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3dknight
2007-Oct-17, 12:54 AM
I was watching this video in my science class it was talking about a chip to put in a totally paralyzed person. This chip will read your thoughts and wirelessly command a robotic arm, computer... to fufill your command. To do this they have to map out the langauge of our neurons or langauge of our thoughts. How long do you think this will take? how effective would this be?

Van Rijn
2007-Oct-17, 01:05 AM
If the purpose is to control a robotic arm, apparently, that can be pretty effective with implanted electrodes:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4262.html

But it's going to be some time before they would do that to a healthy person that doesn't strictly need it. Admittedly, I'd like to have a direct brain/computer control interface, though even I would want a bit more testing first. :)

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 01:18 AM
If the purpose is to control a robotic arm, apparently, that can be pretty effective with implanted electrodes:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4262.html

But it's going to be some time before they would do that to a healthy person that doesn't strictly need it. Admittedly, I'd like to have a direct brain/computer control interface, though even I would want a bit more testing first. :)

I can't help but think of Ghost in the Shell.

In this science fiction series, inplants are common. Human interface with machines is the norm.

Hackers are able to hack into brains and corrupt thoughts, read minds, adjust memories and distort reasoning.

If ever a future of cybernetic implants with computer interface came about- Count me out. My body has taken shrapnel, two bullets, multiple knife cuts and a stab and a whole lot of beating. It's managed to not let me down yet.
I trust it.
When the day comes that my body knows it's time to shut down- it is my time to go.

Van Rijn
2007-Oct-17, 01:29 AM
I can't help but think of Ghost in the Shell.

In this science fiction series, inplants are common. Human interface with machines is the norm.

Hackers are able to hack into brains and corrupt thoughts, read minds, adjust memories and distort reasoning.

If ever a future of cybernetic implants with computer interface came about- Count me out. My body has taken shrapnel, two bullets, multiple knife cuts and a stab and a whole lot of beating. It's managed to not let me down yet.
I trust it.
When the day comes that my body knows it's time to shut down- it is my time to go.


Well, there's quite a large gap between the type of implant I'm talking about and "Ghost in the Shell." It turns out that a relatively small number of electrodes can get a good read of the neurons, so that a monkey (or a human) can fairly quickly learn to accurately move a robot arm instead of a real arm. With a bit more work, you can get it so you don't actually move the real arm at the same time. The obvious extension of this would be to "mentally" control a keyboard or something similar. So, output could be pretty effective, and could be like walking around with a virtual keyboard, always available.

Input to the brain, however, is a whole different issue. Visual input with displays in something that looks like glasses are certainly possible today, and eventually you might work that into some type of super contacts. Audio is pretty obvious too (Earbuds, anyone?). But we aren't anywhere near taking over the function of the brain, or implanted memories. The closest you'd get with this type of implant is really fast access to google.

And that's what I'd like: It wouldn't be all that different than what you could do today with a portable computer and a cell phone - just less obvious. It would be technological telepathy and easy direct computer control, but no brain hacking.

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-17, 02:35 AM
There are quite a few people with chips in there eyes for overcoming blindness. At the moment it is all experimental work and while the results are much better than being blind, their sight is nothing like what a normal functioning eyeball provides and the people are still legally blind. It will probably be at least three years before any of the procedures start to move into mainstream medicine.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-17, 02:48 AM
This brain has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.

3dknight
2007-Oct-17, 04:06 AM
If ever a future of cybernetic implants with computer interface came about- Count me out. My body has taken shrapnel, two bullets, multiple knife cuts and a stab and a whole lot of beating. It's managed to not let me down yet.
I trust it.
When the day comes that my body knows it's time to shut down- it is my time to go.

You can only be a couple of things for this to happen to you superman, a gangster, a part of the mafia, in a very bad bar fight, a raiders fan of the football team, live in China and the chinese government tortured you, a terrorist, a really bad misunderstanding with the wrong people, a drive by and they beat you up because you looked like the guy they where after but they never bothered to take a good look at your face, went crazy and challenged a cop to a shoot out when all you had was squirt gun in your pocket, your a cop and accidentally shoot yourself in the foot, you traveled outside of your country and the airport people stripped searched then decided you had something to hide even though they check every single pocket and socks and shoes and lugguage, an ancient brotherhood thought you where trying to mix religion with science and tried to murder you but they failed, you where an assassin and got into a deadly fight but ended up winning, a secret organization that runs the U.S. (without anyone knowing) and brainwashes people to do there dirty work when you found out what they where doing they decided it was your time, or you didn't pay taxes. Pick your favorite one?:lol:

3dknight
2007-Oct-17, 04:11 AM
The wireless chip in how would it be charged if its in your brain?

mfumbesi
2007-Oct-17, 06:45 AM
My body has taken shrapnel, two bullets, multiple knife cuts and a stab and a whole lot of beating. It's managed to not let me down yet.
Avatar are so misleading. I fancied you as a nerd, the never left the house variety (I kid, I kid)

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 08:14 AM
You can only be a couple of things for this to happen to you superman, a gangster, a part of the mafia, in a very bad bar fight, a raiders fan of the football team, live in China and the chinese government tortured you, a terrorist, a really bad misunderstanding with the wrong people, a drive by and they beat you up because you looked like the guy they where after but they never bothered to take a good look at your face, went crazy and challenged a cop to a shoot out when all you had was squirt gun in your pocket, your a cop and accidentally shoot yourself in the foot, you traveled outside of your country and the airport people stripped searched then decided you had something to hide even though they check every single pocket and socks and shoes and lugguage, an ancient brotherhood thought you where trying to mix religion with science and tried to murder you but they failed, you where an assassin and got into a deadly fight but ended up winning, a secret organization that runs the U.S. (without anyone knowing) and brainwashes people to do there dirty work when you found out what they where doing they decided it was your time, or you didn't pay taxes. Pick your favorite one?:lol:

That's more than a couple:neutral:
Soldier US Army...
Previous to that... Only white guy in a crip and XIV blood run hood...

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 08:16 AM
Avatar are so misleading. I fancied you as a nerd, the never left the house variety (I kid, I kid)

Ironic, as I specifically picked that avatar because of all the darkness I have seen that haunts my soul.

You may or may not notice my posts appear here just about anytime within a 24 hour period.

Sleep is for those who have not seen what I have...

Like old friends, the eyes- the faces of those ...

mfumbesi
2007-Oct-17, 09:09 AM
I didn't mean to offend you. I was just pulling your leg.(you can also add that....had leg pulled by a tribal african dude) I am still joking.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 09:13 AM
I didn't mean to offend you. I was just pulling your leg.(you can also add that....had leg pulled by a tribal african dude) I am still joking.

I know. I'm not offended.
I really said too much there.
Don't think any more of it;)

ASEI
2007-Oct-17, 10:06 AM
I think all this cybernetic stuff is cool. I'd love to be able to cure paralysis. (edit: I'd love for our doctors to be able to cure paralysis - I doubt anyone would want me standing over them with a scalpel squinting at an anatomy textbook) Quadrapeligia is a nightmare, and even if all you could do is give them the ability to manipulate a mouse or keyboard (like in some of the experiments I've read articles about) it's still a massive liberation from total dependence. (Once you have control over a computer, it can be extended to any number of specialized automated services, not to mention providing an extraordinary amount of freedom in it's own right).

Curing blindness, while more complicated, is no less miraculous, IMO.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 10:20 AM
This brain has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.

If Microsoft provides the goods for brain interface, we are indeed all doomed...


Originally Posted by ASEI:
Quadrapeligia is a nightmare, and even if all you could do is give them the ability to manipulate a mouse or keyboard (like in some of the experiments I've read articles about) it's still a massive liberation from total dependence. (Once you have control over a computer, it can be extended to any number of specialized automated services, not to mention providing an extraordinary amount of freedom in it's own right).

Curing blindness, while more complicated, is no less miraculous, IMO.

There was another thread here about a potential Olympian with no legs. He had spring like paddles that he ran on.

These medical marvels are almost as impressive as human spirit...

mfumbesi
2007-Oct-17, 11:49 AM
If Microsoft provides the goods for brain interface, we are indeed all doomed...
If its Apple we are still doomed.......thoughts routed through AT&...else the device is locked (and brain).

Doodler
2007-Oct-17, 12:26 PM
There are quite a few people with chips in there eyes for overcoming blindness. At the moment it is all experimental work and while the results are much better than being blind, their sight is nothing like what a normal functioning eyeball provides and the people are still legally blind. It will probably be at least three years before any of the procedures start to move into mainstream medicine.

I know a woman who had cochlear implants put in a month or so ago that restored her hearing after almost 20 years. While its not perfect hearing, its enough that she can hear her daughter's voice clearly enough to hold a conversation, so while its a young science, it has traction, and will continue to progress.

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-17, 12:30 PM
The wireless chip in how would it be charged if its in your brain?

There is a guy who has had electrodes planted in his brain to try to give him sight (well the ability to see something) but mostly they go in the eye and I know there is at least one is powered by light entering the eye. And I think there is one that needs superbright light to work, which is a bit of a drawback.

Mister Earl
2007-Oct-17, 02:16 PM
Not to mention the human brain has a remarkable capacity to take new input and turn it into another "sense". I read a story not too long ago, where a man wore a belt ringed by pager vibrators. Whichever one was facing closest to north would vibrate, kind of like a belt-compass. After a while, the vibrations would become sub-sensory (Not sure if that is the correct term. He just wasn't aware of the vibrations), and he realized he had an uncanny knack for driving around randomly, and knowing exactly where he was, and could even point in the direction of his house and give you a rough estimate of how many miles it was.

Incredible.

3dknight
2007-Oct-17, 11:38 PM
That's more than a couple
Soldier US Army...
Previous to that... Only white guy in a crip and XIV blood run hood...

See this is why white guys aren't supposed to live in some area:lol:


Ironic, as I specifically picked that avatar because of all the darkness I have seen that haunts my soul.

You may or may not notice my posts appear here just about anytime within a 24 hour period.

Sleep is for those who have not seen what I have...

Like old friends, the eyes- the faces of those ...

A little overdramatic don't you think. This reminds me of a person trying to exterminate lets say vampires because killed his family.:p

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 12:39 AM
I could do with a more reliable memory. Some subtitles on certain peoples' speech, and maybe a few scroll-over name reminders ID'ed by facial recognition (I'm terrible with names.)

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-18, 12:49 AM
My body has taken shrapnel, two bullets, multiple knife cuts and a stab and a whole lot of beating. It's managed to not let me down yet.
I trust it.
And here I was thinking I knew you... it's a wierd world out there.
But some guy over in the psychic thread did say that you were the Hulk, so...
Don't smash me!

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 12:49 AM
Emoticons removed:

See this is why white guys aren't supposed to live in some area



A little overdramatic don't you think. This reminds me of a person trying to exterminate lets say vampires because killed his family.

I've been compared to having Blade-like behavior many times.

Overdramatic? I don't think so.
As I'm yping this, I constantly need to remind myself that you are a 13 year old kid that doesn't know any better.

But it's best of you drop this issue. You are severly putting your foot in your mouth. And liable as to end up the only person who ever made it onto my Ignore List.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 12:52 AM
And here I was thinking I knew you... it's a wierd world out there.
But some guy over in the psychic thread did say that you were the Hulk, so...
Don't smash me!

Yeah, this is usually what happens when I open up and admit things.

Now it's too late to go back and delete this crap.

It's a lesson one learns to just keep their mouth shut and avoid the judgments of others.

On top of which people focus on whatever they want to instead of the initial point made.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-18, 01:57 AM
Originally posted by 3dknight
A little overdramatic don't you think. This reminds me of a person trying to exterminate lets say vampires because killed his family.


Originally posted by KaiYeves
And here I was thinking I knew you... it's a wierd world out there.
But some guy over in the psychic thread did say that you were the Hulk, so...
Don't smash me!

You still have a lot to know more about a person or the people around you as you grow older.

Just remember we ALL have a HEART.

3dknight
2007-Oct-18, 03:30 AM
KaiYeves and I where just joking I see Neverfly constantly joking around maybe this isn't the place for a person like me.


As I'm yping this, I constantly need to remind myself that you are a 13 year old kid that doesn't know any better.

See this is why I don't tell people my age they always bring it up or hold it against me. I don't go around and keep telling everyone your age please show me the same respect.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 03:48 AM
KaiYeves and I where just joking I see Neverfly constantly joking around maybe this isn't the place for a person like me.



See this is why I don't tell people my age they always bring it up or hold it against me. I don't go around and keep telling everyone your age please show me the same respect.

Let me be very clear.

Thing one.) There is a time and a place for jokes. Sometimes I make an inappropriate joke too. It is a learning process. We usually learn when someone gets mad or tells us off.
I think I showed a lot of self control given what I know- and the comment you made.

Thing two.) My use of pointing out your age was not a use or holding it against you. Take responsibility for yourself, who and what you are.
I pointed out that your youth was relevent in this. Deal with it.

Thing three.) You were joking and meant no disrespect. This is irrelevent to the fact that you unknowingly tread on very sensitive ground and were disrespectful.
A little extra thought on your part would have prevented that. Learn the lesson from it and go on a little wiser.
As far as me not showing you respect by stating your age... You posted your age on open forum. As have I. there is no disrespect there.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 05:08 AM
Okay, there's private messages for private matters, that's why they're called private.

3dknight
2007-Oct-18, 05:41 AM
good point.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 05:57 AM
Okay, there's private messages for private matters, that's why they're called private.

Not if we are cyborgs.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 05:59 AM
Not if we are cyborgs.

Just the opposite, if we're cyborgs with direct-brain interface, you could have a truly private conversation in a crowded room, just by linking wires.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 06:02 AM
Just the opposite, if we're cyborgs with direct-brain interface, you could have a truly private conversation in a crowded room, just by linking wires.

Into which the FBI and hackers are listening in...

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 06:08 AM
Unless the're standing behind you drilling into your head, no. Can't hack a fiber-optic line between two people.

Van Rijn
2007-Oct-18, 06:11 AM
Into which the FBI and hackers are listening in...

That's already possible, if they're interested. But in this case, you could use encryption, or just use typical text messaging lingo.:)

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 06:36 AM
Unless the're standing behind you drilling into your head, no. Can't hack a fiber-optic line between two people.

I wouldn't put it past them.


Originally Posted by Van Rijn

Originally Posted by Neverfly
Quote:

Into which the FBI and hackers are listening in...

That's already possible, if they're interested. But in this case, you could use encryption, or just use typical text messaging lingo.

I can't even decipher some of that datburned newfangled text lingo:doh:




Oh umm... Some of this post seems to imply I have reason to think the FBI is interested. There is no reason. It's all in fun. You can put away your guns now.

ASEI
2007-Oct-18, 10:48 AM
There's no real reason you can't encrypt any communication to an extent that it couldn't be broken without betrayal of the encryption method and key.

And I see no reason why cyborgs would suddenly cease to value privacy like anyone else.

In free countries we all own PCs that function as tools under our control. They don't go reporting our personal info to anyone unless they've been hacked or infected with some virus or another (or we give it away on some shady web-form). I doubt anyone will be logging the output of a cyborg's motor-cortex - what would any potential snoop possibly do with that information, other than move artificial limbs?

Ilya
2007-Oct-18, 05:42 PM
Well, there's quite a large gap between the type of implant I'm talking about and "Ghost in the Shell." It turns out that a relatively small number of electrodes can get a good read of the neurons, so that a monkey (or a human) can fairly quickly learn to accurately move a robot arm instead of a real arm. With a bit more work, you can get it so you don't actually move the real arm at the same time. The obvious extension of this would be to "mentally" control a keyboard or something similar. So, output could be pretty effective, and could be like walking around with a virtual keyboard, always available.

Input to the brain, however, is a whole different issue. Visual input with displays in something that looks like glasses are certainly possible today, and eventually you might work that into some type of super contacts. Audio is pretty obvious too (Earbuds, anyone?). But we aren't anywhere near taking over the function of the brain, or implanted memories. The closest you'd get with this type of implant is really fast access to google.

And that's what I'd like: It wouldn't be all that different than what you could do today with a portable computer and a cell phone - just less obvious. It would be technological telepathy and easy direct computer control, but no brain hacking.

I want virtual vision as described in Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" and some other recent hard (but not cyberpunk) SF. Have computer-generated information superimpose on my field of vision, with "virtual mouse" controlled by slight movements of a finger. And yes, I would minimize that display before crossing a city street. :)

I actually looked into existing wearable interfaces (http://www.cc.gatech.edu/ccg/publications/starner-everyday-use-061599.pdf), but aside from all bugs of still-experimental technology, they present a problem for me -- I am almost blind in one eye. Using one eye for virtual space and another for real space is not practical for me. I suppose wearable interface will get perfected AND I could get my left eye surgically repaired sooner than true virtual vision... which would be fine except I also want to have such interface underwater...

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-19, 01:05 AM
I wasn't trying to be mean or making a judgement. I'm sorry.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-19, 01:07 AM
I wasn't trying to be mean or making a judgement. I'm sorry.

Try harder;)

Get in touch with your mean side:D

Noclevername
2007-Oct-19, 03:14 AM
I wouldn't put it past them.

Okay, so, you're sitting in a coffee shop with your friend, you link head-gear, and someone walks up and sticks a tap on the line between you. Wouldn't you tend to notice?

Actually, the EM impulses* from the gear in your head might get picked up, but not in a room full of other cyberheads. Too many background emissions. I suppose there may be a way to turn your skull into a Faraday cage or otherwise shield it from emitting non-intentional electromagnetic squeeks and squawks.



*Not radio signals, but from the operating electronics. They can do it now with conventional PCs, I believe.

The Backroad Astronomer
2007-Oct-19, 03:18 AM
Everytime I go past this threa I keep wondering about cyborgs of the past, why nobody gives the credit for smashing those barriers odf prejudice agianst cyborgs.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-19, 03:32 AM
Everytime I go past this threa I keep wondering about cyborgs of the past, why nobody gives the credit for smashing those barriers odf prejudice agianst cyborgs.

Let us honor the primitive cave-cyborgs who came before us. The clockwork cyborgs of old. The Wild West cybercowboys and Victorian steam-powered mechanicals. Unsung heroes of cyborg history, like Rosie the Riveted. And lest we forget, even George Washington with his wooden teeth, our first Augmented-American President.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-19, 03:33 AM
Let us honor the primitive cave-cyborgs who came before us. The clockwork cyborgs of old. The Wild West cybercowboys and Victorian steam-powered mechanicals. Unsung heroes of cyborg history, like Rosie the Riveted. And lest we forget, even George Washington with his wooden teeth, our first Augmented-American President.

Now you got me thinking about "Wild, Wild West"

ASEI
2007-Oct-19, 10:45 AM
Hmm. I wonder if there's a bit of a price problem that will come into play in cybernetics though. Everyone who needs a prosthetic limb or finger or eye implant, ect is likely to need something different and specialized. It might limit the sort of economy of scale that comes into play with electronics, where the massive development cost is amoritized over millions of monitors or chips.

I suppose the population of customers for an artificial eye might be in the tens of thousands, but millions buy PCs, which is why you can get one for <$1000.

eburacum45
2007-Oct-19, 11:08 AM
There are plenty of customers for artificial body parts and neural interfaces; a respectable proportion of the population is differently abled in one way or another. Prosthetic technology will probably proceed in parallel with medical technology so that it will be a race between the development of artificial body parts and artificially grown biological replacements using stem cells and other methods.

If prosthetic technology continues to develop till the replacement parts are better than the biological parts, then some people may choose to have healthy parts replaced by artificial parts. Additionally if direct neural interfacing between a person's central nervous system and a computer or other device becomes commonplace for people who are paralysed or otherwise unable to use normal interfaces, then neural connections will probably become safe and acceptable enough for able people to start using them.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-19, 11:16 AM
I am in need of a prosthetic.

It will probably be a while before we have advanced technogically, however, to synthetically build a brain.

Ilya
2007-Oct-19, 02:20 PM
Okay, so, you're sitting in a coffee shop with your friend, you link head-gear, and someone walks up and sticks a tap on the line between you. Wouldn't you tend to notice?

I would make it hand-gear, not head-gear. Human hands have among the highest nerve density in the body, facilitating interface. Operation to install the said interface would be less extensive, and healing easier. Think metallic tattoos on your fingers instead of firewire plug in your skull. And communication is less obtrusive if you are holding hands instead of stringing a wire.

Mister Earl
2007-Oct-19, 04:48 PM
What, no wireless? Cy-Wi-Fi?

I'd like a math co-processor plugged in, myself. Never hurts to be able to process several million float point operations in your head per second.

Ilya
2007-Oct-19, 05:05 PM
What, no wireless? Cy-Wi-Fi?

Not me. I want control over access at hardware level. I don't even use Bluetooth for that very reason.


I'd like a math co-processor plugged in, myself. Never hurts to be able to process several million float point operations in your head per second.
That I would want also.

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-19, 09:30 PM
Unsung heroes of cyborg history, like Rosie the Riveted.
Yes, and my old friend TEEV. My roomate built him in '81 and used an old Apple monitor as a head. Oh, he was quite the thing then, but now all of those newer models laugh their heads off at him. No respect, these young cyborgs, I tell you.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-19, 10:31 PM
My mom has a prosthetic knee, and my great-aunt has synthetic hips and finger joints. Technically cyborgs.

3dknight
2007-Oct-21, 02:23 AM
My mom has a prosthetic knee, and my great-aunt has synthetic hips and finger joints. Technically cyborgs.

Cool your related to the future!

RalofTyr
2007-Oct-21, 08:01 PM
It is my belief, no vision, that cyborgs will eventually replace humans as the dominate saipen speicies on Earth much as homo sapien sapien, replaced the Neandthal and homo erectus tens of thousands of years ago.

Homo sapien machina.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-21, 08:20 PM
Cyborgs aren't actually a species. Any human could theoretically become a cyborg, and as biotechnology improves, the reverse may also become possible. And after ten generations of being cyborgs, people could still give birth to ordinary humans (Depending on what organic parts they kept, of course!)

Doodler
2007-Oct-22, 04:50 PM
Hmm. I wonder if there's a bit of a price problem that will come into play in cybernetics though. Everyone who needs a prosthetic limb or finger or eye implant, ect is likely to need something different and specialized. It might limit the sort of economy of scale that comes into play with electronics, where the massive development cost is amoritized over millions of monitors or chips.

I suppose the population of customers for an artificial eye might be in the tens of thousands, but millions buy PCs, which is why you can get one for <$1000.

Ehm, the biggest thing that will limit cybernetics is the medical costs associated. A neural interface ain't a boob job. The cost of hardware could come down, given the economics of scale, but docs tend not to charge less the harder you make them work, and the first generation of cyberdocs are going to need LOTS of training, LOTS of equipment, and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of legal posterior coverage in the event of likely snafus during installation and unforseen side effects.

Ilya
2007-Oct-22, 05:41 PM
first generation of cyberdocs are going to need LOTS of training, LOTS of equipment, and LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of legal posterior coverage in the event of likely snafus during installation and unforseen side effects.

Which is why I think it will take off in places like South Korea, which are both less litigious and more open to the idea of mucking with biology, sooner than in US.