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NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-10, 04:53 PM
Every so often I run into these stories that seem to appear for no reason other than the reporter has been living under a rock, and doesn't think things like this happen.

Our local station has this one, and I don't think it's anywhere near the viewing area.

Couple hurt when backyard pool collapses (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=70875)


Police Chief Mike Kovalyk says the 14-year-old pool was holding more than seven-thousand gallons of water when it collapsed

14 year old pool...that should be stable.
Wow, a pool can hold thousands of gallons? I would have never guessed.

Noclevername
2007-Jul-10, 05:03 PM
When you don't know anything, everything comes as a surprise.

Moose
2007-Jul-10, 05:06 PM
When you don't know anything, everything comes as a surprise.

Quoted For Truth.

korjik
2007-Jul-10, 05:48 PM
More of that deadly dihydrogen monoxide

Nicolas
2007-Jul-10, 06:04 PM
Hydrogen is a highly explosive gas. Oxygen is an agressive acid and an important element of the fire triangle. Combine these two chemically, and it should be no surprise that the resulting dihydrogen monoxide can be very, very deadly.

(btw, remembering that parody propaganda page, the nicest one IMO was "dihydrogen monoxide is an important element in acid rain" and the pic showing a terribly dirty industrial liquid dumped from a sewer into a river, with caption "dihydrogen monoxide contaminated industrial waste")

Lurker
2007-Jul-10, 06:07 PM
More of that deadly dihydrogen monoxide
Damn, how many more need to die before we ban this deadly material?? :mad:

Jeff Root
2007-Jul-10, 06:07 PM
Every so often I run into these stories that seem to appear for no reason
other than the reporter has been living under a rock, and doesn't think
things like this happen.

Our local station has this one, and I don't think it's anywhere near the viewing area.

Couple hurt when backyard pool collapses (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=70875)

14 year old pool...that should be stable.
Wow, a pool can hold thousands of gallons? I would have never guessed.
The article is fine. The reporter in this case is not the clueless person.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-10, 06:44 PM
The article is fine. The reporter in this case is not the clueless person.
I do hope you are referring to the person who contacted the reporter in the first place.
I still blame the reporter or editor or someone on the staff for not saying "so?".

Jeff Root
2007-Jul-10, 07:19 PM
I do hope you are referring to the person who contacted the reporter
in the first place.
No, I'm not. Nor am I referring to the quoted police chief or the
WKYC news program producers, editors, or other staff.



I still blame the reporter or editor or someone on the staff for not saying "so?".
It appears to me like they knew exactly what they were doing and
why they were doing it.



Every so often I run into these stories that seem to appear for no
reason other than the reporter has been living under a rock, and
doesn't think things like this happen.
Show me some evidence that the reporter or anyone else involved
didn't think that things like that happen. There is no such evidence
in the article.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Fazor
2007-Jul-10, 07:30 PM
I think his point, and the provoked pet-peeve which I also share, is the non-newsworthyness of the article. You can say it was reported to let people know that someone was injured, but then were are the thousands of "Man falls off ladder, gets hurt" articles each day? Accidents happen. If they are bizare or unusual, then perhaps they're interesting. But if they're mundane, then what's the point? To let the public know that old, poorly maintained pools are dangerous?

If you want a cool (gross) pool accident story, try this one:
Girl-Drain Accident (http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1285137.html)


6-year-old Edina girl remained hospitalized in serious condition Wednesday after an unusual accident in which several feet of her intestine were pulled out by the suction of a swimming pool drain.
Moral of the story: do NOT sit on a swimming pool drain. (Yes, I feel very badly for the girl, which is why I didn't post this article when I first read it a week ago).

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-10, 07:34 PM
Show me some evidence that the reporter or anyone else involved
didn't think that things like that happen. There is no such evidence
in the article.

The article is my evidence. Why else would they print it?

This kind of event is neither rare nor unexpected. It has been a worry for everyone that I have ever personally known with an above ground pool.
I have also personally know people that this has happened to.
Around these parts, it is fairly common.

If you question my motives, or don't agree, then why don't you say so, and provide your own reasoning? I have provided mine.
I do not appreciate the direct insult hidden behind the guise of a vague statement.

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-10, 07:48 PM
I think his point, and the provoked pet-peeve which I also share, is the non-newsworthyness of the article...
Nice to know somebody understands what I'm saying.

Moral of the story: do NOT sit on a swimming pool drain. (Yes, I feel very badly for the girl, which is why I didn't post this article when I first read it a week ago).
Yes; I was thinking at first that this story was headed down the old "pool drains suck" yawner. I really thought they were headed toward her being pulled under (which in many cases this does happen). But; I never really thought of that particular outcome. I didn't think that it couldn't happen, just that I never thought of it. That outcome does make the story. (although the severity of it could have been the story anyway)

antoniseb
2007-Jul-10, 08:14 PM
We're walking a strange line here, in which we seem to be talking about whether the victims, the reporters, the police chief, or one or more of us doesn't have all their wits about them. While the initial post was clearly intending to find humor in the story, we've walked in a direction that can be understood as insulting to *someone*.

Why don't we just leave it that something kind of embarrassing happened, but no one was seriously hurt.

Fazor
2007-Jul-10, 08:20 PM
Why don't we just leave it that something kind of embarrassing happened, but no one was seriously hurt. Well, again I don't think the OP was meant to really insult anyone, but more satirise the newsworthiness of the article.

Anyway, the distressing thing, at least in my humble opinion, is that articles such as this apparently do appeal to readers, which is why they get run in the first place. Tabloid "news" and "respectable" news are increasingly approaching the same level (e.g., CNN.com shrinking the science&nature section and tucking it in with the technologly section, while expanding the section on Hollywood celebrity gossip).

With that, I'll ask the question, where do you BAUTers, whom I consider to be measurably more astute and intellectual than the general public, prefer to get your news?

Noclevername
2007-Jul-10, 08:24 PM
This kind of event is neither rare nor unexpected.


Unless you're a reporter who doesn't know a thing about pools, and can't be bothered to do any research about it. Or an editor, same.

sarongsong
2007-Jul-10, 08:33 PM
...stories that seem to appear for no reason other than the reporter has been living under a rock...and I don't think it's anywhere near the [media station's] viewing area...Reporters, as a rule, don't decide what gets aired; it's management. It would be interesting to get a response from that local media station.
I'm waiting for the real fireworks to begin when Rupert Murdoch's "news philosophy" takes hold at The Wall Street Journal, which he just purchased. :)

hhEb09'1
2007-Jul-10, 09:31 PM
Nice to know somebody understands what I'm saying.


Yes; I was thinking at first that this story was headed down the old "pool drains suck" yawner. I really thought they were headed toward her being pulled under (which in many cases this does happen). But; I never really thought of that particular outcome. I didn't think that it couldn't happen, just that I never thought of it. That outcome does make the story. (although the severity of it could have been the story anyway)This is kinda ironic. A similar incident made a big play a few years ago because it was one of John Edwards' Four Trials (see the section on Valerie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Trials))

I thought everybody knew about it :)

Jeff Root
2007-Jul-11, 05:16 AM
Show me some evidence that the reporter or anyone else involved
didn't think that things like that happen. There is no such evidence
in the article.
The article is my evidence.
The existence of the article provides no evidence to support the
fanciful notion that the reporter or anyone else involved didn't think
that things like the pool collapse happen. There is no evidence in
the article that the reporter or anyone else involved didn't think
that things like that happen. Your assertion is totally unsupported.



Why else would they print it?
For starters, because it happened within the region covered by
WKYC and the time period of that news cycle, and they had the
information in hand.



This kind of event is neither rare nor unexpected.
I will take your word on that.



It has been a worry for everyone that I have ever personally known
with an above ground pool. I have also personally know people that
this has happened to. Around these parts, it is fairly common.
Okay, I will take your word on that. I do not recall ever hearing
of such a thing happening, anywhere. I don't know anyone with an
aboveground pool. I don't recall ever seeing an aboveground pool
as large as the one described in the article. (7000 gallons would
fill a pool 20 feet long by 10 feet wide to a depth of 4.6 feet.)



If you question my motives, or don't agree, then why don't you say
so, and provide your own reasoning?
I hadn't thought about your motives at all. Even after you
suggest the idea, I still haven't thought about your motives.

I thought I made it clear that I disagree with your assertion that
the reporter didn't think things like the pool collapse happen. My
reasoning is that there was absolutely zero evidence in the article
to support such an assertion.



I have provided mine.
No, you have not. All you said was:


The article is my evidence.
A news article about a swimming pool collapsing is not evidence
supporting your fanciful notion that the reporter was previously
unaware that such things happen.



I do not appreciate the direct insult hidden behind the guise of a
vague statement.
I don't think my statement was vague. You accused the reporter
of being unaware that such things happen, of seeming to live
under a rock, of reporting such stories "for no reason", and,
in the thread title, of being "easily shocked".

I replied that the article is fine. The reporter in this case
is not the clueless person.

Let me repeat: I do not recall ever hearing of such a swimming
pool collapsing, anywhere. If I had thought about it, I certainly
would have guessed that such things happen occasionally. When
I read here yesterday that someone had dug out along the outside
of the basement wall of his house, apparently to the level of the
floor or possibly even the bottom of the foundation, I immediately
was concerned about the possibility of the wall buckling outward
and collapsing, carrying the house with it. But I do not recall
ever before hearing of an aboveground swiming pool collapsing.
It is news to me.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Josh
2007-Jul-11, 05:31 AM
Jeff and others,

Anton posted earlier that this thread was moving in a less than friendly direction (and needlessly so in my opinion) and asked that no more comments be made that could lead us up that garden path. Let's make this the final word on the matter. Okay? Good.

novaderrik
2007-Jul-11, 05:34 AM
me thinks Jeff Root is either taking this too seriously, or he's looking for a fight of some sort. i'd say at least half of what gets covered during a news broadcast or in the daily newspaper news sections isn't really "news" at all- just filler. just watch the Kare11 news some night and tell me that you honestly disagree with me.
lighten up, man.. don't forget you're a Minnesotan- gotta be Minnesota nice, doncha know?

sts60
2007-Jul-11, 05:36 AM
I'll have to echo Jeff's comments here. It was an Ohio news outlet, reporting an Ohio incident. What's the issue here?

I am not questioning any motives; no veiled accusation, no "hints and allegations". I just think the OP seems like an overreaction. Local news outlets put out plenty of dumb stories and say plenty of dumb things, but this wasn't one of them.

FWIW, I see and hear about plenty of incidents, and respond to some of them, but this is the first time I recall hearing about an above-ground pool collapsing. I have no problem believing NEOWatcher when he says it's not unusual, and I don't think it's shocking or anything, but I suppose I'd find it newsworthy if it happened in my area.

As for Fazor's question, I tend to get my news from the Washington Post, from NPR, and occasionally check the CNN website for breaking news items. I also use other sources for more specialized news and analysis. I find it kind of funny that I'm actually coming to the defense of a local TV news station.

Josh
2007-Jul-11, 05:37 AM
Seeing as those posts were being written at the same time as mine .. in the spirit of fair play we'll make them the last word on the matter. :)

And ... I get my news from GLP

Jeff Root
2007-Jul-11, 08:30 AM
i'd say at least half of what gets covered during a news broadcast
or in the daily newspaper news sections isn't really "news" at all- just
filler. just watch the Kare11 news some night and tell me that you
honestly disagree with me.
I haven't had a working TV since the first day of the first Gulf War,
and I haven't watched the TV news very regularly since Walter
Cronkite retired and Dave Moore passed away. Largely NPR, now.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-11, 01:03 PM
The existence of the article provides no evidence to support the fanciful notion that the reporter or anyone else involved didn't think that things like the pool collapse happen.
I'll concede that it wasn't directly, but I have grown up with the notion of the News as being informative.

For starters, because it happened within the region covered by WKYC and the time period of that news cycle, and they had the information in hand.
That doesn't mean they have to report it. It gives me the impression that nothing else is going on.

Okay, I will take your word on that. I do not recall ever hearing of such a thing happening, anywhere. I don't know anyone with an aboveground pool.
Perhaps it's a local thing that sounds common to me and Fazor, but no one else. :think:

I don't recall ever seeing an aboveground pool as large as the one described in the article. (7000 gallons would fill a pool 20 feet long by 10 feet wide to a depth of 4.6 feet.)
A common sized pool around here is 18' diameter. There are also lots of 24' ones, and many oval ones of similar sizes.


I replied that the article is fine. The reporter in this case is not the clueless person.
Indirectly calling me clueless. That is fine as long as you tell me why you think I am clueless, which you later did.
I really don't want to go here, but I do feel the urge to respond to that.


When I read here yesterday that someone had dug out along the outside of the basement wall of his house, apparently to the level of the floor or possibly even the bottom of the foundation, I immediately was concerned about the possibility of the wall buckling outward and collapsing, carrying the house with it.
Interesting, because, I thought the other direction which happens quite often, and that is the ground collapsing onto the poster.


But I do not recall ever before hearing of an aboveground swiming pool collapsing.
It is news to me.

One of the advantages of this board. Corrections, clarifications, and other points of view are both presented and welcome (at least within reasonable bounds)


I am not questioning any motives; no veiled accusation, no "hints and allegations". I just think the OP seems like an overreaction.
I will concede that, now that I know that others don't think it's that common.

Local news outlets put out plenty of dumb stories and say plenty of dumb things
My biggest point of the whole thing. There is so much more interesting, shocking, informative stuff out there, that this seems to be a waste of time. A poor direction that the media is heading more and more toward.

Now, maybe if the reporter took the time (and when I say reporter, I mean the whole chain of media) and presented it as to how these things could happen, other dangers to consider, how common it really is, I would have felt differently. A quick call to a Pool dealer should have been in order.

John Mendenhall
2007-Jul-11, 01:18 PM
The story is anecdotal, the guy I worked for has passed away, I have no verification.

This fellow that I worked for went to an outdoor wedding in, I think, upstate New Jersey, where there are actually hills. About the midpoint in this beautiful wedding - sunshine, pleasent temp, everything right - a guy woriking on an above ground pool uphill from the wedding yells "Look out! The walls giving way!" I leave the rest to your imagination, no one was hurt, everyone was wet.

Jeff Root
2007-Jul-11, 01:21 PM
I think that worked out well. :)




When I read here yesterday that someone had dug out along the outside
of the basement wall of his house, apparently to the level of the floor or
possibly even the bottom of the foundation, I immediately was concerned
about the possibility of the wall buckling outward and collapsing, carrying
the house with it.
Interesting, because, I thought the other direction which happens quite
often, and that is the ground collapsing onto the poster.
I think we're probably both thinking of the same direction -- the wall
collapsing outward, possibly onto the person outside the house, in
the trench. Oh, wait, on third reading I see what you mean: The dirt
on the other side of the trench collapsing. Yes, I thought of that also.
Major danger when you have a trench five or six feet deep!

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-11, 01:31 PM
I think we're probably both thinking of the same direction -- the wall collapsing outward, possibly onto the person outside the house, in the trench.
The different direction I was thinking was from the house side vs from the other side. Either way, you are right, the result is the same direction...Inward, toward the trench.

Oh; just in case somebody doesn't know what we are talking about, it's over here (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/61874-dont-try-home.html).

Now; if he had an old above ground pool and...:think:

Fazor
2007-Jul-11, 01:33 PM
The dirt
on the other side of the trench collapsing. Yes, I thought of that also.
Major danger when you have a trench five or six feet deep!
Yep. My brother made a fairly decent (I'm lieing, it was pretty crappy) living for a while, working for a company that installed "trench boxes". Steel structures meant to help prevent wall collapse...or in the event of a collapse at least providing some protection. I was pretty amazed at what I thought was a relatively low depth that they were required in (IIRC, it was anything over 5').

sts60
2007-Jul-11, 01:51 PM
One of the things you learn in trench rescue awareness training (I'm not on the USAR team here, but everyone needs to know the basics to stabilize the situation before they show up) is just how amazingly heavy and tenacious collapsed earth is. In many cases, it's simply impossible to pull someone out even if they're only up to their knees. Turns out it's very easy to get killed in a ditch just 5 or 6 feet deep.

SeanF
2007-Jul-11, 02:00 PM
With that, I'll ask the question, where do you BAUTers, whom I consider to be measurably more astute and intellectual than the general public, prefer to get your news?

Trunk: I suppose you heard about what happened to the Mayor's daughter.
Hammer: Nope.
Trunk: What's the matter with you, Hammer? Don't you read the newspapers?
Hammer: No. I prefer to get my news from more reliable sources - rumors, small children...

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-11, 02:06 PM
...
Hammer: No. I prefer to get my news from more reliable sources - rumors, small children...
Otherwise known as the tabloids. :whistle:
Similar to the scene in MIB...the only real news.

Anyway, here's an intentional pool collapse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAWofLZ2y48) on YouTube for anyone interested. I was surprised not to find more, since I've seen it fairly often on those funny video shows.
Usually though, it's due to somebody not using the ladder and collapsing a side (something that I also considered with the OP)

Fazor
2007-Jul-11, 02:38 PM
With the kind of outward pressure that all that water puts on the sides of these things, it's not too suprising that any misuse, abuse, or neglect could lead to a tidalwave of problems.

For years and years my company wouldn't write homeowners insurance if you had an above-ground pool. This was partially because of the attached liability issues (neighborhood kids sneak over at night for a swim and one drowns, the family can sue even though they were trespassing. The argument was that above-ground pools are more easily seen from the street, therefore attract more "nusiances", which is why the hazard is called "an attractive nuisance").

Anyway, I digress. The other major reason we wouldn't write coverage for homes with above-ground pools was that if they collapse, that water all has to go somewhere. Aside from possible serious injury in such case, it's not uncommon for the water to end up in the home. And while the pools don't look that big, we've discussed how much water actually is in them. Torrents of water and homes just do not mix.

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-11, 03:08 PM
Ok; next story...
Man arrives at wedding year early (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/11/wedding.early.reut/index.html)

We can pick on the newsworthyness of what is obviously a fluff story.

I personally think the guy is just not detail oriented, or not a close enough friend.
(I, actually have a stronger opinion, but I don't want to go overboard again)

Fazor
2007-Jul-11, 03:12 PM
(I, actually have a stronger opinion, but I don't want to go overboard again) You think he's a reporter? Sorry couldn't help myself.

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-11, 04:10 PM
To illustrate the difference between the "well, duh" opinion of an article, and one that has some merit, we have this.

Girl Breaks Wrists While Wearing Heelys (http://www.newsnet5.com/news/13661440/detail.html)

Yes; it sounds stupid because it happens all the time, but the story is not limited to this incident. It has some references, statistics, and warnings. In other words, the reporter actually did some work.

Gillianren
2007-Jul-11, 07:41 PM
That doesn't mean they have to report it. It gives me the impression that nothing else is going on.

And that is always possible, too. The phrase "slow news day" was coined for a reason.

Josh
2007-Jul-12, 04:38 AM
Does this qualify as a "well, duh!" moment in reporting? or a "well, duh" moment in scientific research? How did they manage to get funding for this research in the first place??

The Math of Silly Walks (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22054850-1702,00.html)

hhEb09'1
2007-Jul-12, 06:13 AM
How did they manage to get funding for this research in the first place??They just had to include the magic words "potentially useful in biomechanics and robotics, where scientists need to understand mathematically how humans (or their robot mimics) move, and the energy cost of doing it" :)

Maksutov
2007-Jul-12, 07:19 AM
Trunk: I suppose you heard about what happened to the Mayor's daughter.
Hammer: Nope.
Trunk: What's the matter with you, Hammer? Don't you read the newspapers?
Hammer: No. I prefer to get my news from more reliable sources - rumors, small children...Wow!

If Sledge Hammer! were being made now, that last line would read:
Hammer: No. I prefer to get my news from more reliable sources - rumors, small children, FOX...Bravo, :clap: good to see another Sledge Hammer! fan (or victim?) on here.

Poor Dori Doreau: imagine thinking that computers could help you do your work, when all you need is Gun.

http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/boese/e010.gif

Moose
2007-Jul-12, 09:44 AM
HAAAAMAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Love the show, but there isn't a single episode that ever topped the pilot.

Maksutov
2007-Jul-12, 10:30 AM
IIRC:
We've got vermin on the roof, but I've got an idea.Bazookas and destroys the building under the sniper.
I think I got him.I need to research the Alpha Memory tapes.

Consulted.

Moose
2007-Jul-12, 11:38 AM
Mak, you forgot the bit where when he says:


We've got vermin on the roof, but I've got an idea...


Are you talking to your gun?

Hammer sheepishly mutters Nah, nah, and brandishes the gun "casually"

Then he gets the bazooka.

One of the very best scenes of the series, and it was the prologue of the pilot.

Another favorite is the time (also in the pilot) where Dori stops Hammer from beating up a purse snatcher because they're right in front of city hall. So Hammer orders the suspect (at gunpoint, of course) to beat himself up. Who does. Seeing the suspect scruffing himself and slamming himself into the roof of the car a bunch of times... Oh man. I'm cackling every time I see that scene.

NEOWatcher
2007-Jul-12, 11:55 AM
Does this qualify as a "well, duh!" moment in reporting? or a "well, duh" moment in scientific research? How did they manage to get funding for this research in the first place??

The Math of Silly Walks (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22054850-1702,00.html)
This could actually be a good article if they only did 2 things...
1) Get rid of the Python references. The research was about the efficiencies of how humans run or walk. The silly walk reference was just an example contrary to the research.
2) Add a bit more to the application part of the research.

Otherwise, I would target it for the Domain Name Registration, E-mail, Web Hosting (http://55511-study-says-nothing) thread.

Maksutov
2007-Jul-12, 12:04 PM
Mak, you forgot the bit where when he says: ...I didn't forget it, I just couldn't find it.

You're right, beautiful sequence.

Thanks (from Gun, too) for filling it in.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing.

One Skunk Todd
2007-Jul-12, 05:51 PM
Every week I look at the crime reports for my area. I noticed this entry for a street near where I live:

"Property was stolen from a residence. Nothing was reported missing."

Fazor
2007-Jul-12, 05:58 PM
"Property was stolen from a residence. Nothing was reported missing."
LoL, perhaps the robber was the one who reported it to the paper, brazenly bragging that the victims weren't even aware of the crime. :)

SeanF
2007-Jul-12, 06:33 PM
HAAAAMAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Love the show, but there isn't a single episode that ever topped the pilot.
David Rasche is a severely underrated comedy actor (watch the way he dismisses his own ludicrous suggestion of "I guess we have to wait for the next tunnel to get him back, huh?" in Comrade Hammer).

IMHO, the funniest scene in the series was Hammer's battle with the severed robot arm on Trunk's desk in Hammeroid. :lol:


Every week I look at the crime reports for my area. I noticed this entry for a street near where I live:

"Property was stolen from a residence. Nothing was reported missing."
The accident report in my local paper once listed a "single-vehicle accident involving a parked car." I always wondered what the story behind that one was.

Moose
2007-Jul-12, 06:55 PM
The accident report in my local paper once listed a "single-vehicle accident involving a parked car." I always wondered what the story behind that one was.

Slipped into neutral and hit a pole?

You're right, the robot arm scene in Hammeroid was absolutely brilliant. I also got a kick out of the episode Dori out-hammers Hammer due to a comedic bump on the head. Mostly for Trunk's reactions to Hammer in Stereo.

Speaking of which: the show would never have worked without Trunk's over the top screaming. Man, they simply nailed that show. Too bad the network was dumb enough to put it against Cosby, then killed it in the Friday slot.