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Augustus Vox
2007-Dec-06, 04:06 PM
What were the environmental pressures or incentives for a race to adopt such a method of living? I know there are many advantages to this lifestyle (if you can call assimilation dominance a lifestyle) but what would cause a race to adopt it. Was it some sort of post Matrixesque situation in which the two races (the machine race and the organic one) decided to merge in order to survive or was it possibly some sort of disaster to the organic Borg’s homeworld.

hhEb09'1
2007-Dec-06, 05:21 PM
The story of the origin of the Borg is complicated by many factors-- one, they're a complex race in that they've assimilated diverse others; two, very little personal history is extant; and three, it's fiction! :)

Whatever story we come up with, it's bound to sound a little made up :)

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Dec-06, 05:44 PM
I think that the Borg evolved the way they did because of the need for efficiency....don't they talk about order out of chaos?

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Dec-06, 05:44 PM
maybe that's the Vulcans

Moose
2007-Dec-06, 05:51 PM
The show canon doesn't really say, but it's probably not too far a stretch to speculate that their origin may have been something akin to a limited grey-goo scenario: where some random species was tampering with itself (or a competitor species) and it got out of control, ultimately ending the original species in question.

Delvo
2007-Dec-06, 06:41 PM
It started with MP3-playing, emailing, internet-browsing cellphones that took pictures...

Noclevername
2007-Dec-06, 06:55 PM
It may have started as a voluntary linking of minds that just got too popular, and from there things got out of hand...

There was a similar all-cyborg species in a first-season TNG episode, the Binars, who had a group-mind dependent on one single supercomputer (an outdated idea even in 1986). They even showed in the episode itself why that was a bad idea, especially since they didn't even have any backups!

Swift
2007-Dec-06, 06:56 PM
It started with MP3-playing, emailing, internet-browsing, cellphones that took pictures...
and astronomy internet forums.

hhEb09'1
2007-Dec-06, 07:01 PM
and astronomy internet forums.Hmmm, you may be onto something. If we can somehow make sure to volunteer our fine forum to all potential systems, we probably would be enough to make sure that it never cohered.

Doodler
2007-Dec-06, 07:08 PM
The only canon information tying them to any origin is that they controlled only a few systems in the 14th century.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Dec-06, 07:20 PM
It started with MP3-playing, emailing, internet-browsing cellphones that took pictures...

that might be closer to the truth than you realize....something like that could/might happen

SeanF
2007-Dec-06, 07:35 PM
They even showed in the episode itself why that was a bad idea, especially since they didn't even have any backups!
Sure they did - that's what Riker and Picard had to do to save them, after all, was restore from backup. :)

The real problem with that ep is this: The Bynars used Minuet as a diversion to keep Riker on board in case they needed someone else to restore the backup. Picard also remaining onboard was an unexpected happenstance - he wasn't supposed to be there. And, yet, when it came time to restore the backup, both Riker and Picard were needed because the Bynars work in pairs! If things had gone according to the Bynars' own plan, they'd be goners!

Noclevername
2007-Dec-06, 07:46 PM
Sure they did - that's what Riker and Picard had to do to save them, after all, was restore from backup. :)

Sorry, I meant "backup" in the non-programmers' sense-- a spare computer.

NEOWatcher
2007-Dec-06, 08:01 PM
that might be closer to the truth than you realize....something like that could/might happen

Oh come now, what society in their right mind would be willing to live with a communication device affixed to thier ear.
Next, you'll be telling me we will all have blue teeth.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2007-Dec-06, 08:05 PM
blue tooth?

Augustus Vox
2007-Dec-06, 08:39 PM
Oh come now, what society in their right mind would be willing to live with a communication device affixed to thier ear.
Next, you'll be telling me we will all have blue teeth.

I take it you don't have a cell phone with an earpiece.

mike alexander
2007-Dec-06, 08:41 PM
I always figured the first Borg sat down next to a woman at the bar and said, "Hey, Baby! Resistance is futile!"

NEOWatcher
2007-Dec-06, 09:00 PM
I always figured the first Borg sat down next to a woman at the bar and said, "Hey, Baby! Resistance is futile!"
I thought she mis-heard it and it was "Hey, Baby! Residence is fertile".

Noclevername
2007-Dec-06, 09:38 PM
Maybe the first people in their society to get brain-link implants were just really selfish, pushy jerks, and it spread to the rest of them.

Augustus Vox
2007-Dec-06, 10:12 PM
Maybe the first people in their society to get brain-link implants were just really selfish, pushy jerks, and it spread to the rest of them.

Or maybe it was this culture's version of telephone sex :whistle:

Noclevername
2007-Dec-06, 10:16 PM
Or maybe it was this culture's version of telephone sex :whistle:

...

...There's a joke here, but I'm not going to say it.

Tog
2007-Dec-07, 09:18 AM
A few years back, just before the PS2 came out, I saw an ad for the PS7 or 8. I'm remembering it as being an actual Sony ad, sort of a "this is how see see the future of gaming" thing. Anyway, it was some guy walking down the street with a little ear set that wrapped around to a screen in front of his eye, but it showed that the game responded to eye movements for control and was better graphically than anything out at the time.

Now, combine that image with the current trend of Online gaming and hotspot internet access, and you have a wearable unit that can be used to connect to any other portable unit anywhere in the world, or in the case of MMO's to thousands of other units via remote server.

The problem is, they can be lost or stolen, so it would be better to just get them installed directly.

But then you might get people killing you to take them away, so you'll need weapons, but there are laws against carrying them in many places. But those laws don't extend to an integrated part of the body. You can't take a crowbar on an airplane, but a steel prosthetic leg is okay.

Then the bad guys get weapons too, so you need to have some sort of defense, like an energy shield, but even then, you will still be prone to attacks of gangs, so it's best to form an alliance or guild with others of the same mind. That way, you can travels in packs and not risked getting ganked at the mall.

Of course, by this point you'd need a centralized command center to keep track of where everyone was and if the were in trouble, and it wouldn't be hard to program this command structure to coordinate activities in the games to make the guild stronger. This group makes stuff, this group gathers materials, this camps spawn points for Ph4t l3wt. Before you know it, the centralized command has applied the same measures in game as out of game.

The Borg are nothing more than a PVP guild on a massive recruitment drive.

Larry Jacks
2007-Dec-07, 03:46 PM
Actually, I think the Borg began with Lockheed. They keep buying up companies and absorbing them into the collective.

eburacum45
2007-Dec-07, 04:07 PM
So the collective mind of the Borg turns out to be some kind of MMORPG, eh? I could see something like that happening. Trouble is, if you are constantly playing an online game while walking about in the real world, you get distracted and bump into things. You couldn't really drive a car safely, let alone an aircraft or a spaceship. Perhaps that's why the Borg look so detached and 'out of it' all the time.

Cyborgs don't have to be ugly, or covered in biomechanical gubbins. In fact they could look like anything they want to. So a race of cyborgs might end up looking impossibly beautiful...

Doodler
2007-Dec-07, 04:47 PM
...

...There's a joke here, but I'm not going to say it.

That would explain the Borg Queen...

Doodler
2007-Dec-07, 04:48 PM
So the collective mind of the Borg turns out to be some kind of MMORPG, eh? I could see something like that happening. Trouble is, if you are constantly playing an online game while walking about in the real world, you get distracted and bump into things. You couldn't really drive a car safely, let alone an aircraft or a spaceship. Perhaps that's why the Borg look so detached and 'out of it' all the time.

Cyborgs don't have to be ugly, or covered in biomechanical gubbins. In fact they could look like anything they want to. So a race of cyborgs might end up looking impossibly beautiful...

Nah, Unimatrix Zero was their MMORPG. The Borg Queen was just channeling Jack Thompson.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-07, 07:08 PM
Cyborgs don't have to be ugly, or covered in biomechanical gubbins. In fact they could look like anything they want to. So a race of cyborgs might end up looking impossibly beautiful...

In their minds, they do. They let their physical bodies kinda go to pot because they don't care what anyone outside their groupthink, er, thinks.

Tog
2007-Dec-07, 07:25 PM
So the collective mind of the Borg turns out to be some kind of MMORPG, eh? I could see something like that happening. Trouble is, if you are constantly playing an online game while walking about in the real world, you get distracted and bump into things. You couldn't really drive a car safely, let alone an aircraft or a spaceship. Perhaps that's why the Borg look so detached and 'out of it' all the time.

But that the beauty of it. From the server's point of view more people/resources/loot is better. The best way to to that in game is to either have a very efficient farming system, or bring in a lot more people. Since they are now just about as efficient as they can be, they need more people. So the collective writes a mod that basically scans the real world and just places damage number floaties above the heads of those on the opposing factions. The Borg units are navigating a game that just happens to be laid out over the real world. This also helps to cut out the complains about a lack of end game content.


Cyborgs don't have to be ugly, or covered in biomechanical gubbins. In fact they could look like anything they want to. So a race of cyborgs might end up looking impossibly beautiful...Maybe to the Borg utility is better then appearance. Also, somewhere deep in this guy's (http://www.gift4body.com/blog/wp-content/piercingimplants.jpg) mind there had to be a tiny little voice that said either, "No, this will get you a girl" or "Dude you might as well. You're a lost cause anyway". Either way, it was probably his choice and this is nowhere near as cool as portable energy shields and forearm mounted lasers.:D

eburacum45
2007-Dec-07, 07:54 PM
In their minds, they do. They let their physical bodies kinda go to pot because they don't care what anyone outside their groupthink, er, thinks.

They might interact via avatars, within an artificial environment representing their full data environment. Those avatars could resemble anything. Their own physical appearance would be irrelevant. In fact they might as well just be disembodied brains in life-support tanks...
but I'm probably describing a different species here.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-07, 08:05 PM
They might interact via avatars, within an artificial environment representing their full data environment. Those avatars could resemble anything. Their own physical appearance would be irrelevant. In fact they might as well just be disembodied brains in life-support tanks...
but I'm probably describing a different species here.

Maybe some of them are, and we just haven't seen them. Or, since the Borg use nanotech to maintain their bodies' internal life support, making them easy to care for (no need for food, water, etc.*) maybe bodies are just kept around as a convenient mobile platform to carry brains; waste not, want not. The Borg Queen was basically assembled from parts in her earliest appearance (and again in her reappearance on Voyager), indicating that brains can be put wherever they're needed.

There was also a comment along the lines that a species made superior combat drones because of their bodies' physical attributes.

*IIRC, Seven of Nine didn't need food until after the majority of her Borg systems were removed.

publiusr
2007-Dec-07, 11:28 PM
I would say that the race that built the automatic drydock that Enterprise docked with was an early Borg (Vegan tryanny?) design.

If I were to write for the series, I would have the technology adapted by a young lady who studied insects, thus while the collective assimilated her--she assimilated it as the queen--thus the change in tactics...the manga shows her origin, and a disease that might be the grey goo.

Rue
2007-Dec-10, 06:05 PM
The only canon information tying them to any origin is that they controlled only a few systems in the 14th century.

Back then resistance was feudal.

Daffy
2007-Dec-10, 06:12 PM
Back then resistance was feudal.

That's what I get for serfing this site.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-10, 08:52 PM
That's what I get for serfing this site.

Mind your Manors!

Alasdhair
2007-Dec-11, 02:36 PM
Let's not Demesne things ...

CTM VT 2K
2007-Dec-11, 04:47 PM
Surly you joust.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-11, 07:16 PM
Good Knight, everybody!

Daffy
2007-Dec-11, 07:25 PM
Good Knight, everybody!

Galahad to have met you!

Swift
2007-Dec-11, 07:27 PM
Hey, cut it out with the puns. And don't argue with me, Renaissance is futile.

Daffy
2007-Dec-11, 07:37 PM
Hey, cut it out with the puns. And don't argue with me, Renaissance is futile.

I like that pun; it wasn't as Dark as all the others.

Noclevername
2007-Dec-11, 07:43 PM
I like that pun; it wasn't as Dark as all the others.

It helps to Castle little light on the subject.

Alasdhair
2007-Dec-11, 08:23 PM
That's a sword point ...

Swift
2007-Dec-11, 10:17 PM
I like that pun; it wasn't as Dark as all the others.
Now you're showing your Age.

vonmazur
2007-Dec-11, 10:47 PM
Hokay: I thought it was a Borg-Ward and a hoard of Yuppies in their Volvos----Head on at 90 Knots....

Dale

Daffy
2007-Dec-12, 12:29 AM
Now you're showing your Age.

OK, that one really did make me LOL!

man on the moon
2007-Dec-12, 04:28 AM
If you consider Enterprise to be part of the canon, I think there was an episode involving an early Borg-like society. I don't remember all the details...anyone else?

*Edit: Looks like publiusr already said something about it. I thought I read the whole thread, but must have skipped his post at the top of this page somehow. Apologies.

Still, anyone remember any more to the story than that? Perhaps google can help...

Maksutov
2007-Dec-12, 07:20 AM
They came into existence when the Warner left this collective (http://www.borgwarner.com/).

man on the moon
2007-Dec-12, 08:10 AM
Try this wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Stop), this tv.com recap (http://www.tv.com/star-trek-enterprise/dead-stop/episode/187035/recap.html).

I didn't see anything at first glance, but as my earlier post can attest, I don't see everything even if it's right in my face.

Some of the commenters here (http://www.tv.com/star-trek-enterprise/show/2498/dead-stop---early-versions-of-borg/topic/1908-566062/msgs.html) seem to disagree on whether or not it was borg related.

This wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)) discusses some origins near the bottom. Also, part way down is a reference to another Enterprise episode (http://www.tv.com/star-trek-enterprise/regeneration/episode/232960/recap.html). I don't remember that episode for some reason.

novaderrik
2007-Dec-12, 11:38 PM
the Borg got started when Picard and Janeway went back in time to meet the legendary Kirk, and they- along with a Swedish redshirt named ensign Borg- got zapped thru a temporal wormhole that left them stranded in the Delta quadrant 1000 years ago.
long story short, the redshirt got crushed by a piece of random granite, and Janeway used the portable holo-doctor projector she had with her to fashion mechanical parts to try to fix the dying redshirt. but the holo-doctor program screwed up and put the AI setting in the cerebral implants too high, thus making the implants take over. Ensign Borg tried to kill everyone, but Picard, Kirk, and Janeway made a miraculous escape back thru the wormhole just in time- but the process of travelling forward in time erased their memories of the events that just transpired...
ensign Borg swore he'd get revenge....
someone else can take over here.. my brain is starting to hurt..

Noclevername
2007-Dec-13, 01:00 AM
someone else can take over here.. my brain is starting to hurt..

Q did it. He was behind it all. Can't find a challenging opponent for your rival Picard? Just make one! And update it with new abilities and characteristics as your foes change and become more complex.

One Skunk Todd
2007-Dec-13, 01:06 AM
All these Medieval Borg puns are pointless. Everybody knows the Borg were hoist by their own Picard. :)

nomuse
2007-Dec-13, 09:23 AM
I seem to remember some non-canon work blaming them on V'ger...

NEOWatcher
2007-Dec-13, 01:53 PM
I seem to remember some non-canon work blaming them on V'ger...
I can see the Borg being responsibility for V'ger, or maybe the same source for both, but not the other way around.
Something caused the transformation of V'ger. V'ger assimilated stuff, but nothing in the story made me think it was creating stuff.

Daffy
2007-Dec-13, 05:45 PM
I can see the Borg being responsibility for V'ger, or maybe the same source for both, but not the other way around.
Something caused the transformation of V'ger. V'ger assimilated stuff, but nothing in the story made me think it was creating stuff.

I always thought it would be intriguing if the Borg had intercepted Voyager and created V'ger themselves. Wherever it came from, Spock did refer to it a "a planet populated by living machines."

Noclevername
2007-Dec-13, 06:19 PM
I seem to remember some non-canon work blaming them on V'ger...

Yeah, it was one of the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens collaboration novels (I like to refer to them as the SuperKirk series, since they make him practically omni-capable and the Wesley-like savior of every book). But they had to twist the fabric of continuity to the breaking point to explain all the differences between V'Ger and the Borg.

For me, at least, tying the Borg to V'Ger pushed past the suspension of disbelief. Not every single thing in the ST universe has to be tied together. The V'Ger/Nomad similarities were already pushing it. Two Earth probes who both ran into an alien technology that rebuilt them as sentient superweapons who misunderstood their programming and killed what they were supposed to study?

Tog
2007-Dec-14, 08:57 AM
Two Earth probes who both ran into an alien technology that rebuilt them as sentient superweapons who misunderstood their programming and killed what they were supposed to study?

Like father, like son.

*ducks*:p

publiusr
2007-Dec-14, 06:15 PM
Hey! Terry Nation probably turned Sputnik 3 into a Dalek? It's has happened before and will--sorry.

Alasdhair
2007-Dec-14, 07:13 PM
Ray Cusick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Cusick) designed & built the Dalek props, he deserves the credit for the way they look more than Nation ...