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chrix
2007-Oct-19, 09:19 AM
Astronomy geeks out there. I'm been bombarded with a lot of questions on why is Space Exploration is very important to humanity?. Our country just sent the first malaysian astronaut (through the Soyuz capsule) and it was indeed a proud moment for us.

Certain quarters are questioning why the government spent a lot of money on sending a man on space (for the info it's about 31 million US dollars), whereas the money could be spent for the poor. I'm very sad because it looks like there is no support among the people on the awareness of space exploration. I truly support the space programme and I need you people out there to help me to explain to my community on the benefit and the essentials of space exploration. Why is it so important? what is the outcome and where does it take us in future?.
Lets speak up and help me to bring awareness to my community here.

Thx

The_Radiation_Specialist
2007-Oct-19, 09:32 AM
To quote Carl Sagan : "All civilizations become extinct or space faring."

Okay, so he talks about way into the future but that's the inevitable truth. Also, $31 million would not have solved any long term problems in Malaysia or any other place for that matter.

Then, there is also the psychological effect and inspiration given to the young people to excel in science, technology and help prosper the country.

I think Buzz also puts it well: "We can continue to try and clean up the gutters all over the world and spend all of our resources looking at just the dirty spots and trying to make them clean. Or we can lift our eyes up and look into the skies and move forward in an evolutionary way."

antoniseb
2007-Oct-19, 01:18 PM
Manned Spaceflight resulted in the development of Tang(tm).
The study of the Moon rocks they brought back told us a lot about how the Moon was created, and perhaps more generally, some details about the formation of the Solar System. The non-manned spaceflights have told us a great deal about the workings of the universe, the Earth's ecosystem, and the nature of matter, and given us GPS, and Satellite TV.

Swift
2007-Oct-19, 01:27 PM
To name just a few (and in no particular order):
- specific technological spinoffs (NASA's website has a ton of this stuff)
- general support of both technical education and technical industries (the infrastructure for supporting the space program)
- Earth monitoring (weather satellites, resource monitoring, climate monitoring). Also add solar monitoring to that.
- satellite communication
- development of industries and technologies that make use of the micro-gravity environment
- studies of our planets (such as Mars) increases our understanding of how geological and other processes work on Earth
- studies of human physiology in micro-gravity gives us insights into such things as bone loss in the elderly

But I actually think that The_Radiation_Specialist gave the most important reason - the inspiration and the fulfilling of that human craving to explore and discover. That, and the satisifaction of, what Rachael Carson called, our Sense of Wonder.

crosscountry
2007-Oct-19, 02:11 PM
good reasons. I'm not sureI can add anything, but before reading the others I had my own ideas


imagination
it our destiny/mission. I mean, Humans have always sought new places, and it has helped us immensely.
technology
sets and gives good examples for others. gives us heroes.
it also allows us to exercize our brains.
and maybe most importantly, in the long run, it can give us a way to protect ourselves from threats in space i.e. asteroids, gamma ray bursts.
And one day we'll leave and have people permanently settle on somewhere else to seed a new colony.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-19, 02:19 PM
Malaysia has just joined a very exclusive club. Congratulations!

GOURDHEAD
2007-Oct-20, 01:36 PM
Astronomy geeks out there. I'm been bombarded with a lot of questions on why is Space Exploration is very important to humanity?. The survival of humanity. Who wants to be in the generation that watches hopelessly as they and their loved ones perish.

Argos
2007-Oct-20, 01:54 PM
Right now [well, maybe not on weekends], and every other day, corruption and bad government practices are draining [I´d guesstimate] 10 times as more resources as the cost of Shukor´s space trip, in your country, mine, and many others. That´s the real problem to be tackled.

The space program and the fight against poverty are not mutually excluding. Actually, I think the space program is part of the solution.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-20, 02:06 PM
Sooner or later, humanity is going to expand out into space, living and thriving there. When that happens, the fate of the Earth will no longer determine the fate of all humanity.

Kelfazin
2007-Oct-20, 02:55 PM
At our current rate of consumption and the increasing number of people living here, the Earth is going to run out of natural resources soon. New resources will have to come from somewhere, and space is one possibility.

Echo
2007-Oct-20, 03:20 PM
The thread What has space exploration done for society lately from 31 January,2007 will give you lots of ideas to support your countries program.

mugaliens
2007-Oct-21, 04:14 PM
I sincerely doubt that without the space program that any of you would be reading this right now.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-22, 12:47 AM
The thread What has space exploration done for society lately from 31 January,2007 will give you lots of ideas to support your countries program.

I ran an advanced search on that and found nothing. Can you link it?

chrix
2007-Oct-22, 12:56 AM
Thank you guys, it was very helpful. Anyway lets just say the in near future, the land on earth is so occupied until there is no land for people. If there is another planet/moon that we could occuply, lets say we created a moon colony on the moon where humans can live. my question is, who will go there first? is the rich or the people on the streets?

Nowdays people who have money, can go to space as a space tourist. Who will benefit more from this new world that we created?.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-22, 02:15 AM
Nowdays people who have money, can go to space as a space tourist. Who will benefit more from this new world that we created?.

At first, since there are very few spacecraft owned by very few people, those with money will go. But as means of getting people into space improve and become more numerous, costs will go down, opening up the possibility to many more.

As for where they will live, there are numerous possible concepts, including free-orbiting space habitats, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_habitat) shelters on the Moon, Mars, on other planets and moons, or inside hollowed-out asteroids, all of which would require complex life-supporting systems and a living ecology to sustain its human population, providing food and breatheable air. Large reflectors can easily collect and focus sunlight even at great distances from the Sun, providing energy for both plant life and solar power. Nuclear reactors may be needed to provide artificial light for those habitats on the outer fringes of the Solar System. Asteroids are believed to be composed of many of the materials needed to build and supply such habitats, and since their materials will not have to be launched against Earth's gravity, they will be cheaper to use for construction in space than materials launched by the rockets of today.

astromark
2007-Oct-22, 03:51 AM
Humanity needs goals. On a personal level it might be a sporting hero. On a national level a space program is hard to pass up as a worthy goal. Humanities survival will ultimately depend on knowledge gained from the space program.
The cost of that space program is unimportant as to not have one could be greater.

astromark
2007-Oct-22, 06:30 AM
Astronomy geeks out there. I'm been bombarded with a lot of questions on why is Space Exploration is very important to humanity?.

Lets speak up and help me to bring awareness to my community here.
Thx


I would not describe myself as a astronomy geek. It has become a hobby of some passion...lol:)...
If we look at man's history only two things seem to drive technical advancement. Our chance of survival. The first being war. the second being the space race. I would choose the later. With all that history to learn from, we don't.

chrix
2007-Oct-23, 01:05 AM
I would not describe myself as a astronomy geek. It has become a hobby of some passion...lol:)...
If we look at man's history only two things seem to drive technical advancement. Our chance of survival. The first being war. the second being the space race. I would choose the later. With all that history to learn from, we don't.

Astronomy ethusiasts....maybe that will suit well.:lol:

blueshift
2007-Oct-23, 03:44 AM
You might add to the fact that we are under the threat of mass extinction by some large asteroid or comet. We do need to be prepared to divert such a threat's path.

Astobiology has learned from the Columbia mission that moss developes a Fibonnaci spiral pattern that it does not possess on the ground and inside of caves. It grows toward the weaker part of the gravitational field in caves.

Meanwhile, flowers such as sunflowers, lose their spiral patterns in microgravity.

All this tells us that spacetime influences shapes of molecules or their arrangement. Since molecules are shape sensitive and space structure dictates how shapes can truncate or stellate into other shapes, then there is a possibility that the mathematics of spacetime structure and group theory in topology will become advanced enough in the future to tell the biochemist what experiments he or she is wasting their time on. This can cut down the time frames for finding cures by a large amount.

When someone is asking what good space exporation does for humanity they are likely also asking the amateur astronomer what good the field of astronomy has done. Just point right to spectroscopy for the answer and ask them to figure out where biology and chemistry would be without it.

jlhredshift
2007-Oct-23, 04:38 AM
You can walk to the top of a hill and gaze upon new and unexplored wonders of an unknown land wherein you will have to decide whether to go forward and seek out new knowledge or back to where you have allready been.

All life on this planet seeks to go where it has not been. From the simplest virus to us, the organic plan that has been successful is to seek out resources and multiply. Space is just another place to go, and we will.

chrix
2007-Oct-23, 06:31 AM
You might add to the fact that we are under the threat of mass extinction by some large asteroid or comet. We do need to be prepared to divert such a threat's path.

Astobiology has learned from the Columbia mission that moss developes a Fibonnaci spiral pattern that it does not possess on the ground and inside of caves. It grows toward the weaker part of the gravitational field in caves.

Meanwhile, flowers such as sunflowers, lose their spiral patterns in microgravity.

All this tells us that spacetime influences shapes of molecules or their arrangement. Since molecules are shape sensitive and space structure dictates how shapes can truncate or stellate into other shapes, then there is a possibility that the mathematics of spacetime structure and group theory in topology will become advanced enough in the future to tell the biochemist what experiments he or she is wasting their time on. This can cut down the time frames for finding cures by a large amount.

When someone is asking what good space exporation does for humanity they are likely also asking the amateur astronomer what good the field of astronomy has done. Just point right to spectroscopy for the answer and ask them to figure out where biology and chemistry would be without it.

This is great, do you or anyone else out there know what have we invented or got to know new science through space exploration? example as what Blueshift said, we found out on the sunflower thing. Any other knowledge that we could apply in our daily life that we got to know from our great space out there?.

crosscountry
2007-Oct-23, 01:45 PM
I think it was Dave Scott, commander of Apollo 15 that said in regards to Human exploration

"Man must explore. And this is exploration at its greatest."

Kaptain K
2007-Oct-23, 02:44 PM
Leave the word "space" out of the original question;

"What is the benefit of Exploration?"

...and the answer is that it is what makes us what we are. Without the urge to see what's over the next hill, we would still be crouched in caves, scratching fleas and wondering if that last bit of moose was still good to eat!

Trakar
2007-Oct-23, 03:18 PM
Astronomy geeks out there. I'm been bombarded with a lot of questions on why is Space Exploration is very important to humanity?. Our country just sent the first malaysian astronaut (through the Soyuz capsule) and it was indeed a proud moment for us.

Certain quarters are questioning why the government spent a lot of money on sending a man on space (for the info it's about 31 million US dollars), whereas the money could be spent for the poor. I'm very sad because it looks like there is no support among the people on the awareness of space exploration. I truly support the space programme and I need you people out there to help me to explain to my community on the benefit and the essentials of space exploration. Why is it so important? what is the outcome and where does it take us in future?.
Lets speak up and help me to bring awareness to my community here.

Thx

You seem to be asking and conflating two very different questions here; 1) Why is manned space exploration/exploitation of benefit to humanity in general over the indefinite future? and 2) Why is it important for my small nation to spend relatively significant amounts of money participating in a largely insignificant manner in manned space exploration right now?

There are many answers and discussions surrounding these questions, but it is important to the proper consideration of the issue, to distinguish between the two aspects of what you seem to be asking.

chrix
2007-Oct-24, 01:18 AM
yes it's two different question....but it is inter-related in some ways. it's good if i could get the answers for both...

mugaliens
2007-Oct-24, 06:05 AM
Leave the word "space" out of the original question;

"What is the benefit of Exploration?"

...and the answer is that it is what makes us what we are. Without the urge to see what's over the next hill, we would still be crouched in caves, scratching fleas and wondering if that last bit of moose was still good to eat!

Moose. Mmmm...

I'll leave the fleas and the cold cave behind, though...

Trakar
2007-Oct-24, 03:57 PM
yes it's two different question....but it is inter-related in some ways. it's good if i could get the answers for both...

You have been, and I'm sure will continue to, get many responses regarding the pros and cons of space exploration with regards to humanity in general. So I will let others address that issue. As to why it is important for your nation to send an astronaut/tourist into space now, I think we'd have to sit down and make a list of the Pros and Cons and the counter points to such, in order to properly evaluate the issue.

The primary debate you mention seems to revolve around whether or not it is better to spend 31 million dollars to send a person of native heritage on a jaunt to the ISS, or better to spend that money on helping the poor of the nation. Before we get started into a listing and discussion of pros and cons, it should be noted that, at least here in the US, such budgetary "either/or" options are largely representative of what is known as an informal logical fallacy of "false choice/false dilemma." It is extremely rare that monies allocated for one government project are directly deducted from monies that would otherwise have gone entirely to another government project. And it seems rather unlikely that the cancelling of 31 million dollars to send a national to the ISS, would result in that 31M$ going directly and fully into the coffers to feed starving orphans.

If you are interested, I'd be happy to list a few of the Pros/Cons and counterpoints that I see, and perhaps we can get an involve a few others in expanding upon that discussion.

chrix
2007-Oct-25, 02:21 AM
You have been, and I'm sure will continue to, get many responses regarding the pros and cons of space exploration with regards to humanity in general. So I will let others address that issue. As to why it is important for your nation to send an astronaut/tourist into space now, I think we'd have to sit down and make a list of the Pros and Cons and the counter points to such, in order to properly evaluate the issue.

The primary debate you mention seems to revolve around whether or not it is better to spend 31 million dollars to send a person of native heritage on a jaunt to the ISS, or better to spend that money on helping the poor of the nation. Before we get started into a listing and discussion of pros and cons, it should be noted that, at least here in the US, such budgetary "either/or" options are largely representative of what is known as an informal logical fallacy of "false choice/false dilemma." It is extremely rare that monies allocated for one government project are directly deducted from monies that would otherwise have gone entirely to another government project. And it seems rather unlikely that the cancelling of 31 million dollars to send a national to the ISS, would result in that 31M$ going directly and fully into the coffers to feed starving orphans.

If you are interested, I'd be happy to list a few of the Pros/Cons and counterpoints that I see, and perhaps we can get an involve a few others in expanding upon that discussion.

yes, i would very much love to hear that...bring it on.

AGN Fuel
2007-Oct-25, 03:01 AM
May I just note that a post in this thread from Blueshift was immediately followed by a post from jlhredshift.

Now I don't know if I'm coming or going.... :)

Robert Tulip
2007-Oct-25, 03:14 AM
[]The primary debate you mention seems to revolve around whether or not it is better to spend 31 million dollars to send a person of native heritage on a jaunt to the ISS, or better to spend that money on helping the poor of the nation. [] such budgetary "either/or" options are largely representative of what is known as an informal logical fallacy of "false choice/false dilemma."

Space travel and exploration are essential. Without growth we would stagnate. However, it does need to be considered carefully against other priorities. TShaitanaku is not entirely right to imply that budget option analysis is fallacious, as indirect options can be real. The economic concept is opportunity cost - when skills and resources are devoted to one area they are not available for other possibly more valuable uses. For example, on the radio today an academic suggested that global renewable energy programs should be funded to the same level as US military research, which receives $80 billion per year. This amount is 17% of the overall Pentagon budget of $459 billion (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,151520,00.html). At the moment, he said renewables get about $3billion p.a., or 0.65% of the US military budget. It could be argued the contribution of renewable energy to fixing the planet and addressing global warming is worth more than 0.65% of the undoubted security benefits of the American military, whose expenditure therefore has high opportunity cost. Looking at the space travel question against this example, I would not pose it against the direct welfare of the poor, but against the opportunity to focus collective efforts on the real security problem posed by climate change. I firmly believe we could easily cut atmospheric carbon from the present 800 gigatonnes to the historic norm of 500 gigatonnes within fifty years if humanity cooperated on this. Against this direct benefit of investment to fix our own planet, I suspect that space travel for a country like Malaysia is linked more to political prestige than to any real benefits. We should be ambitious to get into space, but need a good sequencing of steps, and analysis of motives and benefits of alternatives.

Trakar
2007-Oct-25, 04:45 AM
Space travel and exploration are essential. Without growth we would stagnate. .

Though I am, in general, a space exploration/exploitation advocate, it would be intellectually disingenuous, IMO, to equate these ventures as the only venues capable of generating growth and development, and the only way to stave off stagnation. Ultimately, in the extreme long-term, there maybe some element of truth there, but such is certainly not the case over the period of the next several centuries.


However, it does need to be considered carefully against other priorities. TShaitanaku is not entirely right to imply that budget option analysis is fallacious, as indirect options can be real.

No need to be so formal, Trakar, or TS, is fine (I thought I had originally had the Trakar SN here, but there apparently is no record tied to my email address, and the name is unavailable, so I am relegated to my first initial and last name).

Of course, under normal circumstances national budgets are finite sums, and absent "creative/voodoo" (read as -deficit-) financing, in order to pay for a new program, the funding must come from somewhere. The fallacious choice to which I refer is the false dilemma that is often presented by opponents to space (or any big ticket science) that there are only two choices, fund the science, or feed the poor.

<snip of the beginnings of a potential discussion concerning a topic that is even more dear to my heart and mind at this time, than space exploration/exploitation, that being the perils of impending anthropogenically forced climate change>


I suspect that space travel for a country like Malaysia is linked more to political prestige than to any real benefits. We should be ambitious to get into space, but need a good sequencing of steps, and analysis of motives and benefits of alternatives.

Not that the value of such political and national prestige should be dismissed out-of-hand as without merit, but I agree, any such assessment should probably be carefully weighed and evaluated. 31M$ could provide a lot of fully paid aerospace engineering scholarships to students that might otherwise not have the opportunity attend higher learning academies, for instance. These are the types of discussions and considerations that the Malaysian people need to have.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-25, 04:59 AM
Another benefit is the inspiration that Dr. Shukor personally will provide to the people, especially the young, of Malaysia. In the U.S., a great many people who work in the sciences and in aerospace industries say they were inspired by astronauts whom they had met or heard speak. I hope that having a citizen of their own nation who has personally been to space will likewise inspire many Malaysian children to learn and pursue an interest in science.

blueshift
2007-Oct-25, 01:30 PM
This is great, do you or anyone else out there know what have we invented or got to know new science through space exploration? example as what Blueshift said, we found out on the sunflower thing. Any other knowledge that we could apply in our daily life that we got to know from our great space out there?.There is. GPS systems were developed that must take general relativity into account in order to land our jets, find lost Alzheimer's patients and guide tractors along the ground on precisely straight lines (saving millions in food costs).

The advances in X-ray science came from missions in outer space and is a major tool at places like Argonne that enable scientists to see the molecular structure of materials we use everyday and enable scientists to visualize the cellular behavior of organisms. The study of the sun and its vibrational patterns has allowed scientists to calculate what is going on inside of the sun on the subatomic level and, when bringing spectroscopy along with here we get a feedback that goes back and forth between the macro-universe and the micro-universe. This means that whatever goes on inside of particle accelerators tells us what is going on in the universe. All the sciences are closing in on each other.

Here are some applied science links for things that occured just this year:



Greenhouse gases:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002050

Eliminating NOx from diesel exhaust:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002094

Kidney stones:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002029

Radiation biology and DNA:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002039

Molecular self assembly:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002040

Development of Molecular Observatory

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002042

Fuel cell efficiency for stop and go traffic:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002043

More global ties in science:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002049

Probing ancient materials:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002051

Flexible electronics and artificial muscles:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002054

T-Cell behavior and organ rejection:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002065

Behavior link of nuclear pores and viruses:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002081


Alzheimer study and toxic molecules:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002084

Linking Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, Diabetes and Madcow:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002095

Movement disorders:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002093

holographing antiferromagnetism (quantum magnetism?):

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002105

Newton's Dusty Mirror Experiments:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002294

Insect size and tracheal tube lengths connected:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002296

first atomic structure of an ancient protein:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002308

Self organizing space dust: precursor to life?

http://www.universetoday.com/2007/08/15/self-organizing-space-dust-could-be-a-precursor-to-life/

molecular cell death switches and cancer:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002321

Immune system's anthrax link:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002322

Reduction of side effects of diabetes drugs?

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002348

Passive millimeter wave spectroscopy (PmmWS) and its ability to detect illicit chemicals:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/NE070831.html

Understanding exotic nuclei:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/news070829.html

Limits to insect sizes:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/news070809.html

Nano-boric acid makes motor oil more slippery:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/ES070803.html


New DNA technique for self assembly of micro and nano particles:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002357

New sunscreens and better solar cells:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002355

New X-Ray beam source and it use for revealing spatial atomic structures of tiny protein crystals to find starting points for new drugs...and for a use to test welding seams and fatigue of work pieces:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002358

Cause and dealing with cystic fibrosis and dealing with polluted water:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002366

attacking resistant strains of bacteria:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002360

The bacterium that didn't come from Mars:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002369

Deep earth experiments with high spin/low spin states:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002371

How to keep asteroid explorers grounded:

http://www.universetoday.com/2007/09/26/tether-to-keep-asteroid-explorers-grounded/

X-Rays exceeding the critical angle for better resolution:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002375

Self-assembling magnetic snakes point to new electronic devices:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/MSD070928.html

New method proposed to measure the weak force:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/news070928.html

Wakefield acceleration and smaller particle accelerators:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/HEP070914.html

Improving electronic storage without magnetic fields:

http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2007/news070913.html

Microcrystal structure:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002381

Iron accumulation and Parkinson's Disease:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002386

Powder diffraction and muscle differentiation:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002384

Changes in atomic orbitals (patterns of electron densities) at the interface between
two molecules:

http://us.f823.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?MsgId=1181_3209113_6454_1717_6793_0_719 6_16369_3553173281&Idx=0&YY=74619&y5beta=yes&y5beta=yes&inc=25&order=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox

zinc ion's role to help oxygen damage during photosynthesis:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002391

high resolutions in 3D reveal structures of proteins that, once inhibited or stimulated, will treat numerous diseases. Inhibition deals with sepsis and cancer while stimulation deals with protein folding for diseases such as cystic fibrosis, Alzheimer's and prion diseases.

High compression of metallic glasses produces electron reconfiguration, changing the rate it shrinks as compression increases:

http://www.lightsources.org/cms/?pid=1002392

Things like bullet proof vests came from this science and it is all integrated with our exploration of the universe.

chrix
2007-Oct-26, 06:06 AM
Here are some applied science links for things that occured just this year

Blueshift...you rock....thx for those links. appreciate that very much

neilzero
2007-Nov-17, 04:23 AM
Humans will likely survive a few more centuries, perhaps a billion years, but we may not thrive unless we spread out in to space. We are quite valnerable in 100 ways with all our eggs in one basket. We may need to repopulate Earth in 2099 (or most any other year) after the big asteroid hit. Neil

astromark
2007-Nov-18, 09:32 AM
"What is the benefit of space exploration"

Its a absolute certainty that we can not survive this planets destruction. Or just the disruption a heavy impactor would create if we do not learn to go out into space.

No mater what the actual circumstances of our threat to humanity we must learn to deal with it. If that means we go out into space stations that resemble the 'Deep space Nine' image of large revolving habitats in space.

Its the only choice we have. The quicker we get this idea the better.

If we want to survive this planets end we have no alternative.

We best hurry... we have a history of what 2 million years and a future of just 3 billion ... maybe I can relax a while. :)

Bogie
2007-Nov-19, 02:19 AM
When I think of evolution and the rapid spread of mutations across a small population with rapid growth, I would speculate that human migration from Earth could lead to accelerated evolution.

This presupposes that advantageous mutations will flourish and disadvantageous mutations will not.

The survival of humanity will require human migration from Earth. Adapting to a new environment might require rapid advantageous evolution and the future survival of mankind might benefit from such evolution making our next migration easier, and widening the human presence throughout the galaxy.

But then, we will always be faced with defeating entropy. If ours is the only universe and it is open and will thus expand forever, we are doomed ;).

Noclevername
2007-Nov-19, 02:28 AM
Even without genetic mutation, spreading into space will also allow widely varied social mutations to flourish without being overwhelmed by cultural monopolies or the "tyranny of the majority".

Bogie
2007-Nov-19, 02:37 AM
Even without genetic mutation, spreading into space will also allow widely varied social mutations to flourish without being overwhelmed by cultural monopolies or the "tyranny of the majority".That is a good point.

The benefit you mentioned can be increased by increasing the diversity of the migrating population.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-19, 02:39 AM
That is a good point.

The benefit you mentioned can be increased by increasing the diversity of the migrating population.

Given that we'll soon have the ability to modify ourselves, that'll probably happen even more than natural evolution normally allows, on Earth and in space.

Bogie
2007-Nov-19, 03:11 AM
Given that we'll soon have the ability to modify ourselves, that'll probably happen even more than natural evolution normally allows, on Earth and in space.Do you want to know why the phrase, "on Earth as it is in heaven" comes to my mind when you talk like that :)?

It is because as we alter ourselves here on Earth, we may be able to craft ourselves for the migration from Earth the the "heavens". No religious implication intended.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-19, 03:16 AM
Do you want to know why the phrase, "on Earth as it is in heaven" comes to my mind when you talk like that :)?

It is because as we alter ourselves here on Earth, we may be able to craft ourselves for the migration from Earth the the "heavens". No religious implication intended.

More than likely, there will be both modified and unmodified groups of spacedwellers spreading throughout the galaxy. The only modification I'd care for aside from curing various medical problems, would be to get rid of this darn aging process. Give me that, and you can have the rest, I'll just make do with technologically modifying my environment. ;)

Van Rijn
2007-Nov-19, 04:32 AM
I can think of a few adjustments while still maintaining the same form, such as substantially increased radiation resistance and bones that won't lose strength in low gravity (and other low g fixes).

astromark
2007-Nov-19, 08:30 AM
I am becoming increasingly disappointed with the absence of what seems to me to be a perfectly simple explanation and fix. We are discussing here the merits of space travel and/or exploration. As Carl Sagan said so eloquently. ( not his words, but the same thought.) If we do not get off this planet we will die.
I do not know where to start when making the list of good science that has been bought to us because of the space race, or program.
Only humanities rage to kill has exceeded that avenue of discovery. War.
Which is a shame, and not some thing we can be proud of.

I would go even closer to the point with... we should be ashamed of our selves.
We must put the monetary value aside and go into space as if our lives and very existence depended on it. Because it does.

Halcyon Dayz
2007-Nov-19, 09:08 AM
The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in. - Robert A. Heinlein


Also, OT:

Women will forgive anything. Otherwise, the race would have died out long ago. - Robert A. Heinlein

crosscountry
2007-Nov-19, 02:31 PM
I can think of a few adjustments while still maintaining the same form, such as substantially increased radiation resistance and bones that won't lose strength in low gravity (and other low g fixes).



I don't see it that way. What if they all die?



See, mutations need a couple of things to survive. First they have to not kill the mutant. Second the mutant has to be able to reproduce. If the mutation makes someone infertile, then no genetic information can be passed on. It's possible, but it's not fast.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-19, 04:01 PM
See, mutations need a couple of things to survive. First they have to not kill the mutant. Second the mutant has to be able to reproduce. If the mutation makes someone infertile, then no genetic information can be passed on. It's possible, but it's not fast.

I think Van Rijn was talking about deliberate engineering, not random mutation.

And yes, there will be some tragic failures. There always are. But it won't (except in the short term) stop people from trying. Sooner or later, if something can be done, someone will do it. So hereditary genetic variations of humanity, including low-g and rad-tolerant models, will eventually exist.

filrabat
2007-Nov-19, 05:03 PM
What benefits are there?

A simple philosophical answer (courtesy of Star Trek: Voyager, though spoken in another context)

The more we know about the universe in all its respects, the more we know about ourselves - and knowing about yourself is critically important to finding happiness and satisfaction in life.

It's the same reason why we study every field of knowledge.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-19, 05:09 PM
What benefits are there?


In addition to the potential for many tangible benefits as well. (see post #15 for a partial list)