PDA

View Full Version : What is Your Favorite Fire Arm?



MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-23, 08:58 PM
Let's have a thread about our favorite Raffles, Peestols, and other Fir Arms. If we misspell everything related to Weeps, including the names of the manufacturers, such as Smeeth, Winch, Rugged, Clock, and Barnetta, perhaps we won’t show up on Homlaid Seecurty’s raidar.

Lurker
2007-Aug-23, 08:59 PM
Let's have a thread about our favorite Raffles, Peestols, and other Fir Arms. If we misspell everything related to Weeps, including the names of the manufacturers, such as Smeeth, Winch, Rugged, Clock, and Barnetta, perhaps we won’t show up on Homlaid Seecurty’s raidar.
Don't believe in 'em

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-23, 09:18 PM
My fave fir arm is the lowest-hanging one. :D

tbm
2007-Aug-23, 09:23 PM
The favorite peestil that I own is a Rooger Sooper Blak Hauk Fotee-Fo Mangum.

My favorite riffle that I own is a Mouzer 98, slightly spoterized shuting 8 milly meeter boolits.

tee-be-em

Trebuchet
2007-Aug-23, 09:46 PM
Personnally, I believe citizens should be allowed to own any weapon they like -- as long as it is powered by gravity or twisted rope.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 09:50 PM
Trebuchet, handheld slingshots, homemade or professional, are officially an illegal weapon in Belgium ever since they were used to attack cops in a demonstration.

On topic: I don't have furry arms. Need more info on my body anyone?

Comixx
2007-Aug-23, 09:53 PM
I'm partial to my scimitar, short sword, and katana...but if someone breaks into my house they're gonna find themselves on the dangerous end of my ExDee fortee from the armory in the Simpsons' home town...

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 10:06 PM
On a related note, my sister is in the armie. She's just back from Libanon, infirmary. She took care of some people who had hurt themselves while cleaning their wepon. You guessed it, without unlowding it first. One guy shod himself right in the foot with his pizdol. That wasn't too bad though. Another guy did the same thing with a mynymy. A foot has so many moving parts to it, little useless flesh. They had a hard time trying to save anything from a foot in which a whole load of bullests were pumped...Wouldn't be a suitable job for me, mylytari infirmary. She's specialised in burn wounds and surgery assistance, eeeeeew.

captain swoop
2007-Aug-23, 10:37 PM
what is it with stupid weapon threads? is it a macho thing?

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 10:39 PM
I don't know, might be a culture thing. Where I live, owning fire arms isn't exactly standard. Going outside wearing one is absolutely not-done. Heck, my sister who's in the army isn't even allowed to use real weapons in parades due to lack of exercise with them :).

I've never owned any fire arms and don't plan to. I'm young, but just old enough to have owned toys shaped quite realistically after real weapons before they got banned (for reasons of morality and abuse for crime). In practice, it means the toys still were black coloured and didn't have an orange end, at least not all of them. We had a plastic Uzi, try to sell that to children these days and you'll lose your commercant license immediately :D. But even though we had these plastic toys and used to play war with them a lot, they never attracted me to real weapons. At all. The closest I got to one was a toy gun with these BANG gunpowder rounds, but never something with projectiles apart from Playmobil pirate canons :).

You can still by BB gun replicas of real weapons but I think you need to have a certain age to buy them. I don't get the "abuse in crim" argument for the plastic toys though, because these replicas look identical to the real deal and on top of that shoot projectiles...

That said, I think shooting clubs, the serious sport kind, are a whole different story. "aiming clubs" should be a better description in fact. They have the weapon just for the sport of aiming well, hence it's not a weapon but simply a gun, something like a tennis racket or golf club. Thanks to the very strict and serious club rules here, people in this kind of shooting clubs pay the lowest insurance of any sport clubs! Accidents virtually never happen. But again, for these people it's the sport of a good aim like an archer does, the gun itself only is a relevant aspect to the sport in the sense of "being able to aim this good with this type", it is not a weapon here. They use some very powerful guns too, but always in the context of the aiming sport. These clubs tend to steer far away from anyone with anger problems or "gun as weapon" thoughts.

I don't know anyone who owns a gun other than one air gun for sports (as I said, owning weapons is not part of the local culture). I know one family who owned an alarm gun. (looks realistic, makes a loud bang but no projectiles involved). I see the point in that, it just might work and no responsibility/moral issues involved other than the risk of the other side of the story shooting a real gun on you...

In the UK, the regular cops don't carry firearms. I understand how that removes a heavy burden from their shoulders, and helps in the regular criminal to be less heavily armed. Last week I saw Belgian cops entering a train. Like almost all cops in the world, they carry a gun. The guns are passing each head and hand of the people in the train closely when the cops are walking through a train. Even when not being forced to use them themselves, I fully understand the burden of this responsibility and potential danger of cos carryin guns.

BigDon
2007-Aug-23, 10:51 PM
What are you ladys hiding from?

You do know there are active gun forums out there that probably aren't being investigated? Just popped into one to double check the spelling on "Vaquero" Play paranoia too long and you'll start to believe it. They ain't looking at the astronomy nerd sites.

I like Benelli shotguns and Ruger pistols. I'm saving up for a Ruger Vaquero Bird's Head chambered for .45 colt.

Comix, bet I could cut you in half faster with my Benelli than you could cut me in half with your katana. (I have a nice wakizashi) Its a full semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun chambered for 3-inch magnum. With the one ounce rifled slugs it can acheive through and through penitration of full SWAT body armor with the trauma plates installed. (Very good friend is on the local SWAT team)

Though this thread isn't fair to the poor Aussies and Brits and other subject races. You know those poor guys want them too. (You guys do know you can change laws back don't you?. You just have to try.)

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 10:57 PM
With the one ounce rifled slugs it can acheive through and through penitration of full SWAT body armor with the trauma plates installed. (Very good friend is on the local SWAT team)

Adding these two statements, I take it you pumped some lead in your friend? ;) :D

That said, I don't want a gun nor do I want my friends to have them. Doing fine as is. Besides, the gun laws aren't the problem. The practical lack of anything called "legal self defense" is a bigger issue. But even if it wasn't, I like a society with fewer blood stains on the wall and on the morality. I see no need whatsoever for a second amendment. Make sure it always is an unfair fight between cops and bad guys with the cops being in the advantageous position, and have the rest of the society enjoy an arms free life. It works here. Sure, somebody threatening you with a knife is a problem. It still is when you didn't have time to draw your gun. Knives are horrible enough without needing firearms on top of them. Just to be clear: it's also not-done to go outside armed with knives here. Many types of knives are illegal here too. I don't mind. I feel free going outside wearing no weapon at all, being quite sure all people around me also don't carry any weapon.

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-23, 11:02 PM
I own three handguns, Springfield Armory XD 9mm, Beretta 96 FS [that means it's .40 cal, as compared to the 92 FS which is 9mm] and a Magnum Research Baby Eagle 9mm. Of the three I really like the Baby Eagle. It's a full size frame with an all steel body. Yea, it's pretty heavy compared to something like the XDs or Glocks out there, but, with very little barrel lift, it sure does get back on-target fast.

For home defense, I keep a loaded Remington 870 Express 12 ga. next to my bed (no kids, and I don't keep a chell chambered). Like the guy I bought it from said, when you have a pump action shotgun, you speak 57 languages, and every one of them is saying "It's time for you to go". I hope I never have to use my shotgun against an intruder, but if it's my life or theirs, I plan on winning.

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-23, 11:03 PM
what is it with stupid weapon threads? is it a macho thing?

Guns are a hobby. We don't call your hobby's stupid.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-23, 11:08 PM
How does this hobby express itself? Collecting? Joining shooting clubs to learn to aim as good as possible in a sportive sense?

Because I don't see arming yourself and practical attack/defense techniques with a gun as a hobby. I can see how collecting guns (old or new) or joining sportive shooting clubs (not "hey I've got myself an uzi, look at them bottles breaking, one hand!" but "I scored 95% on the 150m targets with my magnum yesterday") can be a hobby.

Lurker
2007-Aug-23, 11:14 PM
How does this hobby express itself? Collecting? Joining shooting clubs to learn to aim as good as possible in a sportive sense?

Because I don't see arming yourself and practical attack/defense techniques with a gun as a hobby. I can see how collecting guns (old or new) or joining sportive shooting clubs (not "hey I've got myself an uzi, look at them bottles breaking, one hand!" but "I scored 95% on the 150m targets with my magnum yesterday") can be a hobby.
Well... if you line up the bottles and then aim your basic antitank weapon at them you're pretty sure to score 100% :whistle:

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-23, 11:23 PM
How does this hobby express itself? Collecting? Joining shooting clubs to learn to aim as good as possible in a sportive sense?

Because I don't see arming yourself and practical attack/defense techniques with a gun as a hobby. I can see how collecting guns (old or new) or joining sportive shooting clubs (not "hey I've got myself an uzi, look at them bottles breaking, one hand!" but "I scored 95% on the 150m targets with my magnum yesterday") can be a hobby.


Some people spend hours and hours designing cardboard tubes with combustible material in them made to shoot off into the sky. Some people collect little squares of adhesive paper with pictures on them that most people just use to send mail. Some people like to buy really expensive tubes with mirors in them and stare at lights in the night sky. I like to get my guns together, go out into the desert, and shoot at paper targets. Why is my hobby not a hobby? Is it because it can also be used to injure people? Can a model rocket be used to injure people?

BigDon
2007-Aug-23, 11:47 PM
How does this hobby express itself? Collecting? Joining shooting clubs to learn to aim as good as possible in a sportive sense?

Because I don't see arming yourself and practical attack/defense techniques with a gun as a hobby. I can see how collecting guns (old or new) or joining sportive shooting clubs (not "hey I've got myself an uzi, look at them bottles breaking, one hand!" but "I scored 95% on the 150m targets with my magnum yesterday") can be a hobby.

One of the beauties of the US is we can decide not to participate in the gun culture thing. Ask Soylentgreen, he doesn't like guns. And I will defend his right not to have one. We're both Americans after all. Though sadly, I feel he would disarm me in a heartbeat if he could. Oh well.

In your case the decision was made for you, by people who feel they know better than you what you can be trusted with. That doesn't bother you?

Lurker
2007-Aug-23, 11:56 PM
In your case the decision was made for you, by people who feel they know better than you what you can be trusted with. That doesn't bother you?
Actually some of us would just like to see the guns and the owners licensed... after all cars and their drivers are licensed...

I know... I know... neither are mentioned in the constitution... :rolls eyes:

Maksutov
2007-Aug-24, 12:07 AM
[edit]One guy shod himself right in the foot with his pizdol...."Shod"! That's a good one! :lol:

Guess the guy had run out of "gloock" that day.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 12:57 AM
Actually some of us would just like to see the guns and the owners licensed... after all cars and their drivers are licensed...

I know... I know... neither are mentioned in the constitution... :rolls eyes:


That's not the reason Lurk. :hand: You know how we have elections and new regimes every 2 to 4 years? Plausible deniability. We will never let a gun registry be used for conficating guns. Boom. Next election the new group in office uses the registry to confiscate the guns. The old regime spoke the truth, they didn't. Happened in California with the assault rifle registry.

Similar thing happened with the seat belt laws in California. The WHOLE campaign they were saying not wearing a seatbelt will never be used alone as a reason to pull you over. THAT lasted a half a year into the next election. Now they have TV commercials that have a "tough voiced" announcer saying "Click it or ticket!" And the cops laugh when they say that the majority of marijuanna busts occur due to pulling people over for seatbelt violations and they go through all their stuff.

That's the big flaw in the American system. A treaty or accord can only really be trusted until the next election.

Thats why we don't want a registry. Just because the present group is acting in good faith does mean next one will at all. Youngsters never see the advantage of the long perspective age gives you.

cjl
2007-Aug-24, 12:57 AM
Some people spend hours and hours designing cardboard tubes with combustible material in them made to shoot off into the sky. Some people collect little squares of adhesive paper with pictures on them that most people just use to send mail. Some people like to buy really expensive tubes with mirors in them and stare at lights in the night sky. I like to get my guns together, go out into the desert, and shoot at paper targets. Why is my hobby not a hobby? Is it because it can also be used to injure people? Can a model rocket be used to injure people?

Yes, but it isn't as easy.

On a side note, I really wish we rocketeers had a representation as large as the NRA. We've been having all kinds of legal problems lately :rolleyes:

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 03:04 AM
Yes, but it isn't as easy.

On a side note, I really wish we rocketeers had a representation as large as the NRA. We've been having all kinds of legal problems lately :rolleyes:

cjl, are you trying to tell me you couldn't come up with a kassam "missile" given two weeks and a garage shop set up? I thought you were more capable than that.


Well... if you line up the bottles and then aim your basic antitank weapon at them you're pretty sure to score 100%

Lurker, I like you and your postings and I refuse to dislike you over this silly *** subject, but you obviously don't know squat about basic anti-tank weapons either.

Unless you have an excellent weight budget you destroy armor with penetration, fragmentation (The intervening armor providing the fragments) and/or internal over pressure. 5000 atmospheres being the usual overpressure result of weapons designed for such duty. That kind of pressure in a oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere causes most organic material to combust. You know upholstery, papers, crew. The pressure being provided by a copper plasma stream generated by the warhead. What I'm getting at is most basic antitank weaponry has a very very narrow focus.

(A Maverick isn't a basic anti-tank weapon. That's an advanced antitank weapon.)

Cylinder
2007-Aug-24, 03:47 AM
...I really like the Baby Eagle...

I've been seriously eying the Baby Eagle as a carry weapon. What features do you like most/least about it?

My current favorite is the Bushmaster M4A3 carbine because of its general utility and the stupid grin it gives me every time I chamber a round. Hell, I may even brave the cold this fall when whitetail season opens.

My first firearm was a bolt action .410 caliber shotgun of unknown make that was passed to me when I turned 10 before I graduated to a Remmie Nylon .22 - black w/chrome finish and finally a Winnie Model 94 - the classic deer rifle.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 04:15 AM
Cyl, just passed on my father's "Remmie" Nylon .22 - black and chrome to my daughter. (She just turned 18)

My father used to do trick shooting with it. Keeping spent shotgun rounds airbourne while firing from the hip and such. They would only hit the ground after he ran dry. Plus the classic, shooting targets with the gun over his shoulder one handed while looking at the target with a hand mirror.

novaderrik
2007-Aug-24, 04:33 AM
i bet if anyone from one of those great countries that don't allow people to have guns was to visit the US and head to a practice range, they'd want to shoot stuff back home.
i haven't shot too many guns in my day, but it is a gratifying feeling when you squeeze the trigger and a watermelon 50 yards away immediately disintegrates.
or how about the effect of a .45 hollow point on a gallon milk jug full of water 50 yards away...

Cylinder
2007-Aug-24, 04:44 AM
Cyl, just passed on my father's "Remmie" Nylon .22 - black and chrome to my daughter. (She just turned 18)

Nice. Mine went to my nephew who should still have it.

cjl
2007-Aug-24, 04:49 AM
cjl, are you trying to tell me you couldn't come up with a kassam "missile" given two weeks and a garage shop set up? I thought you were more capable than that.

Rocket? Yes. Missile? No. Difference? The missile has active guidance. Active guidance is incredibly difficult on rockets like this, and with purely passive guidance, they are absolutely useless for any more accuracy than hitting the broad side of a barn from a hundred feet.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 05:25 AM
A kassam is only a missile in news reports. Its a big rocket. Less effective than even the Katyusha. You can probably find the plans on the 'net.

Jens
2007-Aug-24, 06:36 AM
In your case the decision was made for you, by people who feel they know better than you what you can be trusted with. That doesn't bother you?

Just curious, but would you support a person who liked collecting nuclear weapons? Or do you think that somebody else should make the decision that the person shouldn't?

For that matter, what about Kim Jong Il having nukes? Should somebody else be able to make a decision on what weapons he can possess?

Now, I'm not completely opposed to your position on this point. But it seems that some decision has to be made on things that are inherently dangerous, and things that could be dangerous, but have real uses. For example, kitchen knives are lethal weapons, but nobody proposes banning them because they are quite handy for preparing food.

Tog
2007-Aug-24, 06:50 AM
My all time favorite is an old 1911 I got in the 6th grade. From the serial number we place it's manufacture around 1945. The slide was made by Remington Rand (typewriter people) and the trigger has had a cross pattern filed into it by hand long enough ago that it's worn down to almost smooth again. It has the wolds ugliest adjustable sights, probably installed in a foxhole somewhere. Functionally, it works great. It will chamber an empty round, or a backwards one. The one issue it has is that the slide will drop on it's own if you insert a magazine with 4 or more rounds in it. It never misses the feed, and it's never had the hammer follow it down, but we can't figure why it does this. It's failed to do it three times that I can recall. It is also capable of consistently hitting a tennis ball at 25 yards. (I'm not.)

I also have a Redhawk, a Sig 230 (really like it) a "Ruger Luger" (not technically mine, but I use it more), a compact .45 that I use for my trips to the desert with the telescope. It functions great with snake shot loads. There is also a Contender with barrles for 9mm and .22 Hornet.

For a rifle, I'm not sure I have a favorite. My dad was always a real stickler about his rifles, so everything I've got is something he's tweaked. "Minute of angle" accuracy (1 inch group at 100 yds) was never a goal, it was a starting point. He'll work and tweak one until he got it down to 1/2 inch or better, otherwise it just wasn't worth his time. I do have to say that the .577 Nitro-Express was fun to shoot though. 100+ year old side by side double rifle. 650 grain bullet at 1850 fps and the gun weighed 11 pounds. You knew when it went off. I'm growing really fond of the larger falling block single shot rifles too. Actually the only semi auto rifle I have is a 10-22. I have a home built .270 that I never shoot, and everything else is single shot. I've never really thought about that before.

For Shotguns, I don't have a favorite because I can't hit anything with them. Go figure.

As for the US gun owner mentality, I think a lot of it is cultural. The rest of the world was well established, with borders, and wars, and leaders, long before gunpowder weapons came about. America wasn't. There were the native tribes, yes, but as far as colonization from Europe goes, guns have always played a part in American history. As a kid, we never played "King Arthur" or "Robin Hood", we played "Cowboys and Indians". Guns are very much a part of our culture and always have been. It's different in Europe. Europe had about 1000 years to develop before guns were known.

As for the "Macho Gun Owner" thing, I don't really see it being any more prevalent with guns than in anything else guys do. Yes, there are plenty of macho jerks with guns, but not all of us fit into that category. They are just the ones that get noticed. It's sort of like the reputation that the street racers in their tricked out 4 cylinder cars or the bullet bikers have. The really obnoxious ones get noticed and ruin it all for the rest of the people that just like to tinker.

novaderrik
2007-Aug-24, 07:02 AM
guns have uses, too.
they are great stress relievers for people- after a bad day at work, head out to a gravel pit with a box of shells and just shoot things up once and tell me there is no practical reason for citizens to have firearms.
they are also used for hunting. i personally don't hunt- if i need food, i go to the store and buy it. and blood and guts makes me feel queasy- but millions of people do it, so there must be something to it.
plus, the fact that there are millions of people out there with guns and a willingness and ability to accurately use them if it comes to it sort of helps to keep the ruling class from taking the masses for granted and forgetting who rules who in this country. but, worry not, they (the ruling class) are working that problem and trying to get rid of that little obstacle one piece at a time.

anything can be a weapon- i seem to recall hearing something mentioned on the news about 6 years ago about 19 people with box cutters hijacking airplanes and ramming them into buildings at full throttle when there were thousands of people in them just going about their daily business. how many guns were involved in that situation? do we need to ban box cutters? they already stopped letting people bring them- and pocket knives, and pretty much anything else- onto airplanes any more.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:10 AM
Some people spend hours and hours designing cardboard tubes with combustible material in them made to shoot off into the sky. Some people collect little squares of adhesive paper with pictures on them that most people just use to send mail. Some people like to buy really expensive tubes with mirors in them and stare at lights in the night sky. I like to get my guns together, go out into the desert, and shoot at paper targets. Why is my hobby not a hobby? Is it because it can also be used to injure people? Can a model rocket be used to injure people?

Please quote the part where I said this aspect of guns cannot be a hobby. You misunderstood me. The only thing I said was that defending yourself an sich is not a hobby (I didn't say it was good or bad), and that redneck behaviour also hardly is a hobby. I just asked how your hobby expresses itself, not how it can possibly be a hobby. Collecting firearms and trying them with a stable mindset indeed can be a hobby just like the two examples (collecting, aim sport) I gave. In fact what you describe is very closely related to the aim sport, because they too have to take the particulars of each firearm into account and therefore will want to try out different types, have their favourites etc, hence a hobby. Whether it's in the desert or in an inside club doesn't really matter as long as you're doing it serious. I've seen some redneck meetings who were shooting the heaviest weapons you can imagine while taking loads of booze and standing behind the shooting line only to urinate. I don't call that a hobby, that's just irresposible showing off and failing to grow up. A hobby is something where you can put your ideas, wishes (collecting) and skills in, which gives you mental satisfaction, which you enjoy being serious in. You seem to do that. These redneck things only have the collecting (no, call it showing off in their case, and then I'm leaving freud out of it ;)) and mental satisfaction aspect, but for the rest what they do is a bit like throwing firecrackers in an alley, only more dangerous. Not a hobby in that case.

Occam
2007-Aug-24, 07:17 AM
If we misspell everything.... perhaps we won’t show up on Homlaid Seecurty’s raidar.
Unlikely. I would imagine most members of the NRA spell like that anyway, so they'll take it into account when searching.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:24 AM
One of the beauties of the US is we can decide not to participate in the gun culture thing. Ask Soylentgreen, he doesn't like guns. And I will defend his right not to have one. We're both Americans after all. Though sadly, I feel he would disarm me in a heartbeat if he could. Oh well.

In your case the decision was made for you, by people who feel they know better than you what you can be trusted with. That doesn't bother you?

How do you get that out of my post? Funny, I just ask how the gun hobby expresses itself and two people jump into defense, as if I said "guns can't be a hobby". I only said that defending yourself is not a hobby an sich, just like making sure you don't freeze to death is not a hobby an sich. Collecting guns or practicing your aim, learning about the particulars of different guns, that can be a hobby, just like collecting coats and learning to make your own clothes.

About the decision thing: if I'd want a gun, I can have one legally, no problem. Having the gun thing regulated doesn't mean you can't buy them. It only means you can't buy them virtually everywhere, any time, little to no questions asked.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:24 AM
Unlikely. I would imagine most members of the NRA spell like that anyway, so they'll take it into account when searching.

LOL, subtle :D

sarongsong
2007-Aug-24, 07:25 AM
Favorite fir arm?
Why Port Orford Cedar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamaecyparis_lawsoniana), of course!
Makes for the best traditional wooden arrows (http://www.rosecityarchery.com/Press%20Release%20Photo%20arrows.jpg) due to its strength and straight grain, ideally propelled by a Bear Super Magnum Recurve (http://i22.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/b1/8e/ec2d_1.JPG).
[Bonus] Scent of broken arrows http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:30 AM
i bet if anyone from one of those great countries that don't allow people to have guns was to visit the US and head to a practice range, they'd want to shoot stuff back home.
i haven't shot too many guns in my day, but it is a gratifying feeling when you squeeze the trigger and a watermelon 50 yards away immediately disintegrates.
or how about the effect of a .45 hollow point on a gallon milk jug full of water 50 yards away...

Which countries don't allow people to have guns? Which countries don't have shooting ranges? I don't know any of these countries, so I'm curious. Countries with more than 1 million residents please :).

I live in Belgium, where few people have a fire arm if you exclude antique things. Not because you're not allowed to have a gun, but because it's not in the culture. If you want a gun, it takes quite some regulation and time, but you can have one. And there's plenty of shooting ranges so you can go if you want. And you can also try shooting without owning your own gun at some of these ranges. Really, having strictly regulated gun laws and a no-gun culture doesn't mean they're non-existent and we've never seen a shooting range except for on tv.

But you were talking about countries where guns are not allowed at all and shooting ranges unexisting, so that's still another situation. Only I don't know such countries.

Atraveller
2007-Aug-24, 07:39 AM
Just curious, but would you support a person who liked collecting nuclear weapons? Or do you think that somebody else should make the decision that the person shouldn't?

For that matter, what about Kim Jong Il having nukes? Should somebody else be able to make a decision on what weapons he can possess?

Now, I'm not completely opposed to your position on this point. But it seems that some decision has to be made on things that are inherently dangerous, and things that could be dangerous, but have real uses. For example, kitchen knives are lethal weapons, but nobody proposes banning them because they are quite handy for preparing food.

At the risk of posting something which goes over the board's guidelines - I would think any fir arm which used EE eqals Em Cee squared as a definition of it's fucntion would be my favorite... If good fences make good neighbors, and fir arms keep everyone polit - I would thing a broad scattering of ach based fir arms would keep the world a safer place...

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 07:41 AM
If good fences make good neighbors, and fir arms keep everyone polit - I would thing a broad scattering of ach based fir arms would keep the world a safer place...

Big if.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 11:13 AM
I had originally thought this thread would be a good idea.
I see that I was wrong.
It's intent was to discuss the specs and enjoyment in the history of firearms, as well as to brag and show off a bit.
If thats macho- fine. There's nothing wrong with being a man. There's nothing fruedian about it.
But several have jumped in who bear no support or interest in firearms to make politically minded comments.
As far as the weapon aspect goes:
Anything, just about, can be used as a weapon. If a person with harmful or criminal intent doesn't use a firearm, they will use a knife or a bat or whatever.

If a person with intent to defend family or self doesn't have a firearm they will use any and all means necessary to do so.
A firearm is a tool. Like a hunting knife is a tool.

This thread is for discussing something quite normal amoung enthusiasts. Lets please keep it that way.

In the US, the second Amendment was written for the purpose of ensuring that Our Nation is not disarmed. That is important to many of us considering history.

I am US Army and as a soldier I understand all too well a firearm, and a weapon. I'll fight for the right to bear them, and I'll fight for the freedom of others to dislike them.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 11:21 AM
Thanks for that last part of the last sentence,

because historically speaking our country has some good arguments for the importance of not disarming the country (as in, 2 world wars crushing the country without any reason other than the geological position of our country), my sis is in the army and had her firearms training in the past (and deals with them when on a mission), but she dislikes weapons and does not want to have one at home. She want the country to be armed through its army (it's in the word ;)), not through its citizens. That said, you do nothing illegal and therefore you owning weapons is a right, one which I have no intent in trying to take away from you.

(btw before you misunderstand me, the Freudian thing I talked about was not the owning of guns per se, but the redneck meeting "my gun is bigger than yours" showing off, going into ridiculous levels such as 6 barreled F-16 guns and small canons. Don't tell me they have those to defend their property :D. I know very well that you can own a gun, even a very big one, without any compensation or showing off being involved. For those guys, that didn't seem to be the case though...)

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 11:23 AM
Actually Jens, even as I wrote that I knew it was kind of stupid. It was more of a teasing prod at Nick. (I sometimes forget this isn't a private conversation, but a world-wide forum.)

As far as Kim goes, I believe in the sovereignty of nations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

Doesn't mean I like the Korean situation. But I've found my liking or disliking something is irrelevant to whether or not it is so.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 11:34 AM
Back on topic.

I forget the model number but my brother has a really sweet Ruger .45 ACP that was originally designed to be a 10mm but when the police decided not to go 10mm they did a fast back pedal and released it as a .45. So its way over engineered. Beautifully accurate. My daughters were unfazed by the recoil and Boo at 14yo was bull's eyeing beer cans at 30 paces with it. And with a .45 that's all as accurate as you need to be.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 11:44 AM
My fave has to be an elastic band ;). I can shoot it one handed now. More seriously, I don't own any fir arms, don't wish to own any and am not bothered about not having the free option to own any since that means that nobody else living near me is likely to have one that can cause an accident or even possibly worse. I mean, what could I possibly need it for? I held a real fir arm once, my cousin was a policeman and he gave me the gon to play with (minus the bollets) when I was a kid. His and my mothers nearly killed him, they were raging. Personally, I didn't like it. It felt heavy and uncomfortable. As for shooting mellons or stuff, can't say I see much appeal in it. At my most destructive youth I smashed a guitar once but that was more rock and roll thing. I'd take smashing of guitars over shooting bottles any day, and nowadays I wouldn't take smashing guitars any more either.

BTW

Well... if you line up the bottles and then aim your basic antitank weapon at them you're pretty sure to score 100%
lol

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 12:03 PM
You smashed a guitar?! To the stake! Call John Hiatt!

I've been wanting to have an electric for years and people just smash them to pieces.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 12:04 PM
(btw before you misunderstand me, the Freudian thing I talked about was not the owning of guns per se, but the redneck meeting "my gun is bigger than yours" showing off, going into ridiculous levels such as 6 barreled F-16 guns and small canons. Don't tell me they have those to defend their property :D. I know very well that you can own a gun, even a very big one, without any compensation or showing off being involved. For those guys, that didn't seem to be the case though...)

:think:

I just dont see a redneck packing a derringer...

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 12:06 PM
The Derringer is for his 4yo.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 12:15 PM
Neverfly, Nick you guys must not know many Texans. I've know a lot of rednecks who had Derringers. One Texan I knew in the Navy got one for his 18th birthday from a family friend who was a gunsmith. Over and under .45. What the family friend neglected to tell him was that both barrels fired when you pulled the trigger. Almost ended up eating it the first time he fired it.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 12:23 PM
You smashed a guitar?! To the stake! Call John Hiatt!

I've been wanting to have an electric for years and people just smash them to pieces.

Acoustic, actually, and it wasn't even mine:p! A few years back a couple of friends and I were out by the lakes around county Westmeath/Longford (where I lived at the time) and one of them brought a guitar out. He got rather drunk rather quickly and when I randomly asked him if I could smash the guitar he said yeah. So that's what I did, then we chucked it on the campfire, burned it, and salvaged the strings from the ashes. Don't want to be wasting things...;) I have an electric, acoustic and a classical guitar these days. The Classical is at my aunt's in Slovakia, so I don't get to play it much; I sold the amp to my electric a year and a half ago when I needed money for travelling, and now I usually just play acoustic. It's handy, you can just grab it and take off and you can make money with it anywhere without worrying about electricity supply. But I sometimes miss the days when I used to play distorted electric in a band... What make did you have in mind?

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 12:30 PM
SG junior with P90's. Not like they make the junior anymore, but anyway.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 12:35 PM
SG junior with P90's. Not like they make the junior anymore, but anyway.

Not bad. SGs are thoroughly underrated guitars ignored in favour of Les Pauls. I actually prefer SGs, the sound seems more fluid to me. But Cyclone is my personal favourite. By the way, from fir arms to axes, anyone see a pattern?

Nicolas
2007-Aug-24, 12:36 PM
Apart from a lovely guitar pickup, the P90 is also a very powerful Belgian firearm.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 12:37 PM
I had a .22 caliber one when I was a kid. Found it next to the cantina next door one morning. It had three little stick figure men stamped into the handle. (From an actual stamp like those letter thingys you have in metal shop. Who the hell would make those? Gee, would you make me a stamp so I could mark down how many people I've murdered with this gun?) I never told my folks about it and kept it for a long time until it blew up on me one day.

It said short round only but I kept using long rifle... Had it out at arm's length and even though most of it went out sideways (To the right) something came back and plastered my hair up on the right side of my head. Had three long shallow cuts that went up into my hairline and a gritty, metally burn there as well. Told mom I fell off my bike. (I was about 12) I threw it into the Bay after that.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 12:38 PM
Apart from a lovely guitar pickup, the P90 is also a very powerful Belgian firearm.

Interesting, though I think I'll stick with pickups...

Doodler
2007-Aug-24, 12:39 PM
Let's have a thread about our favorite Raffles, Peestols, and other Fir Arms. If we misspell everything related to Weeps, including the names of the manufacturers, such as Smeeth, Winch, Rugged, Clock, and Barnetta, perhaps we won’t show up on Homlaid Seecurty’s raidar.

Something, small, comfortable, quick loading, and with enough stopping power to reduce my target's brain to puree.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 12:40 PM
You guys are talking about the wrong kind of P90's and SiGs for this thread.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-24, 12:44 PM
You guys are talking about the wrong kind of P90's and SiGs for this thread.

My apologies, though the loving, techie, bragging talk of a guitar enthusiast and those of a fir arms one seem to be in principle the same with only the names of objects changed.:D

Argos
2007-Aug-24, 12:59 PM
Which countries don't allow people to have guns? Countries with more than 1 million residents please :).

Brazil, 200,000,000 people. You´re not [legally] allowed to carry a gun, and are only allowed to have one [of limited caliber] at your house after careful scrutiny of your life [among other things you have to prove you really need a gun].

Of course that does not prevent us from being the #2 country in gun-related deaths [the gun black market is prosperous].

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 01:01 PM
Brazil, 200,000,000 people. You´re not [legally] allowed to carry a gun, and are only allowed to have one [of limited caliber] at your house after careful scrutiny of your life [among other things you have to prove you really need a gun].

Of course that does not prevent us from being the #2 country in gun-related deaths [the gun black market is prosperous].

Some say: If you owtlaw guns, only owtlaws will have them:whistle:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 01:02 PM
Neverfly, Nick you guys must not know many Texans. I've know a lot of rednecks who had Derringers. One Texan I knew in the Navy got one for his 18th birthday from a family friend who was a gunsmith. Over and under .45. What the family friend neglected to tell him was that both barrels fired when you pulled the trigger. Almost ended up eating it the first time he fired it.

I live IN Texas! :lol:

Incidently, my 4 year old son is named Nick. (I'm NOT giving him a derringer!)

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 01:03 PM
Actually Pilgrim, no worries. Kid brother is one as well.

I was waiting for one of the regulars to call me on that one. I'm Mr. Highjack usually. Not to be rude, I'm just a little scatter brained.

Moose
2007-Aug-24, 01:05 PM
Joke answer (which I got beat to): Douglas, third branch from the top.

Semi-serious answer: Any gun with an open and empty breech. I have a thing for firearm safety.

Serious answer: I was quite fond of paper (or silhouette) shooting with my old bolt-action (tube-mag) .22. It had a bit of a history. The gun had been found in bad condition and rigged as a leg-trap for deer. An acquaintance of mine (who shall remain firmly unidentified) dismantled the leg-trap, restored the rifle, then sold it to me for $1.

It was sold, along with the other six weapons my family inherited, when the gun registry (in Canada) became mandatory. We weren't about to register seven rifles and shotguns at (around) a hundred bucks a pop. We're (very) occasional shooters/hunters at best.

Argos
2007-Aug-24, 01:06 PM
Some say: If you owtlaw guns, only owtlaws will have them:whistle:

That´s the problem with prohibitions. It should be prohibited to prohibit. :)

Doodler
2007-Aug-24, 01:09 PM
Some say: If you owtlaw guns, only owtlaws will have them:whistle:

A man with a weapon is a citizen. A man without a weapon is a subject.

A somewhat more pragmatic view.

Fazor
2007-Aug-24, 01:25 PM
I'm partial to my scimitar, short sword, and katana...but if someone breaks into my house they're gonna find themselves on the dangerous end of my ExDee fortee from the armory in the Simpsons' home town...

That was my service weapon, when I worked armed. Now that I work with only the two arms I was given at birth, it sits locked in the vault. But I love that gun. errr, I mean, ghaun.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 01:27 PM
(snip)

Semi-serious answer: Any gun with an open and empty breech. I have a thing for firearm safety.

(snip).


This is ticket isn't it?

From when I was old enough to handle the weight of a pistol, I was taught firearm safety.
I was taught how to respect the piece of equipment I was holding.
It was not a toy.
I was taught how it was used, when to use it and when not to.

My grandfather kept a Smith & Wesson .38 special under his bed pillow. It was always there still when I was ther unsupervised. I never once touched it to play with it. It wasn't unusual for me to move it when I helped my grandmother around the house by pulling bed sheets and such on washday.
I just was sure not to point it at self or others, same as I was careful in the kitchen with a cooking knife or cleaver
Or careful with the lawnmower
Or with .. oh the list will go on forever...

ETA: That pistol did indeed get used one time. By my grandmother. Some hooligans were messing around on our porch and my grandmother told them to leave. They gave her a lot of attitude and threatened her. She went and got the pistol and went back to the porch and offered to even the odds. When one reached for her she pistol whipped himn then leveled it at ones head. They decidedd that aggressive nogotiations had failed and retreat was in order. Police took the statement, commended her bravery and advised her that had she needed to shoot one to at least drag him halfway into the door.

Safety is indeed, key.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 02:51 PM
And do remember, as my dear ol' dad used to say, "If you have to shoot a man once, shoot him twice." My father was a very good homicide detective. He told me he had seen dozens of people killed by wounded men. I'll take him at his word.

As far as gun safety... I told Tog this one already. Man! I..will..never forget the day my Dad took me out shooting when I was a teen and I blew down the barrel of a .45 auto I just fired "just like in the movies".

Whew! It started with, "You do realize you just pointed a loaded gun at your own head?" He had that way of "not yelling" that was worse than if he had started hollering. He was very articulate and had an expressive voice. He was really angry that I didn't know any better than that.

(Boo did the same thing and I gave the same response my Dad gave me, thinking about him the whole time too. Funny how life works)

Tog
2007-Aug-24, 03:43 PM
As far as gun safety... I told Tog this one already. Man! I..will..never forget the day my Dad took me out shooting when I was a teen and I blew down the barrel of a .45 auto I just fired "just like in the movies".

My gun safety lecture was "Don't point at anything you don't want to die."

My moment of clarity came about 6 years later when I hung my hand down by my side while holding a .22 pistol that "just went off" ('cause my finger was on the trigger, and supporting the weight of the gun). I lost about an inch of shoelace that day, and missed my foot by about half that. I tend to be very aware of where my finger is in relation to the trigger now. Even on the hand scanners I used to use at work to read bar codes, I'd lay my finger down the side of the thing rather than let it ride on the trigger. I've also caught myself flipping on the safety when moving from one target to the next in a timed competition. Shoot 2, safety on, turn 5 degrees tot he left, safety off, shoot two...

I forgot that I also have a 22 derringer. It's double action and hammerless so it can be fired pretty quickly. The most accepted method is to lay your index finger down the barrel and point at your target, while firing with your middle finger. My GF's index finger is about 1/4 inch longer than the barrel, so we had to come up with something a little different for her.:) One day, for a laugh, I tried to hit a pumpkin at about 100 yards with it. The joke turned out to be on me. At 25 yards it hits about a foot high, at 100 yards, it's on. First try at an 8 inch pumpkin hit it. Well with one barrel anyway.

And what Neverfly said about anything being a weapon, I completely agree. I made something out of 5 sheets of newspaper that we managed to drive though 4 layers of cardboard about 6 times before it became too damaged to use. It was small enough to pass between ribs, and the neck wouldn't stand a chance. My martial arts instructor had a very practical view of weapons training, that included everything from classical Chinese spear fighting to how to fight using a ball point pen, or empty soda/beer can. We had a class on how to bite more effectively. BTW, three foot extension cords can do some wondrous things.:whistle:

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 03:58 PM
Tog, ever been hit across the back with a length of dog chain? The pain is paralysing. The weird part was it cut the hell out of me and my shirt but not the jacket I had on over both. That was a real nasty dust up. Folks got hurt. It was a group activity. (Wow that was twenty years ago, seems like last week)

Fazor
2007-Aug-24, 04:08 PM
Tog, ever been hit across the back with a length of dog chain? The pain is paralysing. The weird part was it cut the hell out of me and my shirt but not the jacket I had on over both. That was a real nasty dust up. Folks got hurt. It was a group activity. (Wow that was twenty years ago, seems like last week)

The more stories you tell, the more I find myself wondering if you're one of the two characters from the 1980's arcade classic "bad dudes". You never fought a big bald guy that breathes fire, or a corpe of ninjas atop a convoy of semitrucks, did you? :)

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 04:13 PM
No, this was a group of Mexicans. I was with a mixed group of Whites and other Mexicans. Had to do with seduced wives and sticking up for your friends. All the things that can land you in a box or in a cell.

Lurker
2007-Aug-24, 04:14 PM
We will never let a gun registry be used for conficating guns. Boom
Yeah... 'cause cars are confiscated all the time and it's a toss up each election if we will be allowed to keep our cars...

In California the issue has to do with Assault Weapons (http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm). It began as ill defined but California supreme court decisions have clarified the issue. I love this argument... one is not allowed to own grenades or anti-tank weapons either, but no one seems to find this an issue. :rolls eyes:

Or am I hijacking another thread here. Don't worry, I am not about to get into a religious argument over gun ownership nor am I going to discuss the issue of registration.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 04:19 PM
Yeah... 'cause cars are confiscated all the time and it's a toss up each election if we will be allowed to keep our cars...

In California the issue has to do with Assault Weapons (http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm). It began as ill defined but California supreme court decisions have clarified the issue. I love this argument... one is not allowed to own grenades or anti-tank weapons either, but no one seems to find this an issue. :rolls eyes:

Or am I hijacking another thread here. Don't worry, I am not about to get into a religious argument over gun ownership nor am I going to discuss the issue of registration.

Mr. Lurk, I don't mind the discussion, but as your opposite in this debate I have to mention your analogy here is a little weak. C'mon, you're intelligent and well spoken, you can come up with better. It's morning. Let the coffee sink in and try again.

Tog
2007-Aug-24, 04:20 PM
Tog, ever been hit across the back with a length of dog chain? The pain is paralysing. The weird part was it cut the hell out of me and my shirt but not the jacket I had on over both. That was a real nasty dust up. Folks got hurt. It was a group activity. (Wow that was twenty years ago, seems like last week)

Oooohhh no. I've been lucky in that the only real conflict I've been a part of has been tackling shoplifters or breaking up fights. The closest I've come to that was an incident while practicing with a chain whip I ended up taking the tip sideways across my temple at speed. The shape was just right to hit the thicker bone around the rim of my temple but not the thin bit in the middle. It dropped me to my knee and I can say that it hit every bit as hard as the aluminum softball bat the girl in the 5th grade threw that hit me in the forehead, but without all the pretty colors.

I've seen something close to what you describe with the jacket though. You need a potato in a plastic bag and a knife. Lightly hit the potato with the knife while it's still in the bag. It will make a cut in the potato, just like you'd expect, but the bag won't be cut at all. I've done this a few times. Maybe the same principal applies with the jacket. Either way, Yeowch!

Dr Nigel
2007-Aug-24, 04:22 PM
What is it with the handgun fetishes?

My fave man-portable weapon (that I have actually used) is the Karl Gustav 84mm MAW. The Milan TOW missile comes in a close second (although, I must confess, that one was only a simulator).

My fave firearm of all (that I have seen in use) is the Phalanx gun in an A10.

Fazor
2007-Aug-24, 05:07 PM
No, this was a group of Mexicans. I was with a mixed group of Whites and other Mexicans. Had to do with seduced wives and sticking up for your friends. All the things that can land you in a box or in a cell.

Oh, that must have been level 3...I never made it that far. :)

As far as gun control; I'm very opinionated on the subject, but we have already discussed it at great, great length here: Unbiased Research on The Effects of Gun Control (http://www.bautforum.com/general-science/51913-unbiased-research-effects-gun-control.html?highlight=control) (GenSci).

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 05:12 PM
I've been seriously eying the Baby Eagle as a carry weapon. What features do you like most/least about it?

Pros: One of the smoothest trigger pulls I've ever used. The trigger also wraps around your finger like it was designed with your finger in mind. The sights are prominent and easy to see quickly while bringing the barrel up. It gets back on target fast. External hammer and safety, but no cock-and-lock like the 1911's

Cons: For a carry weapon, it's kind of heavy. The tall sights can be a problem depending on your holster, if the end of the barrel sticks out the front sight can catch on the end of the holster. The take-down could. The "chambered" indicator doesn't stick up in a noticeable way at all, so you do need to keep track of the guns status (i know, basic gun safety anyway)

All in all, when I do go for my CCW permit, I will be going with my Baby.

captain swoop
2007-Aug-24, 05:12 PM
I used to be in a Shooting club, I had an Anschutze target rifle and I used to go Clay and Rough Shooting with a 12G Winchester.

I only have a Weihrauch HW100 S Precharge Air rifle now. because I have a firearms Certificate I can have unlimited power, it will out shoot a .22 rimfire and bribgs down rabbits at crazy ranges with a hollow point pellet or steel 'sabot' pellet.

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 05:15 PM
Please quote the part where I said this aspect of guns cannot be a hobby. You misunderstood me. The only thing I said was that defending yourself an sich is not a hobby (I didn't say it was good or bad), and that redneck behaviour also hardly is a hobby. I just asked how your hobby expresses itself, not how it can possibly be a hobby. Collecting firearms and trying them with a stable mindset indeed can be a hobby just like the two examples (collecting, aim sport) I gave. In fact what you describe is very closely related to the aim sport, because they too have to take the particulars of each firearm into account and therefore will want to try out different types, have their favourites etc, hence a hobby. Whether it's in the desert or in an inside club doesn't really matter as long as you're doing it serious. I've seen some redneck meetings who were shooting the heaviest weapons you can imagine while taking loads of booze and standing behind the shooting line only to urinate. I don't call that a hobby, that's just irresposible showing off and failing to grow up. A hobby is something where you can put your ideas, wishes (collecting) and skills in, which gives you mental satisfaction, which you enjoy being serious in. You seem to do that. These redneck things only have the collecting (no, call it showing off in their case, and then I'm leaving freud out of it ;)) and mental satisfaction aspect, but for the rest what they do is a bit like throwing firecrackers in an alley, only more dangerous. Not a hobby in that case.

I apologize, I misread what you were saying. Although I think training in the art of defense can be a hobby. Martial arts and boxing are considered hobbies, I don't see why learning to be the best with a gun, even if strictly for the sake of personal defense, should be any different.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 05:17 PM
That is funny how in Kelfazin's post where he quotes Nicolas, the word "hobby" is on top of itself like four times in a row.

I wanted to say it over and over.

Hobbyhobbyhobbyhobby...

The word starts sounding funny after a while...:p



ETA:

Okok COUNT 'EM! How many times does Nicolas say the word "hobby" in just that one post?:p There's a BUNCH! I feel like I'm counting 7's in the bible...

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 05:20 PM
HobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobby HobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobby HobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobby HobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobby HobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobbyHobby

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 05:23 PM
My favorite rifle is the AR-16. The recoil compensation makes it feel like you're shooting a BB gun. Of course, the shell is only marginally bigger than a .22, so that might have something to do with it too :)

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 05:24 PM
That is funny how in Kelfazin's post where he quotes Nicolas, the word "hobby" is on top of itself like four times in a row.

I wanted to say it over and over.

Hobbyhobbyhobbyhobby...

The word starts sounding funny after a while...:p



ETA:

Okok COUNT 'EM! How many times does Nicolas say the word "hobby" in just that one post?:p There's a BUNCH! I feel like I'm counting 7's in the bible...

Your resolution must be different, none of them stack on my screen :)

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 05:26 PM
The Scottsdale Shooters Clubs has a bunch of guns you can rent, from full auto SMG's to a HUMMER mounted .50cal MG that you can take on the track behind the range.

Urbane Guerrilla
2007-Aug-24, 05:32 PM
Just curious, but would you support a person who liked collecting nuclear weapons? Or do you think that somebody else should make the decision that the person shouldn't?

I'll step in here to draw the line at nuclear weapons, on these grounds: it is extraordinarily hard to find a way, on Earth at any rate, to use these instruments for their designed purpose in a moral way, that is, not causing unintended destruction or death.

This is something you can do with weapons of smaller scope, like pistols and Barrett Light Fifty rifles and assault rifles ("assault weapon" being a bogus hoplophobic term).


. . . and things that could be dangerous, but have real uses. For example, kitchen knives are lethal weapons, but nobody proposes banning them because they are quite handy for preparing food.

There are those who argue with justice that defending the lives of self or other is about as real a use as may be had. While the per-capita odds of doing this are pretty low, they are not zero, and when you need countervailing violence against criminal savagery and assault, you need it like oxygen. Gun bans ("control" in the antigun crusaders' sense is never control, but always "you can't have it") not only make for the safest possible conditions for criminals to commit crimes, but are the most efficient way on Earth to set up the precursors for genocides.

I am ferociously pro-gun, because I am really antigenocide: the one remedy ever found for genocides is prophylaxis: make it impractical. For genocide, you need three preexisting conditions, which may preexist, the research shows, for decades: hatred, however based or rationalized; governmental power, either to itself attack the hated out-group or to shelter the actions of those doing the attacking; and a disarmed, helpless targeted out-group. The most effective way ever found to disarm a population is to make arms-keeping illegal and self-defense likewise -- by law. Gun-control laws are the most effective seeds of genocides, and also the most vulnerable, as they may be nullified by repeal -- something you can't do with hatred, and aren't likely to manage with governments and their power.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-24, 05:40 PM
Your resolution must be different, none of them stack on my screen :)

awww shucks.
Well, so you don't miss out on the fun...:p

korjik
2007-Aug-24, 06:21 PM
M-60. Happiness is a belt-fed weapon :)

korjik
2007-Aug-24, 06:30 PM
Well... if you line up the bottles and then aim your basic antitank weapon at them you're pretty sure to score 100% :whistle:

It would be pretty hard to hit a bottle with a LAW at more than 50 yards.

korjik
2007-Aug-24, 06:47 PM
She want the country to be armed through its army (it's in the word ;)), not through its citizens.

That is where one of the biggest cultural differences lies. The second amendment of the US constitution is there just as much to allow the people to fight off the US goverment as much as to fight off criminals or invaders.
That is where Doodler's comment comes from.



(btw before you misunderstand me, the Freudian thing I talked about was not the owning of guns per se, but the redneck meeting "my gun is bigger than yours" showing off, going into ridiculous levels such as 6 barreled F-16 guns and small canons. Don't tell me they have those to defend their property :D. I know very well that you can own a gun, even a very big one, without any compensation or showing off being involved. For those guys, that didn't seem to be the case though...)

Except for the occasional bigot, which you actually get in any population, rednecks are some of the best people I have ever been around. Many would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it more than him.

Why is the desire to have the biggest and best wrong with firearms but not with cars, boats, planes, computers, televisions, houses, ect.....

They like things that go boom. I can seriously understand that, and (to answer Jen's question) if it is possible to do it safely, I dont think things should be restricted up to and including nukes, as long as it can be done safely. The last bit technically restricts larger weapons. I dont think it should be legally restricted.

SeanF
2007-Aug-24, 06:49 PM
My Dad was also the one who taught me that guns are deadly.

On account of he told me, "If I ever catch you playing with my guns, I'll kill you!" ;)

Seriously, I have two S&W .38 revolvers that used to belong to my Dad, and a Glock 26 9mm that my wife gave me for my birthday a few years back.


Actually some of us would just like to see the guns and the owners licensed... after all cars and their drivers are licensed...
I'm with Lurker.

There are no federal regulations on car licensing/registration. Where I live, I can go buy a car and drive it all over my property without needing a license or a registration - or a background check, for that matter. And I can buy as many as quickly as I want (or, at least, as many as I can afford). And since I am licensed to drive on the public roads in my home state, I am automatically legally authorized to drive just about any car on the public roads in all 50 states.

Lurker, let me know what you need from me to get guns under the same restrictions as cars, all right? :)

toejam
2007-Aug-24, 07:26 PM
TOG said:

For Shotguns, I don't have a favorite because I can't hit anything with them. Go figure.

TOG, how's your stereoscopic vision? My dad used to get angry with me when he saw me closing one eye to shoot a shotgun. "You need both eyes," he'd say. I told him it made no difference to me, things looked the same, one eye, two eyes. Other things - couldn't hit a cricket ball, hardly could hit a ball at tennis etc. This was years ago & not till my arms got too short to read a newspaper & I went to an ophthalmologist did I find out that I had no steroscopic vision. Always was a good shot with rifles, not so good with a shotgun, but passable because I liked that better.

Fazor
2007-Aug-24, 07:34 PM
TOG said:

For Shotguns, I don't have a favorite because I can't hit anything with them. Go figure.

TOG, how's your stereoscopic vision? My dad used to get angry with me when he saw me closing one eye to shoot a shotgun. "You need both eyes," he'd say. I told him it made no difference to me, things looked the same, one eye, two eyes. Other things - couldn't hit a cricket ball, hardly could hit a ball at tennis etc. This was years ago & not till my arms got too short to read a newspaper & I went to an ophthalmologist did I find out that I had no steroscopic vision. Always was a good shot with rifles, not so good with a shotgun, but passable because I liked that better.

Hmm...I've never understood how someone could be a bad shot with a shotgun, but you're not the only one. A guy in my academy class missed 5 for 5 on the straffing excersize with the shotgun...we were 8 (or 10?) feet from the target...so close the muzzle blast alone put holes through most people's targets.

edit: Just because above-story brought me back down memory lane, the room clearing excersize was the most fun. Two of us would round the corner, the lead dropping to his knee and the second officer firing over his shoulder at targets the instructors called out. Close second was the active shooter responce (for like a Columbine-type situation...and I mean the *training* was fun, an actual situation would most defenately NOT be.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-24, 08:33 PM
There are no federal regulations on car licensing/registration. Where I live, I can go buy a car and drive it all over my property without needing a license or a registration - or a background check, for that matter. And I can buy as many as quickly as I want (or, at least, as many as I can afford). And since I am licensed to drive on the public roads in my home state, I am automatically legally authorized to drive just about any car on the public roads in all 50 states.

Lurker, let me know what you need from me to get guns under the same restrictions as cars, all right? :)

(Edit: This should have been a response to Lurker - but I'm not changing it now).

The difference is that there there aren't any serious attempts to ban cars, or groups looking to regulate cars as a prelude to ban cars. If guns were placed under "the same restrictions as cars" and people could be reasonably sure that it wouldn't change to a ban, I think there would be far less resistance to the idea.

pizzaguy
2007-Aug-24, 08:47 PM
Something, small, comfortable, quick loading, and with enough stopping power to reduce my target's brain to puree.

Exactly what I carry, the Taurus 605 in .357 magnum. 5 shots and it fits in a jeans pocket!

It's the only gun I own, when I get to being debt-free (late in 2008 or early 2009) I am gonna pick up a good semi-auto rifle but not sure yet in what caliber.

(Good to meet you on the 'net again, Mental!)

korjik
2007-Aug-24, 09:34 PM
Hmm...I've never understood how someone could be a bad shot with a shotgun, but you're not the only one. A guy in my academy class missed 5 for 5 on the straffing excersize with the shotgun...we were 8 (or 10?) feet from the target...so close the muzzle blast alone put holes through most people's targets.

edit: Just because above-story brought me back down memory lane, the room clearing excersize was the most fun. Two of us would round the corner, the lead dropping to his knee and the second officer firing over his shoulder at targets the instructors called out. Close second was the active shooter responce (for like a Columbine-type situation...and I mean the *training* was fun, an actual situation would most defenately NOT be.

The training is always alot more fun that the real thing when guns are involved. :)

Kelfazin
2007-Aug-24, 09:52 PM
I used to want an 800 series Beretta Cougar, but they stopped making them about a year before I could buy one. They introduced the PX4 Storm as a replacement. but I've never fired one and they feel kind of cheap. So instead, I'm not sure what my next purchase will be. Probably a Ruger Mk III .22 with the tapered barrel instead of the bull nose barrel.

BigDon
2007-Aug-24, 09:52 PM
Yeah, the "two way shooting range" sucks.

So who here has ever been shot at? Ol' Winnie Churchhill was quite correct when he said, "Few this in this world are as exhilarating as being shot at and missed."

Though we have another saying, which may just local, which we use to express a really hard or difficult day. "I feel shot at and missed, and "pooped" at and hit". The meter works out a little better when you use another word for "poop".

Oh, and the wierd name award now that I'm thinking of it. In the company ahead of me in boot camp there was a guy who's father admire Churchhill so much he legally changed his last name to "Winstonchurchhillhill". (yes, two hills) His poor son's name stencil on his uniform extended under his armpit and on to his back. Other company commanders, coming up from behind, would presume he somehow screwed up the stenciling really badly and lock his heels. Then when they saw the front, they'ed demand an explaination.

hhEb09'1
2007-Aug-24, 10:56 PM
Rocket? Yes. Missile? No. Difference? The missile has active guidance. Active guidance is incredibly difficult on rockets like this, and with purely passive guidance, they are absolutely useless for any more accuracy than hitting the broad side of a barn from a hundred feet.You're not saying that the definition of missile implies active guidance, are you?
(Edit: This should have been a response to Lurker - but I'm not changing it now).

The difference is that there there aren't any serious attempts to ban cars, or groups looking to regulate cars as a prelude to ban cars. If guns were placed under "the same restrictions as cars" and people could be reasonably sure that it wouldn't change to a ban, I think there would be far less resistance to the idea.In making your reply to Sean F, you seem to have completely missed his point. I was about to make the same point (http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/guns.htm) to Lurker.

What Sean F is saying, is, guns are more regulated than cars, in a lot of senses, and Sean F would be happy if guns were only regulated as much as cars. Lurker seems to think that the regulation of cars is an argument for more regulation of guns, whereas Sean F points out that a lot of gun advocates would be overjoyed if guns were only regulated as much as cars.

korjik
2007-Aug-24, 10:58 PM
Yeah, the "two way shooting range" sucks.

So who here has ever been shot at? Ol' Winnie Churchhill was quite correct when he said, "Few this in this world are as exhilarating as being shot at and missed."

Though we have another saying, which may just local, which we use to express a really hard or difficult day. "I feel shot at and missed, and "pooped" at and hit". The meter works out a little better when you use another word for "poop".

Oh, and the wierd name award now that I'm thinking of it. In the company ahead of me in boot camp there was a guy who's father admire Churchhill so much he legally changed his last name to "Winstonchurchhillhill". (yes, two hills) His poor son's name stencil on his uniform extended under his armpit and on to his back. Other company commanders, coming up from behind, would presume he somehow screwed up the stenciling really badly and lock his heels. Then when they saw the front, they'ed demand an explaination.

Shot at? Depends on how you want to cut it. I had a couple mortar rounds lobbed toward our convoy by some Iraqis that took exception to us (Desert Storm), but the real skivvie changer was when the Air Force did some hi speed highway (de)construction on an overpass about half a mile away.

Oddly enough, I really dont like to be suprised by loud bangs anymore :)

captain swoop
2007-Aug-24, 11:17 PM
Hmm...I've never understood how someone could be a bad shot with a shotgun, [/I]

try getting a Wood Pigeon or rabbit startled out of cover, they are fast.

BigDon
2007-Aug-25, 11:01 AM
You're not saying that the definition of missile implies active guidance, are you?.


Okaaay, what's your definition of a modern missile hhEb09'1? 'Cause I've been telling folks for decades thats the difference between missiles and rockets.

And the term active guidance. While that is a mode of operation for missiles with on-board radar, I presume you just meant the ability for non-balistic, non-gyroscopic course correction?

(I'm just trying to establish the terms we are both using as being the same)

hhEb09'1
2007-Aug-25, 01:36 PM
Okaaay, what's your definition of a modern missile hhEb09'1? 'Cause I've been telling folks for decades thats the difference between missiles and rockets.What's a ballistic missile then? As in, Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM)?

PS: OK, Here's the V2 wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket), "the first ballistic missile". I can't see that it has much more guidance than modern rockets. I always thought the distinction between rocket and missile was that the latter had a target (I was once charged and fined for "throwing missiles", I guess I was always destined to work for LMSC.)

PSS: Looked for the Missile wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile), it says "A missile (see also pronunciation differences) is a self-propelled, explosive projectile used as a weapon towards a target." Weird, that doesn't seem to include snowballs. I'll have to talk to that judge in Laramie WY.

PSSS: Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/missile) (AmeHerDic): 1) An object or weapon that is fired, thrown, dropped, or otherwise projected at a target; a projectile. [rats] 2) A guided missile. 3) A ballistic missile.

Kyle Edwards
2007-Aug-25, 02:25 PM
Just curious, but would you support a person who liked collecting nuclear weapons? Or do you think that somebody else should make the decision that the person shouldn't?

For that matter, what about Kim Jong Il having nukes? Should somebody else be able to make a decision on what weapons he can possess?

Now, I'm not completely opposed to your position on this point. But it seems that some decision has to be made on things that are inherently dangerous, and things that could be dangerous, but have real uses. For example, kitchen knives are lethal weapons, but nobody proposes banning them because they are quite handy for preparing food.

Every time guns are mentioned on the internet someone brings up the ridiculously lame nuclear weapons straw man.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-25, 02:50 PM
Every time guns are mentioned on the internet someone brings up the ridiculously lame nuclear weapons straw man.

Ahh but it's a good thing Jens did (whos posts I normally enjoy).
I've never seen you before. :neutral:
In your sig is a link to your work?

Which I clicked...

Resulting in me seeing beauitful work:D

Deterministic with a hint of Mandlebrot. Thanks Jens:D


ETA: The moon album is outstanding. Thats professional quality work. And at 17, you should hold your Head High ;)

toejam
2007-Aug-25, 08:03 PM
try getting a Wood Pigion or rabbit startled out of cover, they are fast.

Or a zig-zagging Snipe...

Neverfly
2007-Aug-25, 08:11 PM
I found this interesting. Im sure many here have heard of it but for those who haven't...

This firearm has a snap fold butt with a digital camera attached. Essentially you can see around corners and fire from around the corner as well. Designed for urban combat, it allows you to locate your target and fire without exposing yourself.
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/corner.aspx
Dirty Harry would hate it:D

Moose
2007-Aug-25, 10:17 PM
Or a zig-zagging Snipe...

Never even saw one the four autumns I hunted them. :( Switched to partridge. They're easier.

BigDon
2007-Aug-25, 10:51 PM
hhEb09'1, I can see were this is going to be too easy to get all crossed up in semantics.

Simplist way to say this would be rockets are "dumb" and missiles are "smart".
If it can see the world it's a missile. (And neither explaination is making me happy either.)

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-25, 11:10 PM
Since this is just another “stupid weapon thread”…………………

Like I said in the Avatar thread, I like Rugers. IMO they have many different models that have some superior features. I no longer have my GP100, but it was a rugged, tough, straight-shootin’ .357 Magnum. I still have the SP101, which I carry while hiking because it is compact, and yet extremely rugged. My backup target pistol is a Ruger MkII. I also have a Mini-14 and a 10-22.

Browning makes great guns too. My main target pistol is a Browning Buckmark, and my main hunting rifle is a Browning BAR 300 WinMag.

My best all-around pistol is a Sig P229 in .357Sig. IMO, the .357Sig cartridge is the best medium caliber round, with nearly the ballistics of a .357 Magnum, but designed for semi-auto pistols.

BigDon
2007-Aug-25, 11:55 PM
As far as fun with shotguns.

I'm a very good shot with a shotgun. When I shoot skeet I can't stand to have the gun up against my shoulder and braced. It ruins my "zone". I always have the gun down near my waist, barrel down, when I yell "pull" which often confuses the guy operating the launcher. I then "take my time in a hurry" see the direction of flight, and nail the pigeon. I consistantly score well if not perfect.

Frantic Freddie
2007-Aug-26, 03:39 AM
My favorite gun is....


well,depends on the situation.

MentalAvenger,I recently tried the SIG & was so impressed that I may buy one.

BigDon,I'm a big fan of Remington 870s,I have 2,an Express Super Magnum,3.5" & interchangeable chokes,it'll hunt anything I need it to & "Thumper",a Police Magnum (it really was a cop gun),3" & 18" barrel,Sidesaddle & heatshield,it only gets fed 3" 00 & slugs,not a gun for the inexperienced.Not a hunting gun,purely for "social occasions" :)

Charlie in Dayton
2007-Aug-26, 04:59 AM
What's my favorite firearm? Well, being infected with an extreme case of cheepnis, I tend toward the 22 rimfire family for recreational use. Faves that are currently in the closet...Ruger SingleSix with 9 1/2" barrel and the LR/Mag cylinders...Ruger Mark II with the 10" barrel and a scope...Browning BL-22 (1894 Winchester lever action clone...I so do enjoy the look of those rifles...pure cowboy...)...a Mossberg 144 target rifle, with peep sights...

Now, me'n'middle'n'little brothers recently took a trip to the Arizona hinterlands for some male bonding...we had 45's, 9's, 38's, 357's, 22's...my brothers found out the hard way that on their best day, they can't outshoot me on my worst...turns out I'm hell on wheels with an iron-sighted lever action 38/357...

For defense of the home, one of Dad's old 12ga shotguns serves quite nicely.

If I was in the mood to purchase something for carry, I lean a tad toward the revolver kingdom. No springs to take a set, no levers to click, no slides to rack...just point and kaboom. Caliber? The bigger the better. They do make 45 revolvers...45 Long Colt, 45 ACP, things like that...

I saw an ad in the latest American Rifleman for a new Taurus...45 Long Colt or 2 3/4" .410 shotshells, interchangeable...doesn't matter what comes under the hammer, if the first one doesn't get 'em, the second one will...

I've never taken a concealed carry course because up to this point, I have no desire to carry. However, after talking to little brother, I just may take a course for the classroom training in legalities etc...education never hurt anyone.

Other than that, I'm a firm believer in the Second Amendment. My decision to exercise my Second Amendment rights does not automatically make me one of the bad guys, any more than someone else's decision NOT to exercise those rights automatically makes them one of the good guys.

So...who's next?

Dr Nigel
2007-Aug-26, 02:12 PM
Hmm...I've never understood how someone could be a bad shot with a shotgun, but you're not the only one. A guy in my academy class missed 5 for 5 on the straffing excersize with the shotgun...we were 8 (or 10?) feet from the target...so close the muzzle blast alone put holes through most people's targets.


You remind me of the one and only time I've fired a Stirling SMG: on single-shot, it was pretty easy to hit the targets (slabs of lead standing on a base) from 25 yards. On "automatic" I didn't hit anything except the sand behind the targets.

Dr Nigel
2007-Aug-26, 02:16 PM
So who here has ever been shot at? Ol' Winnie Churchhill was quite correct when he said, "Few this in this world are as exhilarating as being shot at and missed."

And this reminds me of being in the butts on the firing range. The .303 rifles sounded different (Crack-Bang! instead of the other way around) because you heard the somic crack as the bullet passed overhead before your heard the sound of the charge that expelled it.

I've never been shot at in anger, a fact for which I am profoundly grateful.

BigDon
2007-Aug-26, 11:28 PM
Doc, that's because you don't live near Hunter's Point. (The "really bad" part of San Francisco) Even the Coast Guard will tell you not to fish off Hunter's Point. It's on the Bay side of the SF peninsula

Nicolas
2007-Aug-27, 10:32 AM
Brazil, 200,000,000 people. You´re not [legally] allowed to carry a gun, and are only allowed to have one [of limited caliber] at your house after careful scrutiny of your life [among other things you have to prove you really need a gun].

Of course that does not prevent us from being the #2 country in gun-related deaths [the gun black market is prosperous].

I didn't know that.

With legally allowed you mean cops and such?

Nicolas
2007-Aug-27, 10:43 AM
I apologize, I misread what you were saying. Although I think training in the art of defense can be a hobby. Martial arts and boxing are considered hobbies, I don't see why learning to be the best with a gun, even if strictly for the sake of personal defense, should be any different.

You have a point there, the "being as good as possible at it" aspect of defending yourself can indeed be a hobby too. Oh and apologies accepted :).

V-GER
2007-Aug-27, 01:55 PM
I haven't fired a gun since the army so I'd have to pick the Kalashikov copy RK-62 assault rifle as my favorite. It's the only one I could still use without practicing first.

Trantor
2007-Aug-27, 03:22 PM
I currently own 4 firearms; two handguns and two rifles. My favotrite to shoot with is a Ruger 22 rimfire rifle. I've owned this rifle since the early 80's and it's fun to shoot targets with. Of course, most of the fun is the fact that it's so much easier on the wallet to use this firearm instead of my other guns. Shooting 357 magnum rounds is always fun, but I limit my shooting to 50 rounds or less with this weapon. The price of ammo these days is truly nuts.

MentalAvenger
2007-Sep-20, 04:09 AM
Ok, let’s take this to the next level. If money were no object, and you didn’t have to worry about laws against certain types of weapons such as full automatics, and there was a place nearby where you could fire that weapon whenever you wanted to, what firearm would you like to own. (and use)?

For me it would be the Barrett Model 82A1/M107 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx) 29 inch bbl.

Frantic Freddie
2007-Sep-20, 05:45 PM
Ok, let’s take this to the next level. If money were no object, and you didn’t have to worry about laws against certain types of weapons such as full automatics, and there was a place nearby where you could fire that weapon whenever you wanted to, what firearm would you like to own. (and use)?

For me it would be the Barrett Model 82A1/M107 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx) 29 inch bbl.

Hey,that's where I live! :lol:

I'm with you on the Barrett,love to have one.But with money bein' no object,I'd like to have a 1928A1 Thompson,the one with the Cutts compensator & straight forearm,Sgt. Saunders (Vic Morrow) was my hero when I was a kid.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-20, 07:52 PM
Hm, I would have to say either the fully-auto low-recoil shotgun I saw on futureweapons last night (with the 32 shell drum), or go all out and get one of those hip-mounted miniguns from Predator. :)

BigDon
2007-Sep-20, 07:56 PM
I'd like to try one of the high end nitro express guns. Like the .600 or the .650. Read a bunch of stories from the ol' big game hunter days as a kid. Nice to have something you know can bring down a charging T-rex. (With the right shot placement) Though in California where I live, even pocessing the ammo for one is a serious felony. (And we don't seem to have many T-rex's left)

BigDon
2007-Sep-20, 08:00 PM
Hey Kel! Score one of those semi-auto Benelli 12 gauges.
if you live were you don't have to have the magazine plug you can cram 7 rounds in there and fire them all in less than 2 seconds. Sounds like one long report.

MentalAvenger
2007-Sep-21, 02:28 AM
I have a Beretta 1200FP 12 gauge. It has the Benelli action, cylinder bore, rifle sights, alloy receiver and synthetic stock. It is an awesome weapon. No pistol grip or any other nonsense, just super high quality reliability. It is also lightweight, but the Benelli system helps with the recoil.

BigDon
2007-Sep-21, 03:33 AM
What's so nonsensical about a pistol grip? Provides excellent control.

MentalAvenger
2007-Sep-21, 05:05 AM
Really? Ever fired a shotgun from the hip? “Control” is a lot less critical than aim. The conventional stock provides adequate control. I have never found a pistol grip to be of any advantage, and it can interfere with storage and quick access. I tried pistol grips on several firearms, but always found them to have more disadvantages than advantages. IMO, the only time a pistol grip is practical is in a bull pup configuration. IMO :). Perhaps you have some additional input that might alter my perception.

Neverfly
2007-Sep-21, 05:31 AM
Training with the M-16 wasn't easy for me because I needed to get it out of my head that I wasn't going to get them to issue me an M-1 just because Im stubborn.
Elbow down, hand gripped... Took getting used too.. <sigh>

For accuracy and a steady shot you dont want a pistol gripped weapon.

But for those who continuously trained on them, you get used to it and still develop your accuracy.
Some of my buddies bought pistol grip for that reason. Their first time firing a rifle was in Basic Training. From there on out- the pistol grip was all they knew.

Tog
2007-Sep-21, 06:16 AM
I'd like to try one of the high end nitro express guns. Like the .600 or the .650. Read a bunch of stories from the ol' big game hunter days as a kid. Nice to have something you know can bring down a charging T-rex. (With the right shot placement) Though in California where I live, even pocessing the ammo for one is a serious felony. (And we don't seem to have many T-rex's left)

My dad had a Hollis .577 NE that was made around 1890 from what we could tell. It was the "light" version. 11 pounds firing a 650 grain bullet at 1850 PS. The full version was 14 pounds and fired a 750 grain bullet around 2000 fps. The first day we took his out, we both put about 10 rounds through it. I could make out the stitching from my shirt in the bruise. I'd lean way into it and it would still knock me back two steps. It could also hit a rock the size of a medium (27") TV at 500 yards with the notch sight that was marked 500. On a bright day, the fireball from the front was "only" about 2 feet across. That was an awesome gun.

You did have to alter your grip a bit though. If you wrapped your thumb around the stock, it would hit you in the left side of your nose, and keep pushing until it slipped off over by your right ear. This hurt. The lever that was used to open it was mounted under the trigger guard and would hit right on the center of the big (now swollen) knuckle of your middle finger. Your left hand may or may not have been able to keep old of the fore end. Basically, you propped it up as best you could then let go of it. As soon as it went off, you'd start grabbing stuff. Most people wouldn't shoot it once they saw it go off.

Oh, and you know they make a 700, right?:D The thing that's cool about them is that the recoil is huge, but it's gradual. One reviewer of the 700 said something like, It's like a having a friendly 200 pound St. Bernard leap into your arms.

Trantor
2007-Sep-21, 04:06 PM
Really? Ever fired a shotgun from the hip? “Control” is a lot less critical than aim. The conventional stock provides adequate control. I have never found a pistol grip to be of any advantage, and it can interfere with storage and quick access. I tried pistol grips on several firearms, but always found them to have more disadvantages than advantages. IMO, the only time a pistol grip is practical is in a bull pup configuration. IMO :). Perhaps you have some additional input that might alter my perception.

I generally agree. I keep my 18 inch shootgun's pistol grip on for home protection(where it's nice for close encounters), but for outdoor shooting, hitting your target is much harder using a pistol grip. Shooting from the hip is fun and certainly looks cool, just don't expect great accuracy.

Frantic Freddie
2007-Sep-22, 01:43 AM
With the heavy loads I prefer in my HD shotgun a pistol grip is worthless & like you said Trantor,not very accurate.

My friend told me a story about him driving with a couple of guys dove hunting & they saw some,so this genius sticks his pistol gripped shotgun out the window (since when do you hunt with one of those?) sighting down the barrel with the butt about an inch from his face.

They took him to the hospital to have his eye put back in the socket & his cheekbone rebuilt.

BigDon
2007-Sep-22, 02:14 AM
Well just so we are all on the same page, I'm talking about having both the stock and a pistol grip on the same weapon. Doesn't seem to adversely effect aim.

Lurker
2007-Sep-22, 02:23 AM
hmmmmmmm.... I'm a pacifist so I guess that would be the pen in my case... or maybe just love...
[ NeverFly seems to think my interpretation of that is pretty dangerous... :p ]

DOOMMaster
2007-Sep-22, 02:38 AM
My favorite would still have to be my 1911A1. Love that gun, also my first one ever. But I've taken a liking to my SKS and my Ruger 10/22 rifle as well. Very fun to shoot.

And this will be the only post I make in this thread. I've seen enough anti-gun ignorance after reading through this thread to make my stomach turn. Amazing how far they'll go to distort the truth and just plain lie to try to advance their sad and very wrong agenda.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-22, 02:56 AM
Hey Kel! Score one of those semi-auto Benelli 12 gauges.
if you live were you don't have to have the magazine plug you can cram 7 rounds in there and fire them all in less than 2 seconds. Sounds like one long report.

7 round semi auto vs. 32 round full auto? I'll take the full auto! :)

BTW I found out the shotgun is named the AA 12, you can see a bunch of demos on YouTube, including a guy that shoot about 5 rounds on full auto holding the gun with one hand. That's pretty good recoil compensation lol.

Neverfly
2007-Sep-22, 04:45 AM
hmmmmmmm.... I'm a pacifist so I guess that would be the pen in my case... or maybe just love...
[ NeverFly seems to think my interpretation of that is pretty dangerous... :p ]

Agreed.:)

Delvo
2007-Sep-22, 05:12 AM
What's the difference between a 1911 and another semiautomatic pistol? How do you identify them?

MentalAvenger
2007-Sep-22, 05:56 AM
The 1911 pistol is really a highly copied design, originally designed for the military (http://www.m1911.org/full_history.htm) by John Browning.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-23, 03:08 AM
Also the 1911 model is the gun on nearly every cover of every handgun magazine. In fact it's because of the number of articles on the various 1911's that I cancelled my subscriptions to Guns and Ammo and Handgun Magazine. I don't have any desire to shoot, let alone own, a 1911 and that's all they talk about. I got sick of it.

Lurker
2007-Sep-23, 06:57 PM
My favorite would still have to be my 1911A1. Love that gun, also my first one ever. But I've taken a liking to my SKS and my Ruger 10/22 rifle as well. Very fun to shoot.

And this will be the only post I make in this thread. I've seen enough anti-gun ignorance after reading through this thread to make my stomach turn. Amazing how far they'll go to distort the truth and just plain lie to try to advance their sad and very wrong agenda.


Awwwwww, I love you too...
:)

toejam
2007-Sep-23, 07:53 PM
I'd like to try one of the high end nitro express guns. Like the .600 or the .650. Read a bunch of stories from the ol' big game hunter days as a kid. Nice to have something you know can bring down a charging T-rex. (With the right shot placement) Though in California where I live, even pocessing the ammo for one is a serious felony. (And we don't seem to have many T-rex's left)

How about the even older, Black Powder, artillery? The "elephant guns".

A common one was a Holland & Holland 10 bore (ie 10 gauge rifle, not shotgun). It fired a 1&1/2 oz spherical ball bullet using 8 drams of BP. Was considered "not really heavy enough".

So a man called Sharpe, one of the most famous hunters in British Central Africa, later a Governor of Nyasaland (now Malawi), used an 8 bore, 4 oz spherical ball, 12 drams of BP.

And a man called Jackson had a 4 bore, but unfortunately I have no figures for what that cannon fired.


What these killers and others like them of all nationalities in all of Africa did to the elephant population can be judged by the fact that imports of ivory to Llondon for 32 years AVERAGED 530 TONS per annum. This not counting the great imports to Antwerp, Liverpool and Bombay. At least 75 000 elephants a year were killed. It was an industry based on self-styled "sportsmen".

toejam
2007-Sep-23, 08:06 PM
Deleted 2ble post

Neverfly
2007-Sep-23, 09:20 PM
I was WONDERING when this thread would get around to Black Powder:D:D:D

BigDon
2007-Sep-23, 09:24 PM
I hear an echo...

Toe, ever read a book called Hunter, written by a man named John Hunter? really good auto-biograghy of a big game hunter turn conservationist, like a lot of them became as they aged. Had the record, which he sincerely hoped nobody would try to beat, for the most black rhinos.

He was hired by the people building a railroad in Kenya who were losing a Godaweful amount of workers a month, in the neighborhood of 50 to 60 as they went through the flat thornbush country. John had to kill over 2,000black rhinos so the railroad could be completed and he hoped nobody would ever do that again. And that wasn't even the whole book, just a chapter.

He also dealt with: rogue elephants, the largest pride of man eating lions ever recorded with over 40 adult females, maneating leopards which almost always rack up bigger scores than either lions or tigers when they go bad.

The way it goes with big cats is a tiger will lurk at the outskirts, a lion wil walk down the main street of your villaige and a leopard will come into your house. Which is true. leopards are stealthy enough to live quite close to humans and can force open most modern doors simply by putting their faces in the corner near the knob and springing the jam.

mugaliens
2007-Sep-23, 11:12 PM
I have two, both .44 caliber. One's a cap and ball black powder revolver, the other's a Ruger Redhawk (actually my Dad's, but I accessorised it and claim it at my own).

He can keep the James Bond weapon.

Delvo
2007-Sep-24, 12:18 AM
I keep a pistol at home, and take it with me when on driving trips, just in case of emergency. (Oddly, the only time I've needed to deal with someone trying to invade at home was before I had a gun, so I took care of it with a sword, which seems to amuse a lot of people when they find out.) I might like to carry a concealed weapon for emergencies too, but I happen to work in a place where it's not allowed because their brilliant response to the possibility of someone attacking the workplace is to set us up as victims for such an intruder by rendering the innocent defenseless... and it seems like that would be really irritating, having that extra bulky chunk of metal on.

The pistol is simply the cheapest I could get at the time, an old .32" semi-automatic Mauser. Some folks at the show I got it at seemed to think it had historical value, but if so, I don't know why it was so cheap. I'd like to trade it in to someone who appreciates that kind of thing and get myself a more modern pistol with a larger caliber and more bullet capacity (8/10 instead of 6), but that would cost a chunk of money... which is also the reason why a shotgun is out of the question even for home, where it's often recommended. (That, plus any long weapon is not good for use in confined space as far as I'm concerned, and shotguns don't seem to be made with a short barrel and no stock and I can't do such customizations.)

Mister Earl
2007-Sep-24, 05:40 PM
For me? Gimmie a Mk19 :D

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-24, 08:36 PM
which is also the reason why a shotgun is out of the question even for home, where it's often recommended. (That, plus any long weapon is not good for use in confined space as far as I'm concerned, and shotguns don't seem to be made with a short barrel and no stock and I can't do such customizations.)

You can get a nice shotgun for under $300. And replacing the butt stock with a pistol grip requires the removal of maybe three screws :)

novaderrik
2007-Sep-24, 10:16 PM
when did the title of this thread get changed?

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-24, 11:50 PM
What would I buy if money were no object? Hard choice but the first thing that comes to mind would be a well-dressed model of the 1874 Sharps Buffalo Rifle from Shiloh Sharps (http://www.shilohsharps.com/).

The current stable includes:


Kimber Classic Stainless 1911 in .45 ACP...my favorite pistol and my daily carry
H&K USP Compact .45 ACP
Kahr PM9
Taurus M44, .44 Mag
Walther P22, .22 LR
Ruger Bisley Vaquero, .45 Colt, 5½", CCH...a pair of 'em
Ruger Vaquero, .45 Colt, 4⅝", CCH
Uberti repro, Winchester Model of 1866 "Yellowboy", .45 Colt
Marlin 1895 Cowboy Sporting Rifle, .45-70 Govt
Rossi "mule-earred" Coach Gun, 12 ga.
Winchester Model 70, stainless over wood, .338 Win Mag
Mossberg Maverick 88, 12 ga.

BigDon
2007-Sep-25, 05:54 PM
[homermode] 1866 yellowboy in .45 colt, mmmmm [/endhomermode]

Alright its official Brett, I'm jealous. I've only seen one operational real one. One of the advantages of working for an expensive moving company is moving the households of the truely wealthy. I often have to sign nondisclosure pacts in order to move them. Its often better than a day at the museum. Once I got to handle actual pictures drawn by the botanist on the Beagle, not "prints".

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-25, 08:41 PM
Alright its official Brett, I'm jealous. I've only seen one operational real one.

Aw, don't be too jealous. It's a modern reproduction made by Uberti (http://www.ubertireplicas.com/)...and it's not even a completely faithful replica, at that. The '66 was initially chambered for .44 Rimfire, the same cartridge used by the Henry Model of 1860. It was later offered in newer, improved calibers like .44 WCF (.44-40)...but never in .45 Colt, to the best of my knowledge.

Still, it's a pleasure to shoot (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/PetersCreek/Cowboy%20Action%20Shooting/Rifle.jpg). It came to me with silk-smooth action work already done. The only thing I've done is replace the buckhorn sight with a Marbles tang-mounted peep sight.

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-27, 03:19 PM
Ok, let’s take this to the next level. If money were no object, and you didn’t have to worry about laws against certain types of weapons such as full automatics, and there was a place nearby where you could fire that weapon whenever you wanted to, what firearm would you like to own. (and use)?

For me it would be the Barrett Model 82A1/M107 (http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifle_82.aspx) 29 inch bbl.

Sound's like you're describing Kentucky - and about a dozen other states I could mention. We have the largest civilian machinegun shoot (http://www.machinegunshoot.com/) in the nation. You can fire just about anything.

My personal fave weapon is the 120mm cannon on the M1-A1.

A more realistic answer to your question: the SR-25 rifle, the H&K Mk 23 pistol, and the Benelli Mk 4 shotgun.

Delvo
2007-Sep-27, 04:15 PM
You can get a nice shotgun for under $300.How? (And how many rounds can a shotgun hold?)


And replacing the butt stock with a pistol grip requires the removal of maybe three screws :)I'll have to look for those screws (and look for replacement grips) next time I'm looking at a shotgun.

What about a short barrel? Are "sawed-off" guns really just "sawed off", or is there more to it than that?

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-27, 05:08 PM
Walmart. Gun show.

3-10

Don't mess about with a sawed-off. Guaranteed to get you locked up. The good thing about the cheap pump shotgun is that it generally has a wooden stock. That makes it useful if someone gets inside on you. Don't forget that besides the part that goes "bang", the gun is still useful as a club (hence the word "buttstocked") to expose a perp's brain to the atmosphere. Excellent all-around attitude adjuster. Otherwise, its weight helps dampen the kick of the round going off.

A sawed-off is generally sawn off. There are short barrel kits you can buy (don't).

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 05:24 PM
How? (And how many rounds can a shotgun hold?)

I bought a Remington 870 Express "Home Defender" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_870) last year for $330 out the door with 4 boxes of shells. It's got an 18" barrel and holds 6 +1 rounds (load the magazine, chamber a round, then stick one more in the magazine).

I also had a friend that bought a Mossberg 500 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossberg_500) which he found on sale at a Big 5 Sporting Goods for $260. I believe his gun also holds around 6 +1 shells.



I'll have to look for those screws (and look for replacement grips) next time I'm looking at a shotgun.

They're really easy to find. Two of them are located on the rear recoil pad, the other is inside the stock. Just take out the two screws that hold the rear recoil pad on, then using a long screwdriver, reach through the opening at the back of the buttstock and unscrew the stock bolt. Done :)


What about a short barrel? Are "sawed-off" guns really just "sawed off", or is there more to it than that?

There are different laws in place, and I'm not sure state to state, but I believe the shortest allowable barrel for civilian use is 18" (the military use shorter barrels for ease of carrying. Shotguns are really useful to them for things like breaching doors and close quarters combat). A sawed off shotgun is literally (and illegally) sawed off, making the barrel much shorter and easier to conceal.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 05:27 PM
And one of the best things about a nice pump-action shotgun is that, when you chamber a round, you're speaking 58 languages...and in every one of them you're telling the guy in your house "It's time for you to leave."

AndreH
2007-Sep-27, 05:41 PM
One of the beauties of the US is we can decide not to participate in the gun culture thing. Ask Soylentgreen, he doesn't like guns. And I will defend his right not to have one. We're both Americans after all. Though sadly, I feel he would disarm me in a heartbeat if he could. Oh well.

In your case the decision was made for you, by people who feel they know better than you what you can be trusted with. That doesn't bother you?

BigDon: with guns it is like with other things. The gun control laws in most European countries are there because the majority of the people of this countries want it that way. I know what I am talking about. I live in Germany, and I am into sport shooting. I am allowed to own a certain number of hand guns if I want to, and an unlimited number of (NOT SEMI AUTOMATIC) rifles. But I am not allowed to carry these outside my home or outside the range.
In our local gun club there are lots of Smith & Wessons revolvers, Berettas 9 mm and so on. I practice every week or so. For me it is pretty normal to handle guns and ammo.

If I start to talk about this for example on a friends birthday party or in public people start staring at me. Start making remarks about that no one should own such dangerous things. Some women (typically elementary school techers or so) will even start refering to Freud and penis length.

No, people over here definetly do not want guns in private households.

My favourit for Sport Shooting is a .22 Walther GSP. For the heavy Duty stuff any .45 ACP will do (standard Ammo is subsonic, the only big bore I would dare to fire in a room without wearing ear protection). My brothers Peter Stahl is a fine thing.

Delvo
2007-Sep-27, 06:12 PM
And one of the best things about a nice pump-action shotgun is that, when you chamber a round, you're speaking 58 languages...and in every one of them you're telling the guy in your house "It's time for you to leave."I keep hearing shotgun fans say that, but accepting it as an argument against a pistol requires pretending that the sound of the slide being pulled back to draw a bullet into the firing chamber doesn't "say" the same thing.

Delvo
2007-Sep-27, 06:24 PM
Don't mess about with a sawed-off... Don't forget that besides the part that goes "bang", the gun is still useful as a club... its weight helps dampen the kick of the round going off... There are short barrel kits you can buy (don't).This kind of stuff is one of the reasons why I've kept a pistol so far instead of a shotgun. I'm told that it's best to keep the barrel and the grip/stock both long. OK, then that makes them pretty maladapted for indoor use. I know that smaller size is better for rooms and hallways; OK, then that means we're talking about something that isn't a shotgun or rifle unless shortened somehow.

I collect bladed weapons for a reason that's unrelated to my reason for having a gun: I just like them. But I also know something about how to use them, and have had to do so before. If picking one for real use in a pre-gun world, I won't argue against a spear's usefulness for open battle, but if I'm at home, it's time to go for something much shorter instead, even shorter than most swords (more like a Celtic leaf-blade or gladius hispaniensis).

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 06:31 PM
I keep hearing shotgun fans say that, but accepting it as an argument against a pistol requires pretending that the sound of the slide being pulled back to draw a bullet into the firing chamber doesn't "say" the same thing.

As an owner of both, I can say the shotgun is more intimidating. It's louder, and it instantly reminds the bad guy what a shotgun is capable of. When I bought the shotgun I practiced "clearing" the house and found that I had full mobility through the entire house.

But keep in mind the sound isn't the only advantage. A shotgun doesn't require perfect aim, which can be most difficult in an emergency situation, and, while you're going to put a bigger hole in your own wall, you're not going to put holes in your neighbor's wall. :)

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 06:40 PM
This kind of stuff is one of the reasons why I've kept a pistol so far instead of a shotgun. I'm told that it's best to keep the barrel and the grip/stock both long.

Well that depends. You have to keep them long enough not to break the law, but you don't have to keep a 22 or 24 inch barrel unless you plan on hunting. And while a buttstock is useful, it's certainly not required. You can also buy a folding buttstock for the ability to choose.


OK, then that makes them pretty maladapted for indoor use. I know that smaller size is better for rooms and hallways; OK, then that means we're talking about something that isn't a shotgun or rifle unless shortened somehow.

I don't know the layout of your house, but with the "home defender" version of my shotgun I can turn 360 degrees in my hallway without dropping the gun from a ready-to-fire position. So yea, a hunting rifle or shotgun might not be the best, but a shotgun designed for home protection works fine.

I'm not trying to talk you into buying a shotgun, if you don't want one, stick with what you like. :) But if I had to get rid of all but 1 gun, I would stick with the shotgun as it's more likely to save my life in a home invasion.

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-27, 06:52 PM
Delvo -

I concur with your blade assessment. The analogy is apt as well. However, it's not exactly the same.

I've done a lot of what we used to call CQB training. Its basically armed combat inside buildings. The long barrel issue is not as significant as you might think. The shotgun is the undisputed king of CQB. Notice I did not say the short-bbl or sawed-off. The shotgun takes a lot less training, is more forgiving, and provides you with an instant back-up weapon. In the right hands a good, big pistol is almost as good. The pistol is harder to use accurately, but a trained user can do other things (shoot past a hostage) with the pistol that you'd never try with a shotgun. OTOH, a missed pistol round may shoot through walls and have unintended consequences the shotgun generally does not.

You can short-stock the shotgun as you maneuver doorways/halls (basically laying the stock over your shoulder so that your trigger hand is near your ear) which does away with the long barrel problem, but retains the eye-muzzle-target alignment you hopefully have going in.

Kelfazin points out a Hollywood fave. My thoughts: if you're cocking your weapon in sight of your enemy, its too late. A professional or even the motivated intruder is going to enter with a loaded weapon, and have the drop on you. You cocking the weapon only does two things - let them know where you are, and let them know you're afraid of your weapon.

If you need to pull a firearm on an intruder inside your home, you'd better hope the weapon is already loaded and armed.

As part of your training for the unlikely event of a home invasion, you should also know your state's laws on the use of deadly force in self-defense. You need to know if your laws will exhonerate a person's use of deadly force in the home. Most states, btw, do not allow the use of deadly force in defense of property (thus, don't go blazing away at the guys stealing your weed-eater from the shed in your back-yard).

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-27, 07:27 PM
A shotgun doesn't require perfect aim, which can be most difficult in an emergency situation...

Mild disagreement from me on this point...if only to clarify the concept of "perfect aim." I don't think the shot pattern from most HD shotguns at household encounter ranges is going to be wide enough to make aiming significantly less critical than for pistols or rifles.

In the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting, shotgun targets typically placed at 8-to-16 yards are still easily missed in the heat of friendly competition. Halve those distances in the home and a shot pattern may well strike a threat as a very concentrated mass (depending on choke)...if it strikes the target. A miss is a miss, whether it's .45, .223, or 00 buck.

On the other hand, receiving a 12 gauge load of double-aught is like getting hit with 12-to-15 .32 caliber slugs. In that case, imperfect aim of a couple of inches one way or the other may not make a great deal of difference as long as it's pointed in the right direction to begin with.

Regarding the preference for a pistol or a shotgun...I'm mindful of a few maxims. A handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your rifle. The best gun to use in a fight is the one you have with you. If the two were side-by-side, I'd likely pick the shotgun. Chances are, though, that the pistol will be more readily at hand.

And a couple more for pithy sayings, just 'cause...

A slow hit beats a fast miss every time.
Take your time in a hurry. (Wyatt Earp, on how to win a gun fight)

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-27, 07:50 PM
Pith is great.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 07:50 PM
Kelfazin points out a Hollywood fave. My thoughts: if you're cocking your weapon in sight of your enemy, its too late. A professional or even the motivated intruder is going to enter with a loaded weapon, and have the drop on you. You cocking the weapon only does two things - let them know where you are, and let them know you're afraid of your weapon.

I'm a little confused by this, do you mean it tells the bad guy I'm afraid of my own weapon? I don't understand that. I keep the shotgun next to my bed loaded, but not chambered. Racking a shell doesn't mean I'm afraid of it, it means I'm going to use it. My goal isn't to hide and then shoot the guy in my house when he least expects it, it's to get him OUT of my house so me and my family are out of danger. I assume that he already knows where I am, he may as well know I'm armed.


Mild disagreement from me on this point...if only to clarify the concept of "perfect aim." I don't think the shot pattern from most HD shotguns at household encounter ranges is going to be wide enough to make aiming significantly less critical than for pistols or rifles.

You certainly have more experience with guns than I do. :) All I know is I've been taught most in-home gunfights take place at about 20 feet (no stats to back me up on this, just going by what my uncle, a firearms dealer, told me). When I go to the range and put a target at 20 feet I get a spread of about 8-10 inches (can't recall the shells I use for sure, but I think it's 1/8" shot). The 870 Express HD isn't threaded for a choke tube so it's just the straight barrel. As a non-competition shooter my experience tells me that as long as I aim pretty close to the bad guy I'll catch him with something. The stairs that lead to the bedrooms in my house are walled in on both sides, he'll have no maneuvering room to get out of the way of the shot, all I have to do is either keep him pinned downstairs until the cops get there, get him out of my house all together, or kill him while he's climbing the stairs.

Delvo
2007-Sep-27, 08:14 PM
OK, a couple of shotgun questions...

1. How's the noise compared to pistols? Louder but lower?

2. Is the default that they're all NOT aemi-automatic and getting one that is would mean big bucks?

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-27, 10:45 PM
When I go to the range and put a target at 20 feet I get a spread of about 8-10 inches (can't recall the shells I use for sure, but I think it's 1/8" shot).

Empirical data is a good thing! But 1/8" shot sounds like #4 or #5...basically a waterfowl load, which wouldn't be my first choice...but that's me. Now, #4 buck would be a better optionIMO because the pellets are about twice the diameter of #4 bird. If you intend to use something different for HD, I'd pattern that, too.

Regarding racking the slide of a shotgun as a deterrent, I tend to agree that it's not the best idea. I keep a snap cap in the chamber of my HDS and will cycle the action as quietly as I can in order not to telegraph my presence/position.

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 10:58 PM
OK, a couple of shotgun questions...

1. How's the noise compared to pistols? Louder but lower?

They're loud, but the report isn't a sharp "crack" like a pistol. It's more of a "whump". And yea, lower in pitch.


2. Is the default that they're all NOT aemi-automatic and getting one that is would mean big bucks?

Pump action and breech loading are the most common. Semi-auto's are significantly more expensive (most are probably in the $1,000 range)

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-27, 11:08 PM
Empirical data is a good thing! But 1/8" shot sounds like #4 or #5...basically a waterfowl load, which wouldn't be my first choice...but that's me. Now, #4 buck would be a better optionIMO because the pellets are about twice the diameter of #4 bird. If you intend to use something different for HD, I'd pattern that, too.

I tracked down what I use. It's Estate Cartridge Super Sport Competition Target Load

Bore: 12
Length: 2 3/4
Dram equivalant: 3
Velocity (feet per sec): 1,200
Ounces: 1 1/8 (<---that's where I got the 1/8 from heh)
Grams: 32
Hardness: Extra Hard
Shot Size: 8

Frantic Freddie
2007-Sep-27, 11:55 PM
They're loud, but the report isn't a sharp "crack" like a pistol. It's more of a "whump". And yea, lower in pitch.



Pump action and breech loading are the most common. Semi-auto's are significantly more expensive (most are probably in the $1,000 range)

The "crack" only happens with rounds that exceed the speed of sound,i.e. 9mm,.357...

A good used Remington 1100 (no longer made,superseded by the 1187) can be had for as little as $300.

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-28, 03:00 AM
Shot Size: 8

At a nominal diameter of .090", that's good for lil' birds. At close ranges, it's still 1⅛ ounces of lead (ouch!) but I think bigger would be better for the intended purpose. :whistle:

Tog
2007-Sep-28, 06:49 AM
My personal preference for a home defense would be a non-pistol grip version. If it should change from a ranged fight to a melee, the advantage of the hand position on a standard stock over that of a pistol grip is huge. It's also easier for a person to twist a pistol grip weapon out of your hand if they manage to get that close. This is hard to explain in text, but basically, it has to do with the grip angle compared to the rotation angle, and the distance from the rotation axis to the thumb.

When we used to do Bowling pin shoots, shotguns were allowed in the unlimited class. The game was to place 5 bowling pins on a sheet of 4 by 8 plywood at a range of 7.5 yards. First person to clear all 5 pins from the table wins. Shotguns still took 5 rounds. The pattern spread was not enough to hit two pins well enough to clear them. Shotguns were still faster than sub-machineguns, which were faster than handguns. A "good" handgun time was under 5 seconds, with around 3 being needed to win. Shotguns could get down close to 2 seconds.

Federal laws on the length of shotguns and rifles. State laws may be more restrictive. From near the bottom of this page (http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federalfirearmslaws.htm):

E. PROHIBITED FIREARMS & AMMO
1. National Firearms Act – A person who intends to make, receive or possess any of the following NFA firearms must first pay a tax and have the firearm registered with the Federal government (ATF): 26 U.S.C. §§ 5801- 5872, 10 years for each violation.
Sawed-Off Shotgun, barrel length less than 18 inches or overall length less than 26 inches, § 5845
Sawed-Off Rifle, barrel length less than 16 inches or overall length less than 26 inches, § 5845
Silencer, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(C)
Destructive device, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), (a)(4); 26 U.S.C. § 5845
Machine Gun, § 5845
(Since 1986 a person may not legally make a machine gun for himself but may legally acquire one already registered with ATF: § 922(o), 10 years).
“Any other Weapon”, weapon capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged via an explosive (e.g., ring gun, club gun, belt buckle gun, handlebar gun, pen gun) etc., § 5845

Kelfazin
2007-Sep-28, 07:05 AM
At a nominal diameter of .090", that's good for lil' birds. At close ranges, it's still 1⅛ ounces of lead (ouch!) but I think bigger would be better for the intended purpose. :whistle:

Or actually 7 7/8 ounces because as soon as I pull the trigger once, I'm pulling it 6 more times :)

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-28, 02:01 PM
Kelfazin - the loaded weapon sans one in the chamber is what we called "Condition 3." With a round in the chamber we called it "Condition 1." There are advantages and disadvantages to keeping a weapon in either condition. What I cautioned against was trying to rely on the sound as a weapon - i.e. using the satisfying sound of cocking a shotgun or racking the slide as a deterrent to an intruder. I think that is a bad idea. My point is that outside of a movie, any armed intruder entering your home with ill intent will have their weapon in Condition 1, and hearing someone else ready their weapon really just says to them, "Here I am". If you're relying upon sound suppression, but in your excitement/disorientation upon waking, forget to rack the slide/cock the gun - someone may find you later with an odd look on your face.

I keep my personal defense weapons in Condition 1.

Delvo - you may know this, but others may not...

FOUR SAFETY RULES:


Treat every weapon as if it were loaded;
Never point your weapon at anything you are not willing to shoot;
Keep you weapon on safe until you are ready to fire;
Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.

The only time someone's been hurt by a negligent discharge, someone violated one of the above rules.

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-28, 03:41 PM
The four safety rules I grew up with and practice:

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to fire.
4. Be sure of your target and what lies beyond.

I leave out DW's #3 simply because it's not universal. It's a good rule that I practice whenever my firearm has an external safety but many are not so equipped. Seven of mine aren't.

Tog
2007-Sep-28, 04:11 PM
The four safety rules I grew up with and practice:

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Don't point your weapon at anything you're not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off of the trigger until ready to fire.
4. Be sure of your target and what lies beyond.

I leave out DW's #3 simply because it's not universal. It's a good rule that I practice whenever my firearm has an external safety but many are not so equipped. Seven of mine aren't.

Mine were the same with the addition of a fifth, though it sort of ties in with the others.

5. No safety can really be trusted.

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-28, 05:45 PM
Thanks Brett - your last is one of the universal rules of safe weapons handling that I've always stressed (but which were not included in the USMC's Four Safety Rules).

Too many people forget that bullets don't stop even when they reach their intended target, much less miss the mark.

Delvo
2007-Sep-28, 06:34 PM
You can get a nice shotgun for under $300.
How?
Walmart.I've checked their website. It shows only the extremely high prices I've alway seen before. Do they keep the good prices only in the stores and hide them from the internet?

DyerWolf
2007-Sep-28, 07:03 PM
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/catalog.gsp?cat=420390

Delvo
2007-Sep-28, 07:17 PM
Wow, how did you find that page? I couldn't find any gun pages there at all at first because "guns" didn't show up in the category lists, although related things like "ammo" and "gun accessories" did.

OK, some of those options seem viable, once I can figure out what kind of ammo I'd want to use... but just a quick glance gives me a couple more questions:
1. Why is there such a vast difference in price? What do you get for the higher price that you don't for the lower one?
2. What does "youth" mean as a description for shotguns? Just smaller size, smaller/lighter ammo, and weaker kick?

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-28, 09:02 PM
1. Why is there such a vast difference in price? What do you get for the higher price that you don't for the lower one?Like any other consumer product, firearms come in at many different price points for a number of reasons...materials, design, features, performance, fit & finish, balance, after-market support, and even name/brand reputation and recognition. My suggestion would be that you not start with a caliber or type ammunition. Decide first what the intended purpose is, then define the attributes that would satisfy that.



2. What does "youth" mean as a description for shotguns? Just smaller size, smaller/lighter ammo, and weaker kick? Basically, youth models are scaled for younger shooters. It isn't just a matter of overall size or weight but also includes the geometries necessary to get a young shooter into the correct firing position. Caliber/gauge is often but not always lighter than adult models.

Frantic Freddie
2007-Sep-29, 12:52 AM
Basically, youth models are scaled for younger shooters. It isn't just a matter of overall size or weight but also includes the geometries necessary to get a young shooter into the correct firing position. Caliber/gauge is often but not always lighter than adult models.

But you'll notice that the Remington Youth shotguns are 20 ga,which is a lower-recoil round that delivers almost the same punch as a 12.

I recently joined the Single Action Shooting Society (http://www.sassnet.com/),I haven't started to compete yet,my Winchester 94 is a 30-30,too powerful for competition,but I have acquired an Uberti 1873 Cattleman ( http://www.uberti.com/firearms/large/cattlemanBrassNM55.jpg) in the venerable Colt .45.All I need now is another handgun,a side by side shotgun & a lever action chambered in Colt .45.

When I joined my wife said "You just joined so you could buy more guns!"
I answered "And your point is...?" :lol:

If you look at the SASS link you'll see End of Trail,their big to-do in June at the Founder's Ranch,which is just 1.5 miles due south of my house.

Delvo
2007-Sep-29, 01:34 AM
Like any other consumer product, firearms come in at many different price points for a number of reasons...materials, design, features, performance, fit & finish, balance, after-market support, and even name/brand reputation and recognition....which is why I brought it up for the low Wal-Mart prices. If I get one of those, what's going to be wrong with it, from the perspective of someone who spends more on a different one?


My suggestion would be that you not start with a caliber or type ammunition. Decide first what the intended purpose is, then define the attributes that would satisfy that.I guess you haven't noticed my prior posts or haven't noticed that I'm who made them. Home defense against humans is the only reason I could have for a shotgun. That much is already established background; the question is what it tells us about ammo size & type.

Delvo
2007-Sep-29, 01:36 AM
But you'll notice that the Remington Youth shotguns are 20 ga,which is a lower-recoil round that delivers almost the same punch as a 12.How can different amounts of recoil come from guns with the same "punch", if "punch" means impact at the target?

Frantic Freddie
2007-Sep-29, 03:21 AM
How can different amounts of recoil come from guns with the same "punch", if "punch" means impact at the target?

"Almost"

It's not the guns,but what they're loaded with that makes the difference.In my 870 Express Magnum, the standard cheap 2.75" #7 1/2 is easy to shoot all day,but the 3.5" #4/6 shot turkey load will rattle your teeth out.

The 20 ga is smaller than the 12 ga,not as big a shot load,but delivers it at the same velocity,smaller load=less recoil.

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-29, 03:48 AM
...which is why I brought it up for the low Wal-Mart prices. If I get one of those, what's going to be wrong with it, from the perspective of someone who spends more on a different one?

My point is, what's "wrong" with it very much depends upon what you need or want from it. I purchased my HDS for $180...and there's nothing wrong with it as far it fills its purpose. The fit and finish isn't as tight or as slick as a more expensive model. So what. It operates easily and reliably. It isn't as "purty" as others. Who cares? It'll probably be dark when I really have to use it. I don't think it'd fare well getting tossed out of a moving truck. Big deal. I don't make a habit of driving down the hallway. But I can find my target with it and it goes bang every single time I pull the trigger. If it didn't, it'd have no place in my home.

Here's a suggestion. Go to an honest-to-gawd, reputable gun store and look at the model(s), then buy the one of your choice at Walmart, if you like. Touch 'em, feel 'em, and ask questions about 'em. You're more likely to get knowledgeable answers at the gun store. You'll also be able to check the action more easily at a gun store. Last time I looked at a firearm in Walmart, they wouldn't remove the trigger lock, citing liability concerns. Me, I won't buy a weapon if I can't test action and operation...not even at Walmart's low prices. YMMV.

PetersCreek
2007-Sep-29, 03:56 AM
How can different amounts of recoil come from guns with the same "punch", if "punch" means impact at the target?

There are several factors that affect perceived recoil. On the firearm side, there are things such as total firearm weight, stock geometry, choke, forcing cone dimensions, recoil padding, and other recoil management features. In ammunition, it's basically a question of projectile weight, powder load, and powder type.

jybryce
2007-Sep-29, 06:08 AM
Oh, I don't know. I think I would choose an AK-47 machine gun. :confused:Well, what is your favorite?:question: I don't know if talk of guns is aloud so I'll have to check in the policy.