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Argos
2007-Nov-30, 02:43 PM
I love meteorology and Iīm always exploring the globe.

It seems that Minnesota is the place where temps can drop the most in the US, followed by North Dakota [on a yearly basis]. Does it hold?

Also, Iīve seen that Canada is considerably colder than Siberia in this beginning of winter, which goes against common notions. Would you like to say something about it?

For general purposes I use Weather Underground info, and I havenīt looked for numbers to compare yet.

:)

sarongsong
2007-Nov-30, 02:52 PM
Where do Alaska and New Hampshire rate?

Moose
2007-Nov-30, 04:02 PM
It seems that Minnesota is the place where temps can drop the most in the US, followed by North Dakota [on a yearly basis]. Does it hold?

I also have to question whether or not you're omitting Alaska.


Also, Iīve seen that Canada is considerably colder than Siberia in this beginning of winter, which goes against common notions. Would you like to say something about it?

Not so surprising. Canada's population is in the south of the country, where the arctic air (and the Hudson Bay contributes moisture) tends to drive our winters. Siberia may be getting its air masses from the much dryer continental mass southward.

Moisture counts very big in terms of cold. It's why Maritime -25Cs feel colder than Minnesota's -35Cs.

Parrothead
2007-Nov-30, 04:03 PM
The Siberia vs Canada comparison, I'm going to hazard a guess that there may be some gulf stream influence in those numbers.

ETA: I guess it should be Gulf stream and other ocean current influence.

Argos
2007-Nov-30, 04:21 PM
I also have to question whether or not you're omitting Alaska.

Yeah. I mean the lower 48th.


Where do Alaska and New Hampshire rate?

New Hamphire... Thatīs another entry in the list. :)

Iīd guess that the far northeast is pretty cold too, sharing the climate of the Maritimes.

Yeah, Moose, humidity is a factor as far as the subjective perception is concerned. But I was referring to the absolute temperatures.

Doodler
2007-Nov-30, 06:59 PM
For half a second, I read the title "Coldest American state - Canada". My first thought was, "About time". ;)

Argos
2007-Nov-30, 07:10 PM
Good one. ;)

The Supreme Canuck
2007-Dec-01, 02:57 AM
Just try it, Doodler - c.f. War of 1812.

And on topic - Ottawa is on average the world's second coldest capital, after Ulan Bator. I remember one winter where it was -55 C with the windchill. And they still sent us out for recess. Good times.

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-01, 04:07 AM
Minnesota is so cold because it is so far from the mediating effects of the oceans (same applies to the Dakotas). Although Alaska is farther north, much of it is near the water, so except for the interior, it is less cold than the north-central states.

novaderrik
2007-Dec-01, 04:37 AM
it's been minus 5-8 degrees Fahrenheit the last 3 mornings when i went out to my car at 6 am to go to work.
that's pretty dang cold for this time of year- on a different year, we could have had a sub zero thanksgiving.

Argos
2007-Dec-01, 12:00 PM
Man, those MN temps are incredible. :)

Right now [10:00 am in Brazil] it is -30 C in Quebec! The south pole is warmer than that this time of year...

Argos
2007-Dec-01, 12:11 PM
Minnesota is so cold because it is so far from the mediating effects of the oceans (same applies to the Dakotas). Although Alaska is farther north, much of it is near the water, so except for the interior, it is less cold than the north-central states.

Yeah. In south america, at the corresponding latitude, you donīt get these extreme cold and heat. Both the S. Atlantic and Pacific are cool. At the latitude of São Paulo [23 S] the ocean peaks at only 24 C in summer and 16 C in winter. In the Gulf of Mexico the waters get to 26-28 C in summer. Even the Carolinas have 26 waters, at the 35th parallel. In comparison, at the latitude of Buenos Aires the ocean temperature is never above 16 C.

Jeff Root
2007-Dec-01, 02:47 PM
Minnesota is so cold because it is so far from the mediating effects of
the oceans (same applies to the Dakotas). Although Alaska is farther
north, much of it is near the water, so except for the interior, it is less
cold than the north-central states.
There is water all over the place here, too, but it is technically
advanced water: solid-state.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis ("water-city")

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-01, 03:45 PM
Yeah, I've been to the "land of 16,438 (at last count) lakes "!

Frantic Freddie
2007-Dec-01, 03:57 PM
I've suprised a lot of people who think that because New Mexico is desert it never really gets cold here,last year we had several days when it was -5F (-18C) at 6 am & never got over 25F (-4C) all day.

torque of the town
2007-Dec-01, 04:13 PM
I've suprised a lot of people who think that because New Mexico is desert it never really gets cold here,last year we had several days when it was -5F (-18C) at 6 am & never got over 25F (-4C) all day.


Wow, you could hang Xmas baubles on the cactus very festive :lol:

Frantic Freddie
2007-Dec-01, 04:41 PM
Wow, you could hang Xmas baubles on the cactus very festive :lol:

You can hang baubles on the cactus,I'll stand by with the tweezers & bandages :lol:

Torsten
2007-Dec-01, 05:55 PM
I've suprised a lot of people who think that because New Mexico is desert it never really gets cold here,last year we had several days when it was -5F (-18C) at 6 am & never got over 25F (-4C) all day.

Hey, I remember your snow picture post (http://www.bautforum.com/875523-post83.html) from a year ago.

Here, -22C this morning. Found the block heater cord on the new truck, right where it was supposed to be. Plugged it in and . . . ahh, there's that familiar, comforting sound of engine coolant being heated. Thank goodness for that.

Snow arrived almost a month ago. Last winter it stayed in my yard for 177 days.

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-01, 05:57 PM
I've suprised a lot of people who think that because New Mexico is desert it never really gets cold here,last year we had several days when it was -5F (-18C) at 6 am & never got over 25F (-4C) all day.
By very definition, deserts, without the moderating effects of humidity, have wide swings of temperature. Both daily and annually.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-01, 07:07 PM
You can hang baubles on the cactus,I'll stand by with the tweezers & bandages :lol:

It's not hanging them on the cactus that's the killer, it's taking them off afterwards.

Doodler
2007-Dec-01, 10:56 PM
Just try it, Doodler - c.f. War of 1812.

We did, our teeth are well and duly kicked. :)

As for these temps, man, as far as I'm concerned, life comes to an end at 0.

*teeth chattering*

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-01, 11:51 PM
As for these temps, man, as far as I'm concerned, life comes to an end at 0.
C or F?

Maksutov
2007-Dec-01, 11:57 PM
I've suprised a lot of people who think that because New Mexico is desert it never really gets cold here,last year we had several days when it was -5F (-18C) at 6 am & never got over 25F (-4C) all day.Having hiked through various deserts and camped out overnight, I know what you mean. The radiation cooling is extreme, meaning that, even in the summer, once the sun goes down, things cool off in a hurry.

There are non-desert parts of New Mexico that get pretty cold too, such as Taos and a certain mountain called Wheeler Peak. Both can get pretty chilly. Not to be confused with chile (yum!).

Frantic Freddie
2007-Dec-02, 01:00 AM
Hey, I remember your snow picture post (http://www.bautforum.com/875523-post83.html) from a year ago.

.


I didn't post the later pics:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/franticfreddie/DSCN0777.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/franticfreddie/DSCN0775-1.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/franticfreddie/DSCN0751.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/franticfreddie/DSCN0761.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a221/franticfreddie/DSCN0784.jpg

:lol::lol:

Doodler
2007-Dec-02, 03:25 AM
C or F?
F, I'm not a complete coward to the cold. ;)

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-02, 05:19 AM
F, I'm not a complete coward to the cold. ;)
I used to be fairly immune to the cold, but after 30+ years in central Texas ) not to mention being closer to 60 than I wish to admit), 50 F (10 C) is plenty cold enough for me!

Maksutov
2007-Dec-02, 05:31 AM
Now being a sexagenarian (I'm no longer allowed in fundamentalist churches :)), I nevertheless love cold weather as much as I ever did.

Any time the outside gets into the 20s and below, I'm there. Usually makes for great observing weather.

And in the mid-south, it also means no one is going to be bothering you about your "peculiar" lifestyle, i.e., "Whatayall doin freezin out heeyar? Whyarnya inside watchin' wrasslin 'n NASCAR where it's warum?"

Yup. No raidnecks out in the cold weather. They'all's inside huddled around the space heater.

Nick Theodorakis
2007-Dec-02, 05:47 AM
Yeah. In south america, at the corresponding latitude, you donīt get these extreme cold and heat. Both the S. Atlantic and Pacific are cool. At the latitude of São Paulo [23 S] the ocean peaks at only 24 C in summer and 16 C in winter. In the Gulf of Mexico the waters get to 26-28 C in summer. Even the Carolinas have 26 waters, at the 35th parallel. In comparison, at the latitude of Buenos Aires the ocean temperature is never above 16 C.

Same with Europe. Note that Paris is at latitude 48 N; farther north than almost all of Minnesota.

Nick

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-03, 05:33 PM
I love meteorology and Iīm always exploring the globe.

It seems that Minnesota is the place where temps can drop the most in the US, followed by North Dakota [on a yearly basis]. Does it hold?

Also, Iīve seen that Canada is considerably colder than Siberia in this beginning of winter, which goes against common notions. Would you like to say something about it?

For general purposes I use Weather Underground info, and I havenīt looked for numbers to compare yet.

:)

Minnesota can get cold, but don't forget about the mountain states. Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado experience severe cold. North Dakota can get cold, but it is not as bad as people imagine it to be.

toejam
2007-Dec-03, 07:29 PM
Minnesota can get cold, but don't forget about the mountain states. Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, and Colorado experience severe cold. North Dakota can get cold, but it is not as bad as people imagine it to be.

Skiied Killington Vt one Xmas Day when it was -26 F (yes, 26 below zero Fareheit) and a wind of 10-12mph. beautiful sunshine. Only about 5-6 chairs occupied and we all looked like some cult - Blue capes provided by ski hill, and went up with everyone bowed down to our knees with leather masks on faces & still holding our faces in our hands. Confess son & I only took one run though - chickens!!!

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-03, 07:55 PM
The coldest I have ever personally experienced was -50F air temperature, with the wind blowing about 40 mph. I was a volunteer firefighter and we had a house fire that night. It was a very miserable experience! On the other hand, a calm and sunny day at -25F is not bad if one is dressed for the cold.

RalofTyr
2007-Dec-03, 08:40 PM
It was 40F at Disneyland the other night and that was freakin' cold.

toejam
2007-Dec-04, 04:48 PM
I am reliably informed that our weather people say that this is going to be an exceptionally long and cold winter. Because El Nino is doing whatever it/he is doing at the moment (?nearing Peru?) So check your El Nino standings, they overpower the usual climate/weather.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_nino#Atlantic_effect

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-04, 05:03 PM
The NOAA Climate Prediction Center says that there is a strengthening La Nina.


THE TEMPERATURE AND PRECIPITATION OUTLOOKS FOR DECEMBER-JANUARY-FEBRUARY (DJF) 2007-2008 REFLECT LA NINA IMPACTS IN COMBINATION WITH RECENT TRENDS. TEMPERATURES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, SECTIONS OF THE GREAT BASIN, NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, THE NORTHERN ROCKIES AND NORTHERN GREAT PLAINS ARE EXPECTED TO BE COOLER THAN THE AVERAGE OF RECENT YEARS AND SEASONAL MEANS SHOULD BE MORE IN LINE WITH THOSE EXPECTED IN THE 1971-2000 CLIMATE BASE PERIOD. THE REMAINDER OF THE NATION IS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE ABOVE NORMAL TEMPERATURES, BASED ON A COMBINATION OF TREND AND LA NINA INFLUENCES. THE PRECIPITATION OUTLOOK FOR DJF 2007-08 FAVORS ABOVE MEDIAN PRECIPITATION AMOUNTS IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AND NORTHERN ROCKIES, AND FROM THE CENTRAL MISSISSIPPI VALLEY NORTHEASTWARD TO THE CENTRAL GREAT LAKES. BELOW MEDIAN PRECIPITATION AMOUNTS ARE EXPECTED IN THE SOUTHWEST... PARTS OF TEXAS... ALONG THE GULF COAST AND THROUGHOUT MUCH OF THE SOUTHEASTERN U.S. INCLUDING FLORIDA, THE MIDDLE ATLANTIC COAST STATES AND COASTAL SECTIONS FROM THE DELMARVA PENINSULA TO FAR EASTERN SECTIONS OF MASSACHUSETTS. THESE PRECIPITATION SIGNALS ARE THE EXPECTED RESPONSE TO A MODERATE LA NINA, ALONG WITH A RELATIVELY SMALL INFLUENCE FROM TRENDS.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/long_range/fxus05.html

toejam
2007-Dec-04, 09:21 PM
Map of Canadian Met Service Probability for next 3 months:

http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/saisons/image_e.html?img=sfe1t_s

Maybe they are both right: the Bush administration's hot air will keep our cold air out of US. :)
Even if it can't keep the illegal immigrants out.

I cannot find a text forecast to compare with the US one.

iron4
2007-Dec-06, 09:04 AM
this page gives International Falls (MN), as the coldest city in the USA (excepting Alaska and Hawaii)

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/2003-07-31-answers-coldest-states_x.htm

You know, all extremes are bad, though I prefer cold weather to hot weather, and would rather live in Minnesota, than say, in Texas.

Kaptain K
2007-Dec-06, 09:30 AM
...would rather live in Minnesota, than say, in Texas.
That makes one of us!

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 12:01 PM
this page gives International Falls (MN), as the coldest city in the USA (excepting Alaska and Hawaii)

In line with my suspicions. :)

Right now it is -20C up there. Man , I wonder how itīs like to be exposed to that temp. The lowest Iīve ever experienced was -5 C [in Antarctica!].

Moose
2007-Dec-06, 12:44 PM
It's not that bad, Argos. Nobody really bothers with head protection (except young children and hip-hop wannabes) at -20C. No real frostbite or hypothermia risk unless you get yourself wet or go jacketless. Eventually.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Dec-06, 01:13 PM
You know, all extremes are bad, though I prefer cold weather to hot weather, and would rather live in Minnesota, than say, in Texas.

I'm with you. It's pick your poison, and after many trips to Florida in the summer; I'll pick up north. In fact, I would not want to live where it is any warmer in the summer than here. Ideally, summer here, winter in the Caribean.

Geography major here, and I love all those weather statistics. Record ambient temp is about -90F, somewhere in Siberia I believe. Record high (IIRC) is about 136F, I think Death Valley and one other place. You may hear of slightly higher or lower extremes, but official temps are alway measured in the shade, something like 36" above the ground. I'm a bit rusty, but that is what I recall.

Also, quite a bit more local variation than most people are aware of. Hills, valleys, especially river valleys, etc can mean a lot. The official temp about 5:30 this AM in Mpls/St Paul was about 5F; it was still -10F across the St Croix valley in WI. That's a 15F variation in less than 30 miles.

At our house last night, with the cold air flowing and pooling due to terrain, we got to -10F very quickly after the Sun went down. In flatter areas, that didn't happen until after midnight. I was mending some fence, and had to have the gloves off for some things. As soon as the Sun went down I had to stop. Hot chocolate time.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Dec-06, 01:23 PM
In line with my suspicions. :)

Right now it is -20C up there. Man , I wonder how itīs like to be exposed to that temp. The lowest Iīve ever experienced was -5 C [in Antarctica!].

-40F is the coldest I've endured up here. To be certain, that is cold; but if there is no wind it is liveable. Just gotta cover all skin and wear one of those maks goodies so you aren't sucking the air directly and deeply into your lungs.

There is a certain beauty to a frozen still world. I've also done the pound-a-nail-with-a-banana trick at -35F. It really works. I think I related last winter's experiment with throwing a pan of boiling water into the air at about -20F. I'm going to try it again this year with at least a gallon, and some sort of release mechanism that puts me out of harm's way. In the name of science of course. My kids always know something fun is in the works when I start walking around the house saying "Science!" in my best Thomas Dolby impersonation. It usually means something is going to get exploded, burned, sent flying, or other fun fare. Need I mention we are big Mythbusters fans. We should ask them to do a cold weather special. In the name of science of course.

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 01:31 PM
It's not that bad, Argos. Nobody really bothers with head protection (except young children and hip-hop wannabes) at -20C. No real frostbite or hypothermia risk unless you get yourself wet or go jacketless. Eventually.

You know, now I start to understand why Amundsen liked temperatures around -20C in his journey to the south pole [according to the book 'The Last place On Earth' - by Roland Rutherford].

In Brazil you can get minus 15 C occasionally [and briefly] atop the southern plateau. When it happens the media has a story for a whole week. Iīve never felt that cold, though.

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-06, 02:43 PM
You know, now I start to understand why Amundsen liked temperatures around -20C in his journey to the south pole [according to the book 'The Last place On Earth' - by Roland Rutherford].






That is a very good book. It was originally published under the title "Scott and Amundsen." It was also a very good BBC mini-series about 20 years ago. It's worth finding on DVD or tape.

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 02:48 PM
It was also a very good BBC mini-series about 20 years ago. It's worth finding on DVD or tape.

Thanks! Iīll be looking forward to getting it. :)

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 02:57 PM
-40F is the coldest I've endured up here. To be certain, that is cold; but if there is no wind it is liveable. Just gotta cover all skin and wear one of those maks goodies so you aren't sucking the air directly and deeply into your lungs..

Thatīs where F and C meet. Unthinkable for us Brazilian types. :)

Moose
2007-Dec-06, 03:05 PM
Thatīs where F and C meet. Unthinkable for us Brazilian types. :)

It's freakishly cold for us too. They pretty much cancel Canada on days like that. (You know it's cold when...)

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-06, 03:06 PM
My pet peeve is the people who can not distinguish between Wind Chill and Air Temperature and it's not helped by the media who these days seem more likely to report the wind chill and forget about the air temp. Countless times I have head someone say something like "I can't believe my car started this morning, it's -40." I'll usually reply with "No, it's -5 and windy." But they have no understanding of what I am saying.

Swift
2007-Dec-06, 03:17 PM
You know, all extremes are bad, though I prefer cold weather to hot weather, and would rather live in Minnesota, than say, in Texas.
Me two (or three or whatever). Part of that is medical, I get migraines from getting overheated, and for me, that can be at 30C. The other aspect is that I can always add another layer of clothes for warmth, but once I'm down to skin, there is nothing I can do for the heat.

Torsten
2007-Dec-06, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I wilt when it gets above about 25C. All I want to do is sit in the shade with a cooler of beer. ;)

We have -22C again this morning. There's an odd squeeking sound when walking on packed snow at this temperature.

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I wilt when it gets above about 25C. All I want to do is sit in the shade with a cooler of beer. ;)

Me too, but see my latitude and youīll understand my pain.

Torsten
2007-Dec-06, 06:08 PM
Me too, but see my latitude and youīll understand my pain.

Yep, I couldn't work well at that latitude/elevation. (It must get really hot on that runway in the sun ;) ). But that' not to say I don't mind the wilted state, in the shade, with appropriate beverage in hand.

I'm really glad to have finished one of my field jobs a couple of weeks ago, before these temperatures arrived. I was working on really steep ground, with about 30-40 cm of snow on the ground, windfalls all over the place, snow on the dense underbrush, and temperature around -10C. Just the right conditions for getting damp/wet and refreezing. I didn't bother to stopping for lunch because I would cool off too much. I sure appreciated getting back to the vehicle at the end of the day.

I have one day of inspections on another job, but it means I have to use a sled (our vernacular for snowmobile) to go about 20 km down a narrow brushed-in road. But I'm going to wait for it to warm up a bit. I've operated it at -28C, and it's not pleasant.

Argos
2007-Dec-06, 06:35 PM
Yep, I couldn't work well at that latitude/elevation.

Actually it is not as hot as you might think, because of the elevation, among other things [26C right now, but humidity - the mark of summer here - makes it feel hotter]. But in January and February 40 C is not uncommon, and 30 C is the norm for four months. As weīre not as continental as the US and Canada [except for the Amazon], the climate is milder than in corresponding northern hemisphere latitudes.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Dec-06, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I wilt when it gets above about 25C. All I want to do is sit in the shade with a cooler of beer. ;)

We have -22C again this morning. There's an odd squeeking sound when walking on packed snow at this temperature.

Yes, at that temperature, traction actually seems to improve (as opposed to +20F). The ice doesn't seem to change character, traction-wise, but you can definitely feel the difference in the tackiness of the snow.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Dec-06, 06:54 PM
My pet peeve is the people who can not distinguish between Wind Chill and Air Temperature and it's not helped by the media who these days seem more likely to report the wind chill and forget about the air temp. Countless times I have head someone say something like "I can't believe my car started this morning, it's -40." I'll usually reply with "No, it's -5 and windy." But they have no understanding of what I am saying.

Somebody made the comment that their car started because they had it in the garage overnight out of the wind. I told them that the only difference the wind made was how quickly something cooled down, not the low temperature it would get to. They didn't get it.

So I tried again. I said the COLDEST something can get, and the temperature to which it WILL drop unless it has some internal heat source, is the temperature of the air around it. All the wind does is COOL THING DOWN, or HEAT THINGS UP faster.

He said uh huh, but I could tell be the look, it didn't quite register.

The Supreme Canuck
2007-Dec-06, 07:04 PM
It's freakishly cold for us too. They pretty much cancel Canada on days like that. (You know it's cold when...)

Yeah. Yeah that was a cold recess. I still for the life of me can't understand why they didn't keep us indoors. -20C, though? Time to ski!

Torsten
2007-Dec-06, 07:24 PM
Yes, at that temperature, traction actually seems to improve (as opposed to +20F). The ice doesn't seem to change character, traction-wise, but you can definitely feel the difference in the tackiness of the snow.

Funny, I was going to write about traction in that post. On our forest roads we generally retain a thin ice/snow pack during the winter, rather than blading it down to the gravel. Then, to maintain the surface, the ice/snow is periodically graded with a serrated blade. It makes a really good running surface and traffic speeds are often faster than under summer conditions. The guys usually slow down when they get back to the paved highways with their radar traps.


He said uh huh, but I could tell be the look, it didn't quite register.

It's common here for the various forest road users to report road conditions to one another over the radio, and that will typically include temperatures. One day, when it was just a bit below freezing, I heard one driver ask another where on the vehicle the thermometer was mounted, "Cuz you'd expect it to be colder with the wind chill."

Torsten
2007-Dec-06, 07:25 PM
Yeah. Yeah that was a cold recess. I still for the life of me can't understand why they didn't keep us indoors. -20C, though? Time to ski!

Couldn't have been the behaviour before recess?

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-06, 08:25 PM
Those of us in the northern States and Canada like to think that we know what real cold is like. However I recall watching something about Siberia on TV a few years ago. It was mentioned that in Yakutsk the schools do not let the children go outside for recess when the temperature goes below -50C.

The Supreme Canuck
2007-Dec-06, 09:12 PM
Couldn't have been the behaviour before recess?

Heh. Probably not - we ALL went out.


Those of us in the northern States and Canada like to think that we know what real cold is like. However I recall watching something about Siberia on TV a few years ago. It was mentioned that in Yakutsk the schools do not let the children go outside for recess when the temperature goes below -50C.

Pish. The incident I'm talking about was -35C with no wind and -55C with. And they still sent us out.

JMV
2007-Dec-06, 11:48 PM
The lowest Iīve ever experienced was -5 C [in Antarctica!].
Subtract 40 degrees centigrade from that and you'll get the lowest temperature I've experienced. It was a perfect day for the school's heating to break down; we got to wear winter jackets in class. One crazy kid came to school riding a bicycle that morning.

Argos
2007-Dec-07, 12:38 PM
Subtract 40 degrees centigrade from that and you'll get the lowest temperature I've experienced. It was a perfect day for the school's heating to break down; we got to wear winter jackets in class. One crazy kid came to school riding a bicycle that morning.

Itīs interesting. In winters here we get 0 to 5 C. Bellow 5C it feels extremely cold to me.

A question: Do rivers freeze in Maryland and Virginias?

Maksutov
2007-Dec-07, 02:46 PM
[edit]A question: Do rivers freeze in Maryland and Virginias?They sure do. Here's a photo (http://nursewriter.com/photos/Birds-Jefferson.JPG) of the frozen Potomac River, which forms the boundary between Virginia and Maryland. Another shot (http://daddyroblog.blogs.com/daddyroblog/images/frozen_potomac_river_015.jpg) a bit farther upstream.

farmerjumperdon
2007-Dec-07, 03:38 PM
Just to be clear, in case a person who doesn't live in this kind of climate might not understand -

Just the surfaces of rivers freeze. There is moving water underneath (as well as open stretches of water unless it gets really cold). The thickness of the ice just depends on how cold and how strong the current flows.

This makes me want to do an experiment. I think I'll go drop a thermometer in our stream. I suspect the water is below freezing, but is only liquid because it is under pressure to keep moving.

Does that make sense?

Argos
2007-Dec-07, 03:56 PM
Thanks Mak, for the photos [the ice surface looks very thin], and Don, for the explanation [Iīve seen frozen puddles down here, so I get the picture :)].

Eoanthropus Dawsoni
2007-Dec-07, 04:19 PM
Just to be clear, in case a person who doesn't live in this kind of climate might not understand -

Just the surfaces of rivers freeze. There is moving water underneath (as well as open stretches of water unless it gets really cold). The thickness of the ice just depends on how cold and how strong the current flows.

This makes me want to do an experiment. I think I'll go drop a thermometer in our stream. I suspect the water is below freezing, but is only liquid because it is under pressure to keep moving.

Does that make sense?



I used to be on a dive rescue team. We would have to go down and retrieve the bodies of ice fishermen who were stupid enough to drive their pickups over thin ice. The water was typically 33 or 34F, but in deeper lakes I've seen it close to 40F on the bottom. But I've also been under the ice in shallow rivers and lakes where there was a few feet of ice on the surface, ice on the bottom, and a few feet of liquid water in between. I don't recall what the water temperature was in those conditions but it had to have been very close to the freezing point.

JMV
2007-Dec-07, 04:46 PM
The water was typically 33 or 34F, but in deeper lakes I've seen it close to 40F on the bottom.
That's got to do with the density of water which is greatest at 4C (40F). That's the main reason why the water near lake bottom is warmer than the water at upper depths during winters.

Swift
2007-Dec-07, 04:53 PM
Lake Erie usually freezes over during the winter. It is often thick enough to walk or even drive on, at least near shore.
Satellite photo from NASA (http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/1286/S1999071174340.jpg)
Photo from out on the lake, looking back to Cleveland (http://www.phpaddlers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/iced_in.jpg)

Back in the late 70s, there was one winter in New York City that it was cold enough that upper New York harbor, which is pretty salty, was freezing over. The Coast Guard actually had to do a little work to keep it open for shipping.

toejam
2007-Dec-07, 04:56 PM
I used to be on a dive rescue team. We would have to go down and retrieve the bodies of ice fishermen who were stupid enough to drive their pickups over thin ice. The water was typically 33 or 34F, but in deeper lakes I've seen it close to 40F on the bottom. But I've also been under the ice in shallow rivers and lakes where there was a few feet of ice on the surface, ice on the bottom, and a few feet of liquid water in between. I don't recall what the water temperature was in those conditions but it had to have been very close to the freezing point.

Yeah. Around here if you ask the locals when is the ice on the lakes safe to go on, they'll tell you:

"after the first five Toronto snowmobilers have drowned and been pulled out"

Doodler
2007-Dec-07, 05:01 PM
Just to be clear, in case a person who doesn't live in this kind of climate might not understand -

Just the surfaces of rivers freeze. There is moving water underneath (as well as open stretches of water unless it gets really cold). The thickness of the ice just depends on how cold and how strong the current flows.

This makes me want to do an experiment. I think I'll go drop a thermometer in our stream. I suspect the water is below freezing, but is only liquid because it is under pressure to keep moving.

Does that make sense?

Could be heat coming off the riverbed if it's deeper than the frostline.

Maksutov
2007-Dec-08, 05:15 AM
Lake Erie usually freezes over during the winter. It is often thick enough to walk or even drive on, at least near shore.
Satellite photo from NASA (http://veimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/1286/S1999071174340.jpg)
Photo from out on the lake, looking back to Cleveland (http://www.phpaddlers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/iced_in.jpg)

Back in the late 70s, there was one winter in New York City that it was cold enough that upper New York harbor, which is pretty salty, was freezing over. The Coast Guard actually had to do a little work to keep it open for shipping.I remember that winter. Lon Geyeland Sound froze over and it was possible, for a while, to walk from Lordship to Port Jefferson, about 14 miles, as well as other routes.

Argos
2007-Dec-11, 01:14 PM
Re the current cold wave, I canīt of any other place in the world around the 35th parallel where temperatures fall as deep as it does in the US heartland.

Argos
2007-Dec-27, 02:38 PM
Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania (http://www.wunderground.com/US/Region/US/SnowDepth.html) with little or no snow. Is that normal this time of year?

Swift
2007-Dec-27, 03:03 PM
Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania (http://www.wunderground.com/US/Region/US/SnowDepth.html) with little or no snow. Is that normal this time of year?
Probably not normal, but not that unusual. I don't have actual statistics, but I'd say we'll have snow on the ground this time of year 6 out of 10 years. It also is pretty common that we'll get a bunch of snow, it will stick around for a week or two, then we'll get a couple of 5C days and it will all melt. It actually is pretty rare that we'll have snow on the ground continously for more than a month or so at a time.

Last winter, for example, started very mild, 5-10C (IIRC) till about the second week in January. Then it turned very cold, we got a lot of snow, and it stayed that way for about six weeks. It turned into a rather snowy winter.

It also varies greatly across the state - this map (http://www.dot.state.oh.us/snomap.htm) shows the geographic variation in average snowfall. That bullseye in the Northeast corner of the state - I live by the "L" in Lake (County), is from Lake Effect snow (http://www.weathernet5.com/weather/1881775/detail.html).

Argos
2007-Dec-27, 03:09 PM
Thanks for the first-hand info, Swift. ;)

Gillianren
2007-Dec-27, 07:11 PM
For the first time since I moved here, we sort of had a white Christmas. It started snowing at around four in the afternoon here and went between snowing, raining, and neither the rest of the evening. There was still a little snow left on the ground here and there, in shady places, yesterday afternoon.

Argos
2008-Feb-11, 08:07 PM
Itīs official: Minnesota (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/02/11/minnesota.cold.ap/index.html) takes it all. :)


(...)northern Minnesota town won a federal trademark making it officially the "Icebox of the Nation."

NEOWatcher
2008-Feb-11, 08:16 PM
Itīs official: Minnesota (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/02/11/minnesota.cold.ap/index.html) takes it all. :)
That's not suprising since many still haven't accepted Alaska as part of the nation. :doh:


It was so cold that resident Nick McDougall couldn't even get his car trunk lid to close after he got out his charger to kick-start his dead battery
Huh? Was it the trunk? Physical ability? Ice?

Hurt his toe? Is it anything like kicking a dead horse?

Argos
2008-Feb-12, 10:33 PM
That's not suprising since many still haven't accepted Alaska as part of the nation.

Alaska is hors-concours here. :)

PetersCreek
2008-Feb-13, 07:01 AM
Not that we need validation from Outsiders, anyway. ;)