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View Full Version : Woman kicked-out of bar because she was too fat



banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Aug-27, 01:27 PM
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=77dc6443-ed20-44ee-8e79-98eed3a82acf&k=2727

GRRR....

this must not stand

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-27, 02:03 PM
Have never seen that happen in the US, but then am not a big bar-crawler.

Doodler
2007-Aug-27, 02:04 PM
I believe that falls under the category of "what else is new?".

Doodler
2007-Aug-27, 02:07 PM
Have never seen that happen in the US, but then am not a big bar-crawler.

Oh, it happens. Hehe, oh yes, its quite common at the hotter nightclubs looking to create a certain atmosphere. Most won't do what this club did, because the odds are, you just won't get in at first. They don't explicitly tell you to leave because you're not attractive, they'll just leave you in the line outside all night.

Like I said, nothing new here.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-27, 04:35 PM
Oh, it happens. Hehe, oh yes, its quite common at the hotter nightclubs looking to create a certain atmosphere. Most won't do what this club did, because the odds are, you just won't get in at first. They don't explicitly tell you to leave because you're not attractive, they'll just leave you in the line outside all night.

Like I said, nothing new here.

Ugh! Wow...didn't know that.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-27, 04:42 PM
It makes sense. A Nightspot is going to want to have a reputation of having the best looking people in it.

Peter Wilson
2007-Aug-27, 06:49 PM
Remember, this took place in Canada. What the article "forgot" to mention is that the woman also is not a hooker, nor can she play hockey :shifty:

Fazor
2007-Aug-27, 07:09 PM
Remember, this took place in Canada. What the article "forgot" to mention is that the woman also is not a hooker, nor can she play hockey :shifty:

Lol. But is she overweight because of the abundance of maple syrup?

Anyway, I feel bad for the woman, and I think it's a crummy thing to do, but it comes down to the fact that it's a privately owned club. If I had my own establishment, I should be allowed to say who I want and don't want in it. Of course, I also think as the owner I would be responsable for dealing with the repurcussions of said decisions.

Besides; They say they want to "preserve their image" but I have a problem with other people telling me what beauty is. I know a lot of women who are overweight but gorgous. And I know a lot of celebrities who are thin, but I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Stop telling me what I like and dislike! >:(

Zachary
2007-Aug-27, 07:11 PM
A man walks into a bar...but was thrown out again because he was too fat, thus ruining a predictable and banal punchline.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-27, 07:13 PM
Lol. But is she overweight because of the abundance of maple syrup?

Anyway, I feel bad for the woman, and I think it's a crummy thing to do, but it comes down to the fact that it's a privately owned club. If I had my own establishment, I should be allowed to say who I want and don't want in it. Of course, I also think as the owner I would be responsable for dealing with the repurcussions of said decisions.

Besides; They say they want to "preserve their image" but I have a problem with other people telling me what beauty is. I know a lot of women who are overweight but gorgous. And I know a lot of celebrities who are thin, but I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Stop telling me what I like and dislike! >:(

Completely agree.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-27, 08:24 PM
Here's a question: would they throw out a girl who is too thin??

There is this poor girl at my gym who is completely bulimarexic--she is emaciated, but her cheeks are so swollen she looks like a chipmunk.

She looks like she has cancer (I don't think she does--and certainly hope she doesn't!) or was recently let out of a concentration camp. Would they let her in?

Probably.

A male friend of ours weighs 300 lbs if he's an ounce, and he's no taller than my husband (5'10"). Would they let him in??

Probably. Definitely!

If standards for looks are to be applied as a criterion for admission to a bar or club, these standards should be applied equally to both sexes or not at all, IMHO.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-27, 08:31 PM
Why not simply let everyone decide for yourself who's pretty or not, that way everyone can pick out his or her pretty one at the bar. Never mind your weight or looks, there's always someone who finds you attractive when you just look happy and healthy.

I don't think too thin girls look healthy, I don't find them attractive at all. We've discussed this before on BAUT. I know very little men who like really thin. Most desire a basic amount of flesh (no, not only there), so don't worry if you have it. Stay healthy, stay yourself. Doodler had a nice reference on "what many men want" and you won't find the really thin girls there. Agreed, also not the ones with a serious amount of overweight, but I know from reality that there are also very pretty women who could use a few kilos less according to their BMI.

That said, it's a private club so they do what they want indeed, and face the consequences.

Fazor
2007-Aug-27, 08:39 PM
That said, it's a private club so they do what they want indeed, and face the consequences.
And again, there's the key. It's the same thing I have to say about that whole Imus thing a month or two back. (time flies). I know it seems tangent, but same type deal. One just physically discriminated, the other orally did. But both within thier rights. Thats fine, but deal with the consequences.

Tobin Dax
2007-Aug-27, 10:08 PM
A man walks into a bar...but was thrown out again because he was too fat, thus ruining a predictable and banal punchline.
Depending on where the bar is, I'll probably bounce if I walk into it.

Delvo
2007-Aug-27, 10:14 PM
I know a lot of women who are overweight but gorgous. And I know a lot of celebrities who are thin, but I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.The first door-guy (possibly the only one, just following orders later on, or possibly a different one) did let her in. I've always wondered what clubs like this would do about disagreements in tastes among the different employees who make these decisions. Apparently this is an example.

Delvo
2007-Aug-27, 10:17 PM
A male friend of ours weighs 300 lbs if he's an ounce, and he's no taller than my husband (5'10"). Would they let him in??

Probably. Definitely!No, not a chance at all. It works the same for both sexes, of course. (If the guys at the doors aren't bisexual, then they just have to guess what others would think.)

Delvo
2007-Aug-27, 10:19 PM
Why not simply let everyone decide for yourself who's pretty or not, that way everyone can pick out his or her pretty one at the bar.That can only work at a place that few enough people want to get into. If more people want in than the place can hold, then that's when the filtering starts.

mike alexander
2007-Aug-27, 10:22 PM
“Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”

Nicolas
2007-Aug-27, 10:30 PM
That can only work at a place that few enough people want to get into. If more people want in than the place can hold, then that's when the filtering starts.

If the filtering is simply by the time of arrival like in, say, a parking lot, then there's not such problem.

Peter Wilson
2007-Aug-27, 10:38 PM
Depending on where the bar is, I'll probably bounce if I walk into it.The bar was in Canada...

Peter Wilson
2007-Aug-27, 10:59 PM
Seriously, I've never been overweight, but been "kicked out of bars" for other prejudices.

Had this discusssion with my daughter a while back, regarding recent smoking-prohibitions:

"I want to be able to go into a bar and smoke as well as drink."
"I want to be able to go into a bar and drink without inhaling somebody eles's smoke."
"Well, the bar owner wants to serve people like me. As a business man, shouldn't that be his right, to decide who to serve?"
"Well, I want to be able to go into a bar and drink without inhaling 2nd hand smoke. Shouldn't that be my right?"
"But you can go to a bar where the owner doesn't allow smoking; you already have that right!"
"But no bar will ban smoking unless that law bans smoking at all of them. The majority of people don't smoke, and in democracy, the majority rules. Most poeple don't want smoke in bars, so that's what we get..."

Another conflict of interests unresolved to the minority's satisfaction :sad:

Doodler
2007-Aug-28, 12:37 AM
Seriously, I've never been overweight, but been "kicked out of bars" for other prejudices.

Had this discusssion with my daughter a while back, regarding recent smoking-prohibitions:

"I want to be able to go into a bar and smoke as well as drink."
"I want to be able to go into a bar and drink without inhaling somebody eles's smoke."
"Well, the bar owner wants to serve people like me. As a business man, shouldn't that be his right, to decide who to serve?"
"Well, I want to be able to go into a bar and drink without inhaling 2nd hand smoke. Shouldn't that be my right?"
"But you can go to a bar where the owner doesn't allow smoking; you already have that right!"
"But no bar will ban smoking unless that law bans smoking at all of them. The majority of people don't smoke, and in democracy, the majority rules. Most poeple don't want smoke in bars, so that's what we get..."

Another conflict of interests unresolved to the minority's satisfaction :sad:

Smoking in a bar around people is like drink and driving. The evidence is in and your habit kills people around you by inches. Much like drunk driving, you can never tell exactly who its going to be that you kill, but eventually, it will be someone.

lti
2007-Aug-28, 12:47 AM
It does seem that discriminating against people because they are blatantly unhealthy (smokers, fat) cant be a bad thing.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 12:47 AM
Right.

Whirlpool
2007-Aug-28, 02:49 AM
They should post in the first place in that bar "No Overweight People are Allowed Inside" to avoid such incident.

:think:

Tobin Dax
2007-Aug-28, 03:00 AM
It does seem that discriminating against people because they are blatantly unhealthy (smokers, fat) cant be a bad thing.
And just how does my being fat hurt you? I'm not emitting something that will decrease your health because I'm overweight. Smokers are exposing me to smoke, which can negatively affect my health. My sitting there eating a burger doesn't affect your health.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 03:20 AM
And just how does my being fat hurt you? I'm not emitting something that will decrease your health because I'm overweight. Smokers are exposing me to smoke, which can negatively affect my health. My sitting there eating a burger doesn't affect your health.

Your health may not affect US.
Though we might miss you when you're gone:p

But it does affect you, and your family.

Encouraging people to lose weight by either a positive or a negative means, isn't really a bad thing.

Besides. I'm fat too.
Im 4'3 and weigh 390.

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-28, 03:58 AM
Lol. But is she overweight because of the abundance of maple syrup? I think it is a safe bet that she is overweight because of eating too much food. With the exception of a few rather rare medical conditions, every overweight person does it to themselves.


……….. it comes down to the fact that it's a privately owned club. If I had my own establishment, I should be allowed to say who I want and don't want in it. I agree. That is the point of having your own business, to run it the way you want. It is also your privilege as the person paying all the bills and putting up with the hassle of owning a business.


Besides; They say they want to "preserve their image" but I have a problem with other people telling me what beauty is. Everyone has an opinion, and they often express it. I figured out what beauty really is over 25 years ago. 10 years later, a group of scientists using computers and spending about 5 million dollars finally agreed with me. But I was first.


Stop telling me what I like and dislike! >:(No one is telling you what you like, the club is illustrating what they like. Their decision is probably based upon what experience has shown them the majority of their regular patrons prefer. A club is a business. They make money by selling drinks. To do that, they must attract customers. They may use popular bands, hot DJ’s, extravagant decorations, or topless waitresses. Whatever works. The difference between a popular club, and a similar club that is not popular can be quite small.

novaderrik
2007-Aug-28, 04:06 AM
there used to be a sign at the entrance of a nudie bar in Minneapolis that said "1000 beautiful women, and 1 ugly one"..
maybe this bar had a similar policy regarding overweight females, and there was already a large woman inside the bar. it was, after all, in Canada...

Whirlpool
2007-Aug-28, 04:07 AM
Hmm.:think:

Yes , a club is a business entity , whether it's a private one or a public.

But what is it's main purpose? To serve customers of what they offer, with a Club/Night -Club /Bar , liquor and cigarettes are inlcuded. So that means , any customer who is in that place who asks for that stuff is entitled to receive good service from the waiters/servers.

If they don't want to serve Fat People , they should have made clear to the public that they will NOT entertain such people.

But if they didn't , then they shouldn't do that .

:neutral:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 04:13 AM
I repeat...
Nightclubs like a reputation.
The best drinks.
The best music.
The best looking people.

It isn't the night clubs fault that woman ate too many twinkies.

They were rude to discriminate against her. But shes not dating the night club nor is she employed by the nightclub.
They have the right to try to keep their patrons exclusive to the better looking.

They shouldn't have any restrictions that say they need to "post a sign". If they did that a bunch of whiney pants would make so much fuss...

Whirlpool
2007-Aug-28, 04:20 AM
Does that mean that these Fat People have no right to enter such "Nightclubs"?

Hmm..

Maybe if those clubs have membership , they should include in their requirements " Limited weight is below 200 lbs".

:think:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 04:29 AM
Does that mean that these Fat People have no right to enter such "Nightclubs"?

Hmm..

Maybe if those clubs have membership , they should include in their requirements " Limited weight is below 200 lbs".

:think:

<chuckle>

Well, they have a right to try and most nightclubs will let them in. Simply put, some guys LIKE big women.

This article never says for sure that her weight was the issue. Only that she thought it was based on the "lose weight" comment.

There may have been a totally different reason for her bar of re-entry- considering she had already gotten in
including her behavior.
The bouncer may have just made an off hand comment based on his own opinion.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-28, 04:46 AM
“Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.”"Ya bounced her, ya can bounce me. Bounce!"

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6065/3meterbouncehw9.th.jpg (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3meterbouncehw9.jpg)


As to why the woman was kicked out, perhaps she was carrying too much back bacon, eh?

The Backroad Astronomer
2007-Aug-28, 04:55 AM
"Ya bounced her, ya can bounce me. Bounce!"

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6065/3meterbouncehw9.th.jpg (http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3meterbouncehw9.jpg)


As to why the woman was kicked out, perhaps she was carrying too much back bacon, eh?
What is it you americans and the bacon.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-28, 06:41 AM
<chuckle>

Well, they have a right to try and most nightclubs will let them in. Simply put, some guys LIKE big women.

This article never says for sure that her weight was the issue. Only that she thought it was based on the "lose weight" comment.

There may have been a totally different reason for her bar of re-entry- considering she had already gotten in
including her behavior.
The bouncer may have just made an off hand comment based on his own opinion.

That is what I'm wondering. Also, some clubs don't allow people to just run in and out without paying the cover charge again. I'm wondering if the bouncer just got PO'ed at her and made a nasty remark which had nothing to do with her not being able to get back in.

Doodler
2007-Aug-28, 01:00 PM
Does that mean that these Fat People have no right to enter such "Nightclubs"?

Hmm..

Maybe if those clubs have membership , they should include in their requirements " Limited weight is below 120 lbs".

:think:

Pardon my editing a quote, but that's closer to their reality.

Whirlpool
2007-Aug-28, 01:03 PM
Really Doodler . :think:

120 lbs is ...somewhat ....way out of XXL sizes .


:p

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 01:04 PM
Doodler, you weighed 120lbs in 3rd grade.

Doodler
2007-Aug-28, 01:19 PM
Doodler, you weighed 120lbs in 3rd grade.

84 actually. Capped 200 when I was 13, ended up around 255 when I was 15 (extended hospital stay, stuck indoors, psychoactive meds...bloated badly). Currently at 33 I'm sitting a few pounds shy of 300.

Whirlpool
2007-Aug-28, 01:23 PM
84 actually. Capped 200 when I was 13, ended up around 255 when I was 15 (extended hospital stay, stuck indoors, psychoactive meds...bloated badly). Currently at 33 I'm sitting a few pounds shy of 300.

Ohhh..

that means...

You can't enter a Nightclub.


:p

Doodler
2007-Aug-28, 02:12 PM
Ohhh..

that means...

You can't enter a Nightclub.


:p

I've actually been to several in the DC area (not all of them are so prejudicial). Was never into the scene. Not that I don't like house music, but bass pumped to white noise levels while standing in a sea of pretentiousness actually bored me to tears.

The only clubs I deal with these days involve nudity or live music. Both of which are happy to have you so long as you pay the cover charge.

Palomar
2007-Aug-28, 02:29 PM
Wow. :eek: Skinny Nazis gone rabid.

Western society is so mental about weight. Junkies are given clean needles [enabling their addictions], alcoholics are given all sorts of emotional support [which is okay if they're serious about sobriety; otherwise it's simply enabling], etc.

But be overweight, especially if you're female? Nope, that's an unpardonable offense. :rolleyes: How dare any woman not measure up (or down) to society's standards of their "worth."

And this lady recently lost weight. Talk about a slap in the face. Guess she'd better keep eating only lettuce, drinking water and puking until she's "acceptable" by society's standards...sheesh. :thumbs down:

Moose
2007-Aug-28, 02:36 PM
I didn't comment in this thread before now because my temper was fully engaged. I'm still fuming. This happened in Halifax, my home town. :mad: It's infuriating that this sort of bigotry is not only possible, but apparently tolerated.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 02:37 PM
Wow. :eek: Skinny Nazis gone rabid.

Western society is so mental about weight. Junkies are given clean needles [enabling their addictions], alcoholics are given all sorts of emotional support [which is okay if they're serious about sobriety; otherwise it's simply enabling], etc.

But be overweight, especially if you're female? Nope, that's an unpardonable offense. :rolleyes: How dare any woman not measure up (or down) to society's standards of their "worth."

And this lady recently lost weight. Talk about a slap in the face. Guess she'd better keep eating only lettuce, drinking water and puking until she's "acceptable" by society's standards...sheesh. :thumbs down:

Thumbs down is right.

She had just lost weight because she knew she was overweight. She didnt get that way from eating only lettuce or by puking.

WESTERN SOCIETY?
The US is overweight in general. As to the addict comments- COME ON! Some people enable and coddle them, some dog them.
Women are just as picky about weight and how a man appears too.

Your post is fraught with stereotypes and assumptions.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 02:40 PM
And I'll say it again- This whiney fat woman ASSUMED that her weight was the issue.
For all we know- she was overly drunk and was behaving very badly in the club.
The bouncer made a remark about her weight. So what? That doesn't mean that her weight is why the OWNER wanted her out.

Her weight didnt stop her from getting in in the first place.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-28, 02:41 PM
They'll have age limits next. I can see it now: No Cougars Allowed.

I feel weird enough going into clubs at my age anyway. I'm below the 'weight limit', but everybody in there is about 15 years younger than I am. I'm usually the only woman in the club who has to color her hair.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 02:42 PM
I didn't comment in this thread before now because my temper was fully engaged. I'm still fuming. This happened in Halifax, my home town. :mad: It's infuriating that this sort of bigotry is not only possible, but apparently tolerated.

Would you prefer an Iron Fist that tolerates no dissent?
That tells you how to act? even trivial details such as this?
PLUS: Read my above post. The entire weight issue is based on some sensitive bar-hoppers assumption.

A night club isn't exactly the fancy dress ball.
Night clubs are just meat markets.

It's a privately owned business and not only should their running of it be tolerated- but protected as a RIGHT.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-28, 02:49 PM
Neverfly has a point. The article doesn't say the woman's weight was why she was asked to leave (though I don't think calling her whiney is in order). It sounded more like the bouncer was just randomly rude to a woman he was turning away for whatever reason some people tend to be rude to random strangers. I'd pick this fight more with the bouncer than with the actual club. Sure, you can argue that the bouncer is a representative of the club but the club doesn't control their verbal statements.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 02:53 PM
I get kinda mad when people try to restrict freedom.

So maybe "whiney" isn't a good choice of words.
Maybe it is.

But it's not the nightclubs fault nor responsibility that the woman is overweight

They didn't sit her at a table for a couple years and feed her cheesecake.

She has obviously been aware of her choices that resulted in her weight, enough so that she realized she needed to lose weight.

NOW shes complaining about someone not liking her weight.
When she herself didn't like it enough to start losing it.
So it's OK for her to not like it but if someone ELSE doesn't like it- oh they are bad and the government needs to do something about it.

How Silly!

Maksutov
2007-Aug-28, 02:54 PM
They'll have age limits next. I can see it now: No Cougars Allowed....Sounds more like a species limit.

One policy I could agree with:

NO DROP BEARS ALLOWED

:)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 02:57 PM
They'll have age limits next. I can see it now: No Cougars Allowed.

I feel weird enough going into clubs at my age anyway. I'm below the 'weight limit', but everybody in there is about 15 years younger than I am. I'm usually the only woman in the club who has to color her hair.

On the contrary. We like older women.:lol:

<sigh> too bad you ran off and got married:p

Nicolas
2007-Aug-28, 03:07 PM
Sounds more like a species limit.

One policy I could agree with:

NO DROP BEARS ALLOWED

:)

Nownow, not too strict please. I suggest banning long left leg wild Haggis only.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-28, 03:08 PM
On the contrary. We like older women.:lol:

<sigh> too bad you ran off and got married:p

:D


Sounds more like a species limit.

One policy I could agree with:

NO DROP BEARS ALLOWED


'Drop Bears'?? :lol:

Nicolas
2007-Aug-28, 03:11 PM
fwiiiiiiiiiiiiii *PLOF*

Aaaah no not the Breezer guy!! OOh the humanity!

[dramatization. Drop bear induced death of Breezer guy not confirmed.]

Moose
2007-Aug-28, 03:25 PM
Sure, you can argue that the bouncer is a representative of the club but the club doesn't control their verbal statements.

"Control", no. "Is responsible for", yes. "Is liable for", yes.

If the club had a legitimate reason for denying entry to the woman, now is a very good time for them to clarify the reasons for their decision.

As it stands, the only reason given is: "no fat chicks". Reprehensible from an individual/company and totally unacceptable in a civilized and responsible society.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-28, 03:37 PM
"Control", no. "Is responsible for", yes. "Is liable for", yes.

If the club had a legitimate reason for denying entry to the woman, now is a very good time for them to clarify the reasons for their decision.

As it stands, the only reason given is: "no fat chicks". Reprehensible from an individual/company and totally unacceptable in a civilized and responsible society.

The bouncer is not a minor, and none can actually physically control what another person says under normal circumstances. I am not in the bouncer business and I am not trying to make a statement about all bouncers because I've met loads of decent ones, but my guess is that clubs put more a bouncer's size higher on the priority list than their enlightenment in viewing the female gender. You are expecting the employer club to have a much greater estimate of their employee's character than any employer has in practice, unless they have employed the person for an extended period. I agree the incident is rude and unacceptable but it sounds more like some ignorant bloke who spents too much time oggling Kiera Knightley thought he was being clever. Does the woman in question deserve an apology? Yes. Are the comments of one bouncer enough for me to form an informed opinion about the whole establishment? Certainly not. The bouncer is (presumably) an adult human being responsible for themself.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-28, 03:41 PM
Anthem for having the larger ladies around when going out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D99n9f3vU4) (!!youtube videoclip link!!)

Now that's just an opinion from a guy who turned out to have more specific opinions about girls... ;)

(though I agree about this song: not being skinny can be a joy :))

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 03:42 PM
I had to google Kiera Knightley.

I was dissappointed.

pilgrim
2007-Aug-28, 03:47 PM
I had to google Kiera Knightley.

I was dissappointed.

You just made me feel so, like, MTV generation :p Move over Miss South Carolina!

Peter Wilson
2007-Aug-28, 05:04 PM
I think it is a safe bet that she is overweight because of eating too much food...:(
I think its safe to say weight is 4/5ths determined by some genetic set-point.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 05:08 PM
:(
I think its safe to say weight is 4/5ths determined by some genetic set-point.

So all our ancestors were fat?

We don't lead the hard working active lifestyles our ancestors did. We invent more and more machines to do for us.

I mean... There are actually automobiles that shift gears for you so you don't have to go to all the trouble!
Ive heard people say the next vehicle they buy will be automatic because they are tired of all the work of shifting gears :rolleyes:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 05:15 PM
I'll make a personal note here.

I don't have issues with overweight people.

Some obesity can be pretty unattractive! But weight can also be lost too.

That doesn't mean he or she will be motivated enough to lose the weight.

Ive met some very attractive big women.

But being overweight is also a health concern.
The risk of heartattacks, high cholesterol, liver damage, spinal damage, brain clogs etc could encourgage people to shed the pounds and be more fit.

Why does it have to be about looking good? Looking good is a matter of perception. Some guys aren't attracted to thin skinny women. Some women like a little tummy on a man.
Looking good when physically fit can be a side effect of living a more healthy lifestyle.

Celestial Mechanic
2007-Aug-28, 05:20 PM
An overweight woman, a philosopher, and a rabbi walk into a night-club -- URK!!!

[Celestial Mechanic is pulled off-page by a hook (and not a moment too soon), sort of like in the comic strip "Ernie".] ;)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 05:29 PM
An overweight woman, a philosopher, and a rabbi walk into a night-club -- URK!!!

[Celestial Mechanic is pulled off-page by a hook (and not a moment too soon), sort of like in the comic strip "Ernie".] ;)

We need to get Eddy Izzard to do the routine:think:
Only an executive transvestite can pull it off.

tdvance
2007-Aug-28, 06:03 PM
An overweight woman, a philosopher, and a rabbi walk into a night-club and the bartender says, "what's this, some kind of joke?"

Todd

PetersCreek
2007-Aug-28, 07:15 PM
These kinds of discussions always make me fervently wish that folks would take a nice big step back from the word, discrimination. IMO, it has become far to much of a touchy-feely, politically correct boogey man. Discrimination is a fact of life. Everyone experiences it. Everyone engages in it. Everyone.

If you've ever been turned away from a job or a promotion, you were discriminated against. Maybe you're the tardy sort. Perhaps you just didn't have the skills needed. You may have simply mispoken and rubbed the boss the wrong way. Discrimination.

Gentleman prefer blondes. Discrimination. You have to be "this tall" to ride this attraction. Discrimination. "No, I don't want to dance with you! You're a geek!" Discrimination. First come, first served. Discrimination. Not valid in AK or HI. Discrimination.

Now, I think our current laws prohibiting certain brands of discrimination are a good thing. But some folks seem to think they cover anything that flips their moral outrage switch. These people need the reality check that no one owes them a warm, fuzzy feeling in all of life's endeavors.

Me, I'm no hard body, myself. I'm built for comfort, not speed. I'm a bit of a geek, too. On top of that, I'm a Southerner by birth and upbringing...and an evil, gun-totin' Republican, to boot. But I sure as heck realize and accept that I have no right to a seat in any social circle I take a shine to. I have no right to force myself into a privately owned establishment. And no matter how loudly I shout discrimination, I and my man-boobs are not going to get a waitressing job at Hooters...um...not that I aspired to such. Ya gotta admit, though, the shorts are kinda cute.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 07:33 PM
These kinds of discussions always make me fervently wish that folks would take a nice big step back from the word, discrimination. IMO, it has become far to much of a touchy-feely, politically correct boogey man. Discrimination is a fact of life. Everyone experiences it. Everyone engages in it. Everyone.

If you've ever been turned away from a job or a promotion, you were discriminated against. Maybe you're the tardy sort. Perhaps you just didn't have the skills needed. You may have simply mispoken and rubbed the boss the wrong way. Discrimination.

Gentleman prefer blondes. Discrimination. You have to be "this tall" to ride this attraction. Discrimination. "No, I don't want to dance with you! You're a geek!" Discrimination. First come, first served. Discrimination. Not valid in AK or HI. Discrimination.

Now, I think our current laws prohibiting certain brands of discrimination are a good thing. But some folks seem to think they cover anything that flips their moral outrage switch. These people need the reality check that no one owes them a warm, fuzzy feeling in all of life's endeavors.

Me, I'm no hard body, myself. I'm built for comfort, not speed. I'm a bit of a geek, too. On top of that, I'm a Southerner by birth and upbringing...and an evil, gun-totin' Republican, to boot. But I sure as heck realize and accept that I have no right to a seat in any social circle I take a shine to. I have no right to force myself into a privately owned establishment. And no matter how loudly I shout discrimination, I and my man-boobs are not going to get a waitressing job at Hooters...um...not that I aspired to such. Ya gotta admit, though, the shorts are kinda cute.
Wow.
If I was a woman, I'd be attracted.
Fortunately I'm not, so I'm not.

But I can clap you on the back and say "Well said!" like I just did for Spock Jenkins in another thread.

The two posts I just read seemed able to simplify and put forth in rational, no nonsense terms-Reality.
I must admire that as it isn't something I'm very good at.

Paul Beardsley
2007-Aug-28, 08:33 PM
These kinds of discussions always make me fervently wish that folks would take a nice big step back from the word, discrimination. IMO, it has become far to much of a touchy-feely, politically correct boogey man. Discrimination is a fact of life. Everyone experiences it. Everyone engages in it. Everyone.
The way I see it, there is relevant discrimination and irrelevant. If you're turned down for a job because the evidence suggests you are not capable of doing it, that is relevant discrimination. If you are turned down for a job because you like to go trainspotting in your spare time, that's irrelevant discrimination.

PetersCreek
2007-Aug-28, 09:07 PM
Local/state laws notwithstanding, both forms of discrimination are legal...I think. [insert obligatory IANAL disclaimer here] You and I may not agree with it, like it, or think it's particularly smart or moral discrimination but I don't believe trainspotters to be a protected class. If some bonehead wants to exercise his freedom of association by not hiring trainspotters, well...not all consequences are legal. Some are social. Some are economic.

Moose
2007-Aug-28, 09:14 PM
There's also lawful discrimination and unlawful discrimination. Discrimination based on behavior is generally lawful. (Examples: No eating in the public library, no smoking at restaurants, no shirt-no service at McDick's.) Discrimination based on physical characteristics is generally unlawful. (Examples: Blacks can't be made to ride at the back of the bus. Businesses must follow disability access laws.)

While you can generally discriminate at will on your own property, you can't do so if you are using your property as a place of business, opening it as a semi-public space. You can't choose to not serve Hispanics if your business is open to Caucasians.

Unfortunately, it still appears to be legal to discriminate based on gender (women's only gyms) and weight (no fat chicks). Society still has room to grow (up), it would seem.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-28, 09:20 PM
There's also lawful discrimination and unlawful discrimination. Discrimination based on behavior is generally lawful. (Examples: No eating in the public library, no smoking at restaurants, no shirt-no service at McDick's.) Discrimination based on physical characteristics is generally unlawful. (Examples: Blacks can't be made to ride at the back of the bus. Businesses must follow disability access laws.)

While you can generally discriminate at will on your own property, you can't do so if you are using your property as a place of business, opening it as a semi-public space. You can't choose to not serve Hispanics if your business is open to Caucasians.

Unfortunately, it still appears to be legal to discriminate based on gender (women's only gyms) and weight (no fat chicks). Society still has room to grow (up), it would seem.

I knew that this claim would come up and it's rubbish.

A person does not choose to be born male or female or black or caucasian or asian.

But a person does have a choice about their weight.
Weight is a part of behavior. Eating and staying active- whether it is because you want to increase your years or to look fit and trim.
And you can choose to be a lazy slob.
You can choose to be an active but chubby person too.
These are options in life and if someone doesn't like the choice you made then you don't need to deal with them do you?

Even if an establishment chooses to provide a service to the public, does not mean they have to serve anyone.
If the nightclub has a particular drunk thats troublesome- they can exclude him from the club.
If the have prostitutes in the club- they can kick them out too.
If the club doesn't like an overweight person because their choice in life makes a bad image for their business(Our patrons aren't as good looking as the night club down the street) they can ask them to leave too.
If some people agree with the woman who was kicked out claiming discrimination ( Who we are yet as of uncertain to why she was really asked to leave) they may ALSO avoid going to that club.

You can be comfortable with your weight, appearance etc, but you don't have the right to demand that other people must be comfortable with it too.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-28, 10:25 PM
I didn't comment in this thread before now because my temper was fully engaged. I'm still fuming. This happened in Halifax, my home town. :mad: It's infuriating that this sort of bigotry is not only possible, but apparently tolerated.

I'm surprised that it was allowed under discrimination laws. I've never had a real weight problem except when I was taking large doses of prednisone. I hardly ever felt full, and it was torture going without food. I gained 60 pounds during that time, and had no problem losing it again after I went off prednisone and no longer had that hunger (people sometimes would be concerned when I'd eat one small meal a day, but the fact is, I was living off fat and I just wasn't hungry).

If prednisone can do that to me, given the way it mucks up body chemistry, I can certainly see why some people would be like that without drugs, and it may not be something that can easily be medically verified or treated.

Legal or not, weight discrimination is hardly fair, and it's hard to understand how it would impact the health of other patrons.

PetersCreek
2007-Aug-28, 10:33 PM
Unfortunately, it still appears to be legal to discriminate based on gender (women's only gyms) and weight (no fat chicks). Society still has room to grow (up), it would seem.

I agree that society has some growing up to do but for rather the opposite reason than you. As I indicated previously, I believe the grown up thing to do is suck it up and deal with the reality that one is not necessarily welcome or accepted in all places by all people.

Don't get me wrong, I support equal opportunity under the law. But to call it unfortunate that women may have a gym where they can work out with other women only? Freedom of association and a free market suggests to me that they should be able to do so and a business owner should be able to provide that service. Where do I get the right to force my sweaty presence among them? Where is it enshrined in the Constitution that I must be allowed to work out in that gym? Suffering no harm from the exlusion, I couldn't fathom throwing a tantrum and playing the discrimination card.

Moose
2007-Aug-28, 10:38 PM
Where do I get the right to force my sweaty presence among them? Where is it enshrined in the Constitution that I must be allowed to work out in that gym?

When clubs, golf or otherwise, were no longer permitted to be men's only. I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on that, but fair's fair. And I really see no difference whatsoever between that and making Rosa Parks sit at the back of the bus and use coloreds-only restrooms.

Discrimination based solely on arbitrary physical characteristics is wrong. Not in MY hometown.

PetersCreek
2007-Aug-29, 12:00 AM
When clubs, golf or otherwise, were no longer permitted to be men's only. I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on that, but fair's fair. And I really see no difference whatsoever between that and making Rosa Parks sit at the back of the bus and use coloreds-only restrooms.

Yet we continue to have sexually segregated restrooms, dressing rooms, and the like as a societal norm. So we do recognize and accommodate physical differences between groups and we attempt to balance the rights of certain individuals against the rights of others.

Now that our society isn't nearly as male-dominated as it used to be and the market readily supports coed as well as women-only services, you bet that I think Spanky should be free to have his He-Man Woman Hater's Club. There was a time when the male-dominated clubs and such were (virtually) the only games in town. So, denying women (or blacks, or...) access at all was tantamount to denying them access entirely since there was pretty much nowhere else to go...or at least no place comparable. As often happens, I think the pendulum swung too far in the changing times.

As for your Rosa Parks analogy...racial segregation fails my test for balancing of rights. Men, women, whites, blacks, et al have equal rights to access public transportation and no reasonable balance of competing rights is achieved by either restricting or granting preferential access. Now if a bunch of racist morons want to get together and charter a whatever-only bus, more power to 'em. They're free to do so. But when it comes to public transportation on public streets, however, society has decided by law that everyone's rights are best served by defining the "public" as everyone without regard to race, creed, color, etc...and they get no disagreement from me.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 12:30 AM
When clubs, golf or otherwise, were no longer permitted to be men's only. I'm pretty sure I know where you stand on that, but fair's fair. And I really see no difference whatsoever between that and making Rosa Parks sit at the back of the bus and use coloreds-only restrooms.


Ditto. Now, there is the libertarian position that it should be up to the owner to decide whether to allow people in by any criteria they choose, with the argument that they would suffer economically if they refuse a large fraction of the population. If someone is going to choose the libertarian argument, then so be it and we can look at the pros and cons. But it's far different to say "there shouldn't be legal discrimination, except for [fill in here]." That's what seems to be happening in this case.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 12:35 AM
Yet we continue to have sexually segregated restrooms, dressing rooms, and the like as a societal norm. So we do recognize and accommodate physical differences between groups and we attempt to balance the rights of certain individuals against the rights of others.


I'm curious (and I don't have time right now to do the research) but does anyone have any idea what the laws are behind sexually segregated restrooms, dressing rooms, etc.? I'm wondering how much of that is enshrined in law, and how much is simply that there is little serious interest in changing it?

PetersCreek
2007-Aug-29, 01:14 AM
Good question. Since I've seen many dual-gender (but one-at-a-time, please) restrooms, I doubt that segregation is required in the law here. In my office, we have segregated multi-user restrooms and one dual-gender, single-user restroom...and we're a federal government office. From what I remember of the remodel, the focus was on code and ADA compliance. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the only real requirement related to segregation would be "separate but equal."

Moose
2007-Aug-29, 01:17 AM
I'm curious (and I don't have time right now to do the research) but does anyone have any idea what the laws are behind sexually segregated restrooms, dressing rooms, etc.? I'm wondering how much of that is enshrined in law, and how much is simply that there is little serious interest in changing it?

No idea. I don't think there's much enforcement there. Regardless, everybody gets to go to the bathroom whenever they need to. Equal opportunity under the law.

I can say, however, that the last time I went to a public pool, I went with my goddaughter's family. We used the family changing room. Co-ed. Adults. Children. Men. Women. There were a bunch of partitioned cubicles for privacy, as well as a common locker area. There were both open showers and cubicles as well.

Gas stations and other places frequently have unisex single-user restrooms as well.

Moose
2007-Aug-29, 01:29 AM
Yet we continue to have sexually segregated restrooms, dressing rooms, and the like as a societal norm. So we do recognize and accommodate physical differences between groups and we attempt to balance the rights of certain individuals against the rights of others.

Equal opportunity under the law. As I pointed out above, wherever they go, everybody has equal access to the restrooms. You don't get situations where only men have restroom facilities and women don't. Or "white only" restrooms, or whatnot. Everybody gets an equal opportunity to have their dump.

Just like everybody has an equal opportunity to shop wherever they like. I've seen decisions (IANAL) on find-law where the judge made it clear that private businesses open to the public are necessarily considered semi-public under the law. That means their property rights are generally those of a private place, but their "right" to discriminate are limited to situations similar to those of a public area. Basically behavior. Not physical characteristics. That means no Jew-prohibited stores and disability rights. It also means that gender segregation is due for some rulings just as soon someone has the cash.

I'm not at all familiar with Canadian law, but the Charter of Rights and Freedoms has a lot to say about equal opportunity under the law, and about discrimination. From that and how businesses have been forced to adapt to the times (involuntarily, kicking and screaming, as businesses have historically done), I can probably make some good guesses as to where the tested line currently is.

ASEI
2007-Aug-29, 01:32 AM
The way I see it, there is relevant discrimination and irrelevant.

I may have classed this as irrelevant a few years ago. And I still think no legal action should be taken against a private establishment. Still ... has anyone noticed just how fashionable and permissible it has become to savage obese people?

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-29, 01:55 AM
:(
I think its safe to say weight is 4/5ths determined by some genetic set-point. Is that a verified scientific fact? I don’t think so. Regardless of a person’s genetic disposition, IMO it is impossible for a person to become overweight if they do not eat more food than their body utilizes for energy and rebuilding.

Swordfish
2007-Aug-29, 05:53 AM
I'm not sure if someone said this, and I'm kinda tired so I may have read it wrong, but was her weight the real reason she was kicked out?

The article says that, after demanding to know why she wasn't allowed back in, the bouncer wouldn't answer, and, as she was walking away, he said "lose weight." It seems to me that there very well could be another reason the club didn't want her inside and that the bouncer was just being a jerk.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 07:11 AM
Is that a verified scientific fact? I don’t think so. Regardless of a person’s genetic disposition, IMO it is impossible for a person to become overweight if they do not eat more food than their body utilizes for energy and rebuilding.

Sure, and imagine how fun that is when you feel like you're starving. As I said just a couple posts ago, when I was taking high dose prednisone, it was almost impossible for me to feel full. Normally, I don't think about food very much, and can get annoyed with people that obsess about food. But when I was taking a lot of prednisone, I had to eat a good sized meal every two hours. Much longer than that and I'd start shaking and feel like I was starving. I absolutely hated being fat. I couldn't even stand looking at myself in the mirror. I was thrilled when I was able to cut the pred.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone overweight is like that, but it also isn't as simple as "don't eat so much."

novaderrik
2007-Aug-29, 08:54 AM
fat people are discriminated against because, from a purely instinctual primal standpoint, they are seen by most people as unhealthy and thus undesirable to use for breeding purposes. and, when you get right down to it, it's all about breeding.
yeah, i know- some people are attracted to larger mates or they put a higher priority on other desirable traits like intelligence that ensure not only their survival, but the survival of their offspring. but they are the minority.
remember, when you get right down to it, Homo Sapiens is just another member of the primate branch of the mammalian section of the animal kingdom, and most of our behaviors are just advanced versions of what happens in populations of other animals.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:51 AM
Ditto. Now, there is the libertarian position that it should be up to the owner to decide whether to allow people in by any criteria they choose, with the argument that they would suffer economically if they refuse a large fraction of the population. If someone is going to choose the libertarian argument, then so be it and we can look at the pros and cons. But it's far different to say "there shouldn't be legal discrimination, except for [fill in here]." That's what seems to be happening in this case.

Van Rijn,
At the threat of sounding political... calling it Libertarian does not make it Libertarian. By any means. Labling it as some far right wing idea is an old left wingers trick to make it sound extremist.
Saying a business owner has rights is hardly an extremist point of view.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-29, 10:01 AM
'Drop Bears'?? :lol:Here's the truth about this antipodian menace. (http://www.geocities.com/muirnin/db.htm)

Then there are the killer rabbits no fence can control.

Maksutov
2007-Aug-29, 10:03 AM
What is it you americans and the bacon.It might be because we can't get much peameal bacon here in the States.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Aug-29, 11:58 AM
update- this woman and her friends have organized a 'BBW' pub-crawl for October....I plan on going

check out (Facebook) BBW PUB CRAWL

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 12:05 PM
update- this woman and her friends have organized a 'BBW' pub-crawl for October....I plan on going

check out (Facebook) BBW PUB CRAWL

There is one of those around here called club Envy. (Clarify- it's an actual club for "BBW" not a pub crawl.

The whole BBW is ridiculous in itself. I have seen overweight women that are beautiful, but I have seen ugly ones too. The Big Beautiful Woman fad is, indeed, a stereotype they WANT to display.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-29, 01:26 PM
There seem to be a lot of guys on the BAUT who either do not mind if women are overweight, or actually prefer women to be a bit overweight. I'm just wondering if this is generally true for the guys on the forum or just an error of attribution on my part...:think:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 01:39 PM
There seem to be a lot of guys on the BAUT who either do not mind if women are overweight, or actually prefer women to be a bit overweight. I'm just wondering if this is generally true for the guys on the forum or just an error of attribution on my part...:think:

:lol:

Is a poll in the works?:p

I think it's general across the board.

No sane man wants a bag of bones:p
I MEANT BAG NOT BAD

Damburger
2007-Aug-29, 01:46 PM
How is turning away someone for being fat different from a nightclub having a dress code. You are all talking as if she was turned away for not looking like a model. She was turned away for weighing over 100kg. If a nightclub doesn't want to cater for the grossly obese, why should they have to? Why is it a human rights violation any more than them not letting a tramp in?

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 01:49 PM
How is turning away someone for being fat different from a nightclub having a dress code. You are all talking as if she was turned away for not looking like a model. She was turned away for weighing over 100kg. If a nightclub doesn't want to cater for the grossly obese, why should they have to? Why is it a human rights violation any more than them not letting a tramp in?
Im MORE skeptical by that as well.
She isnt complaining that they didnt let her in
They DID let her in.
Something happened at some point that later- they didnt want her back in. She THINKS it was her weight.

However, a good question to ask is, is this a common theme with this nightclub? Do they regularly discriminate against overweight people?

Or was there something particular with this girl that instigated her being asked to leave the night club?

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-29, 02:01 PM
:lol:

Is a poll in the works?:p


Maybe :think:

Fazor
2007-Aug-29, 02:24 PM
However, a good question to ask is, is this a common theme with this nightclub? Do they regularly discriminate against overweight people?

Or was there something particular with this girl that instigated her being asked to leave the night club?

Very good points. The bouncer made a comment to her about her weight, but that doesn't mean that the club kept her out because of her weight. It just means the bouncer doesn't like fat chicks. More investigation would be required; except that either way it seems there's no case to prosecute. If I were here, I just wouldn't go there anymore. Why would I want to give them more of my money?

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 03:07 PM
There seem to be a lot of guys on the BAUT who either do not mind if women are overweight, or actually prefer women to be a bit overweight. I'm just wondering if this is generally true for the guys on the forum or just an error of attribution on my part...:think:

Speaking in dress sizes, my tolerance for attraction runs from about a size 6 to a size 12. Sometimes higher, but its all in how they carry it.

Its not that I don't care, its just that I'm a little more forgiving than Vogue and Cosmo.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-29, 03:18 PM
Would that be a standard size 6, or the size 6 nowadays, which is more like a standard size 10?

Hard to tell a woman's dress size now that vanity-sizing has become so widespread.

Fazor
2007-Aug-29, 03:21 PM
Yeah I don't know how you women put up with it. My g/f has clothes that fit the same, but are 6 different sizes. I won't say which in the interest of not being slapped for overestimating lol.

Mens clothes just use the actuall inches, therefore size 36 waist will ALWAYS be the same size. I haven't used a dressing room in probably 10 years.

Nicolas
2007-Aug-29, 03:24 PM
Hmmmm, I have shoes between 43 and 53, all fit. 46-47 is my shoe size, but I can't just buy them without trying or I might end up with something totally useless.

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 03:43 PM
Would that be a standard size 6, or the size 6 nowadays, which is more like a standard size 10?

Hard to tell a woman's dress size now that vanity-sizing has become so widespread.


I'll get back to you...most likely standard, which is about the last time I kept up with that kind of thing.

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-29, 05:04 PM
How is turning away someone for being fat different from a nightclub having a dress code. You are all talking as if she was turned away for not looking like a model. She was turned away for weighing over 100kg. If a nightclub doesn't want to cater for the grossly obese, why should they have to? Why is it a human rights violation any more than them not letting a tramp in?Maybe it was a dress code violation. Does anyone know that the dress code does not include shoes, pants & shirt or dress, all clean and none over size 16? :)

Gillianren
2007-Aug-29, 05:22 PM
fat people are discriminated against because, from a purely instinctual primal standpoint, they are seen by most people as unhealthy and thus undesirable to use for breeding purposes. and, when you get right down to it, it's all about breeding.

Actually, the discrimination against fat people is of very recent vintage. Look at medieval art; in the 14th Century, women's clothing was all designed to make women look pregnant, or at least paunchy. Neolithic art made women look huge, which was considered very desirable.

NEOWatcher
2007-Aug-29, 05:25 PM
And when she sung to the bouncer, the bouncer considered it to be over. :whistle:

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 05:59 PM
Actually, the discrimination against fat people is of very recent vintage. Look at medieval art; in the 14th Century, women's clothing was all designed to make women look pregnant, or at least paunchy. Neolithic art made women look huge, which was considered very desirable.

This is very true and now that you mention it- so obvious:p

Many paintings show women to be chubby and some even more than chubby.

I don't intend this next statement as a sexist remark- But mothers telling their daughters to be thin seems to be a factor in societies thin image more so that people laughing at, discriminating against or showing an air of disinterest in people who are not thin.

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-29, 06:12 PM
Perhaps the woman should go see Tadzu Lempke for an effective weight loss program.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 06:16 PM
Perhaps the woman should go see Tadzu Lempke for an effective weight loss program.

Would be better than her pointing the finger at everyone else for her own responsibilities.

Fazor
2007-Aug-29, 08:25 PM
Would be better than her pointing the finger at everyone else for her own responsibilities. Well, in the interest of fairness, we can't assume her weight is her fault. It *probably* is, but there are certianly factors which may well be beyond her control.

Damburger
2007-Aug-29, 08:29 PM
Would be better than her pointing the finger at everyone else for her own responsibilities. Well, in the interest of fairness, we can't assume her weight is her fault. It *probably* is, but there are certianly factors which may well be beyond her control.

Unless she is a goose on a foie gras farm, she isn't been forcefed. The flab has to come from something and all of it passed her lips at some point.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 08:34 PM
Yeah the whole "gland problem" is over worked.
Few people out of the many many many many people that are overweight can't control it.
That's just an excuse.

Wahhh... Somebody call a waaahhhmbulance...

Gillianren
2007-Aug-29, 09:03 PM
Any number of people on this very board have or have had reasons that they were above their ideal weight. Aside from just eating too much. As I've said before, I hardly eat anything these days, and I'm still overweight. I can't exercise without extreme physical pain, and due to the bipolar disorder, my eating habits are irregular enough to send my metabolism out of balance. Now, I am slowly losing a little weight, but not enough and not fast enough. (And, yes, I know that losing weight too quickly is just as dangerous as putting it on that quickly. I could still be losing weight faster than I am.)

Yes. For a majority of people, it's simply that they eat too much and don't exercise enough. Heck, it's how I put on the weight in the first place, and I'll admit that. But I'm generally taking in between 1000 and 1500 calories a day, and I'm still overweight, because the weight doesn't come off like magic.

A few hundred years ago, a woman of my weight was desirable because she could withstand the odd famine--and it proved that she was wealthy enough to be able to afford to eat as she pleased. She also had the leisure that she wasn't burning the calories as soon as she consumed them. Nowadays, a majority of people have sedentary jobs, and it takes leisure to burn off calories.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 09:06 PM
Van Rijn,
At the threat of sounding political... calling it Libertarian does not make it Libertarian. By any means. Labling it as some far right wing idea is an old left wingers trick to make it sound extremist.
Saying a business owner has rights is hardly an extremist point of view.

The standard libertarian (note the small "l" - not indicating a party) position is that an owner should be able to legally choose who they will allow on their property by any criteria they choose*. That is what I said, and it is a standard libertarian argument that the owner can choose. That is not labeling it as "far right" or "far left" (and, by the way, I get really annoyed by one axis political labels). Nor am I saying that a libertarian will discriminate. The point I was making is that you can argue for the libertarian position, or you can argue for the anti-discrimination law position, but how do you argue for a position that's neither? Here, some discrimination is legally allowed (for a presumably well behaved clean human being) but other types of discrimination would not be allowed.

*Yes, that would include limitations by race if they choose.

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 09:08 PM
Yeah the whole "gland problem" is over worked.
Few people out of the many many many many people that are overweight can't control it.
That's just an excuse.

Wahhh... Somebody call a waaahhhmbulance...

Some of it is diet, other parts of it is activity level. Part of my own ongoing struggle is the result of a job thats 99% sitting at a desk.

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 09:17 PM
How is turning away someone for being fat different from a nightclub having a dress code. You are all talking as if she was turned away for not looking like a model. She was turned away for weighing over 100kg. If a nightclub doesn't want to cater for the grossly obese, why should they have to? Why is it a human rights violation any more than them not letting a tramp in?

So, are you saying that, if she was well behaved, clean, wearing decent clothing and paying her tab there is no difference between her and a "tramp"?

Damburger
2007-Aug-29, 09:25 PM
So, are you saying that, if she was well behaved, clean, wearing decent clothing and paying her tab there is no difference between her and a "tramp"?

She is still, at her weight, making the place look untidy. Yes, nightclubs want to create a certain image. Yes, they will exclude you if you do not fit into their desired image. That is why I own nice shoes.

I've taken far too much undeserved abuse throughout my life to have any sympathy for peoples self-inflicted problems causing others to mistreat them.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:28 PM
Some of it is diet, other parts of it is activity level. Part of my own ongoing struggle is the result of a job thats 99% sitting at a desk.

Are you required to sit?
You don't think this sounds like an excuse?
It does to me.

I had a desk job once. And I took to work with me the same two things I have sitting at this very desk right now. (actually under at the moment:p )
Two sets of weights.

Most of the time that I'm around this desk- the chair is up against the back wall not being used. Sometimes I do sit in it. And lift the weights with my feet.
Im not motivited by health or my own weight or any desire to build muscle.

It's just that if my legs go unused after I use them a lot- they ache. Lifting the weights helps and then they are all happy again.

Gillianren, your reason is more plausible by the definition you give. However, in spite of your obstacles you, yourself said you are losing weight even now. An obstacle is just an opportunity to overcome it.

Women usually gain weight after having a baby. Also after getting married.
Funny thing though...
If she seperates or gets a divorce- suddenly those pounds shed real fast.
That isn't all women of course. But enough that that is a well known observation.
Now, an overweight person doesn't bother me. I can be attracted to a skinny girl OR a chubby one. Depends on her heart. Who she is.
But for those people that are disturbed by it- who are any of us to tell them they are wrong? They promote encouragement to lose weight, which is healthier anyway.
So what if they have a preference and make it known.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:32 PM
So, are you saying that, if she was well behaved, clean, wearing decent clothing and paying her tab there is no difference between her and a "tramp"?

You are assmuing these.

At this time we do not know:
1) If her weight was the issue that caused her to be asked to leave the club. It seems unlikely that if she didn't look well enough to enter that they let her in anyway but changed their mind later.

2) We do not know anything about how she behaved, whether she was a nuisance to other patrons who complained or not or how intoxicated she was.


Sidenote: My apologies for the post about libertarianism. It seems I'm easily peeved by that old trick (Like calling fascists right wing even though fascism is a form of socialist government which is left. But Hitler was bad so it makes right wing look bad- even though Hitler was actually a socialist. Weird.)and liable to see it easily even if it was not intended.

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 09:37 PM
Are you required to sit?
You don't think this sounds like an excuse?
It does to me.

Yes, I am required to sit, at a desk, making pretty little drawings so the buildings we design won't fall down and go BOOM.

Then I am required to sit in my car so I can go sit through "progress" meetings listening to clients whine about why the computers should be able to draw the fershtinking buildings themselves so we can cater to their every moronic ignorant question about why it takes two months to design a frelling 1500+ seat church with full rectory support inclusive, and while I'm there, I get to listen to contractors lie through their teeth about things that are "missing" from the drawings, when the idiots never bother to read them all.

Then I get the ultimate privilege of sitting on my duff at the mercy of County Government Bureaucrats who's only purpose in life is to inflate their pathetic egos that are hurt daily with the acknowledgement that that can't cut it at the State or Federal level by making anyone who comes to them for a frelling building permit utterly miserable.

Believe me, I sit, because if I stand up, I'm gonna bloody KILL SOMEBODY!

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:39 PM
:lol:
So uhh...:whistle:
eight hours a day?

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 09:41 PM
:lol:
So uhh...:whistle:
eight hours a day?

Nine, plus an hour for lunch.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:44 PM
Nine, plus an hour for lunch.

Sooo... :whistle:

What do you do when you get off work?
Sit in your car and drive...
Its easier than biking or something.

Eat some food, sit at the computer or in front of the TV at home?
;)

ETA: Be honest!

Doodler
2007-Aug-29, 09:46 PM
Typically when I'm at home, I'm a couch tater. I don't own a TV, but I do spend a lot of time at a computer. Lately, I've also been taking care of the two cats I adopted.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:47 PM
Baby, I had you at hello...

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 09:51 PM
She is still, at her weight, making the place look untidy. Yes, nightclubs want to create a certain image. Yes, they will exclude you if you do not fit into their desired image. That is why I own nice shoes.


Wow. So discrimination is okay.



I've taken far too much undeserved abuse throughout my life to have any sympathy for peoples self-inflicted problems causing others to mistreat them.

Again: Wow. It's okay for people to mistreat her because she is overweight?

And you can't assume she has much of a choice. As I've already mentioned twice in this thread, when I was taking prednisone, it was almost impossible to feel full. The choices were: Constantly feel like you're starving, or eat too much. Try to imagine what it is like to wake up in the morning starving, eating a big meal, then two hours later you again feel you are starving, and so on through the day. Now, that is what I felt, yet when I'm not on prednisone, I rarely have more than two meals in a day, and only one large one. Given the way prednisone affects the body, it's a given that some people naturally have similar issues. You cannot just assume it's their fault.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:55 PM
Wow. So discrimination is okay.



Again: Wow. It's okay for people to mistreat her because she is overweight?




I would hardly consider being asked to leave a nightclub (For reasons unknown to us- weight is an assumption) as being "mistreated."


YES! It is OK for the nightclub to do it.

And if you were in my house and I didn't like you for whatever or any reason(I'm not saying I don't like you here;) :p), I would be perfectly ok in asking you to leave.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-29, 09:58 PM
If I owned a restaurant and a patron was in there farting up a storm...

It may even be debatable as to whether or not the patron could help it...

I would still discriminate against them and ask them to take themselves and their stinky fumes out of my establishment.

Ok so I discriminate and therefore "mistreat" farters. It's not fair and I don't care.

Paracelsus
2007-Aug-29, 10:07 PM
Yes, I am required to sit, at a desk, making pretty little drawings so the buildings we design won't fall down and go BOOM.

Then I am required to sit in my car so I can go sit through "progress" meetings listening to clients whine about why the computers should be able to draw the fershtinking buildings themselves so we can cater to their every moronic ignorant question about why it takes two months to design a frelling 1500+ seat church with full rectory support inclusive, and while I'm there, I get to listen to contractors lie through their teeth about things that are "missing" from the drawings, when the idiots never bother to read them all.

Then I get the ultimate privilege of sitting on my duff at the mercy of County Government Bureaucrats who's only purpose in life is to inflate their pathetic egos that are hurt daily with the acknowledgement that that can't cut it at the State or Federal level by making anyone who comes to them for a frelling building permit utterly miserable.

Believe me, I sit, because if I stand up, I'm gonna bloody KILL SOMEBODY!

Hmmm...sounds like my job, except substitute 'review memos' for drawings...and can't say anything else, unfortunately. :whistle:

publius
2007-Aug-29, 10:14 PM
It may even be debatable as to whether or not the patron could help it...

I would still discriminate against them and ask them to take themselves and their stinky fumes out of my establishment.



Reminds me of an old joke that makes me snicker every time I think of it. A man goes to the doctor and says he's been passing a lot of gas lately, but it's not making any noise or stinking. He didn't think it was anything to worry about, but thought he might better get it checked out.

The doctor then said, well, we won't worry about the flatulence just yet, as the main concern will be to get your hearing checked out and your sinuses cleared up....................


-Richard

Delvo
2007-Aug-29, 10:15 PM
fat people are discriminated against because, from a purely instinctual primal standpoint, they are seen by most people as unhealthy and thus undesirable to use for breeding purposes. and, when you get right down to it, it's all about breeding.There's something else, too: they also can't contribute as much to the work of the group (in a pre-industrial society at least) and consume more of the group's resources. Lack of positive points for sex appeal alone would still leave one in an at least neutral position if all else were equal, but this goes past neutral and into negative-points territory.


:lol:

Is a poll in the works?:pIf it were done, it would have to be with images (like silhouettes or retailers' dress size illustrations on maniquin torsos), because people use the words too differently.


update- this woman and her friends have organized a 'BBW' pub-crawl for OctoberIs a "pub crawl" the same thing we call "bar-hopping" here? (Going to a series of nearby bars for a short time apiece in the same evening/night) "Crawl" sounds somehow appropriate in this case, but maybe "waddle" would be more so...

There's actually a company with a series of dance clubs for fat people in various cities, called "Club Curve". Some of my female co-workers go to a women-only gym called "Curves". Hearing them talk about their gym always makes me think of large crowds of dancing fat people :D... although the name sounds just as much like the name of a strip-club too. :D

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 10:36 PM
So, are you saying that, if she was well behaved, clean, wearing decent clothing and paying her tab there is no difference between her and a "tramp"?

You are assmuing these.

At this time we do not know:
1) If her weight was the issue that caused her to be asked to leave the club. It seems unlikely that if she didn't look well enough to enter that they let her in anyway but changed their mind later.

2) We do not know anything about how she behaved, whether she was a nuisance to other patrons who complained or not or how intoxicated she was.


Actually, I'm not assuming. Note the "if" - I was asking a question. Most of this discussion hinges on the weight issue. There may be other reasons, but that really doesn't matter for the focus of the discussion: If the issue was her weight, was that okay? I don't think so.



Sidenote: My apologies for the post about libertarianism. It seems I'm easily peeved by that old trick (Like calling fascists right wing even though fascism is a form of socialist government which is left. But Hitler was bad so it makes right wing look bad- even though Hitler was actually a socialist. Weird.)and liable to see it easily even if it was not intended.

That's fine, my text was a little unclear in the earlier post. By the way, soon after the Soviet collapse, I remember newspaper articles referring to some of the old time Communists as "right wing." :doh:

Van Rijn
2007-Aug-29, 10:40 PM
If I owned a restaurant and a patron was in there farting up a storm...

It may even be debatable as to whether or not the patron could help it...

I would still discriminate against them and ask them to take themselves and their stinky fumes out of my establishment.

Ok so I discriminate and therefore "mistreat" farters. It's not fair and I don't care.

The difference is that they are directly affecting other patrons.

Gillianren
2007-Aug-30, 12:41 AM
Gillianren, your reason is more plausible by the definition you give. However, in spite of your obstacles you, yourself said you are losing weight even now. An obstacle is just an opportunity to overcome it.

Yeah, I'm losing weight. A few pounds a year. Big whoop.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-30, 12:49 AM
Yeah, I'm losing weight. A few pounds a year. Big whoop.

ok.
Uhhhh...
Well, look at the bright side. Everyone else is gaining at a few pounds a year.

Damburger
2007-Aug-30, 06:58 AM
Sidenote: My apologies for the post about libertarianism. It seems I'm easily peeved by that old trick (Like calling fascists right wing even though fascism is a form of socialist government which is left. But Hitler was bad so it makes right wing look bad- even though Hitler was actually a socialist. Weird.)and liable to see it easily even if it was not intended.

Hitler was not a socialist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_long_knives

I know we are not supposed to discuss politics, but I felt the need to correct a blatant historical lie.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-30, 07:22 AM
Hitler was not a socialist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_long_knives

I know we are not supposed to discuss politics, but I felt the need to correct a blatant historical lie.

Not so blatant it seems.:
Origin of the word:

The fasces, which consisted of a bundle of rods tied around an axe, were an ancient Roman symbol of the authority of the civic magistrates, and the symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break.

Stanley G. Payne defined it as "Anti-conservatism"

Roger Griffin describes it:


[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of anticonservative nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence”[5]

It is a very hard party to identify. But not a "blatant lie" either.

ETA : I read the wiki link you provided.- I don't know what that was supposed to prove aside that he was pretty evil. We knew that already. He was a lunatic.

ETA² : Consider the correction made.

pizzaguy
2007-Aug-30, 03:34 PM
The Dome, a popular Halifax nightspot...

Dionne, who weighs around 230 pounds...

If the places is a 'trendy' place to go, I don't think a 230 pound woman represents the image they are looking for. I think it's within their right to ask ANYONE to leave. I am a balding middle-aged man and I'm sure I probably wouldn't be welcome, either.

If THIS is what she is getting upset over, she must have no life or self-esteem at all.

Neverfly
2007-Aug-30, 05:25 PM
If the places is a 'trendy' place to go, I don't think a 230 pound woman represents the image they are looking for. I think it's within their right to ask ANYONE to leave. I am a balding middle-aged man and I'm sure I probably wouldn't be welcome, either.

If THIS is what she is getting upset over, she must have no life or self-esteem at all.

I think it's a sign of the times. Stand up and shout "Discrimination! Discrimination!" Then you are a hero for the equal rights movement or some such.
Personal responsibility is sooooo yesterday.
Todays society prefers to blame other people for self created problems.

NEOWatcher
2007-Aug-30, 05:36 PM
Todays society prefers to blame other people for self created problems.

Absolutely correct... Just like Obesity is caused by the post office.

(apologies if I go too far OT)

A new study says ZIP codes are surprisingly accurate predictors of obesity (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20501356/site/newsweek/)

Mostly a tongue in cheek comment about the article, but the stress of why they used zip codes is a bit much.

A sampling of interview questions...

Do ZIP codes affect grocery stores?
Just how much fatter are people who live in ZIP codes with lower property values?
Do you think the ZIP code effect would hold true in other parts of the country?
How did you get the idea to investigate obesity in this way?
What's next? Will you look at other ZIP codes?
Will everyone now want to move to rich, thin ZIP codes like Beverly Hills 90210?

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-31, 01:27 AM
If the places is a 'trendy' place to go, I don't think a 230 pound woman represents the image they are looking for. I think it's within their right to ask ANYONE to leave. I am a balding middle-aged man and I'm sure I probably wouldn't be welcome, either.
Hi pizzaguy. It really is a small world (http://www.neartodisneyresort.com/Disneyland_Chorus_-_It_s_a_Small_World.mp3) after all. :)

At 60 years old, I can still mingle with the locals in the popular watering holes. (they think I’m about 40-45) Of course, out here in Wyoming, there are no “trendy” nightclubs. Here we have bars. Our local “clubs” (American Legion, Elks, Eagles) have bars. Naturally, a little Miss Clairol and a young attitude doesn’t hurt.

PS: I have great abs, and can hold in my gut all night long. :)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-31, 01:49 AM
Hi pizzaguy. It really is a small world (http://www.neartodisneyresort.com/Disneyland_Chorus_-_It_s_a_Small_World.mp3) after all. :)

At 60 years old, I can still mingle with the locals in the popular watering holes. (they think I’m about 40-45) Of course, out here in Wyoming, there are no “trendy” nightclubs. Here we have bars. Our local “clubs” (American Legion, Elks, Eagles) have bars. Naturally, a little Miss Clairol and a young attitude doesn’t hurt.

PS: I have great abs, and can hold in my gut all night long. :)

Mental Avenger (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records/human_body/body_beautiful/oldest_male_stripper.aspx)

MentalAvenger
2007-Aug-31, 02:59 AM
One can only wonder why you were familiar with that picture. :)

Neverfly
2007-Aug-31, 03:17 AM
One can only wonder why you were familiar with that picture. :)

We all need a role model;)

pizzaguy
2007-Sep-01, 06:53 PM
Good to stumble across you again, Mental. Hope all is well with you. I am back in full time school (two year electronics degree) and will continue with school after that...

Overall, life is good. I'm still single (maybe that's why life is good!?!)