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HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-13, 03:04 AM
Moved to new thread because it was way off topic in the original one


I can identify with that. Same way around here with apples. From mid-August until about the first snow, nobody leaves without a bag of apples. I think we are going to get a cider press for this fall.

I'm starting with apples rather big this year, found a very cheap source for both rootstock and a good selection of cultivar scions.

I received the scions yesterday and is going to start grafting tomorrow and expect to get at least the 9 trees where the rootstock was planted last autumn done, though I still have a bit of planning to do to decide which of the 14 types I received that are going on those 9.

The rest are going on trees that won't get permanent homes until later and on an existing tree that hasn't been bearing any fruit for a couple of years, so I'm trying to renew it by cutting it down to the major branches and grafting new scions on all of them.

I picked the varieties to get as wide a spread of ripening times as possible and think I've managed to cover 11 months of the year for edible apples, my original goal was an apple a day all year round:)

Anyone here who has tried grafting apples before who has any advice?

BigDon
2008-Mar-13, 10:19 AM
I'm a little too tired right now Mr. Olsen, but I used to be a greenhouseman for a number of years. I'll get back to you.

NEOWatcher
2008-Mar-13, 12:28 PM
...Anyone here who has tried grafting apples before who has any advice?
I wish I could remember some stuff my dad did with some dwarf trees we had that I could suggest.
We ended up with trees that had different varieties and colors of apples on the same tree.

farmerjumperdon
2008-Mar-13, 06:59 PM
I know it is not very difficult; a friend of mine who's family owns a couple of the biggest orchards in the Twin Cirties area explained it to me. They have years where they put in 1,000 trees or more - - all grafted onto specialized root stock.

He actually gave me the root stock names to use (they are actually numbers like L51 and such). It might be different for your area though. I'm told most or all of the trees around here are grafted on to some very hardy stock of Russian origin. We've got Harrel Reds, Fireside, Beacon, and Honey Crisp all grafted onto them.

I've also got a few Braeburns my kids planted from seeds. Amazingly, they are hanging in there for their 3rd year. I don't think they are supposed to be able to survive our winters, but I'm not telling themn that.

farmerjumperdon
2008-Mar-13, 07:32 PM
OK, gave my friend Orchardman a quick call (found him emerging from a nearby telephone booth). He had me Google for Bud 9. He also mentioned rootstock M111 as the favorite for our area. Apparently it depends on the environment and what you want from the tree. He said Bud 9 will get you apples by the 2nd year. I only had a minute but I'm assuming M111 has cold hardiness and heavy soil friendliness as main attributes - - since that is what we have here.

Anyway, the google search turned up a trove of sites (doesn't it always) with lots of information on roots and grafting. Happy surfing.

farmerjumperdon
2008-Mar-13, 07:47 PM
More news from Orchardman:

This might help. We are planting about 2,000 apple trees this spring and the majority will be on BUD-9. Our current orchard has a lot of M111. They take longer to grow - about 5 years but they are very hardy and keep producing well. BUD-9's on the other hand are there to give you a very quick crop of apples but the trees require staking and grow small along with a small number of apples per tree. M111 require 10 - 15 ft apart during planting. BUD-9's require about 4 - 6 ft apart.

http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/rootstock.htm

HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-13, 08:22 PM
The rootstock I have is M7, should make trees at about 70% the size of those grafted on "wild" rootstock.
My source also had MM106 which should be about the same but better for different soil (can't remember which) and M9 which is 40% of the wild rootstock and definitely needs staking.

I think the M series is named for the East Malling horticultural research center where they're been developed, but I could easily be wrong.

I wrote the previous before following the link, funny to see I got something right, including picking the right rootstock for my soil.

Due to space constrains I have to keep the trees small, but picked the semi-dwarfing rather than the fully dwarfing rootstock because I'll be training them in espaliers, so I think I'll need a bit more vigor to play against than the dwarfing rootstock would give.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-13, 08:58 PM
The rootstock I bought is 20 M7's, should make trees at about 70% the size of those grafted on "wild" rootstock.
My source also had MM106 which should be about the same but better for different soil (can't remember which) and M9 which is 40% of the wild rootstock and definitely needs staking.

I think the M series is named for the East Malling horticultural research center where they're been developed, but I could easily be wrong.

I wrote the previous before following the link, funny to see I got something right, including picking the right rootstock for my soil.


Due to space constrains I have to keep the trees small, I picked the semi-dwarfing rather than the fully dwarfing rootstock because I plan to train them in espalier, so I think I'll need a bit more vigor to play against than the fully dwarfing rootstock would give.

At the moment my thinking is that at 2$ per root and 2$ per scion (0.5$ for each extra of the same variety) I can definitely afford to experiment a bit, so I'm doing some thinking about different ways to grow a wall of apple trees.:)

My favorite idea at the moment is a variant belgian weave which I think I can do by pruning at each Y and letting two shoots grow below the cut, with one row of forks(Y's) and one row of grafts(X's) added per year, though I have no real idea of how feasable it is in real life.


\ \ \ \ \
\ \ / \ / \ / \
\ X X X )
\ / \ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Y Y Y Y
/ / / /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
X X X X
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \
( Y Y Y \
\ \ \ \ \
\ \ / \ / \ / \
\ X X X )
\ / \ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Y Y Y Y

Fraser
2008-Mar-13, 10:34 PM
That's very cool! I just planted the peas in our garden, and I'm going to try growing the tomatoes and peppers from seed this year. Let me know how it works out, and give me your source for the root stock, etc. I might get a tree or two of my own.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-13, 10:48 PM
My source is http://www.de-gamle-sorter.dk/ but I doubt it would help you, both because it's in Danish and because I don't think you're allowed to import living plants without lots of paperwork and careful quarantine.

The name De Gamle Sorter basically means The Old Varieties, his main focus is on older Danish varieties.

farmerjumperdon
2008-Mar-14, 12:00 PM
That's cool, the espalier thing. I've thought about doing that with peaches. Don't know if they lend themselves to it or not but my local nursery guy said there are peach hybrids now that can be grown this far north. Next sentence he mentioned they had to be covered in winter. Seems to be quite the conditional statement. I mean, how many people are going to cover an entire tree every winter?

The other idea I had was to build a nice sturdy frame house-like structure, maybe 20' by 20' and 15' tall, with little peaks and gables and all. Then plant a dozen or so apple trees around the base and espalier them up thru the framework. Cool, heh? And really easy access to all the apples.

I ended up doing it on a slightly smaller scale and planted ivy instead. So far it has grown up the walls nicely and has got a good start on the roof.

Ivan Viehoff
2008-Mar-14, 12:13 PM
I've also got a few Braeburns my kids planted from seeds. Amazingly, they are hanging in there for their 3rd year. I don't think they are supposed to be able to survive our winters, but I'm not telling themn that.
Although I don't doubt that the seeds came out of a Braeburn, I think it is unlikely that what you are growing are Braeburns. Apples do not come true from seed, except rarely when you get a freak seed that thinks it is a cutting. Trees grown from pips are known as "wildlings", and two seeds from the same fruit can produce quite different trees because of the genetic diversity of the material in the seeds. The fruit they produce is frequently not even edible, though you can be lucky.

farmerjumperdon
2008-Mar-14, 03:29 PM
Although I don't doubt that the seeds came out of a Braeburn, I think it is unlikely that what you are growing are Braeburns. Apples do not come true from seed, except rarely when you get a freak seed that thinks it is a cutting. Trees grown from pips are known as "wildlings", and two seeds from the same fruit can produce quite different trees because of the genetic diversity of the material in the seeds. The fruit they produce is frequently not even edible, though you can be lucky.

So I'm growing a few mutts, heh? And like a typical mutt; I'll only know what we have when they grow up? Hadn't thought about it before, but they have yet to flower.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-14, 03:57 PM
That's cool, the espalier thing. I've thought about doing that with peaches. Don't know if they lend themselves to it or not but my local nursery guy said there are peach hybrids now that can be grown this far north. Next sentence he mentioned they had to be covered in winter. Seems to be quite the conditional statement. I mean, how many people are going to cover an entire tree every winter?
From what I read peaches are normally espaliered against a wall in a palmette shape, with the wall helping to collect the extra heat needed, which allows them to grow where it's a bit colder.
It's easier to cover an essentially flat shape than a normal tree, so it is feasable, and is also the recommended practice in Denmark.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Mar-16, 04:22 AM
Oh well, all the apple grafts are done, now it's a matter of waiting to see if they succeed.
And fretting about the weather which apparently will turn frosty again, just as I have 15 newly grafted trees outside. :-(

With the 8 scions I grafted to an existing tree to rejuvenate it, that's 23 grafts ready to go wrong.

mugaliens
2008-Mar-16, 08:34 AM
I'm so glad to have found a thread like this on Baut!

Neat!

I've little experience with it, other than the fact that my ex's father in law grafted pretty much everything he had into everything else he had.

I've eaten my share of strange-tasting fruits.

It's all for the best, and he, at his heart, is a good man, so life goes on.

mugaliens
2008-Mar-16, 08:43 AM
I think the M series is named for the East Malling horticultural research center where they're been developed, but I could easily be wrong.

I wrote the previous before following the link, funny to see I got something right, including picking the right rootstock for my soil.

Good for you!


Due to space constrains I have to keep the trees small, I picked the semi-dwarfing rather than the fully dwarfing rootstock because I plan to train them in espalier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espalier), so I think I'll need a bit more vigor to play against than the fully dwarfing rootstock would give.

At the moment my thinking is that at 2$ per root and 2$ per scion (0.5$ for each extra of the same variety) I can definitely afford to experiment a bit, so I'm doing some thinking about different ways to grow a wall of apple trees.:)

My favorite idea at the moment is a variant belgian weave which I think I can do by pruning at each Y and letting two shoots grow below the cut, with one row of forks(Y's) and one row of grafts(X's) added per year, though I have no real idea of how feasable it is in real life.


\ \ \ \ \
\ \ / \ / \ / \
\ X X X )
\ / \ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Y Y Y Y
/ / / /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
X X X X
/ \ / \ / \ / \
/ \ / \ / \ / \
( Y Y Y \
\ \ \ \ \
\ \ / \ / \ / \
\ X X X )
\ / \ / \ / \ /
\ / \ / \ / \ /
Y Y Y Y


Sounds complicated. My view of horticulture is that things develope better when not actually developed.

Perhaps not.

We do plant corn in rows, don't we???

hhEb09'1
2008-Mar-16, 10:00 AM
Sounds complicated. My view of horticulture is that things develope better when not actually developed. Apples almost have to be grafted, though, to get the desired end product

HenrikOlsen
2008-May-11, 06:11 PM
Good for you!



Sounds complicated. My view of horticulture is that things develope better when not actually developed.

Perhaps not.

We do plant corn in rows, don't we???
You plant(actually sow) corn in large fields, not in rows:)

That it's done in rows within the field is mostly a matter of machinery dictating how the plants are cultured.

From what I know about corn; since it's wind pollinated, making a single row is setting yourself up for a very bad harvest if the wind is in the wrong direction while it's flowering.
That's not a problem for whole fields, but for small gardens it can be ruinous for the yield.

For apples, as they are insect pollinated, being in rows just makes them easier to find:)

PS, Yes, it's thread necrophilia, but I'm still curious about what BD has to add. :)

hhEb09'1
2008-May-11, 06:20 PM
I'm still curious about what BD has to add. :)I'll send up the Badsignal

BigDon

BigDon
2008-May-23, 07:27 PM
Whoa! What's up, hhEB?


Sorry guys, I had to take some time off from posting. Wow its the 23rd already! I last logged in on the 9th.

Whenever I get really angry over something in politics I find its best not to post here as I know full well I'll ease a snide comment in a post against the rules and all. And later I feel bad about it 'cause it makes me feel like a punk to take advantage of the mod's good graces as they have a tendency to let me slide on some things. (Thanks though!) But that was only the first five days or so.

You see, we throw LAN parties at my place on weekends I don't have the kids over, and it seems after two years as the old favorite, Empire Earth III is consistantly beatable now even maxed out against us. The logical next choice, the sequel, was a total poochscrew.

But it seems we finally found a replacement, Sins of a Stellar Empire. The story line is a bit sophmoric but the game mechanics rock. Huge learning curve to get ready for the LAN wars though, so I've been emersing myself in it. (Just trying to explain to Mr. Olsen why I was seemingly ignoring a PM from him. I wasn't here.)

Wow, I just accidently deleted the lower half of this post! Let me try this again!

Now reading through the threads I have to say I grew ornimentals. And am an avid gardener and aquarist/terrarium keeper, having done both professionally. My one try at working for a food grower didn't work so well for me. But I'm very much open to questions, sir. (I used to give advice over at the now defunct Fishindex. Sometimes good advice.)

Weird how an eight paragragh story boiled down to half of one. Getting a post dumped always gets me off kilter.

BD

Kaptain K
2008-May-24, 05:01 AM
welcome back!

Whenever I get really angry over something in politics I find its best not to post here...
Wish Neverfly could learn that! :(

...am an avid aquarist/terrarium...
Better that than an aquarium/terrorist! :eek: