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nitrogen
2007-Nov-26, 09:26 AM
Hello there. I go by "Nitrogen" on most forums I'm on.

I like bringing science to the ignorant.

The incident that made me finally join and say hi to you folks went like this:

You know those esurance commercials talking about how people put 2 tons or whatever of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere?

Some wingnut on another board I know was going off about how that would take way more than the average driving. He was assuming that a gallon of gas, weighing 6lbs made 6lbs of co2. Then when I told him, no, its more like 20 lbs of co2, he went haywayre. "THAT VIOLATES CONSERVATION OF MASS HOW CAN YOU MAKE MORE WASTE THAN EXISTS???"

Uhh.

Apparently I passed 5th grade chemestry, and he didn't. I tried to explain how oxygen weighs more than hydrogen, and how the chemical reaction works, etc...

Sometimes, facts have a liberal bias I guess.

Anyway, HI everyone.

The_Radiation_Specialist
2007-Nov-26, 11:57 AM
Hey, Welcome to BAUT.

I know how it feels. In high school I had to "prove" to a classmate the Weak Equivalence Principle using David Scott's method. The experiment was about pendulums and she thought the mass of the bob affected its period, reasoning stubbornly "A fat person would fall faster than a thin person". Needless to say neither the equations I showed nor the practical experiment I did convinced her, and I gave up.

You really shouldn't waste your time when people actively refuse to accept science.

sarongsong
2007-Nov-26, 12:19 PM
I don't remember "5th grade chemistry"---what school was this? :)

torque of the town
2007-Nov-26, 01:29 PM
Welcome to BAUT.

I remember trying to explain that it was Newtons third law that gave a rocket it's thrust, and not the "flame pushing against the ground" as this woo woo claimed.

But surely if what you are saying is correct I replied, when the rocket reached
the the maximum extent of it's Exhaust/flame it would hover at that point until all the fuel was spent, and then it would fall back to earth.

Dont be silly they said by this time the rocket is moving fast enough for the flame to push against the air.....:(

Remember Moore's second law, once a fruitcake always a fruitcake!

Enjoy the forum

David

Swift
2007-Nov-26, 02:17 PM
Hi Nitrogen, welcome to BAUT. Mind if we just call you "N2"? ;)

Bringing science to the masses is a noble cause, but it is an uphill battle. Enjoy the fight.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-26, 05:01 PM
Welcome, it's always good to hear about someone promoting good science!

Sometimes, facts have a liberal bias I guess.

Actually, bias is non-denominational. People all over the political spectrum have been twisting science to promote their agendas and ideas for as long as there's been science, the liberals don't hold a patent on it.

AndreH
2007-Nov-26, 05:12 PM
Hello there. I go by "Nitrogen" on most forums I'm on.

I like bringing science to the ignorant.

The incident that made me finally join and say hi to you folks went like this:

You know those esurance commercials talking about how people put 2 tons or whatever of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere?

Some wingnut on another board I know was going off about how that would take way more than the average driving. He was assuming that a gallon of gas, weighing 6lbs made 6lbs of co2. Then when I told him, no, its more like 20 lbs of co2, he went haywayre. "THAT VIOLATES CONSERVATION OF MASS HOW CAN YOU MAKE MORE WASTE THAN EXISTS???"

Uhh.

Apparently I passed 5th grade chemestry, and he didn't. I tried to explain how oxygen weighs more than hydrogen, and how the chemical reaction works, etc...

Sometimes, facts have a liberal bias I guess.

Anyway, HI everyone.

Welcome also from Germany!

He I know what you mean. As I am into sport shooting since more than 20 years: How often do you think I tried to explain the bullet starts falling to the ground from the very same moment it leaves the barrel. And that, if fired horizontally it needs exactly the same time to reach the ground as if simply dropped from the same height. Sighhhh....

korjik
2007-Nov-26, 05:15 PM
Hi Nitrogen, welcome to BAUT. Mind if we just call you "N2"? ;)

Bringing science to the masses is a noble cause, but it is an uphill battle. Enjoy the fight.

Only if his last name is Molecule :)

SeanF
2007-Nov-26, 05:18 PM
And that, if fired horizontally it needs exactly the same time to reach the ground as if simply dropped from the same height. Sighhhh....
Well, actually, air resistance and the spin of the bullet causes it to lift slightly immediately upon leaving the barrel. Plus, curvature of the Earth means that the surface drops away from the bullet as the bullet travels away from the gun.

So a fired bullet actually does take longer to hit the ground than a dropped bullet would... ;)

AndreH
2007-Nov-26, 05:27 PM
Well, actually, air resistance and the spin of the bullet causes it to lift slightly immediately upon leaving the barrel. Plus, curvature of the Earth means that the surface drops away from the bullet as the bullet travels away from the gun.

So a fired bullet actually does take longer to hit the ground than a dropped bullet would... ;)

How does it come that I knew someone would nitpick on air resistance?:) But I never would have gone so far he would also bring up curvature of the Earth!:doh::lol:

Again Nitrogen: Welcome to BAUT!;)

Neverfly
2007-Nov-26, 08:26 PM
Yeah.... I uhh... I think the curvature of the Earth would only come into play if it was a REALLY BIG GUN...

Or if the Earth was absolutely flat. But it isn't...

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-26, 08:47 PM
Hello there. I go by "Nitrogen" on most forums I'm on.

I like bringing science to the ignorant.

The incident that made me finally join and say hi to you folks went like this:

You know those esurance commercials talking about how people put 2 tons or whatever of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere?

Some wingnut on another board I know was going off about how that would take way more than the average driving. He was assuming that a gallon of gas, weighing 6lbs made 6lbs of co2. Then when I told him, no, its more like 20 lbs of co2, he went haywayre. "THAT VIOLATES CONSERVATION OF MASS HOW CAN YOU MAKE MORE WASTE THAN EXISTS???"

Uhh.

Apparently I passed 5th grade chemestry, and he didn't. I tried to explain how oxygen weighs more than hydrogen, and how the chemical reaction works, etc...

Sometimes, facts have a liberal bias I guess.

Anyway, HI everyone.

Are you a bot for the oil companies?

SeanF
2007-Nov-26, 09:04 PM
Yeah.... I uhh... I think the curvature of the Earth would only come into play if it was a REALLY BIG GUN...

Or if the Earth was absolutely flat. But it isn't...
Well, "exactly the same time to reach the ground" demands a locally flat topography, so don't blame me for the "absolutely flat" requirement. As for the curvature, I would think it would come into play literally within millimeters - although the effect is certainly very small over very small distances. :)

Noclevername
2007-Nov-26, 09:08 PM
Yeah.... I uhh... I think the curvature of the Earth would only come into play if it was a REALLY BIG GUN...

Or if the Earth was absolutely flat. But it isn't...

Ask any Navy ship's gunner or heavy artillerist if the Earth's curvature makes a difference. It does to them.

AndreH
2007-Nov-26, 09:28 PM
Ask any Navy ship's gunner or heavy artillerist if the Earth's curvature makes a difference. It does to them.

I guess those guns are already called cannons. Ok than here we go:

Radius of the earth: 6370 km (rounded, and yes I know it can be different depending where you are because Earth is not a sphere.

length of hand gun shooting range in my local club: 25 m

I am to tired to do the math now. Maybe tomorrow.

KaiYeves
2007-Nov-26, 09:44 PM
Hi, nitrogen! I like to bring science to the ignorant as well. Someday, I hope to bring archeology to millions like Zahi Hawass.
I'm sure you'll love BAUT!

John Mendenhall
2007-Nov-26, 09:44 PM
I guess those guns are already called cannons. Ok than here we go:

Radius of the earth: 6370 km (rounded, and yes I know it can be different depending where you are because Earth is not a sphere.

length of hand gun shooting range in my local club: 25 m

I am to tired to do the math now. Maybe tomorrow.

As I recall, about 8 inches in the first mile, around two feet in the second mile, and of course it grows quickly.

SeanF
2007-Nov-26, 09:55 PM
I guess those guns are already called cannons. Ok than here we go:

Radius of the earth: 6370 km (rounded, and yes I know it can be different depending where you are because Earth is not a sphere.

length of hand gun shooting range in my local club: 25 m

I am to tired to do the math now. Maybe tomorrow.
I get 0.00005 meters. :) Of course, the question is how much longer it will take for the bullet to fall to the ground, and it's not going to do that in 25 meters.

tofu
2007-Nov-26, 10:59 PM
Some wingnut ...

facts have a liberal bias I guess.


be careful. My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats. There's a famous thread over on democraticunderground.org where someone "proved" that the WTC was controlled demolition by using a model made of chicken wire. There are idiots in every political ideology.

http://www.maj.com/gallery/tofu/babb/4_fire.jpg

Ilya
2007-Nov-27, 02:53 AM
I like bringing science to the ignorant.

My sincere admiration. You are better man than I am, or at least more patient!

Damien Evans
2007-Nov-27, 05:06 AM
be careful. My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats. There's a famous thread over on democraticunderground.org where someone "proved" that the WTC was controlled demolition by using a model made of chicken wire. There are idiots in every political ideology.

http://www.maj.com/gallery/tofu/babb/4_fire.jpg

Ah yes, the chicken wire incident, much mirth was had with that over at JREF...

Welcome to the forum Nitrogen!

Maksutov
2007-Nov-27, 07:33 AM
Welcome to the BAUT, nitrogen!

Read the FAQs (http://www.bautforum.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq), especially the rules (http://www.bautforum.com/about-baut/32864-rules-posting-board.html#post564845), and have fun.

And remember, any time you post something humorous, you will need to sign it "N2O".

Jens
2007-Nov-27, 08:00 AM
My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats.

I just read in the news about some poll that said that 2/3 of Americans believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy or something like that! Now the problem with that calculation is that if it true, it means that you are wrong, because 2/3 of Americans are definitely not liberal democrats. Maybe 1/4 at best. I suppose it depends on the conspiracy. I think that most of the people who believe in "black helicopters" are conservative republicans.

Tog
2007-Nov-27, 08:02 AM
Well, actually, air resistance and the spin of the bullet causes it to lift slightly immediately upon leaving the barrel. Plus, curvature of the Earth means that the surface drops away from the bullet as the bullet travels away from the gun.

So a fired bullet actually does take longer to hit the ground than a dropped bullet would... ;)

And don't forget that almost all bullets leave the barrel of the gun on an upward path, crossing the line of sight before reaching the highest point, then crossing the line of sight a second time on the way back down. This lets a rifle be "dead on" at two different ranges.

As for the air causing lift (anecdote ahead), when my dad was in Vietnam, his job was crew chief on a Huey. He found that shooting the M-60 out one door made it hit quite a bit higher than shooting out of the other door. He eventually attributed this to the spin of the bullet "climbing up" or "burrowing under" the oncoming air from the moving helicopter. Oooohhh... I smell a Mythbusters episode.

AndreH
2007-Nov-27, 09:15 AM
I get 0.00005 meters. :) Of course, the question is how much longer it will take for the bullet to fall to the ground, and it's not going to do that in 25 meters.

You are of course right.

Assuming a 9 mm Para or something we have about 350 m/sec - 400 m/sec(rough numbers only and depending on load and bullet weight).

If I assume horizontal firing as in my first post (no air resistance!), and g approximated by 10 m/secē. Further the heigth of the barrel above ground 1,5 m we obtain the bullet of the 9 mil will fly about 219 m only!
(It is a little baffling, but that is because in real life you do not shoot horizontal normally).
The curvature of earth on the first 220 m is aprroximately: 4 mm

In other words: If, in a first approximation you calculate the time the bullet needs to hit ground when fired horizontally is 0,0008 seconds longer than if dropped from 1,5 m. The mistake is about 0.15 % !!!!

Many Astronomers would be happy to have such accurate results.

(In reality it is ofcourse even more complicated, because if we take in account the curvature, we also have to skip the assumption of a homogenious gravitational field).

And heh: What about Coriolis effects?;)

PS: I did not counter check the above results. Just calculated them once. Someone bothers to check?

torque of the town
2007-Nov-27, 09:30 AM
What about Coriolis effects?



Thats why my grouping is always crap.....

AndreH
2007-Nov-27, 09:34 AM
What about Coriolis effects?



Thats why my grouping is always crap.....

:lol:

I usually blame the light on the range......

Tog
2007-Nov-27, 10:01 AM
PS: I did not counter check the above results. Just calculated them once. Someone bothers to check?

Using a Speer Gold Dot 9mm. 124 grain bullet at 1150, with a zero distance of 10 yards (smallest it will go), my ballistics program gives the following:

Maximum height above the line of sight: 0.03"
At 190 Yards, the bullet will have dropped 57.84 inches and flown for 584.5 milliseconds.
This bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.134, which is really low, as in bad.

If I turn up the BC to 0.634 I get a drop of 59.06" in 210 yards which takes 574.4 ms.

According to the program I have, a bullet with less drag will drop at a slower rate.

The Program is RCBS Load.

AndreH
2007-Nov-27, 10:11 AM
Seems the milliseconds and distances you obtain are in agreement with what I had.

Now the only question is if got the effect of the curvature right. (4 mm in first219 m)

sarongsong
2007-Nov-27, 10:17 AM
I just read in the news about some poll that said that 2/3 of Americans believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy or something like that!......or "something like that"...?
Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll)

Damien Evans
2007-Nov-27, 11:59 AM
...or "something like that"...?
Third of Americans suspect 9-11 government conspiracy (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll)

Actually, what that really says is about 400 people suspect conspiracy, which is about right, unless you include internet sockpuppets

Donnie B.
2007-Nov-27, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by Noclevername http://www.bautforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/67419-hi-i-like-bring-science-ignorant.html#post1120849)
Ask any Navy ship's gunner or heavy artillerist if the Earth's curvature makes a difference. It does to them.
I guess those guns are already called cannons.
Actually, naval guns are normally called... guns.

Unless you're giving a technical description, that is; in that case modern naval artillery pieces would be called rifles.

Neverfly
2007-Nov-27, 01:00 PM
Ask any Navy ship's gunner or heavy artillerist if the Earth's curvature makes a difference. It does to them.

HHB 3-82 1CD- Yes, I'm artillary...

And like I said- Really big gun...

If firing my m-9, I'm not really going to care about the curvature of the Earth. Especially if there's a hill nearby. And the ground is all uneven.
Sheesh.

AndreH
2007-Nov-27, 01:24 PM
Actually, naval guns are normally called... guns.

Unless you're giving a technical description, that is; in that case modern naval artillery pieces would be called rifles.

Again learned something new. The day was not invaine.

I also checked my online Lexikon. It also has ordnance (beside of gun and, third place canon). What is that used for? (I herd the term "delivering ordnance" before).


Neverfly:
HHB 3-82 1CD- Yes, I'm artillary...

So you do not distinguish between friend and foe? You only know worthwile targets?:) (Inproper translation of a German saying usually brought up by infantrists referring to friendly fire incidents)

Neverfly
2007-Nov-27, 01:32 PM
HHB 3-82 1CD- Yes, I'm artillary...

So you do not distinguish between friend and foe? You only know worthwile targets?:) (Inproper translation of a German saying usually brought up by infantrists referring to friendly fire incidents)

We call the guys in the Infantry "crunches"

Cuz they crunch when we run them over in the truck;)

AndreH
2007-Nov-27, 01:38 PM
We call the guys in the Infantry "crunches"

Cuz they crunch when we run them over in the truck;)

:)Try to remeber that. I will try the term when I next time meet Donal (a friend of mine who was in the first Gulf war as a howitzer commander) and check his reaction.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-27, 02:16 PM
And vehicles are called "fuel tanks on wheels". A truck can't duck. :D

Swift
2007-Nov-27, 03:12 PM
I just read in the news about some poll that said that 2/3 of Americans believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy or something like that!
Well of course it was a conspiracy. 20 or so men conspired to hijack four planes and crash them into various targets, including the WTC and the Pentagon. They were secretly funded by an international terrorist group. Or did you have something else in mind.

Laguna
2007-Nov-27, 03:25 PM
Welcome nitrogen and remember that the problem with teaching ignorant people is that they are, well, ignorant.

sarongsong
2007-Nov-27, 07:10 PM
Actually, what that really says is about 400 people suspect conspiracy, which is about right...

Oh.
1/3 = 2/3 ---interesting.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Nov-27, 08:08 PM
be careful. My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats. There's a famous thread over on democraticunderground.org where someone "proved" that the WTC was controlled demolition by using a model made of chicken wire. There are idiots in every political ideology.

http://www.maj.com/gallery/tofu/babb/4_fire.jpg

There's the problem then - their experimental model does not match the stated hypothesis. That's not chicken wire. Chicken wire has a honeycomb-looking structure. The stuff in that picture is properly known as hardware cloth. What is proven here is that had they built the WTC of hardware cloth, it would still be standing.

And that is all I have to say about that.

Donnie B.
2007-Nov-27, 09:54 PM
Again learned something new. The day was not invaine.

I also checked my online Lexikon. It also has ordnance (beside of gun and, third place canon). What is that used for? (I herd the term "delivering ordnance" before).
Ordnance is a little bit slippery. It can refer to cannon (collecively), as in "The ship's ordnance consisted of nine fifteen-inch guns, ten five-inch guns, and twelve anti-aircraft batteries." Or it can mean cannon along with their equipment and ammunition, e.g. "Move that ordnance to the right flank!". Or it can mean a branch of a military organization that procures and stores weapons, supplies, etc.

Oh, and "in vain" is two words, with no 'e'. ;)

mike alexander
2007-Nov-28, 04:17 PM
Not a weaponry expert, but reading history I had the impression that 'cannon' originally referred to a smooth-bore, muzzle loading weapon.

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-28, 06:49 PM
be careful. My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats. There's a famous thread over on democraticunderground.org where someone "proved" that the WTC was controlled demolition by using a model made of chicken wire. There are idiots in every political ideology.

Since most "Liberals" are in fact, college educated, as most colleges seem to "Liberalize" people, I'd say, there are less idiots on the liberal side, as they have taken the time to deduct and examine their beliefs, rather than, "It's in a book, so it must be true".

And most conservatives probably believe anything the government tells them. Why would the government lie? It's full of Republicans.

So in truth, I've got other things to do than debate poliitical idealologies, like make me some eggs. Yum!!!


http://www.maj.com/gallery/tofu/babb/4_fire.jpg


I support any scientific research that involves the use of fire.

Chip
2007-Nov-28, 07:18 PM
be careful. My experience suggests that the majority of apollo hoax believers and 9/11 truthers are liberal democrats...There are idiots in every political ideology.

Then why pick on liberals in your post? Be careful indeed. A lot of Dems post here. Leave your politics out.

Infinite Horizons
2007-Nov-28, 08:04 PM
Hmmmm... Does this mean the doughnut I eat - which is about - I don't know - 300 grams say - is answerable for the two stone I put on in weight?
D'oh

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-28, 08:20 PM
Hmmmm... Does this mean the doughnut I eat - which is about - I don't know - 300 grams say - is answerable for the two stone I put on in weight?
D'oh

Maybe you should set your doughnut on fire. You know, for science.

KaiYeves
2007-Nov-28, 08:25 PM
I support any scientific research that involves the use of fire.
Let me guess, the Human Torch is your favorite superhero.
Am I right?

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-28, 09:07 PM
Let me guess, the Human Torch is your favorite superhero.
Am I right?

Ronald Reagan is my favorite superhero.

PetersCreek
2007-Nov-28, 09:26 PM
...remember that the problem with teaching ignorant people is that they are, well, ignorant.

Pardon me while I resort to a monosyllabic response: DUH! :lol:

Everyone...you and I included...are ignorant of those things we must be taught. The real problem is teaching people who think they already know it all. I'd take an eager, ignorant student any day.

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-28, 09:35 PM
The only thing I know is that I know nothing at all.

Jim
2007-Nov-28, 09:36 PM
... Leave your politics out.

That's good advice. Let's all follow it.

KaiYeves
2007-Nov-29, 12:43 AM
Ronald Reagan is my favorite superhero.
Is that Marvel, Image or DC? ;-)

Donnie B.
2007-Nov-29, 10:02 PM
Is that Marvel, Image or DC? ;-)
Disney.

Noclevername
2007-Nov-29, 10:04 PM
Disney.

Well, he did move like the Animatronic Lincoln at times...

KaiYeves
2007-Nov-29, 10:10 PM
Disney.
Okay, I'm cool with that. Disney might be the one entertainment brand name I like hearing better than Marvel.

pghnative
2007-Nov-29, 10:15 PM
Well, actually, air resistance and the spin of the bullet causes it to lift slightly immediately upon leaving the barrel.
off-topic (but then, there isn't much on-topic here), but if the spin is parallel to the ground, why would there be a net deflection up? Seems like it would just as likely go left/right up or down.

Halcyon Dayz
2007-Nov-30, 12:15 AM
off-topic (but then, there isn't much on-topic here), but if the spin is parallel to the ground, why would there be a net deflection up? Seems like it would just as likely go left/right up or down.
IIRC, it doesn't.
The sight and the barrel are not parallel.
The projectile is fired at a slightly upward angle.

SeanF
2007-Nov-30, 02:38 PM
off-topic (but then, there isn't much on-topic here), but if the spin is parallel to the ground, why would there be a net deflection up? Seems like it would just as likely go left/right up or down.
You're right. I think I may have been misinformed... :doh:

It's probably what Halcyon said - when the sights are level, the barrel isn't - combined with the kick back tipping the barrel up even farther that causes the initial upward trajectory.

Infinite Horizons
2007-Nov-30, 02:59 PM
Maybe you should set your doughnut on fire. You know, for science.

Did that... burnt the house town - upset the local fire brigade - seriously annoyed the neighbours - added to my carbon footprint - but!! - didn't put on the two stone:)

RalofTyr
2007-Nov-30, 10:17 PM
Nitrogen, do you bring beer to the thursty?

sarongsong
2007-Dec-02, 07:49 PM
nitrogen is gone (http://www.bautforum.com/search.php?searchid=964608)...

Jim
2007-Dec-02, 11:37 PM
No, still there, just hasn't posted since 11/28.

KaiYeves
2007-Dec-03, 10:19 PM
Is Neverfly still here?

RalofTyr
2007-Dec-03, 11:23 PM
Is Neverfly still here?

He's in Van Rijn's backyard.

Neverfly
2007-Dec-04, 03:28 AM
Is Neverfly still here?

Union required break. ;)

AndreH
2007-Dec-04, 05:15 PM
Ordnance is a little bit slippery. It can refer to cannon (collecively), as in "The ship's ordnance consisted of nine fifteen-inch guns, ten five-inch guns, and twelve anti-aircraft batteries." Or it can mean cannon along with their equipment and ammunition, e.g. "Move that ordnance to the right flank!". Or it can mean a branch of a military organization that procures and stores weapons, supplies, etc.

Oh, and "in vain" is two words, with no 'e'. ;)

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation! And I try to remember the proper writing of in vain:o

KaiYeves
2007-Dec-04, 08:22 PM
Union required break.
All is well, then.