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View Full Version : The anti-graviton instead of dark energy.



Fadingstar
2008-Feb-15, 05:39 PM
Okay. I thought I'd take a stab at the ATM section just to say I have done it. Excuse the bit popping up earlier, must have hit the wrong key...

Anyway, an intriguing idea is that gravity is caused by the graviton, and the clumping of galaxies etc is helped by the anti-graviton.

Now, the graviton being the weak force cannot do this on its own, so relies on its partner the anti-graviton to help it. Imagine they are like oil and water.
The graviton is attracted to matter where as an anti-graviton just doesn't want to be near a graviton or matter. So as gravitons clump together by their own attraction to mass, so anti-gravitons push them away and clump together in the empty bits of space.
One could hypothosize that the anti-gravitons apply a constant pressure against matter and the graviton, while the graviton within the matter pushes back at the anti-graviton.
A small but constant force between the two would allow for the acceleration of galaxies as they constantly seek to get away from each other, the network of the universe caused by clumps of anti-gravitons seperated from other clumps by gravitons trapped in between.

Anyway, it was just a thought that occurred to me and seemed reasonable at this time.

Bogie
2008-Feb-18, 11:55 PM
Okay. I thought I'd take a stab at the ATM section just to say I have done it. Excuse the bit popping up earlier, must have hit the wrong key...

Anyway, an intriguing idea is that gravity is caused by the graviton, and the clumping of galaxies etc is helped by the anti-graviton.

Now, the graviton being the weak force cannot do this on its own, so relies on its partner the anti-graviton to help it. Imagine they are like oil and water.
The graviton is attracted to matter where as an anti-graviton just doesn't want to be near a graviton or matter. So as gravitons clump together by their own attraction to mass, so anti-gravitons push them away and clump together in the empty bits of space.
One could hypothosize that the anti-gravitons apply a constant pressure against matter and the graviton, while the graviton within the matter pushes back at the anti-graviton.
A small but constant force between the two would allow for the acceleration of galaxies as they constantly seek to get away from each other, the network of the universe caused by clumps of anti-gravitons seperated from other clumps by gravitons trapped in between.

Anyway, it was just a thought that occurred to me and seemed reasonable at this time.I like it. It shows that you are out there thinking, and that you don't mind going public with your ideas.

So the graviton and the anti-graviton don't annihilate each other? OK, why not?

dgavin
2008-Feb-19, 04:13 AM
I like it. It shows that you are out there thinking, and that you don't mind going public with your ideas.

So the graviton and the anti-graviton don't annihilate each other? OK, why not?

Let me take a stab at it. The repulsive nature of the anti-graviton pushes all mass away from it including gravitons. The attractive nature of the graviton attracts all mass including anti-gravitons.

If the two of the particles intersect, they will tend to either vere off at strange angles, or reach an equilibrium and orbit each other. This orbiting state of a graviton/anti-graviton makes a standing gravity wave.

When a graviton, or an anti graviton passed through the bary center of this orbit, the standing wave form and particles do collapse into a quantum wormhole thats lasts for a very very short time.

Prediction:

This collapse into a quantum wormhole of a graviton/anti graviton pair, should be preceeded by a small GRB event that would barly be detectable above the background radiation.

Ara Pacis
2008-Feb-21, 08:01 PM
How does it interact with photons?

cjl
2008-Feb-21, 08:36 PM
"Let me take a stab at it. The repulsive nature of the anti-graviton pushes all mass away from it including gravitons. The attractive nature of the graviton attracts all mass including anti-gravitons."

You realize that this could result in an energy generating perpetual motion machine, right?

Fadingstar
2008-Feb-22, 02:16 AM
Wow... I didn't think I was going to get a reply to this.

The biggest problem I've had with it so far was that on reading more into gravitons, some claim it has no charge like a photon or neutrino, and others say it does.
If it has no charge then there couldn't be an anti-graviton, which kind of bowls it over at the first hurdle.

But, let's assume it has a very weak charge.
On thinking about this a bit more I thought, why does the graviton have to be a naked particle. Could it not be embedded deep within the struture of matter...

(I really don't know enough about spin particles and the little fiddly things and such, but if it has mass then the assumption is that at its heart is a graviton/gravitons.)

If this was the case, then the particle would be a protective shell for the graviton, thus not allowing the anti-graviton to come into contact with it and so preventing mutual anihalation.

Also, the anti-graviton would be a naked particle because it doesn't like matter. Perhaps a better analogy than oil and water would be like two south poles of a magnet. They repel each other.

So, to take it further, the anti-graviton, a naked particle, sits in the void of space and emits very weak anti-gravity waves, while the graviton sits in its particle suit of armour and emits very weak gravity waves.

Now, (I'm still thinking this through and developing what I typed earlier, so please bear with me).

Could not the lattice shape of the universe be because of wave interaction?
Think lots of little waves spreading out from each group of anti-graviton/graviton, and then combining to make bigger waves.
If the waves are emitted at the speed of light, and the vibration (is that spin as well?) of the particle is not ridiculously fast, then the wave would be stretched as it left the particle, giving a far longer and more 'workable' (was best word I could think of for the observation of the effect of gravity) wave length.
Thus the voids are the troughs and matter is at the peaks of the waves combining from the anti-gravitons and gravitons. Still thinking on cancellation of waves and the observable result.
Okay, very rough around the edges and loose at the seams. But still working on it.

ETA...

We could assume that things like black holes have a glut on gravitons thus creating very high peaks.


ETA...

Photons would still only be effected by the result of gravity, being space-time curvature. Having no mass they are allowed to ignore the graviton/anti-graviton particles in a wavy sort of way.

Fadingstar
2008-Feb-23, 11:21 PM
On thinking about the cancellation of waves, I've come to a conclusion where I think it can be allowed for.

We can reasonably assume that the universe is saturated with these waves, and that there is no place where there is one without the other, or, none at all. A place where there is cancellation of waves would just be a null environment, so there is neither pull or push.

The fact that things can whizz through space without being slowed or changing direction with respect to Newton's laws would suggest that this could be feasible, being that anti-gravity waves are restricted by wave cancellation whilst gravity waves are enhanced by the presence of matter.
So a null enviroment would produce no effect to matter passing through, only the immediate effect caused by the matter itself.

To add; one of the interesting things about the hypothetical graviton is the fact it would have no mass, because gravitational force has unlimited range. So the particles cannot be effected by the anti-gravity/gravity waves in themselves.

I would now hypothosize that repulsion between pairs would be because of the influnce of matter rather than the particles themselves. Gravitons are attracted and at the heart of matter while anti-gravitons are repulsed and pushed away from matter. Therefore mutual annihalation is also prevented by the existance of matter rather than just encasing the graviton in matter.

Now, if we go back to the Big Bang, we could hypothosize that at the very beginning of expansion gravitons were a naked particle, due to there being just energy and no matter, while the current consensus seems to be that the annihilation of a graviton creates two photons.

Assuming that the annihilation of paired particles was greater than the splitting of paired particles, we could hypothosize that at the moment of expansion there was initially a massive release of light, while the remaining pairs were split apart.
Thus we could say that the reason for gravity being the weak force is because the amount of gravitons remaining were disproportional small compared to the original amount.

As the expansion continued, we could assume that matter began forming around gravitons because without its anti-graviton partner it now had an attractive force to matter rather than a neutral force - similar to the way ice forms around a dirt particle in clouds - which in turn kept it isolated from the anti-graviton.
As the universe grew so wave interaction became more pronounced and matter moved accordingly within the expansion frame.

Iori Fujita
2008-Feb-24, 12:12 AM
Dark Matter and/or Dark Energy is Light!
http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/galaxy/galaxy01.html
Iori Fujita

Fadingstar
2008-Feb-24, 02:15 AM
Firstly, thanks for the link.

But you cannot say dark matter/energy is light, as you are presenting a hypothesis. So you should have said it maybe light.

You talk of a separation force and light interacting with gravity fields and turning into matter, of which the latter is extremely debatable.
And what is this separation force you talk of? F! What is F?
And by saying gravity fields are you disputing gravity waves?

What do other scientists say of your hypothesis?

I am not disputing dark matter, merely hypothesising the force which would allow for the acceleration of galaxies within the expansion frame, and the origins of gravity.
I'm not even sure if we are arguing about the same thing!

However, I am no scientist or claim to be one, nor do I assume to tell you what is and isn't right or wrong.

Perhaps you could open a fresh thread and give your hypothesis in laymans terms so us mere mortals can comprehend more what you are trying to say, and where others of a more mathematical nature than me can link to see the validity of your equations.

TheNick
2008-Feb-24, 11:49 PM
The basics of this theory seem VERRRRY similar to what I proposed in my very first post on this forum! Although, you seem to be taking a much different approach to fleshing it out. The link is below. Forgive the long-winded introduction. You'll find pretty much all my subsequent posts on that thread provide more clarification of how I was thinking:

http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/68019-several-theories.html

Fadingstar
2008-Feb-25, 12:34 AM
The basics of this theory seem VERRRRY similar to what I proposed in my very first post on this forum! Although, you seem to be taking a much different approach to fleshing it out.

Read your link, but I'm not invoking negative matter. I'm purely dealing with the graviton, which, like the photon, is not matter in itself.
One thing I did do before starting this thread was search for threads on gravitons across the BAUT site. Needless to say, your thread did not come up.

I am talking about a hypothetical particle which, as yet, has not been observed, nor have the gravity waves It would be expected to emit.

But it would be nice if those running the CERN LHC turned round at the end of the day and said "Hey! It's working, and you'll never guess what we've found...":)

Occams Ghost
2008-Feb-29, 05:42 PM
Hey, the graviton might not even exist!

Occams Ghost
2008-Feb-29, 05:44 PM
Plus... how do you reckon this?

''and the clumping of galaxies etc is helped by the anti-graviton.''

spacestart.eu
2008-Feb-29, 07:27 PM
We will soon find out with the LHC

Fadingstar
2008-Mar-01, 07:44 PM
Plus... how do you reckon this?

''and the clumping of galaxies etc is helped by the anti-graviton.''


By the combined effect of being pulled together by the graviton and pushed away by the anti-graviton.

Fadingstar
2008-Mar-01, 07:51 PM
We will soon find out with the LHC

I hope..

Also I expect the graviton will have particle/wave duality like the photon. But also wonder if gravity waves can only travel in straight lines.
The last would be interesting by the fact they would be distorted by their own effect on space-time (being curvature of space-time), which would make proving the point one way or the other quite difficult I feel.