PDA

View Full Version : Forget Black Holes, How Do You Find A Wormhole?



Fraser
2008-Jan-22, 02:20 AM
Finding a black hole is an easy task… compared with searching for a wormhole. Suspected black holes have a massive gravitational effect on planets, stars and even galaxies, generating radiation, producing jets and accretion disks. Black holes will even bend light*through gravitational lensing. Now, try finding a wormhole… Any ideas?*Well,*a Russian researcher thinks he has [...]

More... (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/universetoday/pYdq/~3/220707349/)

Noclevername
2008-Jan-22, 02:46 AM
How Do You Find A Wormhole?

Follow a worm.

Louigi Verona
2008-Jan-22, 12:37 PM
Sounds interesting! In fact, wormholes might be the only real method of actual interstellar and intergalactical space travel.

Argos
2008-Jan-22, 12:54 PM
However, just because wormholes are possible does not mean they do exist. They could simply be the mathematical leftovers of general relativity

Thatīs it.

Argos
2008-Jan-22, 12:58 PM
Sounds interesting! In fact, wormholes might be the only real method of actual interstellar and intergalactical space travel.

Well, getting to one of them requires an interstellar [or even intergalactic]travel...

Louigi Verona
2008-Jan-22, 01:49 PM
Well, getting to one of them requires an interstellar [or even intergalactic]travel...

Not necessarily. What if some of them open up regularly nearby?

Louigi Verona
2008-Jan-22, 01:54 PM
Thatīs it.

Hm. I think that they should exist. If they don't, then we might as well forget about any interstellar travel, since even if we travel at light speed, it'll take 4 years to reach even the nearest star system.

GOURDHEAD
2008-Jan-22, 04:13 PM
Hm. I think that they should exist. If they don't, then we might as well forget about any interstellar travel, since even if we travel at light speed, it'll take 4 years to reach even the nearest star system. Has anyone addressed the navigation problem? How are destinations determined? I assume controlling destinations is out of the question. In a practical sense it will take 1.5 to 2 times as many years to travel the lightyear distance since great decelerations must be avoided.

Noclevername
2008-Jan-22, 04:27 PM
If they don't, then we might as well forget about any interstellar travel, since even if we travel at light speed, it'll take 4 years to reach even the nearest star system.

So?

Why does that mean "forget about it"? By the time we can actually get to another star system, there may be means such as cryonic hibernation or life extension that would make four years, or forty, a drop in the bucket. And certain isolationist groups may be willing to send themselves and their descendants in a generation ship, to escape persecution or to find (or make!) a "promised land".

"Difficult" does not equal "impossible".





EDIT: Even if we do find wormholes, they're likely to be much further away than the nearest star. So it's still a long trip, either way.)

Argos
2008-Jan-22, 04:36 PM
Note that a 4-year journey to the nearest stellar system [travelling at near c] translates to only days or weeks in the travellerīs frame. No hibernation is required.

Noclevername
2008-Jan-22, 04:39 PM
Note that a 4-year journey to the nearest stellar system [travelling at near c] translates to only days or weeks in the travellerīs frame. No hibernation is required.

Yes, but it may not even be possible for human or even post-human beings to build something that can reach anywhere near that speed. And if we can, it may not result in livable conditions on the starship.

trinitree88
2008-Jan-23, 01:16 AM
Yes, but it may not even be possible for human or even post-human beings to build something that can reach anywhere near that speed. And if we can, it may not result in livable conditions on the starship.

Noclevername. The Enzmann Starship, designed by a Prof. at MIT in the 60's and popularized in Sky & Tel or Astronomy in the 70's would reach 90% light speed in ~ 6 months. The issue then was cost...prohibitive, not engineering. Since then the issue has become radiation hazard to the crew. Try searching Advanced Search function for other threads. pete.

Grand_Lunar
2008-Jan-24, 03:37 AM
Science fiction seems to have the habit of seeming more like science fact...

Now, if only we could handle that blue-shifted light. Think 2 million sunblock would be good for starters?

avillarrealpouw
2008-Jan-24, 02:52 PM
Please forgive the stupid question:

If the wormhole moves us instantly to another place, why does it not distort time in a similar way?

If I get into a 4 light year long wormhole from here to Alpha Centauri will I get there 4000 years sooner than taking a leisurely rocket trip at 0.001c ? And if I go through the wormhole and immediately come back will my brother, who was waiting for me, also register the trip as immediate?

I see no reason for assuming that the time frames on both sides of the worm hole are the same. Maybe I go, take a cup of Centaurean Coffee and get back in an hour but my brother, son, grandson and grand-grandson are all long gone. Or am I wrong?

Noclevername
2008-Jan-24, 03:07 PM
Please forgive the stupid question:

If the wormhole moves us instantly to another place, why does it not distort time in a similar way?

If I get into a 4 light year long wormhole from here to Alpha Centauri will I get there 4000 years sooner than taking a leisurely rocket trip at 0.001c ? And if I go through the wormhole and immediately come back will my brother, who was waiting for me, also register the trip as immediate?

I see no reason for assuming that the time frames on both sides of the worm hole are the same. Maybe I go, take a cup of Centaurean Coffee and get back in an hour but my brother, son, grandson and grand-grandson are all long gone. Or am I wrong?


There are a lot of physicists who are debating that right now. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

eburacum45
2008-Jan-25, 10:41 AM
Other people have predicted the characteristics of wormholes before; here is something from 1995, by physicists John G. Cramer, Gregory Benford, Geoffrey A. Landis, Robert Forward, Matt Visser and Michael Morris. (You may have heard of them).
http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/wormholes.htp
They describe the appearance of a wormhole mouth with excess negative energy, which they call a Gravitationally Negative Anomalous Compact Halo Object (GNACHO). In fact their description sounds not too dissimilar to Shatskiy's.

eburacum45
2008-Jan-25, 10:46 AM
If you want to read our fictional take on wormholes at OA, here is the new Wormhole FAQ
http://www.orionsarm.com//intro/wormholes_and_exotic_matter_faq.html
it may be written from an SF viewpoint but it contains a lot of interesting references.

trinitree88
2008-Jan-27, 03:47 PM
Other people have predicted the characteristics of wormholes before; here is something from 1995, by physicists John G. Cramer, Gregory Benford, Geoffrey A. Landis, Robert Forward, Matt Visser and Michael Morris. (You may have heard of them).
http://www.sff.net/people/Geoffrey.Landis/wormholes.htp
They describe the appearance of a wormhole mouth with excess negative energy, which they call a Gravitationally Negative Anomalous Compact Halo Object (GNACHO). In fact their description sounds not too dissimilar to Shatskiy's.

Eburacum. I'll bet they never find one. (Let's see...a Milky Way bar) There are plenty of math equations that yield no physical result...only a mathematical result. For example, if you annihilated all the matter in the universe...~10[sup]80[sup] protons equivalent....with a supernatural-being-donated equivalent of antimatter, and applied it to a single neutron, accelerating it to near light speed, how many 9's after the decimal point do you get for your fraction of 'c' ? Going to be tricky to have a frame here with no matter other than the neutron, but then it's only a calculation.:shifty:
Much as I love Jodi Foster as an actress, the movie with her traveling through a wormhole was truly absurd scientifically as the tidal forces would have shredded her unless she was supernatural and could suspend the coupling constants in the fundamental forces, and initiate a transient set to survive the trip. As this is a teaching forum, we are bound by the limits of reality. No time travel backwards, no wormholes, no whiteholes...

after the ground thaws from it's winter freeze, though, worms will appear in cold vernal pools during a spring rain, particularly night-crawlers, and if you use a flashlight with averted illumination, and tread very softly in boots, you can make a good buck as a kid selling them to fishermen by the dozen. Store them in a pile of composting maple leaves, with a little hay, sawdust, a handful of lime, and a touch of manure in a quiet area of the yard behind the garage.... When you pull up the worms there...you'll find a real wormhole. pete

Jerry
2008-Jan-27, 04:25 PM
There are many places mathematics can go that have no bases in reality. Modern cartoon characters adapt wormhole features all the time - stretching, bending, walking away from searing heat, gigantic leaps and falls. It is a fun place to play, but not a good place to spend research funding.

Astro_boy
2008-Jan-29, 04:40 AM
I found a pretty good wormhole faq through Wikipedia.

https://webfiles.uci.edu/erodrigo/www/WormholeFAQ.html

It answered a lot of my questions.:)