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rebel
2007-Jun-14, 02:09 AM
I would like to prove that the natural phenomena of gravity is all around us in different forms of natural phenomena. By comparing other natural occurring phenomena, gravity can be showed to be a push by a greater force to a lower force.

When you put a piece of styrofoam down under the water, what happens.....

Well to explain this phenomena, an understanding of water densities and water pressure is necessary. Basically, the water on the bottom is compressed by the water on top. This causes the water on bottom to be more dense than the water on top. Thus the deeper we go, the more psi there is (the greater the force). This means that the greater force of water pushes the styrofoam toward a weaker force and..... the styrofoam floats on top of the water.

This same process of different densities is called displacement, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Displacement_&#37;28vector%29 . If you look at the position vs. time graph on the site disclosed, you can see that displacement causes motion and velocity.

So as you can see, without any theories, the natural phenomena of gravity can be explained as a push to a weaker force. And if you don't like the last example there is a whole slue of natural phenomena that show that a stronger force always pushes toward a weaker one, and that gravity is a push from a stronger force to a weaker one.

Once you get past all the theories that confuse the mainstream, the creation of the universe isn't as difficult as some would have you believe. Then the proper predictions can be made using natural phenomena.

In this thread no theories can be used, not mine, not yours, and especially not Einsteins.....

Jens
2007-Jun-14, 02:21 AM
I would like to prove that the natural phenomena of gravity is all around us in different forms of natural phenomena. By comparing other natural occurring phenomena, gravity can be showed to be a push by a greater force to a lower force.
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Sorry, Rebel, but that's a theory!

JustAFriend
2007-Jun-14, 02:45 AM
Explaining Gravity Without Using Any Theories:

The Universe Sucks.

(you may leave my prize money in a brown paper bag by the lockers in the bus station...)

Van Rijn
2007-Jun-14, 03:34 AM
I would like to prove that the natural phenomena of gravity is all around us in different forms of natural phenomena. By comparing other natural occurring phenomena, gravity can be showed to be a push by a greater force to a lower force.

Isn't this the third or fourth time you've repeated this idea?

So as you can see, without any theories, the natural phenomena of gravity can be explained as a push to a weaker force.
[snip]
In this thread no theories can be used, not mine, not yours, and especially not Einsteins.....

Okay, fine. Show how you would accurately model the motion of the planets, including Mercury.

Tensor
2007-Jun-14, 04:37 AM
Sorry, Rebel, but that's a theory!

Actually, not it's not. What it is, is a conjecture or hypothesis, with no evidence to back it up. Analogies, per se, are not supporting evidence.

sirius0
2007-Jun-14, 05:17 AM
Your water analogy only works because of gravity so it is too circular for my taste. Do you have another?

Occam
2007-Jun-14, 05:54 AM
Would it be against this forum's rules to say that this is a ridiculous notion, based upon ignorance and made all the more untenable by further ignorance of the principles of the phenomena being used as an example?

czeslaw
2007-Jun-14, 06:21 AM
Most physics agree the gravity is a curvature of the space and it causes the attractive force.
The accelerating force is a resultant force , of course.
It is like the virtual particles mediating the EM attractive and repelling force.
Everything in quantum level is according to probability of the wave function.
a good link - http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quan..._particles.html

Grey
2007-Jun-14, 02:48 PM
First, as Jens points out, what you're proposing is a theory (or as Tensor more accurately suggests, a conjecture or hypothesis). You simply can't explain the mechanism behind some observation without using a theory, because that's just what a theory is.

When you put a piece of styrofoam down under the water, what happens.....

Well to explain this phenomena, an understanding of water densities and water pressure is necessary. Basically, the water on the bottom is compressed by the water on top. This causes the water on bottom to be more dense than the water on top. Thus the deeper we go, the more psi there is (the greater the force). This means that the greater force of water pushes the styrofoam toward a weaker force and..... the styrofoam floats on top of the water.Second, there are a host of problems with this idea. The water on top only compresses the water on the bottom because of gravity in the first place, so that compression cannot be the source of gravity. And what if I instead put a piece of iron in the water? It sinks, moving from the region of lower pressure to the region of higher pressure, exactly the opposite of what you suggest gravity should do.

Jim
2007-Jun-14, 02:59 PM
... So as you can see, without any theories, the natural phenomena of gravity can be explained ...

Once you get past all the theories ... Then the proper predictions can be made using natural phenomena.

In this thread no theories can be used, not mine, not yours, and especially not Einsteins.....

As has been pointed out, theories are explanations and make predictions. I don't think you will be able to meet the intended purpose of this thread.

I'm inclined to close it. Can you persuade me otherwise?

John Mendenhall
2007-Jun-14, 04:24 PM
As has been pointed out, theories are explanations and make predictions. I don't think you will be able to meet the intended purpose of this thread.

I'm inclined to close it. Can you persuade me otherwise?

Don't just close it, shoot it.

2007-Jun-14, 07:24 PM
so i guess black holes are actually the least dense objects in the universe?
but what about all the stuff that is "pushed" into a black hole? would that not eventually make it really dense, and thus cause everything to then be pushed back out to the less dense space surrounding it?

Celestial Mechanic
2007-Jun-14, 07:49 PM
[Snip!] So as you can see, without any theories, the natural phenomena of gravity can be explained as a push to a weaker force. And if you don't like the last example there is a whole slew of natural phenomena that show that a stronger force always pushes toward a weaker one, and that gravity is a push from a stronger force to a weaker one.
So where do your "stronger" and "weaker" forces come from? What are your definitions of "natural phenomena" and "theories"? How can I tell what is a "natural phenomenon" and what is a "theory"?

Once you get past all the theories that confuse the mainstream, the creation of the universe isn't as difficult as some would have you believe. Then the proper predictions can be made using natural phenomena.
I'm afraid that the "confusion" is all yours. I suggest that you get thee to a library and read up on just what "natural phenomena" are out there, of which gravity is just one.

In this thread no theories can be used, not mine, not yours, and especially not Einstein's.....
As you can see, this last statement of yours is what is drawing most of the fire in this thread. This "requirement" of yours is quite meaningless. It's like asking for a musicological discussion of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony while forbidding quoting of any music samples or notation.

BTW, you don't have some animus against Einstein, do you? Why don't you read up a bit on general relativity and then you will be in a better position to discuss gravity.

Occam
2007-Jun-14, 09:24 PM
Don't just close it, shoot it.
Make it a gut wound

sirius0
2007-Jun-15, 02:57 AM
Maybe this thread can be evolved?
Perhaps the no theories criteria of the OP can be softened to no eplanation that goes beyond what can be percieved by the 6 senses most of us have.
Then we can demonstrate how the usual model is really an extension of this.

(The sixth sense in this post represents 'common sense' or intellect.)

Perhaps this thread could be a place to put all the mythconceptions that we all commonly come across with those who perhaps should but don't know what gravity isn't.

For example it isn't pressure. Though the reactive forces often produce it.

I still run in to the occaisional engineer that thinks gravity is due to air pressure!! What have you others come across?

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jun-15, 03:56 AM
I still run in to the occaisional engineer that thinks gravity is due to air pressure!! What have you others come across?

No, never have.

What college did they go to? Or for that matter, what high school did they go to? :confused:

Nereid
2007-Jun-15, 04:15 AM
... So as you can see, without any theories, the natural phenomena of gravity can be explained ...

Once you get past all the theories ... Then the proper predictions can be made using natural phenomena.

In this thread no theories can be used, not mine, not yours, and especially not Einsteins.....As has been pointed out, theories are explanations and make predictions. I don't think you will be able to meet the intended purpose of this thread.

I'm inclined to close it. Can you persuade me otherwise?Please send Jim, or another mod, a PM with that persuasion.

In the meantime, thread closed.