PDA

View Full Version : Superconducting Supercollider ?



SAMU
2002-Mar-02, 08:22 AM
The last work I did in high energy physics was some classified fabrication of one of the detector structures for one of the detector strategies for the Superconducting Supercollider

http://www.hep.net/ssc/new/history/appendixa.html

shortly before the cancelation of the project 9 years ago. It was, at that time, to be the highest energy accelerator practicable on earth to yield practical data.

Has there been any other accelerator project completed outside the US of the energy potential of the SSC?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SAMU on 2002-03-02 03:23 ]</font>

Russ
2002-Mar-04, 01:38 PM
On 2002-03-02 03:22, SAMU wrote:

Has there been any other accelerator project completed outside the US of the energy potential of the SSC?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SAMU on 2002-03-02 03:23 ]</font>


I don't know what the power levels are but the last one that I know of was at CERN in Switzerland about '94. As I recall, our SCSC was to be built to "beat" the Swiss at the collider power game.

John Kierein
2002-Mar-04, 08:19 PM
Nothing beats nature.
http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/ohmygodpart.html

SAMU
2002-Mar-05, 04:49 AM
Thanks for the link John. I'd been aware that atmospheric cosmic ray detection had been devised in the 50s but didn't know it had been developed so far by now.

SAMU

2002-Mar-05, 10:54 AM
<a name="20020305.4:47"> page 20020305.4:47 aka Log on Just in case
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1:
--

Russ
2002-Mar-05, 12:37 PM
I appologize for telling you wrong. At least I may have been wrong. But I might be wrong about that.

In the April issue of Astronomy Magazine, page 22, far left, first whole paragraph, I quote: "With the Tevatron accelerator (the world's most energetic particle accelerator) at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, the team generated billions of neutrinos...."

So, Assuming Astronomy is correct, the zing ring at Fermi Lab is the most powerful, not CERN. MY ERROR /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Hale_Bopp
2002-Mar-05, 12:55 PM
Fermilab's accelerator is capable of producing proton and anti-proton beams with an energy of 1 TeV (1000 GeV). If memory serves, the LHC that they are currently building at CERN will be capable of producing energies of 7TeV when it comes online. The SSC I believe was going to produce beams of 40TeV, obviously, way ahead of its time.

A new main injector was just commissioned at Fermilab. Although it didn't increase the energy of the beam, when it is fully calibrated, it shoud allow them to produce 10 times as many collisions as before, increasing the chances of detecting rare events.

When I was in college, a guy gave a talk on the construction of the SSC. With its high energy, he said it would be, "Powerful enough to produce God in pairs." (NOTE : Please don't start a religious flame war over this old joke /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

Russ
2002-Mar-05, 04:08 PM
On 2002-03-05 07:55, Hale_Bopp wrote:
Fermilab's accelerator is capable of producing proton and anti-proton beams with an energy of 1 TeV (1000 GeV).
Rob

Sounds like you've been on the tour more reciently than I. I use to live not far from Aurora in Lisle, IL. (78 to 92). I used to fish in the ring pond at Fermi Lab and feed corn to the bison babies. Do you ever go there?

Hale_Bopp
2002-Mar-05, 05:34 PM
Yep...I go to Fermilab every day...I am a high school physics teacher on leave for a year with a fellowship at Fermilab. I am in the Experimental Astrophysics Group working on the Sloan Digital Sky Survey.

You know how middle aged men go to baseball fantasy camps where they get to live like baseball players for a week? Well, this is my version of a fantasy camp...the ultimate astrogeek fantasy camp /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

Russ
2002-Mar-05, 07:20 PM
On 2002-03-05 12:34, Hale_Bopp wrote:
Yep...I go to Fermilab every day...I am a high school physics teacher on leave for a year with a fellowship at Fermilab. I am in the Experimental Astrophysics Group working on the Sloan Digital Sky Survey.

You know how middle aged men go to baseball fantasy camps where they get to live like baseball players for a week? Well, this is my version of a fantasy camp...the ultimate astrogeek fantasy camp /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

I don't doubt your description a bit. In the early 80's (can't remember exact yr.) I worked on the controls for the power utilities out there. I got to look at the ring and some of the test cells a little closer than the average guy. Fantasy camp for me too.

I don't know if he's still there but my next door neighbor (from Lisle) worked at Fermi. Dr. Freeman (first name stubbornly refuses to come out of long term memory). If you get a chance to look for him, he'd stand out a little as he's the dead spitting image of the old folk singer Paul Simon. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Bob
2002-Mar-05, 07:58 PM
Last summer the CERN director okayed the demolition of their collider to make room for the much more powerful Large Hadron Collider to be available in 2006. I believe this makes Fermilab the most powerful collider presently in use.
The CERN decision was a tough one. A group there thought they were getting data indicating discovery of the Higgs boson (the God particle) and they just needed a little more time. They were granted a couple of months but it wasn't enough and delay in starting construction was busting the budget, so they had to pull the plug.

Chip
2002-Mar-05, 08:27 PM
On 2002-03-05 07:37, Russ quoted from the April issue of Astronomy Magazine: "With the Tevatron accelerator (the world's most energetic particle accelerator) at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, the team generated billions of neutrinos...."


Hi Russ,

I was wondering (from so far having read just the quote rather than the article,) how could neutrinos - which are ghostly neutral particles without a charge, and practically massless, be artificially generated in Illinois? The sun and other stars are massive neutrino sources. Cosmic rays can interact with them, yet they sail through the earth (and us) with "ease". I wonder how the people at Batavia can generate them by the "billions."

Chip

Hale_Bopp
2002-Mar-05, 09:03 PM
Well, Russ may be able to provide more details about neutrino production, but at Fermilab's MiniBOONE experiment, protons are fired from the main injector (energy about 150 GeV) into a target. Proton collisions with the target produce pions. Pions are short lived particles and one of the decay products is a neutrino.

That is a pretty quick explanation.

Rob

Chip
2002-Mar-05, 10:01 PM
On 2002-03-05 16:03, Hale_Bopp wrote:
"...Proton collisions with the target produce pions. Pions are short lived particles and one of the decay products is a neutrino."


Thanks.
So could neutrinos also result naturally through random cosmic ray collisions, as well as deep within stars?

On a lighter note, I recall a Star Trek episode where one of the characters generated a "neutrino beam" from a lab on the ship. (Though I don't know what effect such a thing would actually have on any matter.)

Chip

Roy Batty
2002-Mar-05, 10:17 PM
On 2002-03-05 17:01, Chip wrote:

On a lighter note, I recall a Star Trek episode where one of the characters generated a "neutrino beam" from a lab on the ship. (Though I don't know what effect such a thing would actually have on any matter.)

Chip


The matter of successfully resolving an episode by ingenous use of new beams/particles/energies of course! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Chuck
2002-Mar-05, 11:13 PM
LaForge can see neutrinos with his visor. He once found his way to a beam up point by seeing the neutrino beacon beamed down from The Enterprise.

Chip
2002-Mar-05, 11:30 PM
On 2002-03-05 18:13, Chuck wrote:
LaForge can see neutrinos with his visor. He once found his way to a beam up point by seeing the neutrino beacon beamed down from The Enterprise.


If Riker were lost on one side of a planet, with special goggles for seeing neutrinos, and LaForge were lost directly opposite him on the other side - and the Enterprise was using a "neutrino beam" to first signal LaForge, Riker might get confused, as he'd see the beam on his side too. (Since neutrinos would go right through the planet without leaving a mark.) (Worf wouldn't get confused. He'd just fire a phaser up at the ship.) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Roy Batty
2002-Mar-06, 12:05 AM
Lol! liked the way you got it back on topic too /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Chip
2002-Mar-06, 03:38 AM
On 2002-03-05 17:17, Roy Batty wrote:
The matter of successfully resolving an episode by ingenous use of new beams/particles/energies of course! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Right. They do seem to solve a lot of their problems with "beams" on that show!

Anyway, here's another silly question from me. If they can create billions of neutrinos as described above, why do they need to still go down in mine shafts and wait a long while beside large tanks of Clorox for traces of a few neutrinos to zip by? Is there a difference between "solar neutrinos" and laboratory generated neutrinos?

Chip

Chuck
2002-Mar-06, 04:15 AM
They have to go deep to screen out other particles such as cosmic rays.

SAMU
2002-Mar-06, 08:09 AM
As a partial answer to the question regarding the difference between natural particles and laboratory particles. Using the "Oh my god" partical as an example. IT's collision with the upper aptmosphere was detected from a hundred miles or more through a telescope and its existence deduced from the observation (assuming the observers watched all their Ps and Qs). Imagine if it had occurred in a 72 inch thick pile of super sensitive photographic emulsion and the emulsion were sliced into .0001" thick slices and viewed through a microscope.

The byproducts of that collision and
that pile of emulsion would be studied for the next thousand years and would answer fundamental questions of physics for as long.

SAMU

Roy Batty
2002-Mar-06, 10:16 AM
On 2002-03-05 22:38, Chip wrote:

Anyway, here's another silly question from me. If they can create billions of neutrinos as described above, why do they need to still go down in mine shafts and wait a long while beside large tanks of Clorox for traces of a few neutrinos to zip by? Is there a difference between "solar neutrinos" and laboratory generated neutrinos?

Chip


Is one reason that they want to measure the amount/nature of the neutrinos coming from the sun etc?

Russ
2002-Mar-06, 05:55 PM
On 2002-03-05 15:27, Chip wrote:
Hi Russ,

I was wondering (from so far having read just the quote rather than the article,) how could neutrinos - which are ghostly neutral particles without a charge, and practically massless, be artificially generated in Illinois? The sun and other stars are massive neutrino sources. Cosmic rays can interact with them, yet they sail through the earth (and us) with "ease". I wonder how the people at Batavia can generate them by the "billions."

Chip

I can't tell you as the article doesn't go into any detail. The article is actually about something else (cosmological kinks) and just happened to have that one little blurb about the Fermi Lab accelerator that proved me wrong about the CERN accelerator. So, at least in this case, ignorance prevales. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif