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spud72
2007-Oct-23, 02:48 PM
OK, that may be a bit of an exaggeration but still an honest question.

From what I understand Jupiter actually emits more energy than it receives from the sun. This must be due to some internal function deep in the planet.

Is there any idea how long Jupiter can continue emitting more than it receives?

My gut feeling is likely longer than our sun, in a similar vein to how a smaller star can last far longer than a more massive star.

Do we even know the process involved in its "creation" of energy?

Hornblower
2007-Oct-23, 04:04 PM
If I am not mistaken, it is just residual heat left over from the gravitational compression that formed the planet in the first place. An object that big takes billions of years to cool down, even if there is no new source of heat inside it.

Warren Platts
2007-Oct-23, 07:29 PM
OK, that may be a bit of an exaggeration but still an honest question.

From what I understand Jupiter actually emits more energy than it receives from the sun. This must be due to some internal function deep in the planet.

Is there any idea how long Jupiter can continue emitting more than it receives?

My gut feeling is likely longer than our sun, in a similar vein to how a smaller star can last far longer than a more massive star.

Do we even know the process involved in its "creation" of energy?Supposedly, Jupiter is shrinking by about 3 cm every year, and this continued gravitational collapse continues to generate heat. It's core is about maybe 20,000 K; and that cools by about 1 K every million years. Throw in a little deuterium burning, and it becomes clear that Jupiter will continue to emit more than it receives for quite a while yet.

astromark
2007-Oct-24, 01:21 AM
Deep in the interior of Jupiter there is not enough elbow room for your average molecule to go swinging about as they might like to. Its tight. Why? Because all that gas is being drawn in toward the center by the forces of its own gravity. On the surface of Jupiter we can see and know that it is a light and fluffy environment. It would float on water...but, deep in that foreboding interior lies so much matter all trying to collapse inward. On a planet that equatorial region rotates every 10 or so hours. Jupiter is not a star. Its a gas giant planet. More informed will tell you that no it does not have fusion or fission. but it would if it could. It just needs about ten times more mass than it has..
You can not ask if Jupiter will die... Jupiter is dead. Planets do not live.
I may not have answered your question well, but trust something to think about is hidden in here...:)

neilzero
2007-Oct-24, 02:40 AM
It is thought that a class m star with 1/10 the mass of our sun will continue to convert mass to energy for at least 100 billion years. If Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune convert mass to energy (at the present rate) for 1000 times that long = 100 trillion years, they will still have about 99% their present mass. I know we think negligible mass conversion is happening, but we are not sure.
More likely, the excess heat will be a million times less in 100 billion years (because nearly all the radioactive isotopes have decayed to stable elements) but will take much longer to reach zero excess. Neil

RalofTyr
2007-Oct-24, 06:24 AM
In about 5 billion years, the sun will extinguish. What will Jupiter look like after that?

If there's life on Europa? Could it be possible that it could continue there until the end of time, if there is such a possibility, as life there would not be dependant on the Sun and the tidal forces that might give Europa a deep, warm ocean would still be present?

Noclevername
2007-Oct-24, 06:31 AM
In about 5 billion years, the sun will extinguish. What will Jupiter look like after that?
Darker. ;)


If there's life on Europa? Could it be possible that it could continue there until the end of time, if there is such a possibility, as life there would not be dependant on the Sun and the tidal forces that might give Europa a deep, warm ocean would still be present?
Europa's internal heating is dependant mainly from tidal energy from its orbit around Jupiter. Five billion years from now, that energy may have run out... Definitely not til the end of time.

Could someone with a better brain than me figure out the math for this?

RalofTyr
2007-Oct-24, 06:55 AM
Europa's internal heating is dependant mainly from tidal energy from its orbit around Jupiter. Five billion years from now, that energy may have run out... Definitely not til the end of time.

But the tidal energy is from the gravity of Jupiter, which won't change regardless if the sun goes red giant or not. There will always be tidal energy.

astromark
2007-Oct-24, 08:17 AM
As the sun ends its life some five or so billion years into the future I believe that it will eject a great deal of its mass as it does so. Would a sudden reduction of mass be enough to set Jupiter on a outward journey. I think it might and as Europa is gravity bound would just simply go with her. Are we asking about a place to survive the end of Sol? or just asking?

Delvo
2007-Oct-24, 01:38 PM
But the tidal energy is from the gravity of Jupiter, which won't change regardless if the sun goes red giant or not. There will always be tidal energy.No, there won't. It gradually causes an object to change its rotation speed or its distance from the other object. For example, the moon is drifting farther away from us and the Earth's rotation is slowing down. Eventually, any such pair of objects reaches a state in which those forces no longer operate: they crash into each other, drift apart, or both end up doing one rotation per revolution with the same sides always facing each other.

jonfr
2007-Oct-25, 05:56 AM
Isn't Jupiter almost big enough to be counted as a red dwarf or some type of the brown class type. According to Wikipeda, the red dwarf Barnard's Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnard%27s_Star) [1 (http://www.solstation.com/stars/barnards.htm) - Sol Station info] is little bit bigger then Jupiter, although is has more mass.

RalofTyr
2007-Oct-25, 06:06 AM
As the sun ends its life some five or so billion years into the future I believe that it will eject a great deal of its mass as it does so. Would a sudden reduction of mass be enough to set Jupiter on a outward journey. I think it might and as Europa is gravity bound would just simply go with her. Are we asking about a place to survive the end of Sol? or just asking?

Just asking. I really doubt there will be anything alive in the Sol system in 5 billion years other than, perhaps the micro-organisms on Europa, if such an ocean is present.

Also, how long does Europa have with Jupiter? Though, I doubt Europa will have any advanced life forms, for that, you need oxygen, something a star is needed for.

astromark
2007-Oct-25, 06:46 AM
:)Ah, yes oxygen.
Where did ours come from?

Grashtel
2007-Oct-25, 10:46 AM
Isn't Jupiter almost big enough to be counted as a red dwarf or some type of the brown class type. According to Wikipeda, the red dwarf Barnard's Star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnard%27s_Star) [1 (http://www.solstation.com/stars/barnards.htm) - Sol Station info] is little bit bigger then Jupiter, although is has more mass.
No, Jupiter would need to be about ten times its current mass to make it to even brown dwarf. For this sort of thing the size of a body is far less important than its mass, particularly as Jupiter is about the maximum size for a sub-stellar body (because gravitational compaction more massive bodies actually get smaller up to the point where they start producing significant amounts of energy from fusion).

novaderrik
2007-Oct-27, 03:14 PM
You can not ask if Jupiter will die... Jupiter is dead. Planets do not live.

cars are also not alive- but they can "die". same with computers, toasters, and any other piece of technology.
yeah, i know, Jupiter isn't a piece of technology, but the same rules of language apply.

astromark
2007-Oct-28, 04:36 AM
What rules of language... the only rules that I see have exceptions that seem to be broken....often. Cars do not live... They might fail to proceed and risk being beaten into submission.... I am not and will not be held up as responsible for the foolishness that is the English language. It is a much misused tool that I am just beginning to get comfortable with.:)I can not be blamed for the odd misuse or deliberate fluffy logic found here. If my rantings have further confused you...ignor me. and sorry.:)

So we are agreed. Jupiter does not have sufficient mass to be a star. A gas giant of a planet yes, a star never.

novaderrik
2007-Oct-28, 07:50 PM
so can this thread die then?

Kaptain K
2007-Oct-29, 01:43 AM
It should be so lucky!

Noclevername
2007-Oct-29, 02:20 AM
cars are also not alive- but they can "die". same with computers, toasters, and any other piece of technology.
yeah, i know, Jupiter isn't a piece of technology, but the same rules of language apply.

Such as the metaphor, as in "Death is a metaphor for ceasing to produce energy"?

mugaliens
2007-Nov-01, 07:37 AM
Darker. ;)

Good one!


Europa's internal heating is dependant mainly from tidal energy from its orbit around Jupiter. Five billion years from now, that energy may have run out... Definitely not til the end of time.

Could someone with a better brain than me figure out the math for this?

In 5 by, Europa's orbit will probably have decayed due to both tidal forces and frame dragging (to a lesser extent) so that Europa is no longer Europa but a part of Jupiter.