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View Full Version : What will become of Jupiters spot?



Neverfly
2007-Sep-23, 11:36 AM
To the best of my knowledge, the Great Red Spot of Jupiter is not, in fact, Cliffords cousin, but a storm the size of three planet Earths.
Nor is Spot on a leash-It is moving around the belt. It is not fixed in one spot (I'm not trying to be punny...)

Ok, so this storm... What is going to become of it? Storms on Earth dissapate over time and new ones form. I've observed other storms on Jupiter come and go. So why is the Great Red Spot so long lived and humongous?
Will it eventually dissipate? If so- How long will it take? Why doesn't it follow form with a Hurricane in itsappearance in spite of other similarities? I don't see an eye in the storm.

WaxRubiks
2007-Sep-23, 12:43 PM
I saw a program about it once and it seems that the storm is continuously "fed" so will never die while there is enough energy in the weather system.

It is my bet that there are similar spots on other gas giants around the Universe.

KaiYeves
2007-Sep-23, 06:14 PM
A book I read said that it will be there "If not forever, then at least as long as humans are there to watch it."

korjik
2007-Sep-23, 07:41 PM
To the best of my knowledge, the Great Red Spot of Jupiter is not, in fact, Cliffords cousin, but a storm the size of three planet Earths.
Nor is Spot on a leash-It is moving around the belt. It is not fixed in one spot (I'm not trying to be punny...)

Ok, so this storm... What is going to become of it? Storms on Earth dissapate over time and new ones form. I've observed other storms on Jupiter come and go. So why is the Great Red Spot so long lived and humongous?
Will it eventually dissipate? If so- How long will it take? Why doesn't it follow form with a Hurricane in itsappearance in spite of other similarities? I don't see an eye in the storm.

We cant really make any accurate predictions on what is happening with the great red spot. Mostly cause we dont know the conditions in Jupiter's atmo well enough to do any modelling. All we can see is the top of the storm and since that hasnt changed much in the entire time we have been able to see it, we dont really know what is happening or why.

Neverfly
2007-Sep-23, 07:47 PM
We cant really make any accurate predictions on what is happening with the great red spot. Mostly cause we dont know the conditions in Jupiter's atmo well enough to do any modelling. All we can see is the top of the storm and since that hasnt changed much in the entire time we have been able to see it, we dont really know what is happening or why.

Sadly, from the threads about the Great Red Spot here on BAUT and many other references on the web, that was my conclusion too.
We just don't know much.

KaiYeves
2007-Sep-23, 11:25 PM
We just don't know much.
Yet if not for those words, what would science be for?

Neverfly
2007-Sep-23, 11:32 PM
Edited

Yet if not for those words, what would science be for? (I am a wise KaiYeves)

;)

mugaliens
2007-Sep-26, 04:23 PM
Perhaps Saturn could take Spot home...

John Mendenhall
2007-Sep-26, 06:39 PM
Perhaps Saturn could take Spot home...

Get thee to a punnery.

Kaptain K
2007-Sep-27, 10:53 AM
Not that it matters much, but one difference between the Great Red Spot and (earthly) hurricanes is that the GRS is a high pressure system.

Sticks
2007-Sep-27, 11:10 AM
Maybe we can send it some acne cream? :)

jlhredshift
2007-Sep-27, 12:53 PM
Well, Velikovsky thought he knew what caused the GRS, but the celestial mechanics threw a wrench in that one.:lol::whistle::confused::surprised

KaiYeves
2007-Sep-28, 12:57 AM
He was moving at too high a Veliokity to think straight. ;-)

Jerry
2007-Sep-28, 05:49 PM
Our earthly experience with storm systems is that they change. When great spot junior formed and migrated towards daddy, is would be computationally rational for the senior spot to fall victim to the increased shear rates and die.

One gets to wonder if there is some relationship between the spot and Jupiter's equally strange powerful radio emissions - brighter than the sun.

The great spot remains a great mystery.

Robert Tulip
2007-Oct-06, 12:55 PM
Does anyone know, is there any similarity between Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the high pressure systems which sit over warm water in the Indian and Pacific Oceans?

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/Correlation/ plots atmospheric maps. http://www.jisao.washington.edu/pdo/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_decadal_oscillation discuss the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. http://www.jamstec.go.jp/frsgc/research/d1/iod/ is on the Indian Ocean Dipole.

Jerry
2007-Oct-08, 08:06 PM
Well, it would imply a surface with a hot spot; which is not reasonable if this gas giant is gas, as advertised.

Otherwise, both the spot on jupiter and earthly highs rotate consistent with the cornwalrus effect. The Jupiter spot does not appear to be seasonal.

Kaptain K
2007-Oct-08, 08:48 PM
...the cornwalrus effect.
Did you mean the Coriolis effect?

Robert Tulip
2007-Oct-09, 12:15 AM
the spot on jupiter and earthly highs rotate consistent with the [coriolis] effect.

This wiki picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mslp-jja-djf.png shows the average pressure and location of the oceanic highs on earth. My question, recognising physical differences, is whether these terrestrial high pressure systems have similar stability to the Great Red Spot, and so, are they stable features of the earth when observed from space? I can't find anything more specific on the internet than the linked picture.

phaishazamkhan
2007-Oct-09, 01:58 AM
...cornwalrus...

That is a superb username. I wish I hadn't already registered here.

The_Radiation_Specialist
2007-Oct-09, 02:14 AM
Storms will always be on every planet with atmosphere because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_ball_theorem).


the Hairy Ball Theorem dictates that, given at least some wind on Earth , there must at all times be a cyclone somewhere. Note that the eye can be arbitrarily large or small and the magnitude of the wind surrounding it is irrelevant.

I always thought it was interesting that a topological concept can swirl its way into a meteorological application. :)

Neverfly
2007-Oct-09, 02:15 AM
I must consult the Squirrel Overlords on this startling revelation.
Will return shortly.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-09, 07:26 AM
Can the nuts be able to live and grow in Jupiter?


:think:

Neverfly
2007-Oct-09, 07:52 AM
Can the nuts be able to live and grow in Jupiter?


:think:

With proper management.
However in that location, red squirrels may be necessary...

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-09, 07:54 AM
Ok, so this storm... What is going to become of it? Storms on Earth dissapate over time and new ones form. I've observed other storms on Jupiter come and go. So why is the Great Red Spot so long lived and humongous?

Will it eventually dissipate? If so- How long will it take? Why doesn't it follow form with a Hurricane in its appearance in spite of other similarities? I don't see an eye in the storm.

The GRB is so long "lived" and humongous because it is the best storm in the solar system--that is, it has the best design--and the design of a thing is the theory about how the thing works. It evolved in a sort of ecosystem composed of rival storms. The storms compete for energy; the smaller ones lose their identity when they get "eaten" by the bigger ones. The competition is rather similar to the process of natural selection in biology: there is variation in storms, the best varieties survive.

Probably, the GRB was formed as a fusion of two or three of the biggest storms. Their combined energy was probably enough to tap into a deeper, probably hotter layer of the atmosphere that exists beneath the visible layer, but, for whatever reason, doesn't mix with. This is evidenced by the fact that the GRB is red. So, the GRB is able to tap into the nuclear forces of the inner layers that are ordinarily unavailable to the surface storms that are primarily driven by solar energy. The situation would be analogous to one of those "smoker" ecosystems that are totally chemotrophic and that then grew a big reef big enough to extend into the photosynthetic zone ordinarily observable by humans.

There's no "eye" because the air sucked up from the lower layers is opaque, whereas the air sucked up through the eye of a hurricane is transparent.

Eventually, a crisis will occur--perhaps the GRB will deplete it lower level resources. More likely, the circulation of the bands that seem to keep the rotation of the GRB orderly will shift. The rotation pattern of the GRB will then become more chaotic, and it will split into two or three smaller storms. These, however, will no longer have the power to tap into the lower layer. They will retain their red color for a while, but then the redness would eventually smear into the background and the GRB will have lost its identity.

R.A.F.
2007-Oct-09, 01:28 PM
I see that "I'm taking my toys and going elsewhere" didn't last for long...

...or was that just for that one ATM thread?

Michael Noonan
2007-Oct-09, 05:00 PM
I see that "I'm taking my toys and going elsewhere" didn't last for long...

...or was that just for that one ATM thread?
Well thank goodness for that, good to see you on these other sections.


Eventually, a crisis will occur--perhaps the GRB will deplete it lower level resources. More likely, the circulation of the bands that seem to keep the rotation of the GRB orderly will shift. The rotation pattern of the GRB will then become more chaotic, and it will split into two or three smaller storms. These, however, will no longer have the power to tap into the lower layer. They will retain their red color for a while, but then the redness would eventually smear into the background and the GRB will have lost its identity.

I find all these ideas very useful as there is a such great deal of science that thoughts should come from so many very good sources.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-09, 06:49 PM
I see that "I'm taking my toys and going elsewhere" didn't last for long...

...or was that just for that one ATM thread?

We'll see about that. . . .

But since you brought it up, no, I won't be starting any ATM threads in the future, and I would not recommend anyone else with an original, creative idea to post there either; even if you manage to escape being bannned, the entire setup is structurally guaranteed to not be any fun.


Well thank goodness for that, good to see you on these other sections.

I find all these ideas very useful as there is a such great deal of science that thoughts should come from so many very good sources.
Thank you! :D

Robert Tulip
2007-Oct-09, 11:02 PM
Storms on Earth dissipate over time and new ones form. I've observed other storms on Jupiter come and go. So why is the Great Red Spot so long lived and humongous? Will it eventually dissipate? If so- How long will it take? Why doesn't it follow form with a Hurricane in its appearance in spite of other similarities? I don't see an eye in the storm.

one difference between the Great Red Spot and (earthly) hurricanes is that the GRS is a high pressure system.

So, as an anti-cyclone (high pressure system) the GRS (GRB?) should not have an eye. It is therefore more like earthly systems located over the big oceans. Surely this is an area where astronomical knowledge can productively link with atmospheric science? As I asked at:
Does anyone know, is there any similarity between Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the high pressure systems which sit over warm water in the Indian and Pacific Oceans? http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/Correlation/ plots atmospheric maps. http://www.jisao.washington.edu/pdo/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_decadal_oscillation discuss the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. http://www.jamstec.go.jp/frsgc/research/d1/iod/ is on the Indian Ocean Dipole.
A better reference is

This wiki picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mslp-jja-djf.png shows the average pressure and location of the oceanic highs on earth. My question, recognising physical differences, is whether these terrestrial high pressure systems have similar stability to the Great Red Spot, and so, are they stable features of the earth when observed from space?
And a little more on this intriguing topic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtropical_ridge explains that “The subtropical ridge is a large belt of high pressure situated around 30ºN in the Northern Hemisphere and 30ºS in the Southern Hemisphere. It is characterized by mostly calm winds. Air flows out from its center toward the upper and lower latitudes of each hemisphere, creating both the trade winds and the westerlies." This looks rather like (adjusting for gas giant status) Jupiter’s spot. I imagine Earth’s continents make our air systems much more stable than those of Jove.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-10, 11:17 PM
So, as an anti-cyclone (high pressure system) the GRS (GRB?) should not have an eye. It is therefore more like earthly systems located over the big oceans. Surely this is an area where astronomical knowledge can productively link with atmospheric science?
Robert, I think you might be wrong about what systems on Earth the GRB is analogous to. It is really more analogous to Earth-based hurricanes, than Earth based high pressure systems. You can read more about it here (http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/65704-great-red-spot-low-pressure-system.html).

mugaliens
2007-Oct-11, 11:23 AM
Not that it matters much, but one difference between the Great Red Spot and (earthly) hurricanes is that the GRS is a high pressure system.

Hurricanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane)are low-pressure systems as follows:


A tropical cyclone's primary energy source is the release of the heat of condensation from water vapor condensing at high altitudes, with solar heating being the initial source for evaporation. Therefore, a tropical cyclone can be visualized as a giant vertical heat engine supported by mechanics driven by physical forces such as the rotation and gravity of the Earth.

By contrast, Jupiter's GRS is a eddy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_%28fluid_dynamics%29)caused by the interaction of two bands of gases on Jupiter moving at different velocities relative to one another. How many spots you get is related to the relative velocities of the bands - the greater the relative velocity, the more the eddies. It's merely a function of turbulent flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulent_flow).

The TV show, Ed, Ed, and Eddie has a fair amount of velocity, thus turbulence...

Neverfly
2007-Oct-11, 02:28 PM
Hurricanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane)are low-pressure systems as follows:



By contrast, Jupiter's GRS is a eddy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_%28fluid_dynamics%29)caused by the interaction of two bands of gases on Jupiter moving at different velocities relative to one another. How many spots you get is related to the relative velocities of the bands - the greater the relative velocity, the more the eddies. It's merely a function of turbulent flow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulent_flow).

The TV show, Ed, Ed, and Eddie has a fair amount of velocity, thus turbulence...


I like Ed, Edd and Eddie.

And I agree. From my research and observations of the Great Red Spot, I don't believe it is hurricane like. At first glance it may seem like it but on closer inspection, turblulance and fluid mechanics seem better suited to speculate on its nature.

I may have been wrong to ask in the OP about the "eye" of the storm. At this point, I don't think it has one.

mugaliens
2007-Oct-11, 03:28 PM
I may have been wrong to ask in the OP about the "eye" of the storm. At this point, I don't think it has one.

Yeah, old Jove is all one big storm. Might be a few quiet spots, like at the poles.

Jerry
2007-Oct-19, 07:36 PM
By contrast, Jupiter's GRS is a eddy caused by the interaction of two bands of gases on Jupiter moving at different velocities relative to one another. How many spots you get is related to the relative velocities of the bands - the greater the relative velocity, the more the eddies. It's merely a function of turbulent flow.
Aye, and that's the rub.

Follow any eddy in any type of stream and it either 1) Remains stationary about a FIXED feature in the stream, perturbation that causes the eddy. 2) It moves away from the aggravating carbunckle and dissipates downstream. If smaller spots did not regularly appear and then disappear on Jupiter, I would attribute the long life of the GRS to local thermodynamics: cold temperature physics. But Jupiter is not cold, the electromagnetic environment is not understood, and the spot stays.

Ergo it appears more likely to me that underneath all of that gas, there is a solid magnetic core moving with the same rotational moment as the spot, that either creates a hotspot, an electromagnetic eddy (The Atlantic magnetic anomally?), or there is an even odder underlying physical feature.

If the spot dries up and blows away, I get to change my answer.

3dknight
2007-Oct-21, 11:52 PM
Is there a satellite that they are working on to observe the spot more closely?

Kaptain K
2007-Oct-22, 04:48 AM
No, but you can bet that it will be well studied by the next Jupiter probe (whenever that may be).

astromark
2007-Oct-22, 06:07 AM
This does not belong here. So ignore it if that bothers you. Could the great red spot be a moon. locked in orbit inside the gas giants atmosphere. It just seems hard to believe its just a 'eddy' What does a infrared image show, X-ray?

Kaptain K
2007-Oct-22, 06:33 AM
This does not belong here. So ignore it if that bothers you. Could the great red spot be a moon. locked in orbit inside the gas giants atmosphere.
No! For the same reason that a moon cannot "orbit" inside the Earth's atmosphere.


It just seems hard to believe its just a 'eddy' What does a infrared image show
eddy


X-ray?
eddy

astromark
2007-Oct-22, 07:07 AM
If it were equatorial I could argue...but its not so I can't... Thanks for putting me to rest gently Kaptain K. Its just a gaseous anomaly in the atmosphere of Jupiter. A eddy.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-22, 11:50 AM
Aye, and that's the rub.

. . .

Ergo it appears more likely to me that underneath all of that gas, there is a solid magnetic core moving with the same rotational moment as the spot, that either creates a hotspot, an electromagnetic eddy (The Atlantic magnetic anomally?), or there is an even odder underlying physical feature.

If the spot dries up and blows away, I get to change my answer.



Thanks for putting me to rest gently Kaptain K. Its just a gaseous anomaly in the atmosphere of Jupiter. A eddy.


eddy

eddy
You all keep insisting on calling the GRS a mere eddy, probably because eddies are mere passive entities that depend on other features of the environment for their creation and maintenance. This limits the range of hypotheses you are willing to consider--thus you run the risk of not considering the truth.

Hurricanes on the other hand--although they depend on their environment (as do all living organinsms)--have a certain autonomy, or power, such that they are able to turn the tables in their own favor. Perhaps there's something intrinsic to the GRS itself that explains its longevity.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-22, 10:09 PM
Aye, and that's the rub.

Follow any eddy in any type of stream and it either 1) Remains stationary about a FIXED feature in the stream, perturbation that causes the eddy. 2) It moves away from the aggravating carbunckle and dissipates downstream. If smaller spots did not regularly appear and then disappear on Jupiter, I would attribute the long life of the GRS to local thermodynamics: cold temperature physics. But Jupiter is not cold, the electromagnetic environment is not understood, and the spot stays.

Ergo it appears more likely to me that underneath all of that gas, there is a solid magnetic core moving with the same rotational moment as the spot, that either creates a hotspot, an electromagnetic eddy (The Atlantic magnetic anomally?), or there is an even odder underlying physical feature.

If the spot dries up and blows away, I get to change my answer.

But the spot moves relative to the magnetic field!

Robert Tulip
2007-Oct-22, 11:10 PM
Jupiter's GRS is a eddy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_%28fluid_dynamics%29)...

A current Against the Mainstream thread argues that the GRS is a low pressure system, and that this claim is proved by teleology. To my rather uninformed reading, Mugalien's description of it here as an eddy looks intuitively more likely. I could not follow Warren's teleological argument at all.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-22, 11:24 PM
You quote mugaliens, but this is what he actually wrote:



What results? You [Warren Platts] have a hypothesis that does not appear to be inconsistent with observations, but it has yet to be experimentally verified. I would say it's a bit too early to be patting yourself on the back about the efficacy of your teleological methods.


Actually, CodeSlinger, except for this:




That is why the GRS is the best vortex in the solar system: it is able to "mine" its own energy. The reason hurricanes and tornados eventually peter out is that the supply of warm, low level air dries up. The GRS makes its own warm, low level air.

WarrenPlatts hit the nail on the proverbial head.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-22, 11:43 PM
(snip)
Hurricanes on the other hand--although they depend on their environment (as do all living organinsms)--have a certain autonomy, or power, such that they are able to turn the tables in their own favor. Perhaps there's something intrinsic to the GRS itself that explains its longevity.

This sounds like you are suggesting large storms are intelligent. Or alive.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-23, 01:36 AM
This sounds like you are suggesting large storms are intelligent. Or alive.But of course, sir! :D

tusenfem
2007-Oct-23, 10:32 AM
This limits the range of hypotheses you are willing to consider--thus you run the risk of not considering the truth.


says the person insisting on his on hypothesis and not opening up to other possibilities

John Mendenhall
2007-Oct-23, 02:45 PM
Not that it matters much, but one difference between the Great Red Spot and (earthly) hurricanes is that the GRS is a high pressure system.

W. Platt makes a pretty good argument for the GRS to be a hurricane style low pressure system on ATM, but teleological? I'll have to look at it again.

Ok, I looked. Big deal, telelogy or magicology, I think Warren has a good idea. I don't regard it as proven, but it's worth investigating. As far as obscuring an underlying cyclone with an overlying layer of anticyclone clouds, Jupiter's intense gravity and resulting high pressures (and chemistry) should be taken into consideration. It wouldn't take much to produce an opaque anticyclonic layer.