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johnb
2003-Jul-27, 09:09 AM
You guys may have dealt with this before but I`m not good enough to track the thread down.
Anyway! Just watched Apollo13 again. What happened to the LEM(Aquarius?). Did it bounce, burn or is it still there in orbit? My guess, from my very limited knowledge, is one of the first two options; but I`d like to know.

Tuckerfan
2003-Jul-27, 09:22 AM
It burned up. There was some concern because of the nuclear powerplant onboard, but NASA placed the reentry of the LM so that any debris from it would wind up at the bottom of the Marianus Trench, which should keep it from contaminating anything.

Pinemarten
2003-Jul-27, 09:26 AM
I am probably wrong, but....
I think once the LMs linked with the Command Module, they were ejected to crash (but not burn), on Luna's surface. Their purpose was served, and they moved on/up/down/sideways?

johnb
2003-Jul-27, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the quick responses.
1. The LM had a nuclear power source?(I`m a newbie, be gentle.)

2. Could they be accurate enough to target the marianas trench. Remember the LM was`nt supposed to come back at all and everything on this mission, from after the explosion, was done on the fly,so to speak.

Tuckerfan
2003-Jul-27, 09:44 AM
Thanks for the quick responses.
1. The LM had a nuclear power source?(I`m a newbie, be gentle.)

2. Could they be accurate enough to target the marianas trench. Remember the LM was`nt supposed to come back at all and everything on this mission, from after the explosion, was done on the fly,so to speak.The power source wasn't all that powerful, and IIRC, it was mainly used for keeping the electronics warm, and not supplying full power to the LM.

As for targeting the Marianas Trench, don't forget that it's a pretty big target and that while the exact emergency of Apollo 13 hadn't been planned for (no one thought that so much could go wrong at one time), similar emergencies had been planned for, so while certain details of the mission had to be done "on the fly," as it were, other things could have been planned for in advance. (Not saying that they did plan to dump it in the trench beforehand, mind you, only that it's likely they did so.) Also, it was necessary for them to be able to control the LM after it had seperated from the CM, so they had designed it to allow for remote control. This means that when they jettisoned it, they didn't have to manuover the CM to position it correctly, they just "dumped it" into space and the guys on the ground took over control of the LM.

johnb
2003-Jul-27, 10:04 AM
Great learning from you.
Herself :roll: just leant over ma shoulder to read these replys and asks where did the A13 CM end up? Is it in the Smithsonian?

Tuckerfan
2003-Jul-27, 10:12 AM
Great learning from you.
Herself :roll: just leant over ma shoulder to read these replys and asks where did the A13 CM end up? Is it in the Smithsonian?Kansas (http://aesp.nasa.okstate.edu/fieldguide/pages/apollo/index.html"), of all places. :o

johnb
2003-Jul-27, 11:11 AM
KANSAS! KANSAS! :o
WELL! Herself :roll: says that`s odd,well actually she said perfectly peculiar :roll: .
I have to agree though. A13 may not have made it to the moon but it demonstrated( spectacularly) just how good NASA was. The thing should be a shrine to the backroom boys.

Glom
2003-Jul-27, 12:25 PM
1. The LM had a nuclear power source?

13, like all missions from 12 onwards, carried the Apollo Lunar Scientific Experiments Package (ALSEP). It was a collection of neat little experiments that the Lunar surface crew would set up on their first LEVA and it would transmit data back to Earth. 13's included the Passive Seismic Experiment, the Heat Flow Experiment, the Charged Particle Lunar Environment Experiment and the Cold Cathode Guage Experiment. All ALSEPs were powered from a Snap 27 Radioisotopic Thermoelectric Generator that used the decay of a plutonium to generate heat and in turn to generate electricity. Because the experiment was never deployed, this fuel rod remained in the Earthbound spacecraft. Fortunately, the fuel rod was contained in a cask for transport that was resistant to reentry and it now lies at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.


2. Could they be accurate enough to target the marianas trench. Remember the LM was`nt supposed to come back at all and everything on this mission, from after the explosion, was done on the fly,so to speak.

It's all about orbital mechanics and a bit of atmospheric dynamics. The LM would burn up easily so all they had to worry about was the cask. It wasn't too difficult.

ToSeek
2003-Jul-27, 02:18 PM
The RTG ended up in the Tonga Trench (http://www.seds.org/spaceviews/cassini/rtg.html), actually. Not the deepest in the world, but probably deep enough.

johnb
2003-Jul-27, 04:53 PM
THANK YOU to all.
It`s always good to learn new stuff.

Duane534
2003-Jul-27, 11:30 PM
KANSAS! KANSAS! :o
WELL! Herself :roll: says that`s odd,well actually she said perfectly peculiar :roll: .

What's your point? We restored it.

Tuckerfan
2003-Jul-27, 11:36 PM
KANSAS! KANSAS! :o
WELL! Herself :roll: says that`s odd,well actually she said perfectly peculiar :roll: .

What's your point? We restored it.Only because they were going to be making a movie about it and needed it for a prop, IIRC.

johnb
2003-Jul-28, 02:41 PM
Duane534.

I`m not disparaging Kansas.
My point was the superb performance by NASA. A13 tends to be remembered for not getting to the moon. I remember it for the great way those guys overcame the problems and brought that crew home.
It`s easy enough when things go right but keeping it together when it`s falling apart around you, I think thats the true test of how good they really were. And I just felt a place in the Smithsonian would`nt be out of place.

Firefox
2003-Jul-28, 05:28 PM
I would say that you're correct, John. Keep in mind that the Cosmosphere's also going to be the permanent home of Liberty Bell 7, so it seems that Kansas only gets the ones that suffered from mishaps (there's also a Mercury boilerplate there from one of the failed Atlas launches.)

At least we have *something* in Kansas besides wheat and tornadoes, I suppose.


Adam

Kaptain K
2003-Jul-28, 05:37 PM
At least we have *something* in Kansas besides wheat and tornadoes, I suppose.
My ex-wife! :o 8)

Avian
2003-Jul-28, 08:43 PM
KANSAS! KANSAS! :o
WELL! Herself :roll: says that`s odd,well actually she said perfectly peculiar :roll: .
I have to agree though. A13 may not have made it to the moon but it demonstrated( spectacularly) just how good NASA was. The thing should be a shrine to the backroom boys.

Just 45 minutes away from me. If you'd like to see it and will be anywhere around town, shoot me an email. It is really worth seeing, as is all of the Kansas Cosmosphere.

Avian

tracer
2003-Jul-28, 09:19 PM
NASA placed the reentry of the LM so that any debris from it would wind up at the bottom of the Marianus Trench
According to Jim Lovell's audio commentary for the Apollo 13 movie, at least one of the pieces of the spacecraft and/or launch vehicle was placed on a trajectory which would eventually cause it to crash into the sun. I thought that the LEM was one such piece.

AGN Fuel
2003-Jul-29, 12:04 AM
NASA placed the reentry of the LM so that any debris from it would wind up at the bottom of the Marianus Trench
According to Jim Lovell's audio commentary for the Apollo 13 movie, at least one of the pieces of the spacecraft and/or launch vehicle was placed on a trajectory which would eventually cause it to crash into the sun. I thought that the LEM was one such piece.

I'm not sure what piece that would be, unless it was the Service Module. The S-IVB crashed into the moon (where it's impact was captured by the seismometers left by previous missions). The LM (whatever survived the fiery re-entry) was definitely brought down in a deep trench to the east of New Zealand, because of concerns about the nuclear power source for the ALSEP. The power source was enclosed in a canister that was designed to withstand the potential destruction of the launch vehicle ( :o ), so it almost certainly survived the re-entry and is lying at the bottom of the Pacific.

The service module was jettisoned about an hour (IIRC) prior to re-entry, but I don't know where it wound up.

An extraordinary story of courage and ingenuity.

ToSeek
2003-Jul-29, 12:14 AM
NASA placed the reentry of the LM so that any debris from it would wind up at the bottom of the Marianus Trench
According to Jim Lovell's audio commentary for the Apollo 13 movie, at least one of the pieces of the spacecraft and/or launch vehicle was placed on a trajectory which would eventually cause it to crash into the sun. I thought that the LEM was one such piece.

The only possibility for that is the S-IVB third stage, though it's more likely for it to go into solar orbit than to actually crash into the Sun. Most of the third stages were crashed into the Moon in order to set off the seismometers previously placed there.

AGN Fuel
2003-Jul-29, 01:17 AM
NASA placed the reentry of the LM so that any debris from it would wind up at the bottom of the Marianus Trench
According to Jim Lovell's audio commentary for the Apollo 13 movie, at least one of the pieces of the spacecraft and/or launch vehicle was placed on a trajectory which would eventually cause it to crash into the sun. I thought that the LEM was one such piece.

The only possibility for that is the S-IVB third stage, though it's more likely for it to go into solar orbit than to actually crash into the Sun. Most of the third stages were crashed into the Moon in order to set off the seismometers previously placed there.

That was the fate of the A-13 S-IVB also. When the Capcom advised Aquarius that the S-IVB had impacted the moon and was detected by the seismometers, it prompted Jim Lovell's wry comment that 'at least something went right on this mission' (paraphrased).

As a point of interest, the destruction of the S-IVB on the lunar surface actually aided the communications between Earth & Aquarius. The LM transmissions were on the same/similar frequency as the S-IVB telemetry, which subsequently caused some problems with comm. Those problems ceased very abruptly! :wink:

kucharek
2003-Jul-29, 05:50 AM
The sun is the object hardest to reach in the solar system. To get there, you've to cancel out Earth's orbit velocity of 30km/s. The only useful method currently is a fly-by at Jupiter. And as you are using him to brake, you'll give him back some of the momentum the Pioneers and Voyagers took away from him. The Society for the Preservation of Jupiter's Orbit would be glad...

The Apollo 8 and 10 S-IVB went into solar orbit, also the Apollo 12 one. It returned last year, spent some time again in Earth orbit and went away again. Google for J002E3.
As AGN already said, the A13 S-IVB crashed into the moon.
Houston: "By the way, Aquarius, we see the results of Apollo 12's seismometer. Looks like your third stage just hit the moon."
Lovell: "Well, at least something worked on this flight. Sure glad we didn't have a LM impact too!"

AGN Fuel
2003-Jul-29, 06:02 AM
I am probably wrong, but....
I think once the LMs linked with the Command Module, they were ejected to crash (but not burn), on Luna's surface. Their purpose was served, and they moved on/up/down/sideways?

Sorry Pinemartin, meant to reply to this one earlier.....

Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

kucharek
2003-Jul-29, 06:13 AM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

AGN Fuel
2003-Jul-29, 06:18 AM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

LOL!! :lol: I'd forgotten about that! I would have loved to have seen the reaction when that invoice was opened!

Russ
2003-Jul-29, 02:29 PM
At least we have *something* in Kansas besides wheat and tornadoes, I suppose.
My ex-wife! :o 8)
And fourty of my dollars in payment of a ticket for falling asleep at the wheel while driving through. :roll: ;)

ToSeek
2003-Jul-29, 02:36 PM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

Text (http://209.145.176.7/~090/awh/as13tow.html) for those who find the photocopy hard to read.

ToSeek
2003-Jul-29, 02:39 PM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

LOL!! :lol: I'd forgotten about that! I would have loved to have seen the reaction when that invoice was opened!

Supposedly North American responded with a bill for towing the LM to the Moon on Apollos 10, 11, and 12, though I haven't found any references for that.

johnb
2003-Jul-29, 03:44 PM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

LOL!! :lol: I'd forgotten about that! I would have loved to have seen the reaction when that invoice was opened!

Supposedly North American responded with a bill for towing the LM to the Moon on Apollos 10, 11, and 12, though I haven't found any references for that.

These are brilliant little gems guys.Ta .can`t wait till herself :roll: gets home she`ll love the invoice thingy!

johnb
2003-Jul-29, 03:52 PM
KANSAS! KANSAS! :o
WELL! Herself :roll: says that`s odd,well actually she said perfectly peculiar :roll: .
I have to agree though. A13 may not have made it to the moon but it demonstrated( spectacularly) just how good NASA was. The thing should be a shrine to the backroom boys.

Just 45 minutes away from me. If you'd like to see it and will be anywhere around town, shoot me an email. It is really worth seeing, as is all of the Kansas Cosmosphere.

Avian

Unfortunately USA is beyond my budget this or next year but thanks. Did get to the Science museum in London and have touched A10. Managed Florida in 96 and a shuttle launch :o =D> =D>

tracer
2003-Jul-29, 09:07 PM
Did get to the Science museum in London and have touched A10.
You touched an A10? The main cannon wasn't loaded with the standard depelted-uranium anti-tank bullets at the time, I hope.

Tuckerfan
2003-Jul-30, 02:57 AM
Jettison of the LM onto the Lunar surface was the standard procedure, but of course with Apollo 13, the LM served as an impromptu liferaft and returned to Earth still attached to the dormant Command Module. It was jettisoned only minutes before the CM re-entry.

Chalk one up for Grumman - it performed WAY beyond the specs.
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

LOL!! :lol: I'd forgotten about that! I would have loved to have seen the reaction when that invoice was opened!IIRC, they were not amused and folks caught a lot of flak over that.

freddo
2003-Jul-30, 03:28 AM
Did get to the Science museum in London and have touched A10.
You touched an A10? The main cannon wasn't loaded with the standard depelted-uranium anti-tank bullets at the time, I hope.

I'd be kind of worried if they did that at a Museum!!! :P :wink:

johnb
2003-Aug-01, 09:13 AM
Did get to the Science museum in London and have touched A10.
You touched an A10? The main cannon wasn't loaded with the standard depelted-uranium anti-tank bullets at the time, I hope.

The Apollo10 capsule was not a hands on display, but as there were`nt any curators about I ignored the Do Not Touch sign. I do`nt think they have a Warthog in the aviation section. By the way what technique would you use to de-pelt a uranium anti tank bullet? :P

kucharek
2003-Aug-01, 09:16 AM
And Grumman sent North American a bill (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/4411/apollo13.htm) for towing the CM...

LOL!! :lol: I'd forgotten about that! I would have loved to have seen the reaction when that invoice was opened!IIRC, they were not amused and folks caught a lot of flak over that.
From the referenced page:

North American Rockwell, on receiving the invoice, had its Houston auditor examine it. Then the public relations director of its Downey, Calif. space division, Earl Blount, with a poker face issued a statement. He said that Grumman, before issuing such and invoice, should remember that North American Rockwell had not received payment for ferrying LM's on previous trips to the moon.