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View Full Version : "Why can't people just tell the truth?!"



sarongsong
2007-Jul-01, 02:32 PM
A reverberating universal plaint, recently overheard at a local lunch counter, in this instance aimed at a frustrated someone's (absent) significant other.
July 1, 2007
...all children try to mislead their parents at some time. Yet it now appears that...infants begin to lie from as young as six months. Simple fibs help to train them for more complex deceptions in later life...
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/07/01/scibaby101.xml)

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 02:51 PM
A reverberating universal plaint, recently overheard at a local lunch counter, in this instance aimed at a frustrated someone's (absent) significant other.


How can a non-verbal infant tell a lie???

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 02:55 PM
How can a non-verbal infant tell a lie???

It's just one study. As always, take it with a grain of salt until the results are duplicated (although in this case I think it's nonsense, it's based on second- and third-party interpretations of babies' actions. Reliability factor is way low here).

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 03:00 PM
On the other hand, telling the truth all the time is not good either. I'm talking about the little "white lies" that everyone says every day. At work, if I told the truth about everything I wouldn't keep my job long. :)

sarongsong
2007-Jul-01, 03:11 PM
How can a non-verbal infant...Non-verbal perhaps, but assuredly non-silent!. :)

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 04:09 PM
It's just one study. As always, take it with a grain of salt until the results are duplicated (although in this case I think it's nonsense, it based on second- and third-party interpretations of babies' actions. Reliability factor is way low here).


I agree. There are some tests, such as the Fagan Test of infant intelligence (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Psychological_Testing), which are fairly reliable. However, I have not heard of a test that is able to reliably detect prevarication in either adults or infants.

JohnD
2007-Jul-01, 04:42 PM
How can a non-verbal infant tell a lie???

Paracelsus, do you have children?
I think Sarongsong does!

Scenario: late night, baby crying franticly, worried parent gets up and goes to baby, thinking something wrong - colic, soiled nappy etc.
Picks up baby - baby smiles and snuggles.

Baby was lying - they were not distressed, just wanted company.

People lie because they get something out of it.
If they are discovered to lie they may still get something - do you put your now snoozing baby back to bed? No, they'll cry again, until you harden your heart or they get a old enough to understand more.

John

Delvo
2007-Jul-01, 04:49 PM
On the other hand, telling the truth all the time is not good either.That's the standard excuse liars give, but it's not even true in itself.


I'm talking about the little "white lies" that everyone says every day.First excuses, then false accusations. Wow. :rolleyes:


At work, if I told the truth about everything I wouldn't keep my job long. :)Notice the disclaimer you just built in there: "about everything". Truths that you don't want to tell don't need to be replaced with something else. They can just be left unsaid.


Scenario: late night, baby crying franticly, worried parent gets up and goes to baby, thinking something wrong - colic, soiled nappy etc.
Picks up baby - baby smiles and snuggles.

Baby was lying - they were not distressed, just wanted company....or was distressed BECAUSE of being alone.

R.A.F.
2007-Jul-01, 04:50 PM
Baby was lying - they were not distressed, just wanted company.

An infant can very easily become "distressed" when seeking "company".

How is that lying??

edit to add...I see delvo beat me to it. :)

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 04:59 PM
Notice the disclaimer you just built in there: "about everything". Truths that you don't want to tell don't need to be replaced with something else. They can just be left unsaid.

Lying by omission is a form of lying, if you know the other person is going to draw a conclusion based on incomplete information.

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 05:05 PM
That's the standard excuse liars give, but it's not even true in itself.

First excuses, then false accusations. Wow. :rolleyes:

Notice the disclaimer you just built in there: "about everything". Truths that you don't want to tell don't need to be replaced with something else. They can just be left unsaid.

...or was distressed BECAUSE of being alone.

Wow Delvo, you just called me a liar - indirectly maybe - but you did.

I'm talking about little white lies here - nothing that matters - mainly to keep from hurting someone's feelings. Like responding to someone who asked you "How do you like my haircut?" when it really looks like hell. Say nothing? That's a whole lot worse than saying something innocuous. Oh, I guess you could be honest and phrase it where it sounded like a compliment but really wasn't - I guess that's what you would do. Or more likely, you would just blurt out the truth.

So, Delvo, I assume you've never lied in your entire life. Even about something harmless to keep from hurting someone's feelings. Right. :rolleyes:

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 05:09 PM
Or more likely, you would just blurt out the truth.


I usually just blurt out the truth. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask for it!

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 05:12 PM
I usually just blurt out the truth. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask for it!

Have you ever worked with other people? Do you have any friends?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 05:15 PM
Have you ever worked with other people? Do you have any friends?

1) Briefly.

2) Not many, but the ones I have aren't hurt by honesty!

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 05:24 PM
1) Briefly.

2) Not many, but the ones I have aren't hurt by honesty!

Why does your answer to number (1) not surprise me?

I have to believe that the real answer to number (2) is "Yes. But the few friends I have are as cruel to others, via their brutal honesty, as I am - that's why they're my friends." :lol:

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 05:32 PM
Why does your answer to number (1) not surprise me?

I have to believe that the real answer to number (2) is "Yes. But the few friends I have are as cruel to others, via their brutal honesty, as I am - that's why they're my friends."

It's not cruel. Brutal, maybe but not cruel. Cruel would be saying it whether or not you ask me.

And no, they're just thick-skinned, or tolerant of my quirks.


Hey, it's all part of the Wonderful World of Asperger's Syndrome.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 05:46 PM
Paracelsus, do you have children?
I think Sarongsong does!

Scenario: late night, baby crying franticly, worried parent gets up and goes to baby, thinking something wrong - colic, soiled nappy etc.
Picks up baby - baby smiles and snuggles.

Baby was lying - they were not distressed, just wanted company.

People lie because they get something out of it.
If they are discovered to lie they may still get something - do you put your now snoozing baby back to bed? No, they'll cry again, until you harden your heart or they get a old enough to understand more.

John

I don't think the kid was 'lying' in that case, as the baby wasn't stating a reason for crying. Crying for company would sound the same to a sleep-deprived parent as crying due to a soiled diaper, I should think; no deception on the infant's part required! ;)

R.A.F. said this already, basically.

But, you are correct, John D; I don't have kids. :)

I do have a very whiny dog, however, and I know for a fact that she can be deceptive! :shifty:

Gillianren
2007-Jul-01, 05:57 PM
An infant can very easily become "distressed" when seeking "company".

How is that lying??

edit to add...I see delvo beat me to it. :)

Me, too; heck, adults can get distressed while seeking company, but we're not supposed to make a fuss about it.

I also have a policy that I won't lie if you ask for my opinion of something. I do understand that "little white lies" help people get by in life, but it's far too easy for me to start lying and not so easy for me to stop, and I don't like lying. It's pretty unusual for someone with my condition, but I don't.

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 06:08 PM
If you work at home or stay home and don't work at all, it's probably very easy to refrain from telling "little" white lies - and I mean small meaningless responses to questions that have no consequence. Just like it's easy to be a "saint" if you live up on top of a mountain away from the human race. Come out in the real world and see how far you get with "brutal honesty". Out in the world you have to use diplomacy. Besides, telling someone that their hair looks awful is just an opinion anyway - it may not even be "true".

And let's not let this thread devolve into the meaning of truth. :whistle:

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 06:11 PM
Come out in the real world and see how far you get with "brutal honesty". Out in the world you have to use diplomacy.

If I could do that, I wouldn't have Asperger's syndrome.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-01, 08:05 PM
Okay; two personal real-life scenarios:
1) Two weeks ago, I purchased a non-running used vehicle (1965 Travelall ;)) that was no longer in the Department of Vehicles database because it had not been registered for 15 years. Anyone who's dealt with the California DMV knows they are sticklers for details. Seller could produce NO paperwork, signed a Bill of Sale and 'promised' to sign any further forms DMV would deem necessary to get it into my name, all the while 'looking for' supposed existing out-of-date prior forms that were 'somewhere' in his files. Several phone calls later, he said he would call to verify when I could come by and get the new necessary DMV forms signed. No call. Stopped by to discover a note on front door:
Owner home sick---do not ring bell.His phone had been disconnected. As I'd started paperwork with DMV upon purchase, penalty fees begin tomorrow for not completing all forms by then, so will throw myself at their mercy with the above story and hope for the best.
2) 12-year 'friend' (400 miles away) borrows $600, turns off phone and reneges on 'promise' to repay, despite several "The check is in the mail" proclamations before the phone turn-off.
The world's gone crazy!

Delvo
2007-Jul-01, 08:55 PM
If you work at home or stay home and don't work at all, it's probably very easy to refrain from telling "little" white lies... Come out in the real world and see how far you get with "brutal honesty".The picture you paint just isn't how the world really works. Instead of listening while you accuse the honest of being recluses or failures, I could just as easily say the opposite, that it's the liars who must be those things... but that would just be personal sniping and insult-lobbing if I did so, just as it is when you do so. And merely trying to put other people down isn't really making a point. We'd just be bouncing them back and forth at each other and getting nowhere.

So, a different approach... You gave a specific example of when lying is good according to you and asked how an honest person would handle it. It seemed that you couldn't imagine any possible good effects from telling truth in such a case. So I'll answer the question and inform you of that which you seemed unaware of and unable to imagine. If I were asked about a haircut I didn't like, I'd say I didn't like it. (If one thinks that's going to be a "blow", one can soften it by comparing it to another hairstyle the same person's had that was better or something like that, but the basic answer is still "I don't like it".) And whatever social disaster you seem to think must happen doesn't happen. On comparable occasions, I've sometimes been thanked, sometimes gotten a bit of a surprised chuckle, sometimes been asked for subsequent advice on the subject (such as what would improve the hair), sometimes seen changes for the better based on the help, sometimes had my suggestion ignored when the other person decided it was fine anyway, and always generally become thought of as someone who could be approached for comments/assessment on other issues (sometimes including more personal and important ones) later in the future... but NEVER had a single case of an angry, resentful, or otherwise negative response. In fact, sometimes I've been told what a RELIEF it was to talk to me compared to the "white" liars, making the "white" lies the ONLY answers to such questions that I've ever seen a negative response to.

That example happens to be close to a recent case I was on the other side of, too. Not long ago, I grew a beard, for the first time in years and the first time that anyone around me had ever seen. Some people said it looked good, but they were the ones that I knew would have said a bald face looked good if I'd always had a beard before, because they'd pretty much say anything looks good no matter what you've done, so their comments were worthless and annoying. Others told me it wasn't good and I should get rid of it. The beard is now gone. Guess which group of people gave me what I really needed/wanted and got what they really needed/wanted from me, and established their reliability with me so I can take their words seriously in the future. Guess which group of people established from now on that sometimes talking to them or listening to them is pointless, thus creating a bit of extra space between us.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 09:59 PM
Have you ever worked with other people? Do you have any friends?

If your friends only stay friends if you lie to them, they're not the kind of friends worth keeping.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 10:05 PM
In Tuscon_Tim's defense, I think he was talking about tact or diplomacy, which are necessary for successful interaction in a variety of settings.

I don't tend to think of tact or diplomacy as being equivalent to lying, but then I am not very good at any of the above. ;)

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 10:08 PM
If you work at home or stay home and don't work at all, it's probably very easy to refrain from telling "little" white lies - and I mean small meaningless responses to questions that have no consequence. Just like it's easy to be a "saint" if you live up on top of a mountain away from the human race. Come out in the real world and see how far you get with "brutal honesty". Out in the world you have to use diplomacy.


I'm pretty much a recluse anyway, because I get panic attacks around strangers or large groups of people, so any additional filtering of people I have to associate with isn't a bad thing.

"Diplomacy" just isn't something my brain is wired for. It's taken me this long just to get to "marginally functional" in my social interactions.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 10:17 PM
I'm pretty much a recluse anyway, because I get panic attacks around strangers or large groups of people, so any additional filtering of people I have to associate with isn't a bad thing.

"Diplomacy" just isn't something my brain is wired for. It's taken me this long just to get to "marginally functional" in my social interactions.

Noclevername, you are a lot more than 'marginally functional'; you are one of my fave posters! :)

My brain isn't particularly wired for diplomacy either, but I've had to learn, given my current job description. My ability to be diplomatic waxes and wanes, however, depending on my mood on that particular day and various other stresses I might be under at the time.

I believe in telling the truth at all times. However, I think that many times one can word the truth such that it is less hurtful and more likely to be heard by the person you are telling it to. That said, sometimes tact just won't work on said person and a good kick in the a** is required. ;)

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-01, 10:22 PM
Instead of listening while you accuse the honest of being recluses or failures, . . .

Don't misquote me. Point out where I called someone a failure? Or even implied that someone was a failure?

Lurker
2007-Jul-01, 10:27 PM
In Tuscon_Tim's defense, I think he was talking about tact or diplomacy, which are necessary for successful interaction in a variety of settings.

I don't tend to think of tact or diplomacy as being equivalent to lying, but then I am not very good at any of the above. ;)
I disagree with this... I think we have invented the concepts of tact and diplomacy and expect it of other people because there are times when we don't want to hear the truth. Personally I prefer the truth; that way I don't have to keep track of the different "white lies" that I have told one or another. I also prefer the truth, no matter how raw, from my friends and others. It not only is helpful in finding out things about myself, it also makes it very clear where I stand with others.

I will say however, that I have learned that the truth is often an unwelcome commodity and as a result I have learned to keep my silence. If pressed, though, I will speak the truth rather than lie. It has made me very unpopular among some, but extremely close to those who value the truth as deeply as I do.


Oh yeah... I have always found it ironic that we teach children in school that the truth shall set you free and then we spend the rest of our lives being taught the exceptions to this rule.


As far as the op... I too find it difficult to believe that an accurate determination can be made as to wether a preverbal child is lying or not... :)

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 10:30 PM
Well, Delvo, just had an example of this in my own life. Hubby came in with a shirt and a selection of ties to wear to work tomorrow. He put a red & yellow polka-dotted tie on top of a blue pinstriped shirt and seemed to think this looked ok.

I told him, as gently as possible, that it is NOT a good idea to mix colors AND patterns like that. He chose a better tie.

Had I said, 'Are you blind?? That tie doesn't go with that shirt!', he would have gotten upset, and we would have had a huge row.

Same truth, different delivery, opposite results.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-01, 10:30 PM
Noclevername, you are a lot more than 'marginally functional'; you are one of my fave posters! :)



Thank you, that's the best thing I've heard all day. Is there a blush smiley? :D

It's easy to be glib on a keyboard. But facing people in person, or even on the telephone, can be a nightmare for me. And, even though I've managed to mimic certain patterns of behavior and social interaction, sometimes the illusion just breaks down, and the "program" I've worked out for dealing with people turns into one big error message. Usually with very poor results, for me, the person I was trying to deal with, or both.

ADDED: Politeness is relatively easy, because it is a familiar, somewhat ritualized pattern. But, like all social patterns, it has its limitations, and sometimes what I think is the right thing to say or do, isn't.

Lurker
2007-Jul-01, 10:33 PM
Well, Delvo, just had an example of this in my own life. Hubby came in with a shirt and a selection of ties to wear to work tomorrow. He put a red & yellow polka-dotted tie on top of a blue pinstriped shirt and seemed to think this looked ok.

I told him, as gently as possible, that it is NOT a good idea to mix colors AND patterns like that. He chose a better tie.

Had I said, 'Are you blind?? That tie doesn't go with that shirt!', he would have gotten upset, and we would have had a huge row.

Same truth, different delivery, opposite results.
I agree... the truth is best delivered with respect and humility. It is is best thought of as a gift, not a weapon..

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-01, 10:46 PM
It's easy to be glib on a keyboard. But facing people in person, or even on the telephone, can be a nightmare for me. And, even though I've managed to mimic certain patterns of behavior and social interaction, sometimes the illusion just breaks down, and the "program" I've worked out for dealing with people turns into one big error message. Usually with very poor results, for me, the person I was trying to deal with, or both.

I don't know whether there is some sort of therapy to help with what you are talking about. I have no idea what treatments are available for Asperger's, if there are any.

I am very shy (although I may not seem like it at times), and I sometimes have a hard time being around people also. I am fine on the phone; but, for some reason, I am not comfortable being crowded up. Places like crowded elevators or, worse, crowded subway trains are extremely stressful for me.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-01, 11:21 PM
...I will say however, that I have learned that the truth is often an unwelcome commodity and as a result I have learned to keep my silence...Eerily evocative of American humorist Sam Levenson (http://workinghumor.com/quotes/sam_levenson.shtml#)'s:
It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it.
[attributed]:)

Lurker
2007-Jul-01, 11:25 PM
Eerily evocative of American humorist Sam Levenson (http://workinghumor.com/quotes/sam_levenson.shtml#)'s::)
I agree that one can increase ones wisdom most easily through the use of silence, but I do not approve of our cultures concept of tact. I prefer the truth... spoken plainly, gently, and with great humility...

Gillianren
2007-Jul-02, 01:05 AM
I can do tact. I just keep my mouth shut. I'm very open about my personal rule about being asked for advice; it means I don't get questions from people just trying to fish for compliments. I get questions from people who want a genuine opinion--and often, they get a positive one from me! It's not as though to ask me is to be told something you don't want to hear.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-02, 01:22 AM
I agree that one can increase ones wisdom most easily through the use of silence, but I do not approve of our cultures concept of tact. I prefer the truth... spoken plainly, gently, and with great humility...


Truth I can handle, and usually plainly... The other two give me problems. :doh:

Lurker
2007-Jul-02, 04:03 AM
Truth I can handle, and usually plainly... The other two give me problems. :doh:
yup... truth is not that hard. It's not using it as a weapon that seems to be the difficult aspect to master... :sad:

Hmmm... it also seems much easier to see the truth about others rather than the truth about one's self. :think:

Indeo
2007-Jul-02, 04:12 AM
I just keep my mouth shut.

It's usually best :)

I know it's a different context, but an awful lot of people in the world would sound a lot smarter if they knew when to keep their mouths shut. The people in the ATM forum would sound smarter if they didn't talk about science, and most of the people in the rest of the forum would sound a lot smarter if they didn't talk about anything else.

please
2007-Jul-02, 04:14 AM
Let's spell it: we lie to gain some value at others' expense. It is as natural as killing for food, and we keep doing it because natural selection thinks it works.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-02, 04:29 AM
...Hmmm...it also seems much easier to see the truth about others rather than the truth about one's self. :think:
...we lie to gain some value at others' expense......and if/when we lie to ourselves...hmmh, some more. :)

Lurker
2007-Jul-02, 04:31 AM
Let's spell it: we lie to gain some value at others' expense. It is as natural as killing for food, and we keep doing it because natural selection thinks it works.
I would disagree with the statement it is natural... It tends to be easier in many cases than teling the truth, but I don't think that's an indication that natural selection plays a part.

Personally I think the truth is a much more difficult path, but I have found a much richer path...

Noclevername
2007-Jul-02, 04:49 AM
yup... truth is not that hard. It's not using it as a weapon that seems to be the difficult aspect to master...

I end up using it not as a weapon, but as a blunt, uncoordinated intrument of destruction most of the time. Sort of like a blind steamshovel driver.

Jens
2007-Jul-02, 05:08 AM
At the risk of stirring some controversy, I would propose that human communication inherently involves lying. Politeness in itself is a form of lying: using a different tone of voice or different words to create a certain impression. Actually, I think that many animals (maybe all, who knows) use techniques like bluffing (inhaling air to make themselves bigger, showing their teeth), which is a type of lie. I suspect that the ability to lie is very essential to our being human. And I also think probably that a person with Asperger's is not really "not lying", but just doing it in a way that is not "sufficiently subtle" (I don't mean that in a negative way) for the standards of society around them. So I think it's probably natural that even babies would lie.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-02, 05:15 AM
And I also think probably that a person with Asperger's is not really "not lying", but just doing it in a way that is not "sufficiently subtle" (I don't mean that in a negative way) for the standards of society around them.
I've been told I'm as "subtle as a hammer". No, it's not negative, it's pretty much true. I have to concentrate very hard on what I'm doing and saying to try to follow social conventions, and that's not very conducive to relaying nuances.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-02, 05:40 AM
I've been told I'm as "subtle as a hammer". No, it's not negative, it's pretty much true. I have to concentrate very hard on what I'm doing and saying to try to follow social conventions, and that's not very conducive to relaying nuances.

The people you can most understand have that kind of subtlety. This is easier if it is from a friend as it goes over much less well with strangers. The great thing a listener can do is appreciate that like it or not you speak the truth.

Truth is the hardest thing of all because it is based on what you believe. Now if you are wrong it hurts more as you are both wrong and feeling attacked. To be corrected on a known white lie is less painful because you are only corrected, you knew full well that you were lying. So as telling lies hurts much less if caught than telling the 'truth' out it is a far more often practiced option.

Back to the baby, does any one really think babies are little yes machines? If so why is it estimated that the average child by the age of five will have been told "NO" some 10,000 times it was in fact my first word (hangs head in shame).

So much of later in life medicine revolves around the way we learnt "NO", my parents should be candidates for sainthood, they must have been tempted. I know me and I am still here (I think unless the universe really is holographic).

Jens
2007-Jul-02, 05:52 AM
I know me and I am still here (I think unless the universe really is holographic).

I think you would still be here even if the universe were holographic -- just that the substance of "here" might change...

Delvo
2007-Jul-02, 11:45 AM
Politeness in itself is a form of lying: using a different tone of voice or different words to create a certain impression.Some of what some people call "politeness" is. "Politeness" is a big category and not limited to just that, though, and whether or not even that really counts is disputable.


Actually, I think that many animals (maybe all, who knows) use techniques like bluffing (inhaling air to make themselves bigger, showing their teeth), which is a type of lie.Baring teeth isn't conveying false information; it's an emotional expression, and it's expressing an emotion that the animal really does feel. And puffing up might be said to convey false information that the animal is more dangerous than it really is, but then it's only lying if the animal is aware of that. (And even then, the threatening animal that caused the puff-up is an enemy, and how one interacts with one's enemies is a different issue from how one interacts iwth one's friends/allies or even neutrals.)

mfumbesi
2007-Jul-02, 12:45 PM
If you are at war propaganda (lies) is your friend.
If your enemy believes that you will only attack on the 15th based on the miss-information you spread, this will be in your favour as you can attack sooner than expected. Lying/miss-information/propaganda can be a powerful weapon, think of any recent war from this and the previous century, miss-information through the popular media has been used as a weapon to gain some edge over ones enemies.
Animals lie/miss-lead to get out of life threatening situations, IMHO it is part of evolution. Springboks trot and jump high to show the predator (e.g.leopards) that they are healthy, strong and fast, but when the predator calls the bluff the truth comes out and the springbok becomes lunch.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-02, 12:55 PM
Or birds who go protecting a random place where no nest is to be found in order to lead the predator away from the real location of the nest. It's a brutal lie, but it is a handy one. :) An even more brutal lie: play dead. It can help you an awful lot in some cases though. You wouldn't be the first person/animal surviving a bear attack by lying about your heartbeat after the first strike.

Damien Evans
2007-Jul-02, 01:03 PM
If I could do that, I wouldn't have Asperger's syndrome.

I second that one, wish i could, but can't

Damien Evans
2007-Jul-02, 01:05 PM
In Tuscon_Tim's defense, I think he was talking about tact or diplomacy, which are necessary for successful interaction in a variety of settings.

I don't tend to think of tact or diplomacy as being equivalent to lying, but then I am not very good at any of the above. ;)

Diplomacy is not something we Aspergers sufferers are good at

Damien Evans
2007-Jul-02, 01:08 PM
I end up using it not as a weapon, but as a blunt, uncoordinated intrument of destruction most of the time. Sort of like a blind steamshovel driver.

Clear the road boys, she's coming through!:)

Click Ticker
2007-Jul-02, 01:27 PM
Let's see:

"How are you?", "How you doin'?", "How's it goin'?". Most of us must hear this question at least once a day. Typical responses include, "Fine", "Good", "Alright", etc. (As an aside - anyone have anything particularly creative in response to this somewhat standard US greeting?) Is it a lie to say "Fine" when things aren't fine? Do you tell an acquaintance that you're doing rotten at the risk of having them ask further questions? Saying "Fine" is a lie that almost all of us tell. Sure, there are a couple of you in here that will say that you tell people exactly how you're doing if asked. Truth is, most people that ask, "How are you doing?" - don't want to know. They want to hear, "Fine", and move on.

Damien Evans
2007-Jul-02, 01:31 PM
well, if i'm asked that as soon as I get up in the morning said askee will be lucky to get anything more than a grunt out of me, but that's not really inventive, that's just cause i hate mornings

mfumbesi
2007-Jul-02, 01:39 PM
Let's see:

Truth is, most people that ask, "How are you doing?" - don't want to know. They want to hear, "Fine", and move on.

Thank you.
Infact there is joke that anyone who tells you exactly how she/he is, is a bore and should be avoided at all cost.:lol:
When I greet you I acknowledge you and your presence (in my culture at least), if we are not close friend I don't expect you to tell me the story of your life because I dared and asked "how are you?".

Nicolas
2007-Jul-02, 03:43 PM
How are you?

It all started when I was about 2 years old...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo........
:D

Noclevername
2007-Jul-02, 05:11 PM
Let's see:

"How are you?", "How you doin'?", "How's it goin'?". Most of us must hear this question at least once a day. Typical responses include, "Fine", "Good", "Alright", etc. (As an aside - anyone have anything particularly creative in response to this somewhat standard US greeting?) Is it a lie to say "Fine" when things aren't fine? Do you tell an acquaintance that you're doing rotten at the risk of having them ask further questions? Saying "Fine" is a lie that almost all of us tell. Sure, there are a couple of you in here that will say that you tell people exactly how you're doing if asked. Truth is, most people that ask, "How are you doing?" - don't want to know. They want to hear, "Fine", and move on.


It took me until I was about 20 to learn that one. Nobody bothered to point out the rule to me! If someone had just once said "it's a rhetorical question, whenever someone says that just say fine", it would have saved me a lot of wasted time. How was I to know?

Ilya
2007-Jul-02, 05:32 PM
I am categorically against telling people bad news which a) are not yet fully confirmed, and b) the recipient is powerless to do anything about. If the bad news turns out to be a false alarm, the recipients are spared unnecessary emotional pain. If it is true, then at least they had a few more days of happiness. Should my doctor suspect I have cancer, I will not tell it to any of my friends or relatives until its known for certain.

Once, on a business trip to a Third World country, I had a bizarre misadventure which resulted in me missing for a day and a half. My company notified my wife, as was its policy. Next day, when I called my wife to tell all is well, I was aboslutely furious with her for telling my parents that I was missing/abducted/dead/you name it. All she did was cause my mom and dad a day of hell.

And before anyone asks, my parents agree with me. They told me they would have preferred not to know. Not until there was a corpse or a ransom note or until I turned up at the hotel with a local cop (which is what happened).

Lurker
2007-Jul-02, 05:39 PM
At the risk of stirring some controversy, I would propose that human communication inherently involves lying. Politeness in itself is a form of lying: using a different tone of voice or different words to create a certain impression. Actually, I think that many animals (maybe all, who knows) use techniques like bluffing (inhaling air to make themselves bigger, showing their teeth), which is a type of lie. I suspect that the ability to lie is very essential to our being human. And I also think probably that a person with Asperger's is not really "not lying", but just doing it in a way that is not "sufficiently subtle" (I don't mean that in a negative way) for the standards of society around them. So I think it's probably natural that even babies would lie.
Hmmmmm... I think that what separates us from other animals is our ability to choose... We can choose not to eat when we are hungry, we can choose to help others when it may put our own survival in jeopardy. I think that in the same way we can we can choose the path of truth over that of lying... I have done so and, although I have lost friends because of it, I have also acquired friends that are very close... the truth can produce strong intimate bonds...

Ilya
2007-Jul-02, 05:48 PM
Let's see:

"How are you?", "How you doin'?", "How's it goin'?". Most of us must hear this question at least once a day. Typical responses include, "Fine", "Good", "Alright", etc. (As an aside - anyone have anything particularly creative in response to this somewhat standard US greeting?)

"Fan-TAS-tic!"
"Now that I met you, great!"
"Mostly harmless"

Is it a lie to say "Fine" when things aren't fine? Do you tell an acquaintance that you're doing rotten at the risk of having them ask further questions?

In US you do not, but it is a cultural thing. In Russia "crying on another's shoulder" is a standard social interaction. To a Russian, saying "Fine" when things are not fine is brusque and cold. It's an indicator that you do not want to talk to the other person.

Ilya
2007-Jul-02, 05:53 PM
I would disagree with the statement it is natural... It tends to be easier in many cases than teling the truth, but I don't think that's an indication that natural selection plays a part.

Lurker --

Which caveman do you think had better reproductive success -- Og, whose emotions and intentions were always obvious, or Oog, who could successfully conceal them when needed, and display some other emotions/intentions?

Lurker
2007-Jul-02, 06:00 PM
Lurker --

Which caveman do you think had better reproductive success -- Og, whose emotions and intentions were always obvious, or Oog, who could successfully conceal them when needed, and display some other emotions/intentions?
I don't know that failure to express something whether it is an emotion or information of one sort or another is necessarily a lie. To use an example brought up previously in this thread, if my doctor tells me that I have cancer I don't know that it's necessarily a lie to not freely express the feelings that I have as a result of the news.

However, I think that the question of natural selection is a secondary issue. As humans we have the ability to control the pressures that may part of us as a part of natural selection. It seems to me that lying is a choice and a cultural standard that can be placed aside. At least this has been my experience and it has been a very interesting and enriching experiment.

John Mendenhall
2007-Jul-02, 06:28 PM
Same truth, different delivery, opposite results.

Quite true. I have deleted entire posts of mine on BAUT, ATM in particular, after reading them and thinking "That's way too strong. Better to lead the original poster to the correct answer than to club them over the head."

Peter Wilson
2007-Jul-02, 06:39 PM
"Why can't people just tell the truth?!"

I can tell the truth. It's just that....

:think:




Ok. I lied.

:)

Gillianren
2007-Jul-02, 06:48 PM
I don't even lie when asked "How are you?" I don't go into a lot of detail unless it's someone I know, but "meh" is a pretty standard response from me. (As is, for acquaintances, "Compared to what?") Once again, The Simpsons has presented me with the perfect word for a common situation.

Jens
2007-Jul-03, 02:10 AM
And puffing up might be said to convey false information that the animal is more dangerous than it really is, but then it's only lying if the animal is aware of that. (And even then, the threatening animal that caused the puff-up is an enemy, and how one interacts with one's enemies is a different issue from how one interacts iwth one's friends/allies or even neutrals.)

I don't think the world is that simple (or rather, that human society is that simple). Enemy species are one thing, but enemy humans are another, and even within the same social group, there are competitors. Even siblings compete for their parents' attention. So I don't think we can neatly divide people into friends and enemies.

Maksutov
2007-Jul-03, 11:48 AM
I used to try to read other people's minds. Then I realized I can't even read my own.

But one great thing about pop culture is, there are no lies in there.

Everything is beautiful in its own way
Like a starry summer night
Or a snow-covered winter's day

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-03, 02:54 PM
Root cause: Lack of honesty, leads to poor self awareness, leads to lack of esteem, leads to fear of what others will think.

So they lie, trying to preserve what others think while further complicating awareness and esteem issues.

The way out is self-awareness, honesty, and being OK with who you are.

It's really quite simple, but is made difficult because too much of society rewards image & looking good over courage & honesty.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-03, 03:07 PM
But on the other hand, people use the truth as a weapon too often, either by presenting the truth overly harsh or selective to you. Which also is not good for your self esteem.

Delvo
2007-Jul-03, 04:13 PM
But on the other hand, people use the truth as a weapon too often, either by presenting the truth overly harsh or selective to you.The same can be done with lies. The point either way is the harshness, not which form the harshness takes.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-03, 04:29 PM
The same can be done with lies. The point either way is the harshness, not which form the harshness takes.



Sometimes judging which is which can be quite difficult. One person's tact is another's "How dare you say that to me??"

Nicolas
2007-Jul-03, 04:42 PM
The same can be done with lies. The point either way is the harshness, not which form the harshness takes.

I agree. But that does show that you can't equate "lack of honesty" with "sometimes or often not telling the truth". You can never lie and still break a person (for example only commenting when he does something wrong, never when he does something right). Lack of neutrality and lack of tact indeed would be a better wording. Don't filter and don't bring truth or lies such as to underline the positive or negative too much (that approach should automatically filter out anything worse than white lies). In social interactions, that is. When the bear attacks, lie about being alive and whatever you do, keep lying about it :).

Lurker
2007-Jul-03, 08:49 PM
Root cause: Lack of honesty, leads to poor self awareness, leads to lack of esteem, leads to fear of what others will think.

So they lie, trying to preserve what others think while further complicating awareness and esteem issues.

The way out is self-awareness, honesty, and being OK with who you are.

It's really quite simple, but is made difficult because too much of society rewards image & looking good over courage & honesty.
I agree... to present the truth gently and with humility, beginning with telling one's self the truth, is a serious act of courage. Unfortunately, as you say, society rewards image over courage and honesty. It's unfortunate but true.

01101001
2007-Jul-03, 10:28 PM
Maybe drifiting from the topic of lying as social grease...


Unfortunately, as you say, society rewards image over courage and honesty. It's unfortunate but true.

Society also rewards lying, highly. We give some liars status, respect, admiration and even buckets of money. They're known as authors of fiction.

(And, some others are known as polititicans -- but maybe we shouldn't go there.)

Lurker
2007-Jul-03, 10:45 PM
Maybe drifiting from the topic of lying as social grease...



Society also rewards lying, highly. We give some liars status, respect, admiration and even buckets of money. They're known as authors of fiction.

(And, some others are known as polititicans -- but maybe we shouldn't go there.)
Hmmmm... I don't know that fiction necessarily constitutes lying... it is after all labeled fiction in most cases (I am particularly of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet) and doesn't really attempt to hide the fact that it is not true.

I am aware that many institutions in our culture have little difficult with lying and I find that unfortunate.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-03, 10:47 PM
...Society also rewards lying, highly...authors of fiction. (And, some others are known as polititicans...)Yes (good point!), but we know/should know ahead of time where they are coming from :)
My faves are Lying Contests (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=bizarre&id=4857424)---featuring "honest" liars!

Noclevername
2007-Jul-03, 10:56 PM
Since I just got in trouble on another thread for being "too honest", I can indeed confirm that mostly we punish openness.

Lurker
2007-Jul-03, 11:01 PM
Since I just got in trouble on another thread for being "too honest", I can indeed confirm that most we punish openness.
It might be interesting to present the circumstances...

I have found that in many quarters the truth can lead to a great deal of trouble. I have had more than my share for openness, but then it has had some sweet rewards as well...

Noclevername
2007-Jul-03, 11:04 PM
I have had more than my share for openness, but then it has had some sweet rewards as well...

I'd like to have one of those sometime. :)

Lurker
2007-Jul-03, 11:07 PM
I'd like to have one of those sometime. :)
Well... you gotta hang with the honest people... ;)

Noclevername
2007-Jul-03, 11:11 PM
It might be interesting to present the circumstances...

I'm still trying to figure out what the circumstances were. There always seem to be a lot of contradictions in the social rules. And no one warns you ahead of time that the rules are changing, you're just supposed to "know".

The only thing i've been told is that I used "too much emphasis." Okay, so what's enough emphasis?

No answer. As usual, I'm supposed to guess.

:wall:

Never mind, this isn't therapy. I'm fine, how are you? :rolleyes:

SeanF
2007-Jul-04, 12:21 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what the circumstances were.
How about a link to the thread in question? :)

Noclevername
2007-Jul-04, 12:26 AM
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56317

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-04, 03:19 AM
Yes (good point!), but we know/should know ahead of time where they are coming from :)
My faves are Lying Contests (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=bizarre&id=4857424)---featuring "honest" liars!

Good point but you know if the person believes what they are saying it is not strictly a lie. It is still wrong and that person has to be held accountable for that. A lie is a deliberate act where the person both knows it is wrong and so it is also a lie. Sometimes it is done to serve a purpose. :)

Gillianren
2007-Jul-04, 04:46 AM
There are quite a few cases of authors telling lies to get books published, by claiming fiction to be nonfiction.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-04, 06:48 PM
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56317

Just had a look at the thread and have a few off-topic remarks as to use of italics, bolding, etc. These are my views :) on what their use may indicate:

I consider the use of italics is a gentle, polite way of stressing something.

I consider the use of bolding (other than when indicating a username) a stronger way of stressing a point, and may be a way of indicating exasperation and/or irritation, depending on context, or may just be a way of strongly stressing a point without necessarily indicating hostility. Addition of smiley emoticons usually indicates that latter intent.

All caps may indicate either a high level of exasperation/annoyance or desire to add emphasis without wanting to go up to the toolbar and click the 'bold' or the 'italics' command.

I think interpreting the use of those three methods of stressing a point is highly context-dependent. Italics can also indicate restrained irritation in some contexts. Bolding may indicate sternness but not hostility in some contexts. Alternately, bolding could be used to tell a joke.

Sorry, Noclevername, I know this doesn't help much. I don't have Aspergers, and I get it wrong too sometimes. ;) This is the problem with electronic communication; contextual clues such as body language and tone of voice are absent, making interpretation of the emotional content of the message that much harder.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-04, 10:42 PM
I think interpreting the use of those three methods of stressing a point is highly context-dependent. Italics can also indicate restrained irritation in some contexts. Bolding may indicate sternness but not hostility in some contexts. Alternately, bolding could be used to tell a joke.


Mama Mia, that's-a arbitrary meatball!

:wall:

Man, I wish someone would hurry up and invent telepathy, already. It feels like I'm tap dancing on melting ice; every time I think I've found a little island of stability, everything shifts...

Lurker
2007-Jul-04, 10:45 PM
There are quite a few cases of authors telling lies to get books published, by claiming fiction to be nonfiction.
Would you be refering perhaps to those who write books about moon conspiracies and such?? :think:

yup... thems is lies...

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-05, 12:42 AM
Mama Mia, that's-a arbitrary meatball!

:wall:

Man, I wish someone would hurry up and invent telepathy, already. It feels like I'm tap dancing on melting ice; every time I think I've found a little island of stability, everything shifts...


Yeah, I know. :( The natural world and computers are so much more predictable, I think!

DaveC426913
2007-Jul-05, 02:14 AM
Since I just got in trouble on another thread for being "too honest", I can indeed confirm that mostly we punish openness.It is all too common a situation that people will use "I'm just being honest" as an opportunity to spew forth all form of thoughtless, nasty hurtful things.

I'm not suggesting you were doing this, I'm merely using your anecdote as a segue.

Ishmael
2007-Jul-05, 04:26 AM
Why should they tell the truth?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-05, 05:24 AM
Why should they tell the truth?

I think that's what it boils down to. Since lying can benefit the liar, what are the motivations not to?

In order of increasing pragmatism;

1) It's morally wrong to lie, at least nominally, according to most belief systems and cultural values. In practice, they may not act like it, but at least on paper their rules state that these institutions frown on lying.

2) It's disrespectful to the person being lied to. If they know or find out that you are lying, they will be hurt or angered by it. Even if they don't, it shows that the liar does not believe that person worthy of the truth.

3) It promotes and propagates inaccurate information. Every person and group needs accurate information to function. By spreading a lie, you've made determining that more difficult.

Maksutov
2007-Jul-05, 12:10 PM
Why should they tell the truth?Call me.

Maksutov
2007-Jul-05, 12:12 PM
A reverberating universal plaint, recently overheard at a local lunch counter, in this instance aimed at a frustrated someone's (absent) significant other.
July 1, 2007
...all children try to mislead their parents at some time. Yet it now appears that...infants begin to lie from as young as six months. Simple fibs help to train them for more complex deceptions in later life...
Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/07/01/scibaby101.xml)The reason is simple: it's a silver deficiency.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-05, 03:43 PM
Yes, but although the classic (and much too prevalent) sans argent syndrome remains the basis of many a lie, it's probably not applicable in these two instances. :)

Gillianren
2007-Jul-05, 06:12 PM
Would you be refering perhaps to those who write books about moon conspiracies and such?

Actually, no. There's a book written by a woman which was allegedly the autobiography of a male prostitute, for example. Rather famously, there's A Million Little Pieces. (Stephen King said he'd known all along that the guy was lying about things, because that's what addicts do.) And of course, there's more than a little scholarly debate about the accuracy of the bits of Roots that are supposed to be true.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-05, 11:10 PM
...and wasn't there something 'major' written about Howard Hughes later proved a fabrication after publication? (Details hazy---diary, will?)

Gillianren
2007-Jul-05, 11:26 PM
...and wasn't there something 'major' written about Howard Hughes later proved a fabrication after publication? (Details hazy---diary, will?)

Autobiography and will; how's that grab you? The guy who wrote the autobiography (who claimed, as I recall, to be a ghost writer; I haven't caught the movie yet or read about the case in years) pulled his stunt while Hughes was alive but in seclusion, not unlike claiming that you were J. D. Salinger's personal assistant any time in about the last forty years. The will seems equally bogus; it seems very, very likely that Howard Hughes, seeing no one he actually cared enough to leave money to, died intestate.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-06, 12:05 AM
Ah, thanks, it does seem long ago and far away...
and even the police are at it! http://bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
July 5, 2007
...Dispatchers heard the [4-year old] child's voice but could only track the phone's signal to the apartment complex. So authorities used a ruse to pinpoint her. "We asked (the caller) what she wanted. She said she wanted McDonald's...and we convinced her if she told us where she lives, we would bring her McDonald's...She finally gave us her address. So we sent the police over—with no McDonald's."...
Breitbart/AP (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8Q6IBU00&show_article=1)

Noclevername
2007-Jul-06, 12:15 AM
So authorities used a ruse to pinpoint her. "We asked (the caller) what she wanted. She said she wanted McDonald's...and we convinced her if she told us where she lives, we would bring her McDonald's...She finally gave us her address.
So anyone who offers this kid McDonalds gets her home address? Kinda scary.

Jens
2007-Jul-06, 05:58 AM
So anyone who offers this kid McDonalds gets her home address? Kinda scary.

Well, four-year-old children are not always the brightest things in the world, actually. That's why they usually have people looking out for them.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-06, 08:15 AM
Indeed. Plus, it's logical that if they're going to bring you hamburgers at home, they need to have your address. I would rather call the 4yo smart for knowing at least their house number, than dumb for telling it in this situation.

Of course that trick is transparent to the average adult who knows McDo doesn't deliver at home, but that's why they used it on a 4yo.

snarkophilus
2007-Jul-06, 08:39 AM
The best reason to lie, of course, is for your own entertainment. Whether it involves convincing a bunch of guys in a bar that my friend is a princess from Germany (and watching them spend the evening gawking and slobbering at her), or it's simply tricking my little sister into believing that there is a dragon in the back yard, lying is almost invariably the best part of my day. As an amateur magician, I lie a lot in the name of entertaining others, as well.

The best case cited in that study was the kid who was going to dig in his mother's house plant. He was just reaching for the soil when his mom walked in. He quickly turned the reaching motion into a wave, thus deceiving her.

And the best statistic about lying is how many times the average person does it in a day. It's 32, which is probably more sentences than I usually speak to other people. Of course, that number was a lie (I don't remember the actual number, though I was told by an intelligence agent once that it was in that ballpark). Just trying to fill my quota.

Seriously, try to count your lies one day. Be honest about it. The result will be shocking.

Jens
2007-Jul-06, 08:58 AM
As an amateur magician, I lie a lot in the name of entertaining others, as well.


Actually, that's a good example of a really "white" lie. I mean, the fact that magicians trick us (by lying, essentially) is delightful and entertaining. I'd be pretty disappointed if the magician said, "and now I'll put this coin into my hand -- well actually, I didn't put it in my hand, I hid it in my sleeve..." We know we're being lied to, and yet that's the whole point of it.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-06, 09:23 AM
REAL magicians don't lie, you're just a fraud.



I just lied to you in making it seem like I believed in "real" magicians. That's one up my counter.

Magicians are a "sport". Indeed everyone in the audience -hopefully- knows that he's being tricked. The art is that while everyone knows it, the magician still can do these things unnoticed. It's far easier to trick or lie when nobody expects you're going to do it. Of course, magicians still try to use this in their acts through deception, but everyone's stil scouting for trickery, which is not a normal situation in cases where you trick or lie in everyday life. I applaud for magicians because they "got me", not because I think they're miracles who really did something physically impossible. If they could do physically impossible things, it would be far less difficult for them to do these shows :).

SeanF
2007-Jul-06, 03:45 PM
Seriously, try to count your lies one day. Be honest about it. The result will be shocking.
I haven't told a single lie today.





Dang it!


;)

I saw a sitcom once where two people were telling each other about themselves. The woman says that she's a compulsive liar. The man says, "Really?" and the woman replies, "No. You see?" :lol:

Lurker
2007-Jul-06, 09:31 PM
Actually, that's a good example of a really "white" lie. I mean, the fact that magicians trick us (by lying, essentially) is delightful and entertaining. I'd be pretty disappointed if the magician said, "and now I'll put this coin into my hand -- well actually, I didn't put it in my hand, I hid it in my sleeve..." We know we're being lied to, and yet that's the whole point of it.

I prefer the likes of Pen and Teller they tell you that they are coing to deceive you and then go ahead and do it... I like the fact that they are bold enough to tell me the truth up front... :)

Lurker
2007-Jul-06, 09:32 PM
Seriously, try to count your lies one day. Be honest about it. The result will be shocking.
Sorta presupposes that we all lie... some of us work very hard not to... :)

Whirlpool
2007-Jul-07, 04:58 AM
Actually when you are the person who have been lied to, possible reaction is what the title of this thread is saying.
But when you're the person who lied. Probably, there's a reason behind.
There are a lot of reason why a person lie , whether its a white lie or a Big Lie. Reason varies , depends on a situation. <shrug>

But one thing , in my personal opinion, is that Truth will Prevail no matter what or how a lie is concealed.

:neutral:

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-07, 07:39 AM
(snip)

But one thing , in my personal opinion, is that Truth will Prevail no matter what or how a lie is concealed.

:neutral:

Yes this is quoted entirely out of context for this next bit, but quoted simply because it is clearly such a good an insight that it shouldn't be wasted or allowed to go past without praise, thanks Whirlpool.

The truth is:-

The truth is if Iran, Iraq and North Korea built particle accelerators to produce strange particles it would be an act of terrorism.

The truth is if America, Switzerland or Britain build particle accelerators to produce "results" it is good science.

The truth is there is less than half a chance we will see the year 2100 because of this.

The truth is even if "results" do come through they wont switch off the particle accelerators.

The truth is a child dies at a rate of less than every three seconds because of poverty.

The truth is blind, uncaring, inconsiderate and lives in a world without meaning.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-07, 08:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirlpool
(snip)

But one thing , in my personal opinion, is that Truth will Prevail no matter what or how a lie is concealed.




Yes this is quoted entirely out of context for this next bit, but quoted simply because it is clearly such a good an insight that it shouldn't be wasted or allowed to go past without praise, thanks Whirlpool.

The truth is:-

The truth is if Iran, Iraq and North Korea built particle accelerators to produce strange particles it would be an act of terrorism.

The truth is if America, Switzerland or Britain build particle accelerators to produce "results" it is good science.

The truth is there is less than half a chance we will see the year 2100 because of this.

The truth is even if "results" do come through they wont switch off the particle accelerators.

The truth is a child dies at a rate of less than every three seconds because of poverty.

The truth is blind, uncaring, inconsiderate and lives in a world without meaning.


I kept your piece in there Whirlpool because I really really really like what you said.

The truth is an environmental concert will be criticized for its carbon footprint.

The truth is elected governments treat everything you elect them to manage as their own private property.

The truth is business is in the business of extracting money from the customer.

The truth is business owes no loyalty to an employee but must appear to do so.

The truth is an employee owes no loyalty that is not earned but is required to give it.

The truth is the human body is so over engineered that few if any will ever get to explore its potential.

The truth is that while no human being should be expected to work above their capacity, any human being failing to do so will be replaced by one that can.

The truth is 500 years ago the churches were encouraging people to pay their way into heaven while at the same time were torturing and killing unbelievers.

The truth is it is still happening.

The truth is God does not need expensive cars or private jet planes and yet He owns quite a few expensive cars and private jet planes.

The truth is the practise of public executions, floggings, starvation and keeping people in cages can now be carried out far more decently in the privacy of the family home.

The truth is that people publicly answer questions under obligation to the media and yet the same media is not obliged to publicly acknowledge the answers or publicly explain the interpretation the media makes of those answers.

The truth is you can handle a lie, the truth is you can't handle the truth.

Lurker
2007-Jul-07, 07:08 PM
The truth is you can handle a lie, the truth is you can't handle the truth.

Gotta disagree with this one...

sarongsong
2007-Jul-07, 09:22 PM
How about paraphrasing W. Whitman? :)

The lie is to the liar and returns most to him.
...The song is to the singer, and comes back most to him, The teaching is to the teacher, and comes back most to him, The murder is to the murderer, and comes back most to him, The theft is to the thief, and comes back most to him, The love is to the lover, and comes back most to him, The gift is to the giver, and comes back most to him--it cannot fail, The oration is to the orator, the acting is to the actor and actress not to the audience, And no man understands any greatness or goodness but his own, or the indication of his own...
---Leaves of Grass

DaveC426913
2007-Jul-07, 11:30 PM
Actually, that's a good example of a really "white" lie. I mean, the fact that magicians trick us (by lying, essentially) is delightful and entertaining.
One definition of when it is "all right" to lie is if the person being lied-to would genuinely appreciate your deception after-the-fact. Magicians are one example, surprise parties are another.

Trouble is, it is extremely open to abuse. "I didn't tell you about my affair with Biff because I knew it would hurt you." Yeah, right.

DaveC426913
2007-Jul-07, 11:59 PM
But one thing , in my personal opinion, is that Truth will Prevail no matter what or how a lie is concealed.

:neutral:

No fair. You must provide a timeline.

So if truth prevails in, say, a trillion years - you're golden?

Whirlpool
2007-Jul-08, 03:20 AM
The truth is you can handle a lie, the truth is you can't handle the truth.

By the way, thanks for the comment Mike. But , I have to comment on this one.
It's not the way it is, and I have to disagree on what you said.
Truth and Lie , people can and can't handle. It depends. Why I say this.
There are levels of telling and knowing a Truth or Fact that can be beneficial to a person or an organization OR at the same time can destroy.
This is goes with LIE, concealing Truth , thus coming up with a different story , or whatever you may have done with it to cover up something. It can also beneficial because of a person you are protecting , especially if that person is a public figure, or an organization or business type.

Whereas , when it comes to a personal life of a person , that is also another level. You know what I mean. It depends on how a person will take it .
For example:
I was rush to the hospital. The doctors found something. The Doctors have to tell the Truth. The Doctor talk to my mom and told his diagnosis. I have cancer, I have only 6 months to live. Mom didn't tell me that, instead, she just said , I'm alright. It's just that my body is weak and needed rest.
So I thought I'm ok and I go on with my life.
Mom has a reason why she lied, but that that doesn't mean I can't handle the truth.

This is only an example . I don't have cancer. :p

So, I think It doesn't apply in general.


DaveC426913--So if truth prevails in, say, a trillion years - you're golden?

Yes, there's no timeline. It can be after a several generation , or it can be a couple of years after. BUT the bottomline is .. Truth always Prevails.

:neutral:

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-08, 03:45 AM
Thank you Whirlpool for you describe living exceptionally well and that it is about making the best possible choice.

I am exceedingly harsh when truth is used as a basis for society, but do agree that people should endeavour to do their best to live within the truth.

As far as truth and society go and why truth may take a more universal time frame I came up with these:-

The truth is a rare and precious commodity and like any commodity it has a price.

The truth is that progress is the ability to tell the truth and then change the mind, it also means the ability to change the mind and then tell the truth.
The truth is this only applies to living people and the ones we elect.
The truth is that we all live in the real world, however because of drugs, alcohol and on-line virtual games less and less people are living in the real world.
The truth is not a point of view it is a point of fact.

The truth is animals find punishment and reform mutually exclusive.
The truth is prisons and prisoners have a mutual obligation to both punishment and reform.
The truth is the task is split requiring prisons to punish and prisoners to reform.
The truth is the prison system would damage animals.

The truth is justice comes at a high price.
The truth is that price is going up.
The truth is the price of justice makes it a very attractive proposition.
The truth is justice at any price is not attractive.

The truth is that life is a natural condition that is a gift.
The truth is somehow that gift of life naturally comes a cost.
The truth is that in real life it costs more to produce items of quality and durability.
The truth is as the real costs go up it, it decreases the quality and durability of life.

The truth is that education commits both teacher and student to teaching and learning.
The truth is this does not excuse the state of the sink in the student mind and the teaching staff kitchen.
The truth is at some stage both teacher and student will say it was better in their day.
The truth is that education is a means of measuring academic progress.

The truth is that to have your cake and eat it too actually requires two or more cakes.
The truth is that rights and freedom are mutually exclusive.
The truth is that taking a moral stand is the quickest way to be discredited.
The truth is that failing to take a moral stand yields the same result.

The truth is lust is a sin.
The truth is gluttony is a sin.
The truth is greed is a sin.
The truth is sloth is a sin.

The truth is wroth is a sin.
The truth is envy is a sin.
The truth is pride is a sin.
The truth is that the seven deadly sins are the strongest desires that lead to action or lack thereof.

The truth is that free will must enable change.
The truth is enabling change is the application of the free will.
The truth is that the truth does not exist until it is discovered.
The truth is all knowing and unchanging when all things are all known and all unchanged.

The truth is that it is not possible to get ahead of the truth.
The truth is that it is extremely hard to keep up with the truth.
The truth is that it is harder to chase after the truth.
The truth is that the truth requires constant updating.

The truth is that, that given time the truth is a lie.

Delvo
2007-Jul-08, 04:20 AM
The truth is that people in this thread have now staretd adding "the truth is" before off-topic claims in long lists, apparently in order to try to make those claims sound more accurate, profound, and/or final/inarguable than they really are. :rolleyes:

Damien Evans
2007-Jul-08, 07:21 AM
The truth is that people in this thread have now staretd adding "the truth is" before off-topic claims in long lists, apparently in order to try to make those claims sound more accurate, profound, and/or final/inarguable than they really are. :rolleyes:

yep, that's truthieness for you;)

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-08, 12:59 PM
Well, a distinction should be made between what is truth for an individual, what is 'generally-accepted' consensus truth, and what is 'absolute' truth.

They may not all coincide. When an individual is telling a 'truth' that springs solely from his or her own view of the world, this 'truth' is called an 'opinion'. This opinion may or may not line up with generally-accepted consensus knowledge, but the individual in question is not 'lying' by expressing this opinion per se, if he or she genuinely believes what he or she is talking about.

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-08, 03:01 PM
Well, a distinction should be made between what is truth for an individual, what is 'generally-accepted' consensus truth, and what is 'absolute' truth.

They may not all coincide. When an individual is telling a 'truth' that springs solely from his or her own view of the world, this 'truth' is called an 'opinion'. This opinion may or may not line up with generally-accepted consensus knowledge, but the individual in question is not 'lying' by expressing this opinion per se, if he or she genuinely believes what he or she is talking about.

Hypothetically then.

A certain individual at the age of nine has a vivid recollection of being levitated above the bed he is resting on. In the process he overhears a conversation not directed at the child but understands the voice to be deep regal and clearly human.

The snippet of conversation overheard goes this way "this one well pleases me", the child is surprised and at a half metre or so above the bed says "are you sure you've got the right one?". At that point a bubble of existence closes around and collapses with the last sight of parts of a building clearly recognised but in actuality should have been a kilometre away.

The whole incident takes no more than eight seconds but leaves a profound impression. After all the sentence is somewhat backwards in words and the voice with the tone of simply being the owner of property. That child grows up with the understanding the technology for such an occurrence is not yet in existence and so must be from a human future.

On that basis and not just that alone I can truthfully say I have failed dismally to explain the events of that night.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-08, 03:08 PM
Hypothetically then.

A certain individual at the age of nine has a vivid recollection of being levitated above the bed he is resting on. In the process he overhears a conversation not directed at the child but understands the voice to be deep regal and clearly human.

The snippet of conversation overheard goes this way "this one well pleases me", the child is surprised and at a half metre or so above the bed says "are you sure you've got the right one?". At that point a bubble of existence closes around and collapses with the last sight of parts of a building clearly recognised but in actuality should have been a kilometre away.

The whole incident takes no more than eight seconds but leaves a profound impression. After all the sentence is somewhat backwards in words and the voice with the tone of simply being the owner of property. That child grows up with the understanding the technology for such an occurrence is not yet in existence and so must be from a human future.

On that basis and not just that alone I can truthfully say I have failed dismally to explain the events of that night.


Um, wha?? :confused::confused:

Please clarify that one. Are you speaking of something you experienced as a child?

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-08, 03:19 PM
Um, wha?? :confused::confused:

Please clarify that one. Are you speaking of something you experienced as a child?


This is something I am very well aware of but for very strong reasons will not declare anything other than that. I believe all I can truthfully give is an apology for my total and utter failure to able to explain what occurred.

Paracelsus
2007-Jul-08, 03:24 PM
Understood. Was just asking. :)

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-08, 03:34 PM
Thankyou Paracelsus

Gillianren
2007-Jul-08, 06:35 PM
The truth is that people in this thread have now staretd adding "the truth is" before off-topic claims in long lists, apparently in order to try to make those claims sound more accurate, profound, and/or final/inarguable than they really are. :rolleyes:

The truth is, I stopped reading them long since.

Delvo
2007-Jul-08, 09:19 PM
OK, now "the truth is" that one typographical error I committed in my last post has been reproduced by quotation TWICE! :doh::wall:

I don't understand why you posted the stroy, Michael Noonan. What is its connection with the subject here? Is it meant as an example of something that some people say is true and others say isn't? Was it supposed to go in some other thread?

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-09, 07:07 AM
OK, now "the truth is" that one typographical error I committed in my last post has been reproduced by quotation TWICE! :doh::wall:

I don't understand why you posted the story, Michael Noonan. What is its connection with the subject here? Is it meant as an example of something that some people say is true and others say isn't? Was it supposed to go in some other thread?

Well almost quoted, the spell check corrected a word.

It is to show why it is so hard for truth to be told. I tell what I believe to be true. Having something unaccountable has given me a very different outlook on life. I am very keen to listen to others without being judgemental.

It leaves me very open to the skepticism of others and I get caught and am the butt of some humour because of it. This last incident is something I have kept to myself but it gives me the reason to listen to and give the benefit of the doubt (electric monk) ability more than some.

One also tries to know when and where to tell the more inner most details of life. This forum wont try to foist an alternate belief system on me for something I can't prove and therefore can't defend, disbelief and/or laughter is easier to live with.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-09, 10:19 AM
If I'm not allowed to lie, I'd have to say that those "the truth is" statements on average are at the top range of arrogant nonsense I've read in quite a while.

(the absolute top in the last week was someone stating as fact without further source or argument that the earth turned in changing orbits around the sun and the way it influenced our climate in a multiyear cycle as we all learned in primary school, I correcting him by saying that he means the 11 year solar activity cycle but that our yearly orbit is quite constant, and that you learn it in secondary school. The same story for some other, unrelated claims he made in his post. I corrected, with supporting sources. His only reply was that I do not give arguments (selectively blind!) for my nonsense and must research better. After asking him 5 times to give counterarguments for my claims or the sources I got them from, to back up his own claims or simply admit he was mixing things, I still was totally ignored, so I concluded his ego was a bit larger than his social and discussion qualities. You may continue now, rant over.)

Maksutov
2007-Jul-09, 10:26 AM
yep, that's truthieness for you;)Yup. (http://blogs.southflorida.com/citylink_dansweeney/colbert.jpg)

Michael Noonan
2007-Jul-09, 10:32 AM
If I'm not allowed to lie, I'd have to say that those "the truth is" statements on average are at the top range of arrogant nonsense I've read in quite a while.


So did I get it all wrong then?

Maybe that would explain why I have so much trouble trying to understand the world I am living in.

Nicolas
2007-Jul-09, 10:55 AM
The whole point that there is a "whole wrong" or "whole true" when making an overly generalised statement about themes that are subjective in the first place. The amount of "but in this case" and "depends on how you deal with it" and the like makes most of the themes touched in the "the truth is" claims absoutely incompatible with truth or lie. "the truth is" should be read as "I had this abstract thought and express it as an opinion only". But of course, that doesn't make it as catchy.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:05 PM
...and wasn't there something 'major' written about Howard Hughes later proved a fabrication after publication? (Details hazy---diary, will?)

Yes, and then there is the book about the fake autobiography, titled HOAX, which is actually quite good.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:14 PM
Actually, that's a good example of a really "white" lie. I mean, the fact that magicians trick us (by lying, essentially) is delightful and entertaining. I'd be pretty disappointed if the magician said, "and now I'll put this coin into my hand -- well actually, I didn't put it in my hand, I hid it in my sleeve..." We know we're being lied to, and yet that's the whole point of it.

Funny. I can see it now; some magician onstage about to do an act.

"And now ladies and gentlemen, I will transport myself from inside this box to a special place somewhere else in the theatre. Actually, I'm going to slip out thru a hidden panel, drop thru a trap door in the stage, run out the back entrance of the theatre, zip around the block, maybe stopping for a slice of pizza, come back in the side door and while the lights are dimmed take a seat next to Paul in the band - but please try to act surprised."

Actually, done with the proper delivery, and a couple sight gags thrown in, it could be very funny.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:17 PM
I saw a sitcom once where two people were telling each other about themselves. The woman says that she's a compulsive liar. The man says, "Really?" and the woman replies, "No. You see?" :lol:

One of my favorite movie lines, I think from something with Steve Martin:

Guy: "You're lying."
Gal: "How can you tell?"
Guy: "Your lips are moving."

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:34 PM
And the best statistic about lying is how many times the average person does it in a day. It's 32, which is probably more sentences than I usually speak to other people. Of course, that number was a lie (I don't remember the actual number, though I was told by an intelligence agent once that it was in that ballpark). Just trying to fill my quota.

Seriously, try to count your lies one day. Be honest about it. The result will be shocking.

That's an interesting statistic, and an interesting challenge. I think whatever lies I might tell are barely even perceptible to myself; the kind mostly told so as to not waste time being truthful. For instance some street person asks if I have change I could give them. I say no, which is a lie, but I only do it to save me the time, and him the headache of having to listen, to my discourse on why I do not just give away money to strangers; regardless of their economic strata.

My goal is zero lies, but I probably fail on average a couple times per day with the type mentioned above. I am confident that I have lots of days with absolutely no lies. I can say, without any reservation, I do not tell lies meant to deceive or manipulate people, or to give myself false standing. Being honest is the fundamental principle by which I live. I have spent my entire adult life trying to figure out Those Darn Humans, and getting to the core of how people present themselves, be it in truth or falsehoods; appears to me to be the key.

And I still fall back to my original premise that it is all about looking good and the fear of what people will think. Especially in the middle classes, where most are insecure & uptight, and overly concern themselves with putting on for sake of image & appearance.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:41 PM
The truth is there is less than half a chance we will see the year 2100 because of this.

The truth is even if "results" do come through they wont switch off the particle accelerators.

The truth is a child dies at a rate of less than every three seconds because of poverty.

The truth is blind, uncaring, inconsiderate and lives in a world without meaning.

Don't know about you (you could be relatively young and might live to be very old) but there is a very close to zero chance I will see 2100.

But seriously, that last statement is puzzling. In my book, the truth is not sentient. It does not see, care, or consider. It just is. The fact that you state such things, and then tack on that the world has no meaning makes me wonder why you think that.

If you do not mind telling.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Jul-09, 01:49 PM
If I'm not allowed to lie, I'd have to say that those "the truth is" statements on average are at the top range of arrogant nonsense I've read in quite a while.

I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and saying it was poetry, not truths being declared.

The story recalling the levitating experience reminds me of one of my favorite sayings:

"It's a perception being shared, not a truth being declared."

People's perceptions are the truth about what they believe, but are personal in nature and in no way universal.

Lurker
2007-Jul-09, 04:31 PM
Funny. I can see it now; some magician onstage about to do an act.

"And now ladies and gentlemen, I will transport myself from inside this box to a special place somewhere else in the theatre. Actually, I'm going to slip out thru a hidden panel, drop thru a trap door in the stage, run out the back entrance of the theatre, zip around the block, maybe stopping for a slice of pizza, come back in the side door and while the lights are dimmed take a seat next to Paul in the band - but please try to act surprised."

Actually, done with the proper delivery, and a couple sight gags thrown in, it could be very funny.
Actually I like the approach of Penn & Teller they tell you that they are going to fool you and that there is no magic involved but they don't tell you their secrets. Honest and Fun... :)

DaveC426913
2007-Jul-10, 01:41 AM
Hypothetically then.

A certain individual at the age of nine has
The term you want is "swim" i.e. someone who isn't me

Swim, at the age of nine has a vivid recollection...

:)


(Learned that from a particular forum where members can't afford to confess responsibility for any actions they post about)

Van Rijn
2007-Jul-10, 02:04 AM
The truth is that people in this thread have now staretd adding "the truth is" before off-topic claims in long lists, apparently in order to try to make those claims sound more accurate, profound, and/or final/inarguable than they really are. :rolleyes:

The truth is that I skip past long lists that start with "The truth is . . . ."

sarongsong
2007-Aug-14, 11:03 PM
August 14, 2007
FOX is shooting a game show proving the old adage that it doesn't pay to lie. Or does it?...Call it "Squirm TV" of the most uncomfortable kind. "The show came from my growing disgust at how dishonest this world is becoming," says Howard Schultz, the L.A.- based producer who created the show...
New York Post (http://www.nypost.com/seven/08142007/tv/lie_detector_tv_michael_starr.htm):wall:

Lurker
2007-Aug-14, 11:07 PM
:wall:
Reality TV for the truth...

I'm gunna to get a Canadian passport... :doh:

pilgrim
2007-Aug-16, 04:30 PM
First off, I rarely lie. It's not because I would be fundamentally against the concept, it's because, on average, it saves time not to lie. Mostly, I don't see a reason to lie. I could lie to people I don't care about, but why go into so much trouble over people who mean nothing to me. And as for the people I care for, it's more likely they'll spend enough time with me for the lie to be rendered inconvenient (I'm leaving direct ethics out of this argument). Having said that, I do lie sometimes, though mostly it's the sort where you refrain from voicing your opinion as opposed to giving a false one. I nearly lost my best friend because I voiced a very negative opinion of her actions very strongly once and I do not plan to repeat that experience. I do agree that it is better to be surrounded by people with whom you have honesty as the primary dinamic of your relationship, but in some cases the question becomes not only about honesty but also about the kind of a friend you are to them. You have people (I'm actually related to one) who can reduce the people they love into insecure, wounded wrecks by their brutal honesty. That's why I believe sometimes saying nothing is a better option than emotional buldozering.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Aug-16, 06:02 PM
The answer to the OP is:

Cuz.

That's 5.

Noclevername
2007-Aug-17, 01:50 AM
Honesty need not be "brutal." What about polite, well-worded honesty?

(Honestly, my honesty is usually brutal, but not on purpose. I just lack subtlety. But theoretically, it's possible. I've seen it done.)

sarongsong
2007-Aug-17, 04:29 AM
Ah---the Cary Grant (for one) approach! http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

pilgrim
2007-Aug-17, 09:29 AM
Honesty need not be "brutal." What about polite, well-worded honesty?

(Honestly, my honesty is usually brutal, but not on purpose. I just lack subtlety. But theoretically, it's possible. I've seen it done.)

See, you put your finger on the problem, 'well-worded'. That expects me to be a lot more eloquent than I actually am. Plus, once again, when you are frustrated or even angry, tact does not rank high in your honesty delivery. Thus I keep quiet since it's much easier to say something than unsay it. Also not saying something, which has been considered on par with lying earlier on in the thread, means I get to keep at least some personal things private...

Michael Noonan
2007-Aug-19, 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Michael Noonan
The truth is a child dies at a rate of less than every three seconds because of poverty.

The truth is blind, uncaring, inconsiderate and lives in a world without meaning.

But seriously, that last statement is puzzling. In my book, the truth is not sentient. It does not see, care, or consider. It just is. The fact that you state such things, and then tack on that the world has no meaning makes me wonder why you think that.

If you do not mind telling.

This thread again, sorry I was seething when I posted it. I feel like it is my fault for seeing a different path and not being able to get to it, one that in time I may or may not be called to answer questions on.

I don't have the tact or the ability to explain why I see something as neutral as the truth as blind, uncaring and inconsiderate but to me it is. I see it as a way of learning from experience both good and bad and I mean really bad. I just can't help but feel so utterly angry about it.

For me a world with meaning would have truth understood without the need to experience the harm that goes with the learning. Children do die in poverty and that is not a truth I will ever be comfortable with.

Lurker
2007-Aug-19, 10:31 PM
For me a world with meaning would have truth understood without the need to experience the harm that goes with the learning. Children do die in poverty and that is not a truth I will ever be comfortable with.
Ahhh... but the truth is not a living entity... we are living entities... we are responsible for many of the truths that surround us..