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Peter B
2002-Feb-25, 02:53 AM
I’ve just been reading Stephen Baxter’s “Titan”, and I have to say I’ve never seen a worse case of plagiarism.

At least four passages in the book, ranging from a couple of sentences to a section about a page long, are clearly lifted from the Murray and Cox book “Apollo – The Race to the Moon”. It’s not just that the Baxter passages are based on Murray and Cox’s writing, but that he uses identical phrases, numbers and terms, in exactly the same way. And despite his extensive acknowledgements of assistance, these two authors aren’t mentioned.

The passages are:

1. A description of combustion instability in the F1 engine, including the term “racetrack effect”;

2. The mating of the first and second stages of a Saturn V, including the number of pins used to join the stages, their lengths and intervals, and the time taken to make the connections.

3. The Countdown Demonstration Test, including the amount of time scheduled for the test, the amount of time actually taken for the test, the nature of the problems faced by the mission controllers, and their responses to the problems. (This was the longest lift.)

4. The retraction of the swing arms on the launch of a Saturn 5.

Given that Baxter appears to be a fairly prolific writer, and that I’ve found four passages from one other book reproduced in one of his books, this raises the question of how many other times he’s plagiarised other authors’ work, both in “Titan” and in his other books.

Has anyone noticed this before? This is fair dinkum disgusting, and whatever reputation Baxter might’ve had in my eyes is permanently lost. I’d recommend no one should buy his books if there was even the slightest suggestion that this behaviour was common.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter B on 2002-02-24 21:55 ]</font>

kucharek
2002-Feb-25, 09:04 AM
Are you sure that Murray & Cox are the originators of the quotes? Maybe they are also just quoting from the same source that is now quoted also by Baxter. You know what I mean? Just an idea...

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Feb-25, 10:06 AM
On 2002-02-25 04:04, kucharek wrote:
Are you sure that Murray & Cox are the originators of the quotes? Maybe they are also just quoting from the same source that is now quoted also by Baxter. You know what I mean? Just an idea...

Are they quotes even?

"he uses identical phrases, numbers and terms, in exactly the same way" is a charge that could be made against every calculus book I've ever read. I'd like to see a couple sentences that Peter B thinks are examples of plagiarized work.

Peter B
2002-Feb-25, 11:42 PM
Yeah, no worries. I'll post something tomorrow.

I see the point people are making, and I suppose I could've been a bit hasty. But there's a bit of a difference between calculus text books (where you hope the figures are the same all the time) and literary works (where originality appears to be appreciated).

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Feb-26, 12:05 AM
There is a difference, of course, in what we expect from technical books and what we expect from literary works, but I'm pretty sure that the standards for plagiarism are about the same.

You can plagarize ideas, but that may or may not be illegal. Just look at all the TV series clones that follow the heels of whatever latest hit show.

Peter B
2002-Mar-02, 02:48 AM
I suppose my point is that if someone writes a work of fiction based on something that's already happened, you can write your own words, or you can quote from primary and secondary sources. What you can't do is use the words from those sources, but pretend they're your own words.

IMHO, there are plenty of examples of this last situation in Baxter's book, but I don't want to incur the BA's wrath by wholesale quoting.

So I'll just put in these two paragraphs, one from each book (please BA).

Murray & Cox: So now the men in Management Row simultaneously swivelled around in their chairs – they got stuck if they didn’t do it together – and put binoculars to their eyes. Through the bank of windows at the back of the Launch Control Centre, they watch Pad 39A. Petrone kept his hand near the button that would close protective louvers over the windows in the Saturn V blew up, though he always suspected that, if it happened, he would just keep watching instead.

Baxter: In the Firing Room, the spectators in Management Row swivelled around and lifted binoculars to their eyes, and peered through the row of windows at the back of the Launch Control Centre. White knew they could close protective louvers over the windows if the booster blew up. If it did, the explosion would be equivalent to a three or four megaton nuclear bomb. But he figured that if that happened, the guys in here would just keep watching anyhow.

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Mar-02, 10:02 AM
On 2002-02-24 21:53, Peter B wrote:
I’ve just been reading Stephen Baxter’s “Titan”, and I have to say I’ve never seen a worse case of plagiarism.
That is hard to believe, actually. I've seen whole paragraphs cut-and-paste. I'm pretty sure that the paragraphs quoted don't even satisfy the legal definition of plagiarism, but I am not a lawyer, so...

Perhaps the two paragraphs are both based on another source? Hence, the lack of particular attribution?

Peter B
2002-Mar-04, 08:17 AM
Well, Grapes, I can't argue with your experiences, and I'm sure you're right. But again, the point I make is that Baxter is writing fiction, in other words, a story of something that never happened, or will never happen. There are plenty of works of fiction based on historical texts, but usually only for working out the plot. I've never seen a work of fiction lifting paragraphs at a time, doing little more than swapping a few words and phrases around.

As to whether both books source from a third, I think that's unlikely. The Murray and Cox book was written in the late 80s, based on interviews by the authors and NASA historians. It's essentially a history of NASA's efforts to get astronauts to the Moon. Baxter's book was written in the late 90s, inspired by, presumably, his own imagination, but based on work by people he acknowledges.

[WARNING - PLOT SPOILER]

Just as another example, when an Apollo spacecraft lands on Titan, it goes through the same sequence of events that the ASTP Apollo spacecraft went through back in 1975: some automated landing sequence switched off, leading to the craft attempting to steady itself under parachutes using the RCS system, followed by a valve opening to allow air into the craft, which inadvertantly allowed RCS exhaust into the craft, followed by it landing upside down. Okay, it's dramatic, but it ain't original, so it ain't fiction.

Peter B
2002-Jul-21, 09:47 AM
Earlier in this thread, I speculated on whether Baxter's technique of lifting blocks of text from other books was unique to "Titan", or occurred in other books.

Well, I was having a little look at his book "Moonseed", and I saw mention of a garden sprinkler. Now this might seem innocuous enough, but the context was a Moon-bound astronaut watching a spent rocket stage venting fuel, and thinking it looked like a garden sprinkler. The interesting thing is that this exact description was used in Andrew Chaikin's "A Man on the Moon", I think by Frank Borman on Apollo 8.

This is now two fiction works of Baxter where he's lifted blocks of text from non-fiction books, without bothering to acknowledge those works, even though he acknowledges other people's works.

Sorry Baxter, that's plagiarism.

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Jul-21, 04:39 PM
On 2002-07-21 05:47, Peter B wrote:
The interesting thing is that this exact description was used in Andrew Chaikin's "A Man on the Moon", I think by Frank Borman on Apollo 8.

Exact? Do you mean, word for word? How many words?

Cloudy
2002-Jul-23, 04:14 AM
To me, Stephen Baxter's books

- have very stereotyped, nearly hatefull portrayals of religious people. This is extended to the military in "Titan".

- Have allot of forced dialog and shallow characters.

- Are not very believable. The people/institutions in the books do not seem to act realistically. At the very least, he does not do a good job of making what he writes seem plausible. Some examples the US airforce trying to shoot down the Titan mission(Titan), The country abandoning astronauts in space, and NASA surviving the destruction of the Earth(Moonseed). This just screams out for satire - if he rewrote the bible, this would be a passage:

"Heaven and Earth may pass away, but my favorite government agency never will."


Steven Baxter does not have the knowledge or feel for people and organizations that a real sci-fi writer should have. I would not be surprised if he plagiarized from his betters. The passages quoted above would be damning enough to earn him an "F" had his book been submitted for a grade where I went to college.

That being said, he picks fascinating topics - so fascinating that I sometimes cant help but read at least partway through his books. He is also a great "What if...." thinker, and has allot of real knowledge(He is an engineer) to back up his speculations.
If he only knew people as he knows science...


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cloudy on 2002-07-23 00:21 ]</font>

Rodina
2002-Jul-23, 09:02 PM
Well, I was having a little look at his book "Moonseed", and I saw mention of a garden sprinkler. Now this might seem innocuous enough, but the context was a Moon-bound astronaut watching a spent rocket stage venting fuel, and thinking it looked like a garden sprinkler. The interesting thing is that this exact description was used in Andrew Chaikin's "A Man on the Moon", I think by Frank Borman on Apollo 8....Sorry Baxter, that's plagiarism.


Although I agree with some of the literary criticisms of Baxter - I think much of current English science fiction is heaped anti-religious bigotry - this one doesn't fly without some additional proof.

Man on the Moon, looking at Barnes & Noble, came out March 1998. Moonseed came out September 1998. Most novels take about a year from initial acceptance to publication and while there are some rewrites of course, these dates would say that they overlapped in publication. So I'd need to see a little more and make sure that Baxter didn't draw from a similar resource as did Chaikin.

mallen
2002-Jul-24, 01:20 AM
Man on the Moon, looking at Barnes & Noble, came out March 1998. Moonseed came out September 1998. Most novels take about a year from initial acceptance to publication and while there are some rewrites of course, these dates would say that they overlapped in publication. So I'd need to see a little more and make sure that Baxter didn't draw from a similar resource as did Chaikin.


That's the one with the "From the Earth to the Moon" cover. The book was originally published in 1994. (I checked my copy).

Rodina
2002-Jul-24, 04:01 AM
On 2002-07-23 21:20, mallen wrote:


Man on the Moon, looking at Barnes & Noble, came out March 1998. Moonseed came out September 1998. Most novels take about a year from initial acceptance to publication and while there are some rewrites of course, these dates would say that they overlapped in publication. So I'd need to see a little more and make sure that Baxter didn't draw from a similar resource as did Chaikin.


That's the one with the "From the Earth to the Moon" cover. The book was originally published in 1994. (I checked my copy).


My bad. I must have been looking at a softcover edition.

Peter B
2002-Sep-24, 02:10 AM
Okay, here are some examples of what I consider Baxter just lifting blocks of text from someone else’s book, copying both the imagery (lawn sprinkler, hunting butterflies) and the events (venting gas from a tumbling stage, the bizarre behaviour of vomit in zero G):

Chaikin: “Already [the third stage] was spewing fans on brilliant ice particles into space, reminding Borman of a huge lawn sprinkler.”

Baxter: “The booster stack was dumping exhaust, spewing sheets of sparkling ice particles, sheets which spiralled out as the stage turned. It was like some immense lawn sprinkler, Henry thought.”

Or

Chaikin: “The episode was beginning to make Anders feel a bit sick himself, when suddenly he spotted a greenish sphere, about the size of a tennis ball, ascending slowly out of the equipment bay…But when it drifted closer he noticed that the blob was shimmering and pulsating in three directions at once in some kind of complex fluid vibration made possible in zero gravity. At that moment the scientist in him took over…suddenly the blob split in two. As if to affirm Newton’s laws of motion, the twin spawns headed away from each other in exactly opposite directions, giving Anders a sudden flash of recognition: Conservation of momentum! One scooted away whence it had come and the other headed right for Lovell. The man was cornered. The blob hit him of the chest and then, overcome by the forces of surface tension, spread out on his overalls as flat as a fried egg…What a mess – Lovell and Anders now had to help chase down stray bits of vomit and feces with paper towels. In a strange, detached way, Anders was reminded of hunting butterflies.”

Baxter: “But suddenly here was a greenish sphere, the size of a tennis ball, floating in space in front of him. It was oscillating slowly, thick and languid, pea-green and quite beautiful…Under some complex combination of surface tension and air currents, the loose sphere of puke broke in two. One half headed for the wall, the other for Geena… 'Conservation of momentum, I guess.' Geena was watching in horrified fascination. She didn’t seem to be able to move out of the way. The blob hit her square on her chest…Arkady came floating up from the descent module… 'Time to hunt butterflies, I think.'"

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Sep-24, 02:36 AM
On 2002-09-23 22:10, Peter B wrote:
Okay, here are some examples of what I consider Baxter just lifting blocks of text from someone else’s book
You keep saying things like that--"exact description", see above--but the re is a great difference between your examples and "lifting blocks of text."

'Time to hunt butterflies, I think.'"

I notice that you've used an ellipsis just before that 'quote'--what is the context? Why is it in quotations, is it a comment by a character? How is the comment set up?

Rodina
2002-Sep-24, 02:37 AM
If I saw the first one by itself, I wouldn't say much, but that second one is utterly damning.

Geeze.

Peter B
2002-Sep-24, 04:40 AM
On 2002-09-23 22:36, GrapesOfWrath wrote:


On 2002-09-23 22:10, Peter B wrote:
Okay, here are some examples of what I consider Baxter just lifting blocks of text from someone else’s book
You keep saying things like that--"exact description", see above--but the re is a great difference between your examples and "lifting blocks of text."


Okay, so mabye not *exact* copying. But we're talking the use of identical imagery, such as the lawn sprinkler analogy; we're talking the use of identical situations, such as the behaviour of the ball of vomit splitting in two, with one spawn-ball striking another astronaut in the chest; we're talking blocks of text which use common phrases, even if the order is changed. I think these are fairly convincing examples.

It's possible to make a comparison with fantasy and alternate history author Harry Turtledove. Turtledove wrote a series of fantasy books called "The Videssos Cycle". The Cycle created a fantasy world which closely resembled 11th century Byzantium, and the plot recreated Byzantine history of the late 11th century. But the text of the books is his own, and doesn't copy any Byzantine history book I've read (I've read a few, and they're mostly dry academic texts).

The point is that Baxter's book "Titan" reproduces text from Murray and Cox's book "Apollo", as well as recreating an incident from the Apollo Soyuz Test Program, and Baxter's book "Moonseed" reproduces text from Chaikin's book "A Man on the Moon." I can't come up with an exact algorithm to prove what I'm saying, but the similarity to me is too close to be an accident.



'Time to hunt butterflies, I think.'"

I notice that you've used an ellipsis just before that 'quote'--what is the context? Why is it in quotations, is it a comment by a character? How is the comment set up?


Yes, that sentence (Time to hunt butterflies...) is something the astronaut called Arkady says to the other two characters. To me, it's too similar to Bill Anders's thought as mentioned by Chaikin in his book.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter B on 2002-09-24 00:41 ]</font>

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Sep-24, 05:33 AM
How is the comment set up?

Peter B
2002-Sep-24, 07:06 AM
On 2002-09-24 01:33, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
How is the comment set up?


Chaikin: What a mess - Lovell and Anders had to help chase down stray bits of vomit and feces with paper towels. In a strange, detached way, Anders was reminded of hunting butterflies.

Baxter: The other lump of vomit reached a locker door now. Instead of sticking, it broke up into a dozen smaller globules, that rebounded and set off over the cabin.

Arkady came floating up from the descent module. 'I could smell - oh.' He laughed. 'Time to hunt butterflies, I think.'

He took a handful of wet wipes, and he and Geena started to chase over the cabin, snagging the vomit spheroids out of the air. Henry just hung there being still, trying not to worry about which way was up.

Rodina
2002-Sep-24, 12:41 PM
I don't know if it was Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten that said, "if you steal from one source - that's plagarism; if you steal from two sources - now that's research!"

n810
2002-Sep-24, 08:56 PM
Ok, plagurism aside ( I haven't read the books, but the evidence seems to point to bad things)-

What kind of idiot launches an Apollo rocket to Titan? and who wants to go to titan anyway? I won't be worth visiting for a few hundred million years. The best bet out there would be Europa, at least you could land a LEM (or would it be an EEM?) without worring about crushing atmospheric effects... But I digress, What kind of an idiot launches a Saturn V to send something out to Saturn? I mean I know it's called a Saturn rocket and all, but I don't think that was intended as a reference to it's final destination.

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Sep-25, 12:44 AM
What are Chaikin's list of sources for that?

Peter B
2002-Sep-25, 12:59 AM
On 2002-09-24 20:44, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
What are Chaikin's list of sources for that?


AFAIK, he either interviewed Bill Anders himself, or he relied on an interview of Anders by a NASA historian. (I don't have the book with me today.)

xriso
2002-Sep-25, 01:01 AM
I wouldn't necessarily jump to plagiarism, but there's no way that those two excerpts are independent of each other.

Peter B
2002-Sep-25, 01:07 AM
On 2002-09-24 16:56, n810 wrote:
What kind of idiot launches an Apollo rocket to Titan? and who wants to go to titan anyway? I won't be worth visiting for a few hundred million years. The best bet out there would be Europa, at least you could land a LEM (or would it be an EEM?) without worring about crushing atmospheric effects... But I digress, What kind of an idiot launches a Saturn V to send something out to Saturn? I mean I know it's called a Saturn rocket and all, but I don't think that was intended as a reference to it's final destination.

I suppose you'd have to read the book to get the sense. But it's not an Apollo Saturn launch to Titan. Instead it's a cobbled-together mission, using everything NASA has left after funding cuts.

So they launch a couple of refitted Apollo CMs, alter the Space Shuttle "Discovery", and add a few spare fuel tanks. Then they travel out to Saturn using a Venus-Earth-Jupiter gravity assist.

"Discovery" lands on Titan under autopilot, and the crew lands in the CMs. It's a one-way mission, with resupply intended to be sent by Delta rockets.

Why Titan? Because of what the Huygens probe discovers when it lands. (Of course, that's due to happen in a couple of years.)

The book's science is hard. But the social decay and the behaviour of characters on Earth is just unbelievable. Still, Baxter had to create such a setting in order to make the climax of the story logical.

n810
2002-Sep-25, 11:11 PM
Ok then... But why refit Discovery? If I were prepping a mission to the outer system, and had to use "off the shelf" gear, I'm thinking I'd probably go with the newest shuttle, as opposed to the oldest, and heaviest shuttle. Last I checked Discovery can't even make construction runs to Alpha because it's too heavy, they could barely even do crew exchanges with it (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am). AS to the landing on Titan with Discovery on automatic... Umm, I'll go read the book, but there better be aliens who put in a nice long runway for me to cope with that. Or do the bay doors open and release some giant parachutes?

Oh yeah, does NASA even have operational Apollo gear of any sort anymore? And who wants to fly all the way to titan in something with a computer to slow to even play pong on?

Arrgh! Sorry, it's just too inconcievable for me. The big steel plate launched by A-Bombs(Orion)in Footfall(Niven/Pounelle)was a lot easier to cope with.

Resupply with Deltas makes a little sense, but if the project is supposed to be off the shelf, I know there are a ton of Titan rockets sitting around, the humor in launching a Titan to Titan certainly wouldn't be lost on me.

Peter B
2002-Sep-26, 01:11 AM
On 2002-09-24 20:59, Peter B wrote:


On 2002-09-24 20:44, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
What are Chaikin's list of sources for that?


AFAIK, he either interviewed Bill Anders himself, or he relied on an interview of Anders by a NASA historian. (I don't have the book with me today.)


Okidoke. I've checked Chaikin's book. He doesn't specify one way or the other. Anders told his story either to Chaikin himself, or to NASA historians, who then passed this on to Chaikin.

And having had another read of Chaikin's book, I've noted passages where he echoes Murray and Cox. But the difference between what Chaikin does and what Baxter does is that the passages are short, they're often credited, and in any case Chaikin specifically mentions Murray and Cox's book as a valuable source at the start of his bibliography. Baxter does provide credits at the end of his books, but "Titan" makes no mention of Murray and Cox, and "Moonseed" makes no mention of Chaikin.

Peter B
2002-Sep-26, 01:37 AM
On 2002-09-25 19:11, n810 wrote:
Ok then... But why refit Discovery? If I were prepping a mission to the outer system, and had to use "off the shelf" gear, I'm thinking I'd probably go with the newest shuttle, as opposed to the oldest, and heaviest shuttle. Last I checked Discovery can't even make construction runs to Alpha because it's too heavy, they could barely even do crew exchanges with it (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am).

Why use "Discovery"? I think cos it's the only one left, or they gut the remaining shuttles to refit it. That would presumably allow it to be lighter. And another aspect of the refit was to fit wings of a different shape to allow it to glide in Titan's atmosphere, rather than Earth's.


AS to the landing on Titan with Discovery on automatic... Umm, I'll go read the book, but there better be aliens who put in a nice long runway for me to cope with that. Or do the bay doors open and release some giant parachutes?

The idea is that the Shuttle skids to a soft landing in the squishy mud which makes up the surface of Titan, and I think the reduced gravity would ease things as well. The more I think about it, the less I like it (what happens if the ground isn't perfectly flat?), but hey, it's fiction.


Oh yeah, does NASA even have operational Apollo gear of any sort anymore? And who wants to fly all the way to titan in something with a computer to slow to even play pong on?

Well, one of the astronauts finds out where all the remaining Apollo gear is stored, and it's hauled out and refitted. This includes the flight-capable Saturn on display at Cape Canaveral (or wherever it is). Frankly, *I* wouldn't be too trusting of hardware which has been sitting in the Florida sun for thirty-odd years while birds poop on it. Baxter has the hardware refitted, where I would've thought the expense of that would be comparable to building something new off the old plans anyway.


Arrgh! Sorry, it's just too inconcievable for me. The big steel plate launched by A-Bombs(Orion)in Footfall(Niven/Pounelle)was a lot easier to cope with.

You're right. But it *is* fiction. And now that I think of it, NASA wouldn't have the ground facilities to launch a Saturn 5 - didn't they cut down the old umbilical tower for the Shuttle?


Resupply with Deltas makes a little sense, but if the project is supposed to be off the shelf, I know there are a ton of Titan rockets sitting around, the humor in launching a Titan to Titan certainly wouldn't be lost on me.

Once again, I think fiction comes to the rescue - by the time the story is set, the USA has used up all its Titans, and hasn't built any more, and NASA is on the nose with the President and the military.

Like I said in an earlier posting, the social setting of the book is quite impossible. It has a *rabid* Christian fundamentalist elected President in 2008, who gets re-elected in 2012, and who tries to get the two-term rule overturned. Within this time: he manages to get all the science faculties in American universities closed; some Central American countries open up part of their jungle to allow people to live as hunter-gatherers; early Christian and Aristotelian cosmology becomes the only acceptable view of the universe (crystal spheres); the youth of the USA tunes out even more than they did in the 1960s; the USA releases a genetically modified disease in China which affects only Asian people; China sends an astronaut on a one-way mission to the asteroid belt to blast an asteroid onto an Earth-impacting trajectory (intended to hit the USA); and the Earth's biosphere heads for collapse. All that by 2016!

All highly unlikely, but all necessary for the climax of the book.

As I said in an earlier post, the science is pretty good, but the characters and the setting are just plain silly.

GrapesOfWrath
2002-Sep-26, 02:42 AM
On 2002-09-25 21:11, Peter B wrote:
Baxter does provide credits at the end of his books, but "Titan" makes no mention of Murray and Cox, and "Moonseed" makes no mention of Chaikin.

What sort of credits? Works of fiction often don't have bibliographies. Does he list any such sources?

Nightfall
2002-Sep-26, 04:13 AM
On 2002-09-25 22:42, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
What sort of credits? Works of fiction often don't have bibliographies. Does he list any such sources?


I do not know about Titan, but in Poul Anderson's book, Starfarers, Anderson gives acknowledgements in the front of the book. So it is not unheard of a fiction book to give credits to those who helped the writer with the basic ideas. Of course there are other times when this does not happen, unfortunatly.

Peter B
2002-Sep-26, 04:27 AM
On 2002-09-25 22:42, GrapesOfWrath wrote:
What sort of credits? Works of fiction often don't have bibliographies. Does he list any such sources?


Well, with "Moonseed", he referred readers to the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal, and thanked people who provided assistance with aspects of the science. Each of the fairly way-out bits of science is usually credited to someone.

David Hall
2002-Sep-26, 05:10 AM
A.C. Clarke very often adds long afterwards to discuss the points he wrote about in his novels, and acknowledges the sources.

Rodina
2002-Sep-26, 08:19 PM
On 2002-09-25 19:11, n810 wrote:
Ok then... But why refit Discovery? If I were prepping a mission to the outer system, and had to use "off the shelf" gear, I'm thinking I'd probably go with the newest shuttle, as opposed to the oldest, and heaviest shuttle. Last I checked Discovery can't even make construction runs to Alpha because it's too heavy, they could barely even do crew exchanges with it (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am).


This is all true of Columbia not Discovery which was the third shuttle delivered and does go to the ISS.

n810
2002-Sep-26, 10:55 PM
On 2002-09-26 16:19, Rodina wrote:


On 2002-09-25 19:11, n810 wrote:
Ok then... But why refit Discovery? If I were prepping a mission to the outer system, and had to use "off the shelf" gear, I'm thinking I'd probably go with the newest shuttle, as opposed to the oldest, and heaviest shuttle. Last I checked Discovery can't even make construction runs to Alpha because it's too heavy, they could barely even do crew exchanges with it (I may be wrong, please correct me if I am).


This is all true of Columbia not Discovery which was the third shuttle delivered and does go to the ISS.


Thanx! I knew it was one of them.

[/quote]
Like I said in an earlier posting, the social setting of the book is quite impossible. It has a *rabid* Christian fundamentalist elected President in 2008, who gets re-elected in 2012, and who tries to get the two-term rule overturned. Within this time: he manages to get all the science faculties in American universities closed; some Central American countries open up part of their jungle to allow people to live as hunter-gatherers; early Christian and Aristotelian cosmology becomes the only acceptable view of the universe (crystal spheres); the youth of the USA tunes out even more than they did in the 1960s; the USA releases a genetically modified disease in China which affects only Asian people; China sends an astronaut on a one-way mission to the asteroid belt to blast an asteroid onto an Earth-impacting trajectory (intended to hit the USA); and the Earth's biosphere heads for collapse. All that by 2016!
[/quote]

More Plagiarism!

Robert Hienlien describes a society exactly like that in his book Revolt in 2100. I'm thinking more and more that I don't need to read this book, because I could read it all elswhere! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

EDIT!!!!
Oh yeah, also stolen from Hienlien is that bit about a weapon that only works on Asians. Read his book "The Day After Tomarrow" (also titled The Sixth Column.
EDIT!!!!

(Edited because I found more evidence of plagiarism. UGH!)

_________________
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit... It's the only way to be sure." Ripley/Hicks, Aliens

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: n810 on 2002-09-26 18:58 ]</font>

Peter B
2002-Sep-27, 02:56 AM
Here's another bit for you.

You may remember that a few years ago a British Airways Boeing 747 flew at night into a volcanic ash cloud over Indonesia which caused all four engines to fail. The jet glided for about 10 minutes before the crew could restart a couple of the engines and land safely. During the crisis, the crew had difficulty convincing Air Traffic Control. They said they'd lost all four engines, but the Controller asked for confirmation that they'd lost engine number four.

Guess what. This incident is recreated in "Moonseed". A four engine jet flies into an ash cloud and loses all four engines. The crew report the loss of all four engines to ATC, who ask for confirmation that they've lost engine number four.

2002-Oct-01, 04:38 PM
On 2002-09-25 22:42, GrapesOfWrath wrote:


On 2002-09-25 21:11, Peter B wrote:
Baxter does provide credits at the end of his books, but "Titan" makes no mention of Murray and Cox, and "Moonseed" makes no mention of Chaikin.

What sort of credits? Works of fiction often don't have bibliographies. Does he list any such sources?

log on for later 9:31 A.M. two hours 1 min and NOT couning

2002-Oct-03, 08:42 AM
<a name="20021003.1:30"> POST 20021003.1:30 aka 2plag2
On 2002-10-01 12:38, HUb' wrote: To? HUb'


On 2002-09-25 22:42, GrapesOfWrath wrote:


On 2002-09-25 21:11, Peter B wrote:
Baxter does provide credits at the end of his books, but "Titan" makes no mention of Murray and Cox, and "Moonseed" makes no mention of Chaikin.

What sort of credits? Works of fiction often don't have bibliographies. Does he list any such sources?

ANYWAY ? I consider this "PLA", & want to say " Pla's really OK?
{um by this i mean if a string can be found anywhere I upon finding the string{thread} should be able to do with it [WHATEVER] So sure i think LaW especially Copy Law should be rethunk? "punk"

Peter B
2002-Nov-25, 11:43 PM
Well, on the advice of some friends, I put together a document comparing the passages in Baxter's books with the books I reckon he lifted the passages from.

It's 23 pages long. In other words, Baxter lifted a solid 6 or 7 pages of text from each of these books.

What I'd like to do now is write to the authors of the original text (Andrew Chaikin, and Charles (?) Murray and Catherine (?) Cox) and let them know what I've got.

So I was wondering if anyone might happen to have any ideas on how I might get in contact with them.