisko and Dax proved to be critical to the development of the Federation. Voyager may have done a whole boatload of time travel episodes, but the only damage was caused by character and plot convenience (the Doctor's mobile emitter, a Trek equivalent of a necessary turn to keep a character fresh), not to mention total confusion regarding one of its first season cause-effect-cause paradoxes, which fans ignored because the episode sucked donkey balls.

Enterprise, in less than two seasons, has introduced an oblique time-traveling threat and solved a major future-history problem, not to mention the Ferengi difficulties. That's bad enough, but the inconsistencies presented in "Regeneration" produce cause-and-effect problems that WWE would love to do so that their audience can ignore them and they can hit the Ultimate Reset Button. Let's go through Enterprise's, one by one, okay?

We have to start here with a Proposition Zero, because it affects everything:

0) Don't tell me that Archer and Phlox didn't keep logs about this incident for future reference. If they didn't, T'Pol sure as hell did (it would be logical to do so). That means that Picard, who is a student of every ship called Enterprise (presumably including Enterprise Prime), didn't know who the Borg were the first time he encountered them. Told you we'd get back to that one.

0a) Can they weasel out of the NextGen "first contact"? No. Janeway specifically tells Q in Voyager's episode "Deathwish" that Q introduced the Federation to the Borg. Janeway always chooses her words very, very carefully.

1) The Borg frozen on Earth are from First Contact (movie, not NextGen episode). That means that they traveled back in time to prevent Zephram Cochrane from developing warp drive, thus preventing first contact with the Vulcans, thus preventing the Federation. These Borg, therefore, are 24th Century Borg stuck in the 22nd Century, and they are still connected to the Collective.

1a) The First Contact interference can be explained easily by it only involving the Enterprise-E crew and a drunk fantasist who no one believed (as stated directly in "Regeneration"). But the Borg should know about the existence of Earth from that incident.

1b) They can't get away with saying the Collective doesn't exist. Phlox experiences the standard "I can hear millions of voices" thing.

2) Since the Collective does exist, the Borg that were frozen immediately would have spread knowledge of Federation 24th Century technology to the Collective. They would adapt as quickly as possible to this situation, including assimilating battle tactics. This means that the modified Borg shuttle should have treated Enterprise Prime like an M1A1 would have treated a US Civil War cavalry charge. Bye Bye, Archer, it's been good to know you.

3) Given the Borg's nature, how is it that Archer, Reid, et al, were able to blast almost a dozen Borg to pieces before they adapted to the phase pistols? We've seen Starfleet people get off no more than two shots with more advanced phasers and phaser rifles before adaptation. Remember again, these are 24th Century Borg that have assimilated 22nd Century humanoids. One shot, maybe, and that's it.

4) If Phlox's radiation treatment worked so well against combatting the Borg nanoprobes, wouldn't he have written it up in his log? If so, why would Crusher and Voyager's EMH risk dangerous surgery to remove Borg nanoprobes (and implants) from Picard and Seven Of Nine, respectively? Just soak them down with radiation, and voila. Don't say that the nanoprobes adapted to the treatment, because these are 24th Century nanoprobes, which presumably would have been pre-adapted to this. If Enterprise Prime wasn't destroyed, the crew would have been assimilated. However, given the wooden level of acting by most of the cast, the difference wouldn't have been discernable.

5) Voyager's Borg adaptions were of the same kind as Enterprise Prime's. So how come the entire crew of Voyager, with two centuries' more engineering knowledge, took weeks and required Seven Of Nine to rid their ship of Borg material, while it took Enterprise Prime days and no Borg help to do so? Trip has more knowledge of Borg systems than Seven, with two hundred years' less technological knowledge and not having been part of the Collective?

5a) For that matter, why the hell doesn't Archer even consider keeping the Borg technology in place and trying to understand what it does? Voyager used adapted Borg technology on a weekly ****ing basis (engine modifications, the Astrometrics lab, Borg star charts, etc.; even nanoprobes became a deus ex machina for a while). This could advance Terran space travel by a hundred years in one shot.

6) So, T'Pol, it's going to take 200 years for the Borg to come from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant? With transwarp conduits, which can traverse vast amounts of space instantaneously (as per the 30000 light-years Voyager travels in the final episode of that series)?

6a) Even if the Borg don't have transwarp conduits at that point, either the First Contact Borg or the "Regeneration" Borg would have transmitted that knowledge to the Collective. Therefore, the Borg have that knowledge. And they can't use it? Come on.

Please note that all of these statements and questions are working off established knowledge in the Trek Canon. All of this could be easily extrapolated to Trek History. If a little bit of thought had been put into this by the Trek "creative staff", they would have realized that this episode was completely impossible to justify, even given Trek's "I don't give a ****" attitude about time paradoxes. This is absolutely painful to anyone who has ever loved Star Trek.

Glom
2003-Jul-10, 04:18 PM
Thanks, The Shade. How deliciously vicious. =D>

Humphrey
2003-Jul-10, 04:51 PM
Hehehe...That guy hit the button right on the head. :-)

Stuart
2003-Jul-10, 05:09 PM
Thank you very much Shade; that was a delight to read.

Doodler
2003-Jul-10, 09:48 PM
Ok, riding to E-Prime's rescue here. Regeneration, couple of factoids to consider. When the Borg first arrived over 21st Century Earth, they were going to need an interplexing beacon to contact the Borg of that era. No interplexing beacon, no direct contact. The million voices bit is all well and good, you can hear a carrier signal, but not make out any information. Secondly, referencing Voyager, the network of the Collective was decentralized, controlled locally from each ship. Remember the Voyager Episode with the Cooperative? The link that kept the drones connected to the Collective was aboard the derelict Cube, meaning ships of the Borg could survive separation from the Full Collective for extended periods. Access to 22nd century information can be seen as limited by the resources they had to work with. They may be 24th century Borg, but since when is your average Borg drone more than a preprogrammed moron? And since when is a shuttle, modified or not, loaded with the Encyclopedia Galactica? Seven had a boatload of info in her head because she had a higher position in the hierarchy, Tertiary Adjunct to somesuch or another. A couple of drones in a modified shuttle aren't going to know Earth History just for asking. Multiple shots prior to adaptation? I'll grant this as a bad plot device, or the limitations of the adaptation technology without the processing power of a fullbore Cube/Sphere to read the energy signatures and make the changes.. Parallel to modern tech, how often have I sat before a Pentium 4 working on a complex software wishing even it could work faster.

MightyMoo
2003-Jul-11, 12:16 AM
I'm certainly not a big fan of Enterprise, but Regeneration wasn't one of the worst episodes out there. With only a few discrepancies, I begrudgingly liked this one. I don't want to make excuses for the writers as I think they need to get their collective heads out of their word deleted and write something new and different for a change.


In forty-three minutes (plus commercials), they proceeded to violate the most important rule of Trek Time Travel: Bend but not break the Temporal Prime Directive.

To me, it seemed they did whatever they wanted when they wanted to do a time travel episode. "Temporal Prime Directive" is not mandatory.


0) Don't tell me that Archer and Phlox didn't keep logs about this incident for future reference. If they didn't, T'Pol sure as hell did (it would be logical to do so). That means that Picard, who is a student of every ship called Enterprise (presumably including Enterprise Prime), didn't know who the Borg were the first time he encountered them. Told you we'd get back to that one.

I'm sure they did - but what did it get filed under? "Species that took over human beings"? There's more than one alien that has done that in the history of Trek. Nevermind that there would be volumes of data to sift through before anything resembling the Borg's modus operandi appeared.


0a) Can they weasel out of the NextGen "first contact"? No. Janeway specifically tells Q in Voyager's episode "Deathwish" that Q introduced the Federation to the Borg. Janeway always chooses her words very, very carefully.

Captain Janeway may choose her words carefully, but that doesn't mean she can't be wrong.


1) The Borg frozen on Earth are from First Contact (movie, not NextGen episode).

This I had a problem with. Nanites should be very fragile. Extremes of temperature should kill them outright (nevermind that they somehow had to survive the destruction of the sphere and the subsequent plummet to Earth).


That means that they traveled back in time to prevent Zephram Cochrane from developing warp drive, thus preventing first contact with the Vulcans, thus preventing the Federation. These Borg, therefore, are 24th Century Borg stuck in the 22nd Century, and they are still connected to the Collective.

Doodler's response to this is adequate.


1a) The First Contact interference can be explained easily by it only involving the Enterprise-E crew and a drunk fantasist who no one believed (as stated directly in "Regeneration"). But the Borg should know about the existence of Earth from that incident.

What incident, exactly?


1b) They can't get away with saying the Collective doesn't exist. Phlox experiences the standard "I can hear millions of voices" thing.

Fair enough.


2) Since the Collective does exist, the Borg that were frozen immediately would have spread knowledge of Federation 24th Century technology to the Collective. They would adapt as quickly as possible to this situation, including assimilating battle tactics. This means that the modified Borg shuttle should have treated Enterprise Prime like an M1A1 would have treated a US Civil War cavalry charge. Bye Bye, Archer, it's been good to know you.

Not if they never made it to the Colledctive.


3) Given the Borg's nature, how is it that Archer, Reid, et al, were able to blast almost a dozen Borg to pieces before they adapted to the phase pistols? We've seen Starfleet people get off no more than two shots with more advanced phasers and phaser rifles before adaptation. Remember again, these are 24th Century Borg that have assimilated 22nd Century humanoids. One shot, maybe, and that's it.

This is a tricky one, and I don't like what I'm about to say. Unlike the Feddies from the 24th century, Tucker increased the power output of the phase pistols instead of mucking with the frequency of the phase.


4) If Phlox's radiation treatment worked so well against combatting the Borg nanoprobes, wouldn't he have written it up in his log? If so, why would Crusher and Voyager's EMH risk dangerous surgery to remove Borg nanoprobes (and implants) from Picard and Seven Of Nine, respectively? Just soak them down with radiation, and voila.

First off, I don't like the Magically Disappearing Borg Modifications. I think it would have been greusome, yet intriguing to see Captain Picard with scars and some Borg pieces leftover from his assimilation. But that deals with assimilation, not 'infection' with the nanoprobes. Secondly, removing the attachments didn't rid one of the nanoprobes. We don't know how the nanoprobes were removed in the 24th century. For all we're told, Phlox's radiative treatment may have been the basis for returning Starfleet officers to duty after encountering the Borg.


5) Voyager's Borg adaptions were of the same kind as Enterprise Prime's. So how come the entire crew of Voyager, with two centuries' more engineering knowledge, took weeks and required Seven Of Nine to rid their ship of Borg material, while it took Enterprise Prime days and no Borg help to do so? Trip has more knowledge of Borg systems than Seven, with two hundred years' less technological knowledge and not having been part of the Collective?

Agreed. That damn reset button is a b-i-t-c-h.


5a) For that matter, why the hell doesn't Archer even consider keeping the Borg technology in place and trying to understand what it does?

I don't know of any captain of any vessel that would voluntarily want an unknown component attached to his ship. That's just asking for trouble.


Voyager used adapted Borg technology on a weekly basis (engine modifications, the Astrometrics lab, Borg star charts, etc.; even nanoprobes became a deus ex machina for a while). This could advance Terran space travel by a hundred years in one shot.

All of the Borg modifications that remained on Voyager were installed and monitored by Seven of Nine (Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix 0 0 1). For whatever reason, Janeway trusted Seven not to do anything to jeapordize Voyager needlessly.


6) So, T'Pol, it's going to take 200 years for the Borg to come from the Delta Quadrant to the Alpha Quadrant? With transwarp conduits, which can traverse vast amounts of space instantaneously (as per the 30000 light-years Voyager travels in the final episode of that series)?

This isn't a new problem with the Borg's transwarp conduit network. It's been suggested that the Earth would be in deep trouble had the writers thought the Borg possessed transwarp technology in Best of Both Worlds.

Now, to reply to Doodler.


Secondly, referencing Voyager, the network of the Collective was decentralized, controlled locally from each ship.

Except when it was shown to be controlled by the Queen.


They may be 24th century Borg, but since when is your average Borg drone more than a preprogrammed moron?

Best of Both Worlds. They were neither preprogrammed nor moronic.


A couple of drones in a modified shuttle aren't going to know Earth History just for asking.

Except for the super computing databases that have every piece of 20th century trivia on hand for inquisitive characters.

TinFoilHat
2003-Jul-11, 12:48 AM
Most of the continuity flaws can be explained if you assume that enterprise takes place in a divergent timeline that does not match up with the rest of the shows.

Or perhaps the writers are just hacks.

MightyMoo
2003-Jul-11, 01:03 AM
Most of the continuity flaws can be explained if you assume that enterprise takes place in a divergent timeline that does not match up with the rest of the shows.

Or perhaps the writers are just hacks.

Why can't it be both? #-o

Waarthog
2003-Jul-11, 02:09 AM
Or perhaps the writers are just hacks.

They prove this on a weekly basis.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-11, 02:11 AM
The problem with the Enterprise Borg episode is that even with the Borg it makes no sense. In every single series that they have shown up it is shown that killing the Borg stops it. The Borg cannot regenerate. They need oxygen and energy like the rest of us (shown by the occurence of breathable atmosphere on Borg vessels).

The only times this really difereged was in First Contact (the movie) and the Enterprise episode. In both the borg is in an environment that will kill them yet they still live. Actually they even mess this up later on.

In First Contact: The borg are seen in space without any protective gear. They are seen having no problems at all. There is no air in space so what is keeping theirt human systems alive?

Then switch to the interior of the ship. It is shown that hitting the borgf with a few bullets kills them and their machine parts become useless.

Like in the end of the movie when all of the organic components are dissolved, the borg fall over dead and their mechanical parts cease to function.



Enterprise The borg are frozen for many years. Their bodies are evidentaly dead since flash freezing will not keep the body alive, just preserve it. They are even shown to be dead in the monitors. Yet somehow they are revived by the nanites.

Later on when tyhey are shot or have blunt force trauma put onto them they die for good.


So when does the borg really die? Only when the script lets them.

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Jul-11, 05:29 AM
I don't want to make excuses for the writers as I think they need to get their collective heads out of their word deleted and write something new and different for a change.



Please watch the language. Read the FAQ, linked from the top of the page.

captain swoop
2003-Jul-11, 07:57 AM
snip

So when does the borg really die? Only when the script lets them.

As Roger Rabbit says when asked if he could have taken his hand out of the cuffs at any time.

'No, only when it was funny!'

Humphrey
2003-Jul-11, 06:10 PM
Oh it gets worse!!!

From here (http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-07/11/11.00.tv):

"Enterprise Has New Course

TrekWeb has posted a report from a recent visit to the set of Enterprise which reveals some of the new directions the series will be taking in its third season. According to the site, new standing sets include a brig, a command center and the home planet of a mysterious new race of aliens called the "Xindi." Much of the details of the new aliens have been kept under wraps, but the site hinted that it observed "black-suited actors who will later be replaced, whole or in part, by interactive computer-generated characters."

Stars Connor Trinner and Scott Bakula were on hand to film scenes for the second episode of the season, entitled Anomaly. The actors had reportedly been up late the night before "shooting a water sequence" in a small chamber on a stage referred to by the cast and crew as "Planet Hell." Other details included "cryptic mentions of floating props [which] suggest that promises of toying with the laws of physics may begin to come true in this second episode.""

wedgebert
2003-Jul-11, 08:20 PM
Star Trek: Boldly going where no episode this season has gone before, and even more boldly rewriting the futures, histories, and physics of the universe.

Coming next week: Archer and Trip finally get fed up with those pesky laws of conservation of energy and matter. They spend a grueling twelve minutes building a device that can create energy and matter out of nothing.

Episode review: By the end of the episode the free matter/energy device becomes a mere toy for Porthos, who by spending 20 seconds on screen and having one line ("bark"), out acts the entire human cast and proves he knows more about the laws of physics than the entire writing staff. By the next episode the entire crew has forgotten about the device and seems to be stranded in space because they're suffering power losses.

Glom
2003-Jul-12, 06:01 PM
Here's a few things that could have made the series better.

Remember Trek history and call the organisation the United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA) formed from resources of many different scientific and military organisations. Don't be afraid to allow political opponents to comment on how it is easy to misread the acronym as Vespa.

Give Enterprise a course. We know quite a lot of what is in the local area. Have Enterprise go to known stars on a course that we can follow at home with our star atlases. It would give more of a sense of purpose if Enterprise was following a preplanned route with specific objectives at each stopping point. They could of course find other things on route between each star. And don't make it too easy to hop between them. Each star hop should be a full scale journey.

Show opposition to Enterprise. Obviously many lefties think resources should be directed at Earth based matters. Many righties may have a problem with the low-substance style of Enterprise. After all, a honkin' big ship told to go out and spend a little bit of time looking at loads of different things isn't as thought out as a program aimd at establishing research outposts at the exciting bits. Have some people saying that resources be going to a more integrated step-by-step program rather than one that just produces a pretty ship.

Show some of these opponents supporting the Vulcan position rather than the black and white version we get.

It has the potential to be a commentary on the state of today's space program. Many criticise the Space Shuttle because its objective is to be a big honkin' spacecraft and it doesn't really produce much for show.

Don't make Enterprise look like an Akira class starship. Make it look like something completely different. The idea being that as the show progresses, everyone begins developing a sickness. It is slow. It doesn't happen until they are a couple of years in and it take many months for them to realise that something is actually wrong because at first it seems so minor. It is caused by the damaging effect of this type of warp field. This warp field could also be inefficient, consuming much energy and perhaps could result in the rapid damage of the systems. No-one has seen it before because no ship has operated with such a high powered warp field for so long a time. It's a first.

Because of this, it is realised that future designs must use the traditional nacelles on pylons concept because only that kind of warp field, where the high flux density is situated behind and away from the mass of the ship will prevent these deliterious effects. You could say that the idea was explored by it was determined that Earth metallurgy was not up to level where such a design could work and only later on was the technology developed.

To add further complication, it could be found out that it's not just the shape of the warp field, but other things as well contributing in different ways to these negative effects.

It could even be discovered that there were concerns that these effects could result from this warp field, but because of the eagerness and impatience of Archer and others, they ignored what they thought were insignificant risks. This all adds fuel to Enterprise's Senator Kinsey and other opponents of the program.

Keep up the suspense that T'Pol is maybe a Vulcan spy, perhaps allowed on with the help of Enterprise opponents on Earth who agree with the Vulcan position. Don't allow Archer and Trip to trust T'Pol so easily and under no circumstances allow T'Pol to warm up to Archer more than simply tolerating her position. Make it clear that T'Pol is aware and supports the position of many Enterprise opponents on Earth. And she thinks that both the ship and the program are badly conceived. When it is revealed mid way through the series that the engine design is causing the health difficulties, let her have a field day with it. Of course, there is no reason to reveal all the problems at the same time.

Put her in a proper outfit and do away with the catsuits. Under no circumstances put her anywhere near the decon chamber and shoot anyone suggests that she go through the Pon Farr.

Make Archer a little less immature so we don't want to hit him, but rather allow a few redeeming qualities like a desire to see his life's work realised and his dedication to his ship to allow us to sympathise with him. But still keep in some of his obsessive firstmanship desires and impatience so that it adds reason behind why Enterprise was launched before its time with a ratty warp field and other problems. When he does stupid things, force him to live with some of those consequences and make him constantly have to face up to his critics on Earth and defend the program and the science they achieve.

After questioning her orders in front of the entire bridge crew for the umpteenth time, Tucker is taken into the ready room by T'Pol and given and summarily beaten up as a demonstration of the consequences of his insubordination. Have T'Pol slowly growing agree with Trip's brashness and Archer's egotism. At first, it's insignificant, but later she begins to notice she shouldn't be this emotional and it begins to point towards the health damage inflicted on the crew by the poor warp field.

In a ship that can't have a crew of more than fifty, show us a lot of the characters and give us a feel for the teamwork and conflict between them. Give us a small news crew onboard documenting this historic mission and allow them to annoy Archer with their consistant negative spin on things. Give us civilian scientists on board whose demands often get in the way of Archer's photo ops and annoys him thus and allow T'Pol to notice this eogtism. Have a senior engineer be an antagonist to Tucker, who is a bit how Dr. MacKay is to Major Carter. Don't break up the conflict between Tucker and Reed after the first episode. Allow Reed's demands to annoy Tucker and his militance to annoy the civilian scientists. He also has a field day when the inherent flaws of the engine design are discovered. Allow a proper human doctor to be an antagonist to the wacky ways of Phlox.

Under no circumstances allow Phlox to be in possession of Regulan Bloodworms or Tribbles.

Show us the limitations of the ship. Let any damage sustained have lasting effects, such that after repairs, it's never quite the same. Allow the crew to be concerned with consumables and conserving them so that there mission can last as long as possible. Don't make out the launching of shuttlepods to be like popping down to the shops in the car. Show that they require much in the way of consumables and thus various people like engineers and the sort become annoyed with Archer's frivalous use of them and allow their reports to UESPA to contribute to the cause of the proverbial Senator Kinsey. Have go-no-gos at every critical mission point.

Of course, all this is academic given that two seasons have already gone by and the third is now in production.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-12, 08:46 PM
Great post Glom!

I do not think t'pol should be the spy. I think that it should be one of the main charcters. One you will never really suspect. Then in one episode you get a small hint. The next episode you get a throw off hint to someone else, and finally at the season closure, you get a really big hint.

Let one of the people we have grown to love become our worst enemy.

Like Malcolm going mad due to the warp failure, or he really was all the time, but just gritting his teath and bearing everyone else. He will then become a ruthless militant psychotic.

Or have the ship more militarily controlled and have a mutiny of some sort.

[spelling]

man on the moon
2003-Jul-13, 07:47 AM
i said this once, but maybe not in this string i don't remember. anyway, maybe making the cardassians or romulans a sort of friend to the humans, then make something really bad happen so they become bitter enemies. like remus and romulus.

give enterprise a mission to find a planet suitable for an outpost, and maybe a deep space station or two. something specific, within a set of coordinates. or say within so many parsecs of a certain star system. they have to do a search and deal with various species to get their base.

you can't redo first contacts, but build up the story with the ferengi from season one. make them almost get away with murder so to speak, and the crew has to deal with losses from a lesson learned the hard way.

for once, let the captain be the captain. he alway starts out with one direction and T'pol seems to drag him around to the other side. the episode with the Vulcan ambassador being retrieved made me angry because Archer pretty much was a mouth piece for T'pol. she had no explanation for him and he just gave in to her. make him forceful. i didn't mind his deciding to go to the vulcans so much as just giving in to T'pol when she demanded him to. she isn't the captain. he is. :evil:

i admit, there are a lot of weak points, but i think (with a lot of work) much of the damage can be changed to work for the better. maybe have some of the things that have happened just completely unravel. throw the crew into chaos for three or four episodes. it seems the easiest way to rebuild something is to tear it down and start over. then make the captain the captain and start implementing the first suggestions of prime directive, temporal prime directive, etc.

and (as stated by others) DON'T screw with the future history! (future history? the history that's already been made? :-? )

Reed has already started making his suggestions for improving response time to threats. i especially liked "Reed Alert" :D could see it becoming "Red Alert". that is just one example...flesh out the whole season/story line with these hints of star fleet protocols and the basis for the federation beginning to form.

Humphrey
2003-Jul-26, 04:35 AM
from: http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2003-07/23/12.00.tv

"Producers and cast of UPN's Enterprise revealed details to SCI FI Wire about the show's coming seachange as it enters its third season, including new cast members, evolution of key characters and a dramatic new story arc. The series' new direction was set in motion in last season's finale, when a new alien threat—the Xindi—revealed themselves, and Enterprise set off into the dangerous Delphic Expanse to confront them.

"What you see are guys that have spent the entire hiatus trying to position the show and new scripts and new ideas, and they're rethinking everything," star Scott Bakula (Capt. Archer) said in an interview at UPN's fall press preview. "I'm saying to them every day, 'Think out of the box.' ... And they're saying, 'Let's do this.' And everybody is doing that. They spent all of their energy creating this new place. And now they're peopling it. And we're discovering it."

Executive producers Brannon Braga and Rick Berman and the cast revealed several key changes in interviews and during a press conference on July 22:
•The Enterprise crew will be joined by new characters, members of Military Assault Command Operations, or MACO. "They're kind of semi-recurring and will be used on certain away missions," Braga said. Those characters have yet to be cast.
•Archer will get a little darker, a bit more driven in his mission to stop the Xindi. "The idea of being the peaceful 'We-come-in-friendship' [guy], ... that guy is gone," Bakula said.
•T'Pol (Jolene Blalock) will no longer be under the control of the Vulcan High Command and will begin to explore emotions and humanity. She'll also get a new look: new hair, new costumes. "We've got color, and that's always exciting," Blalock said.
•Trip (Connor Trinneer) will grieve for his sister and struggle to balance a need for revenge with his sense of duty to Starfleet. Seeking help from T'Pol, he may find himself more intimately involved with her than ever before.
•The Temporal Cold War and the Suliban storyline will become an integral part of the Xindi arc later in the season, Berman said.

Enterprise returns to Wednesdays at 8 p.m. ET/PT, starting Sept. 10."


Well it seems that they are fuinally getting some smarts about them and making at least one beneficial change. They are brining back the temporal cold war and Archer actually gets a real mission in his head.

the quote from Bakula is interesting to me. Does it mean he did not like the direction it was going and he was trying to get B&B to actually get the show moving?

wedgebert
2003-Jul-26, 05:19 AM
Here's a question that just popped into my head as I re-read the bits about "how fast is impluse" stuff back on page three.

Anyone remember the episode of TNG where Tasha Yar had to fight to the death to win a cure for a plague that was killing millions on another planet.

Well, at the end when they have the cure and everything, Picard tells them to lay in a course for the infected planet and to engage at warp 3 or 4 (maybe 5).

If people are dying constantly (not implausable if it's a planet-wide plague like all ST plagues are), wouldn't you want to engage at max warp and try to save as many lives as possible?

Be like an ambulance going 5 under the speed limit, down a straight road, with no other cars around.

Glom
2003-Jul-26, 09:20 AM
Producers and cast of UPN's Enterprise revealed details to SCI FI Wire about the show's coming seachange as it enters its third season, including new cast members, evolution of key characters and a dramatic new story arc.

I guess we can consider this an admission of their inability to do the original plot properly. The series was supposed to be about pioneers, but because they did it badly, they've decided to change the plot. So much for the claims that the temporal cold war subplot had been mapped out from the beginning.


The Enterprise crew will be joined by new characters, members of Military Assault Command Operations, or MACO. "They're kind of semi-recurring and will be used on certain away missions," Braga said.

Finally they realise that the crew needs to be expanded beyond the title cast. Without anyone else, all you can do is put the main characters in jeopardy and that isn't going to be very convincing.

One more thing to Brannon "I'm so proud that I never watched Classic" Braga: The term 'away team' didn't come in until NextGen. Before then, they it was 'landing party'.


Archer will get a little darker, a bit more driven in his mission to stop the Xindi. "The idea of being the peaceful 'We-come-in-friendship' [guy], ... that guy is gone," Bakula said.

What 'We-come-in-friendship' guy? He would only come in friendship if it would give him a good photo opportunity. The rest of the time, he would pick a fight so he could look the hero.

Anyway, as long as Bakula stops hamming it up, it could work.


T'Pol (Jolene Blalock) will no longer be under the control of the Vulcan High Command and will begin to explore emotions and humanity.

She doesn't have any humanity. She's a Vulcan. If she resigned from the Vulcan military, that's no reason to start going Sybok on us. Even Spock, who was half human and somewhat un-Vulcan by joining Starfleet at a time when Vulcans didn't commonly do that thing, still took pride in his Vulcanity. T'Pol should still be Vulcan. It's probably just a ploy. Not that T'Pol has gone through the Pon Farr (where's the sick smilie when you need it), the Creators need to find some other way to get her to act seductive.


She'll also get a new look: new hair, new costumes. "We've got color, and that's always exciting," Blalock said.

Who wants to bet that this new costume is yet another catsuit but with a different colour?


Trip (Connor Trinneer) will grieve for his sister and struggle to balance a need for revenge with his sense of duty to Starfleet.

How long were they in spacedock getting refitted? How long did it take for them to reach the Delphic Expanse at the end of 'The Expanse'? He should have already grieved. I suppose this means he's going to be even more brash than usual, meaning we're going to want to slap him more than usual.


Seeking help from T'Pol, he may find himself more intimately involved with her than ever before.

Yep, it's all a ploy to get the two in bed together.


The Temporal Cold War and the Suliban storyline will become an integral part of the Xindi arc later in the season, Berman said.

We already know the Temporal Cold War subplot is related. Does this mean the first half of the season will be filled with the usual alien-of-the-week episodes?


Does it mean he did not like the direction it was going and he was trying to get B&B to actually get the show moving?

The problem was that it wasn't moving anywhere.

________________

Here are some questions:
Will this finally spell an end to the chronic use of the reset button?
Will this improve the use of canon to beyond inappropriate name-dropping?
Will this mean they'll stop trying to improve ratings by dumbing it down with superfluous eye candy? Maybe.
Doubtful.
It sounds like it but Braga is still in charge.

snowcelt
2003-Jul-27, 11:26 AM
Here's a question that just popped into my head as I re-read the bits about "how fast is impluse" stuff back on page three.

Anyone remember the episode of TNG where Tasha Yar had to fight to the death to win a cure for a plague that was killing millions on another planet.

Well, at the end when they have the cure and everything, Picard tells them to lay in a course for the infected planet and to engage at warp 3 or 4 (maybe 5).

If people are dying constantly (not implausable if it's a planet-wide plague like all ST plagues are), wouldn't you want to engage at max warp and try to save as many lives as possible?

Be like an ambulance going 5 under the speed limit, down a straight road, with no other cars around.

I have always had a problem with this seemingly, inconsistant choiseof speed picked by the commanders of warp drive ships. I think that the reason they went at only warp 3/4/5 is because the infected planet was rather close by. Kind of like driving to the 7/11 at 160kmh. I don't know! I guess one has to close one's mental eye and go with the flow :-?

daver
2003-Jul-28, 04:44 PM
I have always had a problem with this seemingly, inconsistant choiseof speed picked by the commanders of warp drive ships. I think that the reason they went at only warp 3/4/5 is because the infected planet was rather close by. Kind of like driving to the 7/11 at 160kmh. I don't know! I guess one has to close one's mental eye and go with the flow :-?

It would have been handy if someone had come up with a table--say, time to travel 10 l.y. at the various warp factors, so the writers would have some idea what they were writing about. But that would have required someone in the loop who actually cared.

Stuart
2003-Jul-28, 05:15 PM
Well it seems that they are fuinally getting some smarts about them and making at least one beneficial change. They are brining back the temporal cold war and Archer actually gets a real mission in his head. The quote from Bakula is interesting to me. Does it mean he did not like the direction it was going and he was trying to get B&B to actually get the show moving?

Nah. We've heard this all before. New directions new concepts new scripts. Said the same thing at the beginning of the last series and what do we get? Dr Phlox gets tribbles and T'pol gets into Ponn Far. It'll be the same this time. The only way Bakula could save the series is to gun down Berman and Braga. Otherwise its beyond hope; the whole thing should be shut down and left to marinate for a decade.

tracer
2003-Jul-28, 07:14 PM
Well, at the end when they have the cure and everything, Picard tells them to lay in a course for the infected planet and to engage at warp 3 or 4 (maybe 5).

If people are dying constantly (not implausable if it's a planet-wide plague like all ST plagues are), wouldn't you want to engage at max warp and try to save as many lives as possible?

Be like an ambulance going 5 under the speed limit, down a straight road, with no other cars around.
The TNG writers frequently ignored the warp speed formula (warp x = x^3.33333... times the speed of light). They just assumed that warp anything was automatically fast enough for quick interstellar travel.

For example, in the episode "Where Silence Has Lease", the Enterprise gets trapped in a huge void of darnkess many light-years across. They see an opening that could let them out of the void, 1.3 parsecs away. They head for the opening at Warp Two. In real life, it would take over 5 months travelling at Warp 2 to cross 1.3 parsecs of space, but they did it in a matter of minutes.

informant
2003-Jul-28, 07:33 PM
After seeing your reaction to The Shade's post, I don't think you guys will mind me posting this:
Rick Berman Takes Over Star Wars (http://www.filmjerk.com/nuke/article287.html). 8) :wink:

QuagmaPhage
2003-Jul-28, 07:54 PM
After seeing your reaction to The Shade's post, I don't think you guys will mind me posting this:
Rick Berman Takes Over Star Wars (http://www.filmjerk.com/nuke/article287.html). 8) :wink:

Did he do that because George Lucas Wanted to apply Dogme 95 rules to Episode III? (http://bbspot.com/News/2003/07/dogme_lucas.html) 8)



It would have been handy if someone had come up with a table--say, time to travel 10 l.y. at the various warp factors, so the writers would have some idea what they were writing about. But that would have required someone in the loop who actually cared.

They did. Maske such a table that is. I don't know about the caring. They changed the table for warp speeds when they developed TNG, so that could be an "excuse".

tracer
2003-Jul-29, 09:26 PM
This means that the modified Borg shuttle should have treated Enterprise Prime like an M1A1 would have treated a US Civil War cavalry charge. Bye Bye, Archer, it's been good to know you.
Now now, be honest -- an M1A1 Abrams tank would not be a very effective weapon against a 19th century cavalry charge. The tank's cannon isn't designed for rapid fire. It could get off 3, maybe 4 rounds of antipersonnel artillery, tops, before the rest of the cavalry rode right past it and ignored it. (Okay, the tank could probably machine-gun down a few of the cavaliers at short range when they rode past, but not many.) Then the tank would have to turn around and chase after all those horses. There are places a horse can go that a tank can't, y'know, and a shrewd cavalry commander would take advantage of that fact.

daver
2003-Jul-30, 05:49 PM
It would have been handy if someone had come up with a table--say, time to travel 10 l.y. at the various warp factors, so the writers would have some idea what they were writing about. But that would have required someone in the loop who actually cared.

They did. Maske such a table that is. I don't know about the caring. They changed the table for warp speeds when they developed TNG, so that could be an "excuse".

The had the formula (v = c * WF**3) in TOS, but nobody apparently cared to work out what it meant. If they had just said "interstellar distances are like distances within California, but with light years instead of miles. Instead of 10 miles between towns, it's 10 light years between inhabited planets. And here's how long it takes to travel 10 light years. The Federation is a rough sphere, about 100 l.y. in radius, containing roughly 1000 inhabitable systems. The third column in our table is the second column multiplied by 20--the time it takes to travel from one end of the Federation to the other."

They could add some columns for the time to travel to various other landmarks, like the center of the galaxy and Andromeda. They could have gone to Cal Tech and had someone print out a map of the galaxy, with various stars identified, and a small circle to represent Federation space.

Maybe they put together such a table for TNG; if so, obviously nobody paid attention.

tracer
2003-Jul-30, 06:19 PM
The had the formula (v = c * WF**3) in TOS, but nobody apparently cared to work out what it meant.
Actually, that formula was a retcon. No official warp speed formula existed while ST:TOS was under production. Only later did fans (particularly Franz Josef) come up with the "warp X = X^3 times the speed of light" formula as a way to have the Enterprise's interstellar voyages occur on a reasonable time scale.

johnwitts
2003-Aug-01, 11:19 PM
I am dismayed. All this hostility towards Enterprise. And from a bunch who are fans of Lord of the Rings!

Leave Enterprise alone. It's my favourite show at the moment.

I also think that Nenesis was a great movie, the best Star Trek movie so far, by a long way. So there.

tracer
2003-Aug-02, 04:32 PM
I am dismayed. All this hostility towards Enterprise. And from a bunch who are fans of Lord of the Rings!
Um ... maybe that's because The two Lord of the Rings movies that have hit the theaters so far are cinematic masterpieces that do a great justice to the seminal work of the prototypical fantasy author, and
Enterprise is a load of dingo's kidneys.

daver
2003-Aug-02, 10:29 PM
The had the formula (v = c * WF**3) in TOS, but nobody apparently cared to work out what it meant.
Actually, that formula was a retcon. No official warp speed formula existed while ST:TOS was under production. Only later did fans (particularly Franz Josef) come up with the "warp X = X^3 times the speed of light" formula as a way to have the Enterprise's interstellar voyages occur on a reasonable time scale.

The formula was in The Making of Star Trek (ack, i could be wrong--it could have been one of the Gerrold Star Trek books). I dunno, it could have been from one of the fan publications, but you'd think fans would know the distance to Andromeda (WF**3 doesn't match the numbers they gave in "By Any Other Name"; WF**4 is much closer). Frankly, if i were trying to concoct something, i'd have gone with a straight linear relationship or an exponential--powers are an awfully strange basis for a speed relationship. I might have been tempted to keep warp numbers integral and postulate that warp velocities are somehow quantized.

Geoff394
2003-Aug-03, 04:27 AM
The reason why the Star Trek shows have been going down hill since TNG can be summed up with one word: Viacom.

DataCable
2003-Aug-03, 11:42 AM
The formula was in The Making of Star Trek (ack, i could be wrong--it could have been one of the Gerrold Star Trek books). I dunno, it could have been from one of the fan publications...
No, you're right, it was originally published (AFAIK) in TMoST... well, sorta. Whitfield din't give the formula, just examples: "Warp Factor One is the speed of light. Warp Factor Three is 24 times the speed of light. [...] Warp Factor Six, or 216 times the speed of light,[...] Warp Factor Eight (512 times the speed of light)[...]"

That listing of 24c for WF3 (instead of 27c) is commonly considered to be a typo, since it doesn't fit the pattern of the other 3 examples, though I've seen it repeated in other publications (possibly one of the Giant Poster Books).

Glom
2003-Aug-03, 04:12 PM
I saw the last half of Cosmic Safari on Discovery Science today. It runs through all the different kinds of life we could find. There was silicon based plants, which because of silicon's low reactivity and strong bonding, are very still and slow. There was a planet where the only animal life that evolved was bird life because the ground was covered in a poison haze and only birds, flying between tall rock pillars could survive. It was even suggested that the rock pillars themselves were life of some sort. There was a solar system, home to an advanced race, who built a dyson sphere around their entire system to hold in the heat when their star died and they use huge stargates to travel around and because they depend so much on technology, they've evolved into cyborgs.

This stuff is the apex of brilliance and yet when it comes to seeing alien stuff on Enterprise, B&B go out of their way to make it seem as human as possible. Consider 'Strange New World', a generic title as their was nothing strange about it. It was made to be as Earth-like as possible. The most alien it got was with hallucinogenic pollen. Their seems to be a pattern. Stuff we see is made to feel as human as it can be. The exotic alien stuff, that is the interesting thing, is never shown. If there is exotic alien stuff, it happens off screen and we are merely told about it.

Discovery Science is going to repeat Cosmic Safari at 1900 BST.

darkhunter
2003-Aug-03, 05:36 PM
Budget+lack of imagination=


This stuff is the apex of brilliance and yet when it comes to seeing alien stuff on Enterprise, B&B go out of their way to make it seem as human as possible. Consider 'Strange New World', a generic title as their was nothing strange about it. It was made to be as Earth-like as possible. The most alien it got was with hallucinogenic pollen. Their seems to be a pattern. Stuff we see is made to feel as human as it can be. The exotic alien stuff, that is the interesting thing, is never shown. If there is exotic alien stuff, it happens off screen and we are merely told about it.


With a little imagination, and some knowledge of biology, you can get a wide range of alien life. Just take something we already have on Earth, scale it up, make it intellegent, and there you go--a new alien species.

With some imagination and knoledge of history, you can get a wide range of richly multicultural aliens. Take some existing or "dead" Earth cultures, modify them for interaction with a few more, throw in some slight variations withint them, and you've got a culturaly rich world.

Take these and you can get some good original shows--the crews reaction to a peaceful species, with much to offer the Federation. Their downfall: they have an unfortunate resemblence to cockroaches.

They run into a alien species with a many rich cultures. Maybe theres a "Cold War" going on to lend an element of conflict--but as a whole, they a considered "primitive" by for the purpose of the prime directive. Of course, the Enterprise picks sides to help, and the aliens they side with proceed to wipe out the other side...this would lead to the Formulation of the Prime Directive, Archer would be quietly retired, and the incedent, of course, labeled Top Secret and forgotten (Rember: the Federation can do no wrong)

Or an alien species (what evermodel you want to base them all) with one culture thats full ready to join the Federation, and a "Third World" culture that the Prime directive prohibits contact with (of course this has to happen later on in the series when they formulate a prime directive)--what do they do?

Could go on for hours at this....

johnwitts
2003-Aug-03, 11:14 PM
It's still my favourite Star Trek series...

captain swoop
2003-Aug-05, 08:03 AM
I am dismayed. All this hostility towards Enterprise. And from a bunch who are fans of Lord of the Rings!
Um ... maybe that's because The two Lord of the Rings movies that have hit the theaters so far are cinematic masterpieces that do a great justice to the seminal work of the prototypical fantasy author, and
Enterprise is a load of dingo's kidneys.

fetid ones at that!

captain swoop
2003-Aug-05, 08:08 AM
snip

With some imagination and knoledge of history, you can get a wide range of richly multicultural aliens. Take some existing or "dead" Earth cultures, modify them for interaction with a few more, throw in some slight variations withint them, and you've got a culturaly rich world.

snip



Like SG1 you mean?

Krel
2003-Aug-05, 06:34 PM
snip

With some imagination and knoledge of history, you can get a wide range of richly multicultural aliens. Take some existing or "dead" Earth cultures, modify them for interaction with a few more, throw in some slight variations withint them, and you've got a culturaly rich world.

snip



Like SG1 you mean?

Also like the original Star Trek. Somewhere over the decades something was lost.

David.

darkhunter
2003-Aug-05, 06:44 PM
snip

With some imagination and knoledge of history, you can get a wide range of richly multicultural aliens. Take some existing or "dead" Earth cultures, modify them for interaction with a few more, throw in some slight variations withint them, and you've got a culturaly rich world.

snip



Like SG1 you mean?

Also like the original Star Trek. Somewhere over the decades something was lost.

David.

Unfortunately, never got much change to watch the original series, but have read a few of the books. Only ever seen the movie for Stargate and parts of a couple of episodes....

We are victims of the success of the original series--people watched the new series because they were Star Trek, not because of the writing...

Glom
2003-Aug-18, 08:53 PM
Consider:


ACT ONE

INT.ARCHER'S READY ROOM

Archer and Trip are consulting a star chart.

TRIP: Maybe it's just me, but it seems like these Vulcan star charts take all the fun out of it. We're supposed to be explorers, aren't we?

ARCHER: That's the general idea.

TRIP: Where's the exploration in going places people have already been?

ARCHER: Well, for one thing, we've never been to these places. For another, remember that protostar we ran across last week?

TRIP: Yeah.

ARCHER: I'm not seeing it here.

First, the BA. This is 'The Andorian Incident', released on Volume 1.4 in Britain out of thirteen volumes for season one, when in 'Two Days and Two Nights', Sol was described as being between 90 and 100 ly away. At this point, considering 'Silent Enemy' they should be no further than about 40 ly. A protostar closer than 40ly apparently goes undetected, despite almost two hundred years of ever advancing IR astronomy. Especially with this special mission, half the IR telescopes on Earth should be pointed towards Enterprise's course.

Second, the two of them are stupid.

"take all the fun out of it."

Again with the fun. Trip makes it sound as though it's some kind of outing. Where's the sense of a job to do? A mission to be carried out? He seems to view it like some kind of game.

"we've never been to these places."

That screams tourist. Confirming their behaviour in 'Strange New World', the crew of Enterprise are out here to play tourist. No scientists, no explorers, it's a coach tour. He makes it sound like he was going to visit the Eiffel Tower.

"remember that protostar we ran across last week?"

Ran across? Ran across? Is that all it means to him? They... ran across... a protostar that mysteriously escaped the IR telescopes for two hundred years. This is a big deal, a week later, they're on their merry way, thinking not much of it. The most important thing about the discovery to Archer was that he got to show up the Vulcans. What's the point in being "explorers" if they're going to take every encounter so casually?

Damn, Archer needs court martialled!

TimH
2003-Aug-19, 05:19 PM
Consider:

[quote='The Andorian Incident']ACT ONE

INT.ARCHER'S READY ROOM

Archer and Trip are consulting a star chart.

TRIP: Maybe it's just me, but it seems like these Vulcan star charts take all the fun out of it. We're supposed to be explorers, aren't we?

""take all the fun out of it."

Again with the fun. Trip makes it sound as though it's some kind of outing. Where's the sense of a job to do? A mission to be carried out? He seems to view it like some kind of game.

<snip>


I think I miss understood you, Glom. Do you mean if you 'have fun' you aren't working or you have no sense of duty if you enjoy your job? If someone likes their jobs and have a sense of accomplishment (ie had fun) at the end of the day, they didn't do anything special? Or even worse, didn't have a sense of duty/responsibiltiy?

I think that's a touch harsh isn' it?

On another matter, it seems like Enterprise causes actual physical pain when you watch (and as a TNG/DS9 fan I feel your pain) so why do you keep watching? Remember that old joke:

Patient: Doc, it hurts every time I do this (patien raises hand over head).
Doc: Then, don't do that...

I tune in on ocassion and can sometimes tolerate things but I keep two things in mind.

1) There is a slim chance that this willl turn out to be a Q induced nightmare and sometime soon Picard or Sisko will wake up screaming

2) (I know some will strongly disagree) T'Pol is cute. I admit she generally does nothing for plot development and her sole purpose is eye candy for single guys, but I'm a single guy... ;

wedgebert
2003-Aug-19, 05:43 PM
Real Life Comics (http://www.reallifecomics.com/daily.php?strip_id=1003)

Glom
2003-Aug-19, 06:28 PM
I think I miss understood you, Glom. Do you mean if you 'have fun' you aren't working or you have no sense of duty if you enjoy your job?

Obviously not. It is difficult to make the distinction, I admit.

It links back to 'Strange New World'.


TRIP: You expect us to sit up here for a week while probes have all the fun.

If Trip was someone who was having fun doing a professional job, he wouldn't say something like this. Orbital survey and use of probes are a completely sound first step to a planetary survey (which should have already been worked out but Starfleet is full of idiots and hence they gave Enterprise no plan whatsoever). Yet, Trip wants to forgo what is professional and get on launch a landing party so he can run around in the countryside. He never came across in that episode as someone who was a professional scientist or explorer. More like an overgrown teenager who viewed it as a high school outing.

His reference to "fun" again in 'The Andorian Incident' does not therefore bode well.

Consider also the context. He doesn't consider it worthy to "go places other people have been". If he were a professional scientist, he would have fun participating in the specific research the ship did at the various destinations.

The context of "fun" in 'The Andorian Incident', coupled with the context of "fun" in 'Strange New World', makes Trip look like someone not interested in doing a professional job of scientific research, but in doing things because they are superficially "fun".