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View Full Version : Any kind of wormhole/hyperspace/handwavium 'gate' impossible?



Damburger
2007-Nov-05, 01:53 PM
Lot's of science fiction features, as a solution to travelling faster than light, some kind of device that takes you from one point in space to another almost instantly, or transports you to some other dimension in which your journey is much shorter.

Given such a technology, couldn't one move mass from a lower to a higher orbit for an amount of energy that is independent of the gravitational potential energy you are gaining?

So does the fact you might be able to get energy for free completely exclude any such devices from being possible?

GOURDHEAD
2007-Nov-05, 02:18 PM
Although space bending and wormholes have been postulated, the definition and application of such technology seems to reside beyond the realm of most imaginations much less implementation plans. Then there's the problem of navigation in such a fantasy domain. Until the theorists can "show" the likelyhood (>50% probability of success) of such domain manipulation, we should stick to plasma engines and energy delivery systems to power them. It doesn't take much energy to wish the theorists good fortune.

Saluki
2007-Nov-05, 03:36 PM
Lot's of science fiction features, as a solution to travelling faster than light, some kind of device that takes you from one point in space to another almost instantly, or transports you to some other dimension in which your journey is much shorter.

I think if you search you will find some experiments that do just that (teleportation) at a subatomic scale. Scaling that up to macroscopic objects and interstellar distances would be a huge hurdle. Doing it to living organisms, and actually keeping them alive at the other side would be an even bigger hurdle. I suspect the energies involved would dwarf anything we currently produce if it is even possible.


Given such a technology, couldn't one move mass from a lower to a higher orbit for an amount of energy that is independent of the gravitational potential energy you are gaining?

I doubt these devices would get around the First Law of Thermodynamics. If the new location has a higher potential energy, then that energy would need to be included in the transfer process.


So does the fact you might be able to get energy for free completely exclude any such devices from being possible?

Again, I doubt they would get you "free energy".

Michael Noonan
2007-Nov-05, 03:46 PM
If one was to get a sufficiently large stack organised in the right conditions could the theory of worm holes and their associated properties be studied?

I was thinking of a timed charge and just how big the experiment would need to be to get a reading from one end of the plates to the other.

Of course it also leads to the inevitable question, what on earth do we do it the old adage of a short cut being the longest path between two points is correct :)

Noclevername
2007-Nov-05, 04:03 PM
In fiction, the writers can make any laws of physics they want. ;)

Damburger
2007-Nov-05, 05:37 PM
I think if you search you will find some experiments that do just that (teleportation) at a subatomic scale. Scaling that up to macroscopic objects and interstellar distances would be a huge hurdle. Doing it to living organisms, and actually keeping them alive at the other side would be an even bigger hurdle. I suspect the energies involved would dwarf anything we currently produce if it is even possible.


If you mean quantum entanglement, my understanding of that was that information could not be transferred instantly. That would also imply mass or energy cannot be either because then the presence/absence of mass or energy would constitute information.



I doubt these devices would get around the First Law of Thermodynamics. If the new location has a higher potential energy, then that energy would need to be included in the transfer process.

How would the starting location know how much energy was required to reach the end location? If it were the case, in order to send anything, matter or energy or subatomic particles, some information would have to have been first transmitted from the end point to the start point. But that can't happen until you've enough information at the end point to send a particle back to the start point without (potentially) violating thermodynamics. So you are stuck.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-05, 05:41 PM
Maybe such energy would not be truly free, but rather "free to me".

astromark
2007-Nov-05, 06:08 PM
In fiction, the writers can make any laws of physics they want. ;)

And that is the point I can not get past. As interesting as worm hole transporters might be. They are a fiction. Accelerating into a black hole to attempt a hyper space jump would be rather foolish. Spectacular, colorful and fast. The end result would be fatal every time. The science fiction writer needs to get across the galaxy quickly. Sleeping space craft are not interesting reading... I at this time can not perceive ever being warp speed capable.

Saluki
2007-Nov-05, 06:57 PM
How would the starting location know how much energy was required to reach the end location? If it were the case, in order to send anything, matter or energy or subatomic particles, some information would have to have been first transmitted from the end point to the start point. But that can't happen until you've enough information at the end point to send a particle back to the start point without (potentially) violating thermodynamics. So you are stuck.

I wasn't thinking in terms of information transfer at all. I was just thinking in terms of a pure energy balance. If you try to transfer an object with mass from an area of lower potential energy to an area of higher potential energy, that energy would have to come from somewhere, or else the transfer would fail, just as if you tried to throw a baseball into LEO. It simply would not make it because your arm is incapable of imparting enough energy to the ball.

Damburger
2007-Nov-05, 07:31 PM
I wasn't thinking in terms of information transfer at all. I was just thinking in terms of a pure energy balance. If you try to transfer an object with mass from an area of lower potential energy to an area of higher potential energy, that energy would have to come from somewhere, or else the transfer would fail, just as if you tried to throw a baseball into LEO. It simply would not make it because your arm is incapable of imparting enough energy to the ball.

But the balls knows the potential energy of LEO because of information carried through a field. If a massive object appeared in orbit a fraction of a second before you threw the ball, its behaviour would be as if the object wasn't there until it entered its light cone.

John Mendenhall
2007-Nov-05, 08:07 PM
In fiction, the writers can make any laws of physics they want. ;)

Sort of like ATM?

Swift
2007-Nov-05, 10:00 PM
Given such a technology, couldn't one move mass from a lower to a higher orbit for an amount of energy that is independent of the gravitational potential energy you are gaining?

So does the fact you might be able to get energy for free completely exclude any such devices from being possible?
Larry Niven's science fiction had a teleportation device called a displacement booth.

Mr. Niven has wrote his theory on teleportation in one of his stories:

"But I needed a theory that would allow instantaneous transportation and would still leave a passenger intact. What I came up with was a kind of super-neutrino. The displacement booth converts its cargo into an elementary particle of no rest mass, a relativistic mass equal to the weight of the cargo (for conservation of matter), an internal structure complex enough to carry the quantum states of every elementary particle in the cargo, and a neutrino's ability to penetrate almost any barrier. I called it a transition particle."

From here (http://physicsforums.com/archive/index.php/t-44179.html)

In his science fiction, the device was used to teleport people around the Earth and had to compensate for such things as changes in potential energy (altitude) and kinetic energy (as you changed latitude).

Jerry
2007-Nov-06, 08:02 PM
Nothing in the universe is completely compliant with the laws of thermoldynamics. So worm holes cannot be ruled out on these grounds.

Worm holes are purely science fiction developments without any theoretical backing. There is no predictor, there is no evidence. There is no way to know whether they exist or not; but without evidence or theoretical roots, the answer is they are fictional.

John Mendenhall
2007-Nov-06, 08:27 PM
Nothing in the universe is completely compliant with the laws of thermoldynamics.



Really?

Noclevername
2007-Nov-06, 08:56 PM
Really?

The laws of thermoldynamics have to do with the transfer of spores on bathroom walls. They will always move from the tiles with greater spore potential to lesser.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-06, 08:57 PM
Worm holes are purely science fiction developments without any theoretical backing.

Except for all the theories about them. ;)

astromark
2007-Nov-07, 08:59 AM
A worm hole is that small hole that a worm has ejected a small pile if soil out of. It being the worm mound. Some times called a casting.
The worm hole is where the thrush is looking for that worm... It does not look good for the worm right now...:(Now its just a hole in the ground without that worm. The early bird gets the worm... Not a lot to do about transporting across the universe, Hmmm...:)
Relativity, Worm holes and worms.... As yet only science fiction has found another type of worm hole. I trust they have considered the thrush.

eburacum45
2007-Nov-07, 10:00 AM
Worm holes are purely science fiction developments without any theoretical backing.

Except for all the theories about them. ;)

Here are some of the theoretical papers on arxiv about wormholes; obviuosly there is some theory behind them, but no evidence for them exists.

http://aps.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9805019
http://front.math.ucdavis.edu/0508.4460
http://front.math.ucdavis.edu/0401.4423
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9702/9702043v1.pdf

A paper that suggests that negative energy might be difficult or impossible to use in practice, by Ford and Roman
http://www.citebase.org/fulltext?format=application%2Fpdf&identifier=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Agr-qc%2F9901074

Roman, in association with Chris Fewster from York! yay! has published a paper that isn't available on arxiv any more, about the stability of wormholes: their conclusion- not very stable at all.

So yes, there is plenty of theory out there. Strange, for something that seems so unlikely and esoteric; but I suppose that if all the theory finally leads to a working wormhole there would be Nobel prize in it...

astromark
2007-Nov-08, 05:56 AM
the previous post might supply some links of interest... and yes I have looked at it all. This is not proof of the existence of a worm hole. Under no circumstances have any or just one been observed let alone reproduced.
Just because some well educated fellow suggests some theory might lead to this outcome. This is as yet not supported by fact. Still, fiction has a place. Not in the science books. Look under the fiction section of your local library

mansouryar
2007-Nov-14, 01:29 PM
http://www.scientificarabian.com/spacewarp.html :shifty:

astromark
2007-Nov-14, 06:29 PM
As silly as they at first sound, and excepting that this is really ATM and not science as she is...

There are other possibilities to explain dark energy and dark matter. When under test conditions some sub atomic particle does something unexpected like disappearing. When the expected mass of an object is found to be less than its gravity would have indercated... Some things have been observed that do not match the expected.

I previously have said that worm holes and other dimensions are not supported by any evidence. I still think that... but, I except that it is a possibility that parallel other realities exist and at times overlap with this universe we are part of... Oh I did not want to say this.

Until we develop better ways of answering these questions we are not going to answer this question with certainty. We simply do not know it all.

Having made this unsupported assertion I Now wish to convey that I would much rather prefer to say, No its all rubbish and just fiction..., but that may not be the truth.

What I want is actual evidence of or at the least a explanation acceptable to science. I will need to wait for that.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-14, 06:59 PM
... Oh I did not want to say this.


It's okay, the hard part is over. :)

trinitree88
2007-Nov-14, 07:53 PM
......the truth.

What I want is actual evidence of or at the least a explanation acceptable to science. I will need to wait for that.

Astromark. I think that will be a very looooonnnngggg wait.....:shifty:pete.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-14, 08:44 PM
Astromark. I think that will be a very looooonnnngggg wait.....:shifty:pete.

Unless there's time travel, then the wait has already been over for a while. :)