View Full Version : When is a political issue politics?

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-12, 06:58 AM
Can one reasonably discuss big political issues without invoking politics.

This may result in a ban for me but I accept that as I believe an intellectual forum is the only place where the big issues can be debated fairly.

As we strive for the stars and try to get people to become more than they are and perhaps more than they ever dreamed they could be is the science of the future. Is it not just as important to document the science of the past and follow it up vigorously.

It will cause pain but history with euphemism is a lie and lets humanity conveniently forget the real path to the present. Even more damagingly if we allow it to brush over the damage of the inconvenient past that certain events maybe as recent as 100 years ago have caused, then who is accountable if those events are still causing damage.

I will start with a big issue 'slavery' as it was a part of my countries history, a history that I was not taught about in school and that happened here in Australia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Island_Labourers_Act_1901) . Maybe this was just "embarrassing" but the fact is I still needed to be taught "that this is what we did" and especially as this is still having big impacts even today on the nations where these people were stolen from.

The anecdotal evidence of the descendants of this slavery is fast disappearing as they get so much older and very little effort is being made to follow it up before even that is gone. In a rush to rid our country of slavery for federation these people were forcibly repatriated (strewth now I am using euphemisms, we kicked them out).

Some stories are that they were taken home, some that they got as far as the first land fall and there are stories that the slaves were just paid for on the way out and the slaves dumped at sea so the ships could make extra runs for more profit.

I think we should know what happened from a scientific historical point of view. I do not want future generations shaking their heads saying if we had just told them of the terrible pain our actions caused then they too would not have done the same thing.

This is why I say without invoking politics as it is something that is avoided big time by political groups that may have too much self interest and may have too much to loose if one was to try to ask this question on their forums.

I will say I was highly impressed by the quality and decorum of the debate on the other moral topic that ran so long here as there is no forum I know of that could have hosted a debate of that intensity and calibre of thought and most likely not in the forums set exclusively for that group of followers. I would really like to be proved wrong and hear if self interest groups can really have a genuine discussion on the big issues, right or wrong. Not have them here but just list them to see "have evidence that they exist".

If forums devoted to issues can't be accountable then the intellectual elite is all that there is left to guide us to the stars and to ensure we don't just destroy what efforts right and wrong that it took to get us there.

As ever I believe we can only look to the scientific elite to show leadership.

And just to be sure I am non sided I firmly believe politics is not in the business of solving problems because they act as caretakers only prepared to manage them. As caretakers only I get very offended by these parties when they think their election is ownership with the endorsed right to sell off the hard work of our ancestors good and bad for short term gain when it should be directed at making great progress to platforms that future generations can build on. Worst yet if they had no problems to manage then they would invent them.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-12, 10:30 AM
I want to keep this purely to a discussion of issues with political implications and NOT definitely NOT discuss politics.

I will use this issue as an example:-

The drug issue

Fortunately for us this really is not a political issue as there are many very clever people in charge of all levels of its distribution and supply. Its not like one can manage the most successful pyramid industry the world has ever known and not have an excellent idea of how to run a business.

The option is to continue to let it grow so that in less than 20 years drug users are the voting majority and make it legal. It is not the result that a business that operates best outside of the law desires and so would be an employer of the best accountants and bean counters to best manage and stabilise the growth of drugs to keep it at sustainable levels.

End result the drug market achieves optimum performance with around 1 in 4 people with an addictive habit supported by the other 3. This means funds are drawn from the whole community and at the point of stability which can't be too far off now the normal business efficiencies are applied.

Optimised production and control of harvest quality and quantity. Managing distribution network and finding efficiencies. Optimising the number of business civil and political contacts required to maintain a clear supply line. As it is already outside the law the normal reservations of business protocol don't apply, meaning they can be as ruthlessly efficient as it takes.

In the end it is about 20 Rolls Royce one year none the next verses a steady supply of 12 a year and 15 in a really efficient year. It is not a political issue and quite frankly never was nor ever is going to be one.

2007-Jun-12, 11:14 AM
I moved this from Q&A to OTB, since it is not about Astronomy or Spaceflight.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-13, 07:08 AM
Ah good this topic is still open even better it babbling so to have a bit of fun.

All right hypothetically the end of the world.
Please no religious stuff you won alright.

In fact there will be enough to do, it is one thing to prepare people for the end for 2000 years but a management disaster for when it happens.

In the Red Dwarf style:
"Sirs do you think we should go from blue alert to red alert" Kryton.
"I'm thinkin' you should take it all the way up to brown alert" Cat
"I'm not exactly sure we have a brown alert Mr Cat in fact I don't believe it exists" Kryton
"Oh it exists alright" Cat
"What would a brown alert indicate anyway, what would we look for" Kryton
"Well let's just say you will know what it is when you are washing the underwear" Cat

It would be a managerial nightmare, plenty of happy swaying saved (yeah right) it was all good until it happened and now the practical thing is how to handle it.

First group are those who are happy and the established groups can help with that and any late converters, easy fixed, they are prepared right, right.

Second Those who will inherit the earth, (humour :) this is for genuine political discussion only please) only in that the desire by the people in some human areas to score a few last punches. I think you could nicely count on the established (appropriate word?) organisations and other new self help groups forming to help cool some hot heads. It ain't worth inheritin' if it is nuked!!!

Good the tricky bit out of the way.

Accounting and record preservation and allocating useful tasks to the population.

Third the other establishments scientific, military, political and business need to have a contingency plan. Stay calm deny this is the end (this is for population control purposes only) and dig up some person who is absolutely convinced this is all as it should be. The name Nancy comes to mind.

Fourth get to her first and keep the baying hounds of the media off. I read the transcript (chuckle) you all take a little lie down then get up again and remember to sedate the livestock. A pretty voice of calm or at least get a well respected actor, whatever. Just don't use an Uzi or Jones town approach.

Fifth run the people around, a lot. People who have time on their hands cause trouble. People will still cause trouble but if building solid rock shelters high up and deep down ( to avoid the 'rays') won't be hindering the 'rescue effort'. Preserving the information to restart would be good, just the stuff you really want. It is a great way to get the kids off the computer for a bit of exercise and the Internet needed a cleanup anyway.

Anyone else with a few political light hearted helpers here, (remember no politics) no taking sides lets not take any moral baggage, ah I do have one rename the 'Doomsday Vault' to something euphamistically nice. Could we run a few names on that? :)

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-13, 07:16 AM
Could I get a Mod to delete the double posts please my computer hates me and I will be really happy to see it off. :)

2007-Jun-13, 07:43 AM
You can do it yourself in Edit mode (be sure to check all relevant boxes).

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-13, 09:08 AM
You can do it yourself in Edit mode (be sure to check all relevant boxes).

I tried eight times overall. If I talk about machines I will get a suspension for sure. Again thanks I was going to give up. :)

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-13, 02:06 PM
A final thought all branches of scientific endeavour wish to stand independently it must convene its own science regulator be the arbiter and boundary setter of that which constitutes good science.

Until science can set its own boundaries and be fully accountable for its actions and that of all of its members it will continue to operate under restriction of political and other interests.

Perhaps it is up to soap opera and Hollywood to carry the burden of our collective moral responsibility for now.

As this would appear to be yet another of my long and rambling threads that can't attract and probably shouldn't attract attention perhaps it should be closed.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-13, 02:43 PM
I know the last post looks like sour grapes.

It is not meant to be.

In today's world there is no other organisation with the open co-operation that exists in the scientific community. It has the highest level of individual secrecy second only to the military presumably.

For future planning and managing the most efficient level of scientific endeavour to be achieved the whole of science would need funding as a set proportion of world GDP so that it can set its own agenda.

If in 100 generations we have not advanced as far beyond our present level of homo sapiens sapiens in mental and physical development as we have come since the time of the australopithecus, then we have failed.

It won't be an overnight change obviously, but until there is a recognised forum that speaks the clear and beautiful language of progress in intellectual achievement then we are stuck at directionless crawl instead of well directed running.

This assumes the various other organisations of the world don't pull the rug out first. There really is only one area that is planning the development of the whole of humanity and not just preserving tradition or managing, complicating or purely seeking to extract money from it.

2007-Jun-13, 05:26 PM
Does anyone here know of an online forum where they talk about political issues in a civil, rational manner, like the scientific discussions that are normally found here?

Captain Kidd
2007-Jun-13, 05:39 PM
Is that even possible or would the universe end? I don't think politics or religion can ever be discussed rationally for more than a second. Heck, I get in arguments with myself over this stuff. ;)

If there's anything we'll have in common with any possible alien species, it'll be the lack of being able to talk about politics and/or religion civilly.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jun-14, 06:24 AM
This is why I think this forum is no unique.

I may be wrong but to the best of my knowledge the universe hasn't ended yet.

This is a link link (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=5527) to the auto politic finder current so far, it brought up a similar thread and that was very well handled.

There is hope yet and so this pretty little ditty ditty (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=48888&page=4) may not quite be entirely correct, but it is good all the same.