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View Full Version : OA vs. dune - who will win?



m1omg
2007-Jul-04, 03:06 PM
A wormhole is suddely opening in the heart of the Terragen sphere.....and ships full with Emperor's Saraudakar are heading with superluminal speeds toward Inner Sphere, paranoid of "thinking machines" they will start war....AI gods, wormholes, nanotech, picotech, femtotech, devices, weapons using these technolgies + projectile and particle weaponry and intelligent and informational weapons, nuclear weapons boosted with magnetic monopoles vs. hyperhuman on spice "God Emperor", Saraudukar, lasguns (laser pistols),shields blocking "slow" projectiles, shields + lasgun "nuke" (illegal in all Dune universe but if "thinking machines" are the enemy...), "stone burner" focused nukes that will focus a nuclear explosion into a tight point and larger of them could burn through the planetary core and destroy it, also blinding everyone around that explosion,
focused sound - sonic - weapons, Vulcan railguns and conventional weapons, but with extremely fast FTL Holtzman drive and "Mentats" human computers.

Who will win?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-04, 03:34 PM
Who will win?


Depends on the writer.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-04, 03:46 PM
This thread, and the other Dune/OA thread, definitely belong under Off Topic Babbling.

eburacum45
2007-Jul-04, 03:46 PM
OA abandoned 'us vs them' threads long ago, mostly because the physical laws in different fictional universes are not compatible. The Holtzman drive and scrambling effect wouldn't work in the OA Universe, limiting the Duniverse people to slower than light. If a fleet of STL dune starships invaded the Inner Sphere the OA archailects would pick them off with long range starbeams.

On the other hand the OA Archailects would be at a disadvantage in the Duniverse, where every faction has FTL but they do not. So they would be quickly picked off, unless they could reverse engineer a FTL spaceship in short order. Which may be possible, depending on how logical and reproducible the Holtzman drive is and how badly effected the Transapients would be by the Holzman effect.

A probable draw, if you ask me.

Gillianren
2007-Jul-04, 06:03 PM
Honestly? I found "who will win?" discussions childish when I was seven.

m1omg
2007-Jul-04, 06:04 PM
OA abandoned 'us vs them' threads long ago, mostly because the physical laws in different fictional universes are not compatible. The Holtzman drive and scrambling effect wouldn't work in the OA Universe, limiting the Duniverse people to slower than light. If a fleet of STL dune starships invaded the Inner Sphere the OA archailects would pick them off with long range starbeams.

On the other hand the OA Archailects would be at a disadvantage in the Duniverse, where every faction has FTL but they do not. So they would be quickly picked off, unless they could reverse engineer a FTL spaceship in short order. Which may be possible, depending on how logical and reproducible the Holtzman drive is and how badly effected the Transapients would be by the Holzman effect.

A probable draw, if you ask me.

Huh, try to ignore physical law differences.
This thread is meant to be for fun not some seroius philosophy like my transhumanism debate.

m1omg
2007-Jul-04, 06:06 PM
Assume that FTL work in OA universe on Dune starships.
Also OA AI will have it's own "FTL" - wormhole links all over the galaxy.
And because the Dune starships will invade OA, OA AI will have it's wormholes and because AI are itself computers they would have technological advantage over Dune ships who will do not have enough spice for feeding the Navigators that are needed for Holzman FTL because they do not use navigation computers and they will soon run into trouble - on the other hand, they will probably have some stockpile of spice onboard because they will not go without spice to spiceless universe.

m1omg
2007-Jul-04, 06:16 PM
OA abandoned 'us vs them' threads long ago, mostly because the physical laws in different fictional universes are not compatible. The Holtzman drive and scrambling effect wouldn't work in the OA Universe, limiting the Duniverse people to slower than light. If a fleet of STL dune starships invaded the Inner Sphere the OA archailects would pick them off with long range starbeams.

On the other hand the OA Archailects would be at a disadvantage in the Duniverse, where every faction has FTL but they do not. So they would be quickly picked off, unless they could reverse engineer a FTL spaceship in short order. Which may be possible, depending on how logical and reproducible the Holtzman drive is and how badly effected the Transapients would be by the Holzman effect.

A probable draw, if you ask me.

Well, if the AIs invaded Duniverse they will reverse engineer that drive very fastly - it is said that ordinary human is not able to understand Holtzman equations but Holtzman itself was just a very bright human - so the godllike Archialects will have no problem to reverse engineer the Holtzman drive and with all their technology they would kick Emperor's ***:lol: .
But if Duniverse ships invaded OA universe...

P.S: What are starbeams?

Doctor Know
2007-Jul-04, 06:21 PM
I've seen "who coulda won if things were different" discussions on history and gaming boards. Those can get tedious. But translating that discussion into races and ships that exist only in people's imaginations or in media is rather rarified stuff. Guess we could start a discussion on whether H.G. Well's Martians could kick the stuffing out of Edgar Rice Burrough's Barsoomian ones.

Musashi
2007-Jul-04, 09:01 PM
Have you seen this one, it is a great template:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=12855

Noclevername
2007-Jul-04, 10:26 PM
P.S: What are starbeams?

The entire output of a star focussed into a beam.

Roy Batty
2007-Jul-06, 02:39 PM
Have you seen this one, it is a great template:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=12855

NOOOOOO!!! not again! :lol:

What the hell is OA anyway?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-06, 02:49 PM
NOOOOOO!!! not again! :lol:

What the hell is OA anyway?


Thus. (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=1022068&postcount=25)

Tucson_Tim
2007-Jul-06, 04:58 PM
The entire output of a star focussed into a beam.

That seems easy enough. :)

captain swoop
2007-Jul-06, 09:50 PM
Honestly? I found "who will win?" discussions childish when I was seven.

Ewven more so when it comes to one sci fi book versus another.

23rd Estate
2007-Jul-08, 06:58 AM
I guess no one's been to the VS. section (http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4) of the Space Battles forums (http://forum.spacebattles.com/).

eburacum45
2007-Jul-08, 09:50 AM
I have visited that forum on occasion; I suppose such a phenomenon is inevitable when so many sci-fi universes place emphasis on the battle prowess of their spacecraft.

But I really can only re-iterate that different universes have different (invented) sets of physical laws, and so cross-overs are not possible.
The Orion's Arm Universe (I'm one on the contributors, as some of you know) has almost the same physical laws as our own, except that wormholes can be created using exotic energy; this may also be the case in our universe, but scientific opinion is a little divided. The other main departure in the OA universe from our universe is the existence of monopolium, a theoretical high density material first suggested by Hans Moravec in 1979 here (http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/~hpm/project.archive/general.articles/1981/monpol.mss); this may also exist in our universe, but may not.

The Dune universe includes a number of exotic scientific and psychic principles which are probably not physical in our universe; the Holtzman effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holtzman_effect) is the main example, a phenomenon probably not part of the laws of our universe. The Holtzmann drive requires prescience to operate- this may also be absent from our universe. Opinion is once again divided.

Hi-tech devices from one universe would not work in the other- so all comparisons are futile.

23rd Estate
2007-Jul-08, 05:11 PM
True. However, the fascinating (and utterly nerdy) aspect of these debates is that they eventually reach incredibly detailed levels of analysis, exhibit A-


Uhm no. In Consider Phelbas a rather out of date ROU (300 meters long) has its engines pumping out a few percentage of a star (something around e24-e25 joules. That means its at LEAST as good as a Venator, in a far smaller package, if not better (and it might be like most other "external tap universeS".) By those factors alone its going to be more powerful (they have far bigger ships and far more modern ones anyhow.)

Displacers and effectors in range, the ability to sit in hyperspace and engage, and insane reactoin times give them even more advantages.

The term 'infinite energy' (I prefer "indefinite energy' since nothing is really infinite) is misleading. This simply means they have far far greater power reserves to draw on (thus giving them greater endurance.) whereas a SW's ship is limited by how much fuel it can carry (it runs a reactor.)

40K IoM isn't even close to being BETTER than the culture - they're close in terms of power generation to the Empire (depending on calcs, about within an order of magnitude) but they aren't any more above Culture level than the Empire is. On the other hand, they also have the Culture's advantage of an 'extermal power tap" (or rather, its using the "plasma reactors" as a catalyst for tapping even greater amounts of energy frm another sourcee, probably the Warp.) So they, like the Culture, have greater endurancec than a SW vessel as well. (they're also insanely durable, able to stand up to minutes or hours of their own weapons fire before being destroyed. And even then its not catastrophic unless there's a reactor or plasma/warp engine breach.)

Edit: and if I remember what they utilized/expended in the Indiran War, they expended far more in terms of materials/resources than the Empire has, AFAIK.

Exhibit B- Orion's Arm vs. (http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=93259)

Exhibit C-

Lets see, todays earth has almost six ( or did we crossed it ?) bilion humans and 26 milion professional soldiers worldwide, following the simple math Zerg were a threat to a planet with 104 milion troops.

Given that Skynet is capable of mass producing his own armies i see no reason why cant he churn out say 20 milion termies which are individually far far superior to any infantry ( and many vehicles ) SC has and will ceirtanly shrug of a 5 to 1 numeric advantage.

Oh and T - 800 survived a hydraulic press, thats orders more durable than any marine armor, so not only will Zerg face combatants practically impervious to most their units and armed with compact plasma canons but if they face mass produced T-1000 they are screwed, you have no proof that plauge will work and how the hell is it supposed to work on non-organics ?

Of course apart from being nuked into oblivion and facing combatants with more firepower than a SC walker and tougher than a bloody protoss dragon the Zerg have to contend with Skynets relatively easy resupply, a T-800 goes off the assembly line as fast as zergs are hatched and being far superior.

Oh and T-1000 couldnt punch through T-800 because T-800 was made of materials calable of whitstanding a hydraulic press which is a device that has many tons of pressure per each meter of its surface so obviously while Skynet has no space assets its land assets are orders of magnitude beyond anything SC could have.

Now that's nerdiness.

Gillianren
2007-Jul-08, 06:49 PM
Good Gods.

I can be a total nerd, I admit, and I'm fairly geeky about a fair number of things, too, but that? Yeesh. Imagine what they could do by using all that energy to create.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-08, 07:40 PM
They're using it to create imaginary space battles. And to create winning and losing scenarios.

Put it this way. Every hour they waste on these minutae is one less hour that they could be devoting to engineering computer viruses or inventing doomsday weapons. ;)

Gillianren
2007-Jul-08, 10:03 PM
Point taken.

SkepticJ
2007-Jul-09, 06:28 AM
Hi-tech devices from one universe would not work in the other- so all comparisons are futile.

Oh, just wait until someone suggests that the ships, weapons etc. somehow magically follow the laws of their respective universes while being in another universe.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-09, 03:41 PM
Oh, just wait until someone suggests that the ships, weapons etc. somehow magically follow the laws of their respective universes while being in another universe.


Post # 7.

m1omg
2007-Jul-11, 04:18 PM
"I've been reading some OA, and the whole setting just seems annoyingly quasi-utopian inhuman, just like most posthumanism stuff. Also, all of the attempts to make the universe seem really, really grand just annoys the hell out of me. So, I was wondering which universes against OA would make a good fight?

I'm thinking about "future human feudalist galactic empires", where humans are at the top of the food chain, and pretty much human (since there might be neo-medieval Luddite movements around). As amusing it would be for OA to fight a real transhuman race (the Culture, Xelee, etc.), it's more amusing to have OA to fight baseline humans with really, really powerful weaponry."

bulls***, plucky baseline complex is the most annoying thing in scifi

Noclevername
2007-Jul-11, 05:03 PM
bulls***, plucky baseline complex is the most annoying thing in scifi

1) Don't swear.
2) Annoying is purely a matter of opinion. His is a "right" as yours.

publiusr
2007-Aug-10, 03:44 PM
OA seems pretty hard to beat on the face of it.

Alasdhair
2007-Aug-10, 05:53 PM
Are there any OA novels?

I suspect the revenue stream from the Dune franchise will surpass OA's for some time yet.

eburacum45
2007-Aug-12, 11:38 AM
OA consists of user-generated content, like many other Internet sites; I suspect that user-generated content will become more sophisticated and widespread as the potential of the Internet is explored in the coming decades.
Unlike Dune, OA is written, mapped and illustrated by on-line contributors. Collaborative media will almost certainly become increasingly important in the near future, or so it seems to me, and the tools available to produce such media will also become more sophisticated as time goes by.