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banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Aug-22, 03:23 PM
I was inspecting a fire extinguisher this morning and found out that the "pin" that is supposed to prevent discharge is apparently there for "decorative" purposes only. I picked the darned thing up and it went off, even though the pin was in place. I called the company that we bought it from and he said that your supposed to pick them up by the bottom part of the trigger/handle and to avoid pressing down on the top.....grrrrr.

NEOWatcher
2007-Aug-22, 03:26 PM
Please...stay away from hand grenedes.:eek:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-22, 03:29 PM
banquo's_bumble_puppy,

Don't you think there are already enough frivilous Warning Labels on things?



:p


http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Aug-22, 03:30 PM
nahh...we could always use more...yeah hand grenades!!!!

BigDon
2007-Aug-22, 04:18 PM
There is a reason that happens Banquo. Its a fail safe in case of emergency. What is the bigger priority with an extinguisher? To go off or to not go off?

Exactly.

soylentgreen
2007-Aug-22, 04:26 PM
Don't you think there are already enough frivilous Warning Labels on things?
http://www.rinkworks.com/said/warnings.shtml

:D Ha!

So when I go to the drawer and don't see the batteries I thought were in there, I guess they may be out exploring! (http://www.rinkworks.com/said/im/battery.shtml)

Moose
2007-Aug-22, 04:47 PM
Speaking of which. You know the "pull pin and throw" instruction? That's just for grenades. Not extinguishers. Nor pins.

/ Just sayin'.

BigDon
2007-Aug-22, 04:51 PM
I liked the Please keep out of children warning for the butcher knife.

It should add, or BigDon will swing you from the nearest tree.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-22, 05:08 PM
From that list:


"Fragile. Do not drop." -- Posted on a Boeing 757.
I doubt this was serious or a liability issue :D.


"Optional modem required." -- On a computer software package.
Funny as it sounds, it actually makes sense for example when buying a commodore 64, who came without floppy drive as a standard package. Now if you'd buy C64 software and it's on floppy, it may read "Drawing software for Commodore 64. Optional floppy drive required." The "optional" refers to the C64 package, the "required" to the needs of the software.

The "may contain nuts" on peanuts can also be explained as less idiotic than it sounds.

Swift
2007-Aug-22, 05:44 PM
I was inspecting a fire extinguisher this morning and found out that the "pin" that is supposed to prevent discharge is apparently there for "decorative" purposes only. I picked the darned thing up and it went off, even though the pin was in place. I called the company that we bought it from and he said that your supposed to pick them up by the bottom part of the trigger/handle and to avoid pressing down on the top.....grrrrr.
I'm a little unclear how picked it up, but I agree that the pin should prevent it from discharging (at least completely) if you squeeze the handles. But, on the flip side, the pin should also be very loose and easy to pull/fall out.

If you think that is a rude discovery, many people find a ruder discovery when they have to use one. Unless you have, or have been trained, people don't realize how short a period of time the average extinguisher lasts. The average ones you find around businesses are 8 to 25 seconds (according to this CDC website (http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001101-d001200/d001102/d001102.html)). This is insufficient for anything beyond a minor fire.

I actually had training in this when I worked at a paint company. The final was for a team to put out a fire, on some demo equipment, that involved about 10 or 15 gallons of gasoline. It took (IIRC) 15 or 20 extinguishers to put it out, with a group of about five people working.

Palomar
2007-Aug-22, 05:56 PM
Please...stay away from hand grenedes.:eek:

ROFL!! :lol:

BigDon
2007-Aug-22, 06:35 PM
Swift, 10 to 15 gallons of gasoline is not a minor fire.

Most extinguishers ARE for minor fires. Beyond that you call the fire department and evacuate. I've fought a lot of big fires. Which sucks mightily, I might add. Even the ones where someones' luck hasn't run out. I still can't relate some of the worse ones, even after 25 years.

I've run toward fires most people would run screaming away from, like when a fully laden A-6 Intruder parked on the catapult at night bursts into flame because a leaking drop tank dripped into the catapults inner workings. On a ship you have to agressively attack a fire because you can't run away from it.

The A-6 here had 28 500 pounders hanging off its wings like bunchs of grapes. Woo hoo! Talk about butt clenching adventure! Took a week to unclench enough to change my underwear. (Okay, little exageration)

You feel funny after something like that. Very much like they discibed in the book Shogun when Blackthorn was commited to preform seppiku and then the situation changed and he didn't have too.

Its an unreal feeling. Its basically counting yourself dead aready, then not dying. The whole time I was manning the hose I was thinking, "Please, please, please, please don't let one of these things cook off". And when the whole aircraft is in flames, mentally you just don't see how one could not cook off, with all the heat and such. And there is just no way to survive even one exploding at fire fighting distances

And then there were the bad times. I still get aphonic about some things that happened. Wierd how that applies to even the written word. (Wow, tried to put in a roundabout snippet and just can't)

Nicolas
2007-Aug-22, 06:50 PM
Had a small oil fire in the underside of a car engine.

Car fire extinguishers: useless. Emptied 3 on it, result 3 white cars and still fire. No pressure behind them, and empty after 5 seconds. Then took out the large school cantine extinguisher (you know, about a meter high). It was able to extinguish far longer, but due to its power it had the fire out within 5 seconds already. We saved certainly one and quite possibly 3 cars by the luck of having a real extinguisher available rather than the car toys.

Car extinguishers are good when your seat's on fire. When the engine goes, they're worth zip.

mugaliens
2007-Aug-22, 07:27 PM
The average ones you find around businesses are 8 to 25 seconds (according to this CDC website (http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001101-d001200/d001102/d001102.html)). This is insufficient for anything beyond a minor fire.

I've only used an extinguisher twice. Once on a car engine fire (halon), and another on an onboard airplane electrical fire (again, halon). I think both squirts lasted less than a second each and did the job just fine.

Then again, as a childhood pyro (that's not "progidy") I set and built more than my shares of fires in the back yard, so I've a fairly decent familiarity with the stuff, know where to aim, etc.

But neither fire involved large fuel sources, either...

The foam concept intrigues me, as it's employed by the fire department where I work. I wonder if there's a way of empoying a "solid foam" that essentially encapsulates all non-liquid fuel sources, sort of a "fire and forget" approach to managing non-liquid fires? It might be a bear to clean up, but if a decent, environmentally-friendly solvent were found, it might not.

Also, since the foam approach is so effective in airplane/fuel fires, I wonder how many fire departments have foam systems, and why I don't see much use in some of the multi-alarm fires, particularly those involving hazardous chemicals?

tlbs101
2007-Aug-22, 08:22 PM
Sorry to hear about your little accident.

Here's my 'Rude Awakening" concerning fire extinguishers.

One time I had to actually use a home fire extinguisher to put out a small stove fire. I was sucessful, and nothing was damaged (except perhaps for that meal). I took the extinguisher (a 1A2BC class) to the local fire-extinguisher-refill-shop, and they told me they couldn't fill it because it had a plastic top, not a metal top.

Since then I have only purchased the metal-topped cannisters.

What I don't understand is, why would they bother to put a pressure gauge on the top if it is a one-time-use extinguisher?

Beware of cheap one-time-use only fire extinguishers -- if you have to use them, they are worthless after that.

Swift
2007-Aug-22, 08:58 PM
Swift, 10 to 15 gallons of gasoline is not a minor fire.

Most extinguishers ARE for minor fires. Beyond that you call the fire department and evacuate.
Which was exactly my point. The average person should not try to fight anything beyond a truely minor fire with only an extinguisher, particularly if it is a single extinguisher.

This training was intended for bigger fires and was mostly aimed at slowing down their progress long enough for people to evacuate and for the real firefighters to arrive. As I said, this was a paint company that was sitting on large quantities of solvents. Even the non-technical/production people went through this training, and on a quarterly basis.

Lianachan
2007-Aug-22, 10:10 PM
The foam concept intrigues me, as it's employed by the fire department where I work. I wonder if there's a way of empoying a "solid foam" that essentially encapsulates all non-liquid fuel sources, sort of a "fire and forget" approach to managing non-liquid fires? It might be a bear to clean up, but if a decent, environmentally-friendly solvent were found, it might not.

Also, since the foam approach is so effective in airplane/fuel fires, I wonder how many fire departments have foam systems, and why I don't see much use in some of the multi-alarm fires, particularly those involving hazardous chemicals?

I've seen specialist fire engines that deploy very small glass beads, which melt in the heat of a fire and smother it. Not, I suspect, very easy to clean up.

JustAFriend
2007-Aug-23, 02:55 AM
No manufacturer can ever totally protect against the low I.Q. of end users....

;-)

Maksutov
2007-Aug-23, 07:06 AM
[exit]What I don't understand is, why would they bother to put a pressure gauge on the top if it is a one-time-use extinguisher?...To let you know when to throw them away. All fire extinguishers leak, some more slowly than others. You find this out during the inspections you conduct every one to three weeks (consult the manual).

If it's in the counterclockwise red, it's dead. Ditto if the pin doesn't pop back up.

The most fun I ever had with fire prevention and mitigation was in radiological areas.

Jens
2007-Aug-23, 07:18 AM
On a ship you have to agressively attack a fire because you can't run away from it.


Though I suppose you could swim away from it. :-)

Moose
2007-Aug-23, 09:38 AM
Though I suppose you could swim away from it. :-)

For the half-minute or so (if that) it takes for you to get hypothermia and die, sure. At least in the North Atlantic. ;)

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 09:40 AM
Lets not forget the multiple tens of meters dive you need to take first to get from the flight deck into the water.

Donnie B.
2007-Aug-23, 02:59 PM
Let's not forget the hungry sharks waiting for you, if it's not the North Atlantic. (Indianapolis, anyone?)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-23, 03:11 PM
Let's not forget the hungry sharks waiting for you, if it's not the North Atlantic. (Indianapolis, anyone?)

:p

Sharks don't eat people. If they did, there would be no survivors.

sts60
2007-Aug-23, 08:06 PM
Also, since the foam approach is so effective in airplane/fuel fires, I wonder how many fire departments have foam systems, and why I don't see much use in some of the multi-alarm fires, particularly those involving hazardous chemicals?

Most structural-firefighting engines carry Class A (for ordinary combustibles) foam and can be set up to deploy foam. In practice, it doesn't get used very often, as the emphasis is to get the water on the fire as quickly as possible, and the stuff tends to gum up from disuse. Some outfits put a little Class A agent in their water extinguishers, though.

Where I volunteer, the county is in the process of getting several dozen new pumpers which are equipped with CAFS (Compressed Air Foam System) built-in - no extra setup required - and the new plan will be to use CAFS on pretty much all structure fires. There's no denying a little foam can go a long ways, but it will be something of a culture change.

Class B foam is routinely used on large fuel spills (but you can't automatically apply it to any hazardous material). For example, there have been tanker-truck accidents in my area for which aid from an airport fire department foam truck is requested. Another place you'll see it is industrial fire departments, especially refineries.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-24, 02:51 AM
Though I suppose you could swim away from it. :-)If, when the burning fuel hits the water, you can swim faster than it spreads.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-24, 02:55 AM
Let's not forget the hungry sharks waiting for you, if it's not the North Atlantic. (Indianapolis, anyone?)Including the North Atlantic.

Jaws' Quint was based on a shark hunter whose home port was Montauk, NY. The ocean off Montauk is definitely the North Atlantic, and filled with sharks up to and including great whites. I know, since, while living in Connecticut, I'd seen them and caught number of them (no great whites, though).

Ronald Brak
2007-Aug-24, 05:28 AM
Sharks don't eat people.

Yeah, but even if they're just have a taste and spit the piece out it's still a bit of a downer.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 06:02 AM
Yeah, but even if they're just have a taste and spit the piece out it's still a bit of a downer.

For the victim or the shark?

Jens
2007-Aug-24, 06:02 AM
OK. Well, the thing about swimming was meant as a joke.

But I suppose we could make it realistic by assuming you are in the south Pacific, there are no sharks around, you happen to have a parachute on your back to make the jump, and you happen to be a wearing a wetsuit and oxygen tank so you can swim underwater and avoid the spreading oil. I'm sure 007 or Rambo could manage it. Plus, if you were 007 there would be a woman in a bikini waiting on the beach.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-24, 06:43 AM
OK. Well, the thing about swimming was meant as a joke.

But I suppose we could make it realistic by assuming you are in the south Pacific, there are no sharks around, you happen to have a parachute on your back to make the jump, and you happen to be a wearing a wetsuit and oxygen tank so you can swim underwater and avoid the spreading oil. I'm sure 007 or Rambo could manage it. Plus, if you were 007 there would be a woman in a bikini waiting on the beach.Ah, two good jokes now!

:lol:

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:39 AM
Hey, it can happen if all the sharks happen to be at Montauk watching mentally unstable girls with painted hairs playing on the snowy beach and you happen to be member of the paracommando dive squad, just getting ready for a mission.

The bikini thing would require a bit of luck though.

(that said, I think a flight deck has that nasty altitude where it's too high for a jump sans parachute and too low for a parachute to be effective..)

Jens
2007-Aug-24, 08:36 AM
(that said, I think a flight deck has that nasty altitude where it's too high for a jump sans parachute and too low for a parachute to be effective..)

OK. Hang glider? James Bond did something like that in Moonraker. Or alternatively, a big umbrella. I think some English nanny used that in a musical.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 08:40 AM
When your flight deck turns into an inferno
think practical and go
and before you know
you're next to bikini or mono
on the beaches of paramaribo

You're a practical thinker, Jens ;).

(the ladies may want to change that fourth line into "you're next to surf shorts or speedo")

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 10:53 AM
(the ladies may want to change that fourth line into "you're next to surf shorts or speedo")

Ugh, I still maintain speedos just look wrong!

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 10:58 AM
Look, you've just escaped a blistering inferno on an aircraft carrier, made it into the water without killing yourself, avoided the burning fuel on the water, swam through a normally shark infested ocean, managed to get past the pointy rocks near shore, made it to Paramaribo and now you're complaining about the speedo of a guy on the beach? Some people...

:D

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 11:10 AM
Look, you've just escaped a blistering inferno on an aircraft carrier, made it into the water without killing yourself, avoided the burning fuel on the water, swam through a normally shark infested ocean, managed to get past the pointy rocks near shore, made it to Paramaribo and now you're complaining about the speedo of a guy on the beach? Some people...

:D

What can I say, I guess I'm a perfectionist....

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 11:12 AM
Erm, you're from Ireland, if you're a perfectionist it went wrong very early...

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 11:47 AM
Erm, you're from Ireland, if you're a perfectionist it went wrong very early...

lol
Ah, but not originally...Originally I'm Slovak. A Slav through and through :lol:

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Aug-24, 04:27 PM
I later noticed that the tamper device was missing....

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 04:40 PM
Even better, this was in the Indian Ocean near the Horn of Africa. (We were prepping to pound Iran) And its an 83 foot drop to the water...not something you'ld want to take lightly.

They tell you flat out (and confirmed by several people I knew) that the momentum from the fall will take you down deeper than where you are inherently buoyant. So you'ld best be having your life jacket on, because you are going to be a little "stunned". BUT you don't want to inflate your jacketbefore you hit the water because one of two bad things will happen. Your lifejacket will rupture on impact or, if it doesn't, The bouyancy of the jacket will fight the inertia of your descent and it will lift your head off of your Atlas vertibra, (C1).

Edit to add: And you never get to go into the "jump" position. You are usualy blown off the deck by jet exhaust and always hit the water all gollykonkwise.

John Mendenhall
2007-Aug-24, 04:55 PM
:p

Sharks don't eat people. If they did, there would be no survivors.

Sharks avoid cloth. Indianapolis corpses with life jackets were retrieved with heads and torsos and no extremities.

You only take to the water as a last resort. Your shipmates expect you to stand and fight the fire. See Don's post above. A big deck has 5000+ sailors on board; your life is nothing for the ship. Watch for films of deck apes rolling live bombs over the side that have broken off damaged returning aircraft. They don't stand around and draw straws, it's just run out and do it. I was in, too. You should see the unpublished photos of men sitting dead in gun mounts due to enemy action during WWII. They could get up and run, but they didn't. The U.S. won in the Pacific for very good reasons, courageous crews being part of it.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 05:46 PM
Sharks avoid cloth. Indianapolis corpses with life jackets were retrieved with heads and torsos and no extremities.

You are basing your theory on speculation and a lack of evidence.
Chances are the shark spat out the extremeties as well.
I'm not sure if you are proporting that sharks do, indeed, eat people.
But if so, you are wrong.

Sharks eat a lot of fat. They have a high fat content diet. Seeing humans floating on water, blood, electrical discharge and poor eyesight will often lead to one of the rare attacks that occurs.

To a shark- we taste awful.
That is science.

"Sharks eat people"- That is bad science.

Saying that sharks eat people is misleading (Like the Jaws movies) and humans have an innate ability when afraid of something to start trying to kill as many of them as they can. Try not to give people bad information eh?

Oh, and "Good, you go over the side first"? Is that an offer to jump or a threat to throw me over? :think:

Stuart van Onselen
2007-Aug-24, 06:20 PM
My wife works in the occupational health and safety field, so I know a little about fire-extinguishers. But I didn't know how ineffective they were, thanks for the warning!

Problems like the pin being mostly decorative, as in the OP, would get someone in a lot of trouble in this country, if it happened at work. Especially since the ANC came to power, the government has started taking workers' rights and safety much more seriously.

My wife told me a similar story about fire-extinguishers. It was a small office fire, and a guy grabbed the nearest extinguisher, aimed it at the fire, and hit the button. At which point the top came off violently and hit him in the face! Only swift medical attention saved his life, and he was still permanently disfigured.

In the end. they blamed it on the extinguisher inspector. It should have been obvious to him (this being his job and all) that at some point some idiot had forced the wrong top onto that canister! Yet, during his regular inspection, he signed it off as OK, anyway. He actually did jail time for that.

Jens
2007-Aug-26, 09:42 AM
The U.S. won in the Pacific for very good reasons, courageous crews being part of it.

AFAIK, the Japanese crews didn't run away either. In fact, apparently many of them had to be burned (can you say napalmed, or was that later?) out of their holes. So I suspect that the advantage lay elsewhere.

In fact, I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that in WWII, the US troops tended to break more easily than the Japanese, but that they were better able to self organize when the chain of command had been disrupted, or something like that.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-26, 09:57 AM
AFAIK, the Japanese crews didn't run away either. In fact, apparently many of them had to be burned (can you say napalmed, or was that later?) out of their holes. So I suspect that the advantage lay elsewhere.

In fact, I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that in WWII, the US troops tended to break more easily than the Japanese, but that they were better able to self organize when the chain of command had been disrupted, or something like that.

No matter how you look at it, war is brutal and hard.

There was courage on all sides. Enemy and ally alike.

Recognition of courage for your enemy is probably the most noble thing a soldier can do.

BigDon
2007-Aug-26, 10:41 AM
Neverfly, I've seen a tigershark eat a man. Eyes on, not heard about. 150 miles west of Hawaii. A twentyone foot long female. Consumed him entirely. The SEALS wanted to kill it (with grenades) and command wouldn't let them. Thats the highly edited version. The full version would take longer than I'm going to be awake tonight, but I'll relate it next time if you wish.

Jens, for the life of me I don't want to offend you at all in this matter.

You are correct. It was first developed for use in the Pacific Theatre of Operations during World War II. It was our material production that finished the war in our favor. We couldn't be isolated from our resources like you guys could. Both sides had ferociously brave men. If you recall your Navy warned your Army not to take us on.

That's because Japanese Naval officers trained in the US and were aware of our production capability. Japanese Army officers trained in Germany. The German Army (rightly so) had nothing but contempt for the US Army in the late '30's and the Army controled your military at the time.

Believe it or not I deleted a long post about war stories from my uncles whom I'm named after because I thought they might offend you, you being a regular poster and all. My Uncles Don and Dick were both Marines. My Uncle Don was wounded the first time at Pearl Harbor and was in every major campaign until he was wounded out of active service at Iwo Jima. Though he said the worst experiance was at Peleleu. Had a complete freak out when the history channel reveiled that the landing was done as "practice" for an inexperianced Admiral. He did the "Saving Private Ryan' contested landing thing not once, but seven times. In the course of the war he was orphaned four times. At Peleleu his company suffered 65% kia on the first day.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-26, 11:06 AM
Neverfly, I've seen a tigershark eat a man. Eyes on, not heard about. 150 miles west of Hawaii. A twentyone foot long female. Consumed him entirely. The SEALS wanted to kill it (with grenades) and command wouldn't let them. Thats the highly edited version. The full version would take longer than I'm going to be awake tonight, but I'll relate it next time if you wish.
.

No worries you can PM it some other day. But Ill say this again:
You saw this happen once. Thats terrible. BUT: A lot of creatures eat strange things sometimes.
Ive seen a dog eat poop. That doesn't mean that all dogs run around eating poop all the time.

I recently saw a cow eat a chicken.
That's rare but it does happen.
It wont convince a person that cows actually eat chickens and the appear to be eating grass only because they are snuffling through it looking for chickens.
Simply because you saw this happen once is not convincing in the least that sharks eat people.
I'm sure it happens rarely. Im sure attacks are more common than all out eating. But science says that we taste bad to sharks. Too low a fat content. Doesn't mean that a shark wont do it on occasion, if it's hungry enough or not a picky eater.

The rest of what you posted in response to the other topic was very well written and my hats off to all soldiers.

Jens
2007-Aug-26, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE=BigDon;1057646
You are correct. It was first developed for use in the Pacific Theatre of Operations during World War II. It was our material production that finished the war in our favor. We couldn't be isolated from our resources like you guys could. Both sides had ferociously brave men. If you recall your Navy warned your Army not to take us on. [/QUOTE]

BigDon, just to let you know, but though I happen to live in Japan, I'm in fact a Connecticut Yankee. Though I spent a significant amount of my childhood in France. So we were on the same side. :-)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-26, 01:25 PM
I don't know if France can be considered the same side...:whistle:

Jens
2007-Aug-26, 02:09 PM
I don't know if France can be considered the same side...:whistle:

Interesting point. Mind you, I don't mind it personally because I'm not French; I just lived there. :) But I did go to elementary school there, and my (somewhat vague) recollection is that we were not taught about the Vichy government. Just about De Gaulle. But that was in the 1970s. Things may be different now.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-26, 11:39 PM
They now briefly touch on the Vichy government in French elementary schools, but it's the watered-down version.