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Doodler
2007-Oct-17, 07:11 PM
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1671492,00.html?cnn=yes

Pretty good article on the use of an anasthetic that can wipe the last ten minutes of your memories out. An interesting dilemma, too.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-17, 10:46 PM
Doesn't this belong in the Groping Dentist thread?:doh:

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 12:50 AM
It doesn't seem like the anaesthesiologist was trying to erase her memory, but rather to calm her and prevent a panic. It wasn't a planned event, so I don't really think there was anything to feel guilty about; he made a split-second decision, and what happened happened. Would telling her about it change anything? She ended up finding out about the cancer anyway, so why bother going back to dig up old pain?

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-18, 12:57 AM
The seventh-grade bullying... the photoshoped ghost pic that reduced my pre-skeptic self to cowering mush... the war... the long devision... what RCH stands for... man, I could use that.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-18, 12:59 AM
The seventh-grade bullying... the photoshoped ghost pic that reduced my pre-skeptic self to cowering mush... the war... the long devision... what RCH stands for... man, I could use that.

Huh?

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-18, 01:04 AM
The burning pain in Ellen's arm was due to the rapid application of propofol, a paper-white liquid medication, which the perceptive Dr. Frank had plugged into Ellen's IV the second he heard the c-word. When he saw her reaction, he pushed. The drug, sometimes called "milk of amnesia," stings some patients sharply in the veins, but what it also does is erase your last few minutes. (Think of the "neuralyzer" from the Men in Black movies.) Oh, and it puts you to sleep. An amazing molecule, a great anesthesiologist and a great save.

It's the sudden rush of reaction when the doctor heard about the findings of the Pathologust over the phone while he's doing his procedure.
He didn't intend to do it , but was affected after hearing all the dreams of Ellen , as she talked about her kids , her family and now she is facing cancer.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 01:12 AM
There are times I wish I had a memory eraser. Both for myself and others. Or a rewind button, even better.

Van Rijn
2007-Oct-18, 01:20 AM
Having been through conscious sedation a few times, it is a very strange feeling knowing that some of your memories are gone. One time, as I was coming out of it, I was talking a little to the nurses about a book that I had taken to read before the procedure. I only know this because I remember the answer I gave, and I know I was asked a question, but I don't actually remember the question. It's impossible to describe exactly how that feels to someone who hasn't gone through it.

Neverfly
2007-Oct-18, 01:33 AM
I just now read the article.

No Comment.

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-18, 01:41 AM
Huh?
I'd like to erase those things from my memory.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-18, 01:47 AM
You'll have more memories to come as you grow older .

;)

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 01:51 AM
You'll have more memories to come as you grow older .

And you'll lose some, too. Sadly, you don't get to choose which ones. :cry:

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-18, 02:02 AM
And you'll lose some, too. Sadly, you don't get to choose which ones. :cry:

Uh. well.. you can .

It's called "Selective Memory".

:neutral:

Noclevername
2007-Oct-18, 02:07 AM
Uh. well.. you can .

It's called "Selective Memory".


People of every age do that. Not always successfully, but we all do it. But what I was talking about was forgetting things you don't want to.

SeanF
2007-Oct-18, 01:39 PM
Having been through conscious sedation a few times, it is a very strange feeling knowing that some of your memories are gone. One time, as I was coming out of it, I was talking a little to the nurses about a book that I had taken to read before the procedure. I only know this because I remember the answer I gave, and I know I was asked a question, but I don't actually remember the question. It's impossible to describe exactly how that feels to someone who hasn't gone through it.
I get to do that Monday. Not really looking forward to the whole thing.

hhEb09'1
2007-Oct-18, 01:52 PM
[URL]
Pretty good article on the use of an anasthetic that can wipe the last ten minutes of your memories out. An interesting dilemma, too.I went through a few surgeries twenty years ago, and had some heated discussions about a drug called Versed. As near as I could tell (because it was not the only anesthesia used) it's only function was in the cases where the drugs would wear off and some pain would be inflicted--Versed guarantees that the patient won't remember the incident. As near as I can tell, from talking to folks in the medical field, this has been standard practice for a long time.
I get to do that Monday. Not really looking forward to the whole thing.Good Luck, report back :)

SeanF
2007-Oct-18, 02:04 PM
Good Luck, report back :)
If all goes according to plan, my report will be, "I don't remember." :)

korjik
2007-Oct-18, 06:12 PM
I dont see that there is a problem in this case. Keeping her from panicking, on the operating table, was probably a good thing.

This sort of thing is something that has to be looked at in a case by case basis. It shouldnt become a crutch for bad doctoring

Ilya
2007-Oct-18, 07:18 PM
The seventh-grade bullying... the photoshoped ghost pic that reduced my pre-skeptic self to cowering mush... the war... the long devision... what RCH stands for... man, I could use that.

What is RCH?

Seriously, if it ever becomes possible to selectively erase memories on demand, here is an obvious ethical dilemma:

You commit a crime and get memory of it erased. As far as you know, you never commited the crime. Is it ethical to punish you for something that you do not know you did?

BTW, my answer is yes, but on practical rather than ethical grounds. Convicting people for crimes they do not remember would reduce the incentive to erase such memories (there may still be other incentives, such as "you can't rat out your buddies if you don't remember"). But that does not reduce the anguish of convicts who are absolutely convinced they "did not do it".

Larry Jacks
2007-Oct-18, 09:24 PM
Having been through conscious sedation a few times, it is a very strange feeling knowing that some of your memories are gone. One time, as I was coming out of it, I was talking a little to the nurses about a book that I had taken to read before the procedure. I only know this because I remember the answer I gave, and I know I was asked a question, but I don't actually remember the question. It's impossible to describe exactly how that feels to someone who hasn't gone through it.

Been there, done that. I had an out-patient procedure a few years ago that involved conscious sedation. I remember when they started the IV and then I found myself at home. I don't remember the time in the recovery room (or the conversation my wife said I had), walking out to the car, or my wife driving me home. I now understand what people who've been dosed by one of the "date rape" drugs have experienced.

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-19, 12:56 AM
What is RCH?
Richard C. Hoaxland.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-19, 02:56 AM
Richard C. Hoaxland.

Is that a joke?

I think its Hoagland.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-19, 03:02 AM
I think its Hoagland.

I like her version better. :lol:

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-19, 09:40 PM
Is that a joke?
I think its Hoagland.
It's similar to saying "Darn!" or "Crud!" A word you say because you can't bring yourself to type the real word.

SeanF
2007-Oct-23, 02:40 AM
Good Luck, report back :)
Reporting in as ordered, sir!

Everything went as expected, but I have to go back in another month or so as there was too much to do in one visit. Actually, I don't think they got as much done today as they wanted to; I hope one more visit is enough.

I don't really remember it - just disjointed moments, like bits and pieces from a dream. I think I almost accidentally bit down on the dentist's mirror once, though. :doh:

Oh, well. My mouth's not even really all that sore. I'm going back to bed now, but I figured I'd check in. See you all later!

Moose
2007-Oct-23, 01:52 PM
I went through a few surgeries twenty years ago, and had some heated discussions about a drug called Versed. As near as I could tell (because it was not the only anesthesia used) it's only function was in the cases where the drugs would wear off and some pain would be inflicted--Versed guarantees that the patient won't remember the incident. As near as I can tell, from talking to folks in the medical field, this has been standard practice for a long time.Good Luck, report back :)

This may explain a series of experiences I had in each of my three surgeries about five years ago, which I have described on BAUT at least once before. I'm curious about most things, so I asked the surgical team that they give me a few seconds warning before they put me under. I wanted to pay attention and see what the sensation felt like. They agreed.

But shortly after they'd hooked up the epidural and set me up with an IV, the anesthesiologist told me he was administering "a relaxant". Moments later, while I was still sitting up, my memories abruptly end. Completely. No sensation, no perceptibly gradual change of awareness. Simply "aware, aware, aware, not aware".

It was a lot like hitting a unix-based logging daemon with a "kill -9" command.

My memories restarted, again abruptly, much later while I was in the recovery ward. I was awake but dopey. I had some sense of the passage of time, but only in that there was a rather blatant and wide gulf in my memory record.

My first time through, while I was in the recovery room, I became aware of a pins-and-needles sensation in my right hand, specifically in my pinky, ring, and middle fingers. They called the anesthesiologist back in to see me, and he did a test where he would touch my fingers with a small fork-like prod. I would have to try and tell if he was prodding me with one or both prongs. (I could not tell through the noise. I could tell he was touching me, but I could not resolve detail.)

The key here is that he told me that I had not reported this when he tested me this way in the OR. Apparently they had me awake and responding to questions, conscious, but without any memory at all of this.

But all three times, my memory ends moments after the anesthesiologist administered the "relaxant".

I am supremely underwhelmed by this development. No, let me correct that statement: I do not think I like the implications of this at all.

(Pardon the lack of contractions. I seem to have speed-keyed my way into a french-keyboard layout unique to Firefox. I do not know how to turn it off, and I have yet to find the apostrophe. I will restart Firefox as soon as I post this.)

Cougar
2007-Oct-23, 04:26 PM
I went through a few surgeries twenty years ago, and had some heated discussions about a drug called Versed.

Wiki: Versed® is a drug which is a benzodiazepine derivative. It has powerful anxiolytic, amnestic, hypnotic, anticonvulsant, skeletal muscle relaxant and sedative properties.

That's some kind of drug!

I have only a little anecdotal information on this, but Versed appears to be rather routinely used in combination with other anesthetics during surgeries. Anesthesiologists constantly monitor a patient's "vital signs" and adjust the amounts of drugs they are administering accordingly. One of the things they monitor is brain activity via a BIS monitor (http://www.aspectmedical.com/products/bis_monitoring.mspx). Anything over a 60, and you get another little dose. There doesn't seem to be much of an existing ethical question here. Such drugs are simply viewed as "protecting the patient from recall of events in the operating room."

John Mendenhall
2007-Oct-23, 04:40 PM
There doesn't seem to be much of an existing ethical question here. Such drugs are simply viewed as "protecting the patient from recall of events in the operating room."



My wife was a surgical nurse. This should probably read "protecting the staff from the patient's recall of events in the operating room."

SeanF
2007-Oct-24, 01:24 PM
Slightly off-topic (or maybe it's only slightly on-topic), but this month's National Geographic has an article on memory. Couple of interesting case studies at the two extremes - a woman who remembers virtually everything that she's experienced over the last couple of a decades and a man who remembers virtually nothing.

It was pretty interesting how the man can apparently learn new tasks, but without remembering how or when he learned them.

Ironically, the man comes across as the happier of the two, if only because he doesn't remember that he doesn't remember things...

reidenschneider
2007-Oct-29, 11:56 AM
this article may add some further information on memory modification.

there is one other study which i can not find at the moment which also deals with mm or rather lessening the impact that a specific memory may have.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/earth/2007/07/01/scimemo101.xml

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-29, 01:51 PM
Well I just remember Spideys best friend who temporarily forgot his hatred to his Spiderman which his father instilled to him.

What was his name ?

I can't remember.

:doh:

Moose
2007-Oct-29, 02:56 PM
Well I just remember Spideys best friend who temporarily forgot his hatred to his Spiderman which his father instilled to him.

What was his name ?

The movie? Harry Osborn. He insta-hated Spidey because Spidey killed his father, Norman Osborn, aka the Green Goblin.

Whirlpool
2007-Oct-29, 02:58 PM
Yeah , that's it.

I think that memory in my brain got erased temporarily.

:D

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-30, 12:44 AM
Plus, in the comics, Harry Osborn was on drugs when his father died, which was one of the reasons he went so psycho.