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View Full Version : I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?



dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 01:44 AM
Well van I would do a infra red scan. Throw a huge net the exact size of the garden down and if it caught nothing i'd say your wrong!! The elf moved you say?? Well the he wouldnt be in your back garden then and youd be wrong!!:dance:

Stick a fork in me..... i'm done!!:whistle:

grant hutchison
2008-Mar-29, 01:51 AM
If he's properly invisible, he's invisible in infrared.
And he's smaller than the mesh in your net.

Grant Hutchison

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 01:54 AM
nothings said about the size of the elf. He is not a microscopic invisible elf now. If thats the case Van will have to change his signature! lol for good measure I'm going to place a firing squad there in a line shooting the length of the garden afterwards. that elfs coming out in a body bag if he is there!!

Bearded One
2008-Mar-29, 01:57 AM
My invisible Elf is transparent to all forms of radiation and matter. Your net would just pass through him. Problem is the Elf fell through the ground and is now stuck at the center of the Earth. Technically, he is still in my backyard though as Earth's center is directly below.

grant hutchison
2008-Mar-29, 02:01 AM
nothings said about the size of the elf.So you just assumed it was a large elf? Oops, your mistake.

Grant Hutchison

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 02:04 AM
Your ssuming my net holes are larger than he is?? Your mistake!

bigsplit
2008-Mar-29, 02:05 AM
My invisible Elf is transparent to all forms of radiation and matter. Your net would just pass through him. .

Then for any physical purposes your creature does not exist and can only exist for any applicable purposes in the imagination.








Problem is the Elf fell through the ground and is now stuck at the center of the Earth. Technically, he is still in my backyard though as Earth's center is directly below.

The elf could not be affected by gravity as it is the result of matter, so your first premise defeats your second.

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 02:05 AM
My invisible Elf is transparent to all forms of radiation and matter. Your net would just pass through him. Problem is the Elf fell through the ground and is now stuck at the center of the Earth. Technically, he is still in my backyard though as Earth's center is directly below.

he would be under everything if he was there? now if the elf was invisible and at the centre of the earth then that would be hard to disprove! Though he would be dead as well there!

astromark
2008-Mar-29, 02:09 AM
1st ly... If he is made of mater.,and in order to fit the definition of existing then he should be made of something... we should be able to measure the distortions to the gravity field and thus detect his presance.... the only issue here is that I do not know we can actually do that yet.
2nd ly... You say you have a inviable elf... How long have you hated your horse?... Come in and lay on the coach, and tell us all about your childhood.

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 02:13 AM
right im off to bed. don't take this thread too seriously guys!!

grant hutchison
2008-Mar-29, 02:13 AM
Your ssuming my net holes are larger than he is?? Your mistake!By "large" I mean "larger than your net holes". How did you decide how finely to weave the net?

Grant Hutchison

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 02:17 AM
I bought it from ACME. i'm not a net weaver myself. but then again your lf may be tiny. I'm talking about vans elf. his elf lis a standard elf. Then again it begs the question are we talking a D&D elf? or more like a pixie elf?? right im really going to bed now!!

Chuck
2008-Mar-29, 02:26 AM
Elves are mythical and, by definition, do not exist. There might be something elflike and invisible in the back yard but it's not an elf.

Bearded One
2008-Mar-29, 02:44 AM
Then for any physical purposes your creature does not exist and can only exist for any applicable purposes in the imagination.You might be on to something there.

Fadingstar
2008-Mar-29, 04:03 AM
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure! ;)

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 04:13 AM
Well van I would do a infra red scan. Throw a huge net the exact size of the garden down and if it caught nothing i'd say your wrong!! The elf moved you say?? Well the he wouldnt be in your back garden then and youd be wrong!!:dance:

Stick a fork in me..... i'm done!!:whistle:

For your purposes you can assume that the elf has the magical equivalent of a Star Trek phasing cloak or a Star Gate dimensional shifter. Prove me wrong. :lol:

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 04:29 AM
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure! ;)

There have been proposals over the years to napalm, flood, nuke or otherwise cause serious damage to my yard. That wouldn't necessarily affect a phasing elf, nor would it affect the conditions of my argument. After all, the statement is not, "I say there will be an invisible elf in my yard after you nuke it."

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 04:32 AM
I Ask you to show me the Elf.

If you cannot provide evidence, then until you can the Elf does not exist.

(The proof is upon the person making the claim)

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 04:41 AM
I Ask you to show me the Elf.

If you cannot provide evidence, then until you can it does not exist.

(The proof is upon the person making the claim)

I'd put that as: When making a scientific argument, it is up to the person making the claim to support their claim with evidence. Of course, that's the point of the invisible elf. It started as a response to ATM claims, where the claimant often retreats to "prove me wrong" to whatever notion they're pushing. The "invisible elf" is meant as an amusing example of a similar claim. Of course, those who make "invisible elf" claims always seem to think their claim should be taken seriously, even though they have no more evidence for it than I do for the elf.

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 04:46 AM
I'd put that as: When making a scientific argument, it is up to the person making the claim to support their claim with evidence. Of course, that's the point of the invisible elf. It started as a response to ATM claims, where the claimant often retreats to "prove me wrong" to whatever notion they're pushing. The "invisible elf" is meant as an amusing example of a similar claim. Of course, those who make "invisible elf" claims always seem to think their claim should be taken seriously, even though they have no more evidence for it than I do for the elf.


Yep. This is where the Spaghetti Monster comes from.

RalofTyr
2008-Mar-29, 05:20 AM
There's no such things as an "Elf".

Tobin Dax
2008-Mar-29, 05:37 AM
There's no such things as an "Elf".
Next, you'll be telling me that there's no such things as fairies. :(

People, it's an invisble elf. If it's invisible to all radiation, isn't it likely that your conventional nets won't be able to catch it?

(Ooh, maybe it's a dark elf. :D)

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 06:11 AM
There's no such things as an "Elf".

Prove it. :D

Oh, regarding your sig:

http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/39521-proof-my-backyard-deer.html

korjik
2008-Mar-29, 08:02 AM
Prove it. :D

Oh, regarding your sig:

http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/39521-proof-my-backyard-deer.html

I thought your elf enlisted and is now force recon in Iraq. Someone here mentioned that a while ago.

:D

lbhloz
2008-Mar-29, 09:04 AM
I think any statement that ends '...prove I'm wrong' is almost cetainly wrong, not even the author seems to believe it.

Whirlpool
2008-Mar-29, 09:56 AM
Prove it. :D

Oh, regarding your sig:

http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/39521-proof-my-backyard-deer.html

Van , I thought you lived in a Condo .

:whistle:

JohnD
2008-Mar-29, 10:15 AM
We seem to be shifting towards what I thought the original user of this signature was saying, rather cleverly IMHO to get around Board rules. For "invisible elf'" read "god-like thing", or if you like, God.

Now that would be an interesting discussion, but one against Board rules, interminable and unresolvable. So I've probably caused the shutdown of this thread.

John

astromark
2008-Mar-29, 10:22 AM
There's no such things as an "Elf".

At a nearby airport I notice on the front grill of a crash tender truck is the word 'Elf '

From this startling revaluation I can conclude that 'Elf" is a brand of truck. You might find one in some ones back yard. Most likely on a nearby motorway. 'Elf' is a trade name of a truck. Them's is real.

I suspect Leprechauns are Irish Elv's... as on its own its a Elf.

Have you taken your medications today dirty_g ?

Can you still see this Elf ?

Would you ask it to come home....Now please.

astromark
2008-Mar-29, 10:45 AM
To provide proof of your Elf. The onus is on you. You are the proposer of this claim, not us. We are a skeptical bunch and will on hearing such claim hence forth disregard any thing you might say as just more nonsense. That is not your intention norr is it mine.
We are conditioned to believe the things of mythology as told by our piers as fact. We know that can not be true. Out of respect for those elders we turn off the ridicule gene.

When you ask us to prove some equally preposterous notion we are some times unable or unwilling to provide that level of put down. Conditioning and education has led me to not except the notion of an Elf. Norr do I expect to see fairies in the garden and the tooth fairy.

dtilque
2008-Mar-29, 11:22 AM
Elves are mythical and, by definition, do not exist. There might be something elflike and invisible in the back yard but it's not an elf.

Could be a gremlin or maybe a gnome.

Sticks
2008-Mar-29, 11:51 AM
You forget what happened to the elf

It went to fight in Afghanistan, got injured went to Bethesda and is now in Congress

See my sig

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 12:13 PM
To provide proof of your Elf. The onus is on you. You are the proposer of this claim, not us. We are a skeptical bunch and will on hearing such claim hence forth disregard any thing you might say as just more nonsense. That is not your intention norr is it mine.
We are conditioned to believe the things of mythology as told by our piers as fact. We know that can not be true. Out of respect for those elders we turn off the ridicule gene.

When you ask us to prove some equally preposterous notion we are some times unable or unwilling to provide that level of put down. Conditioning and education has led me to not except the notion of an Elf. Norr do I expect to see fairies in the garden and the tooth fairy.

But I do have evidence of a Fairy Garden, and it is in my side-yard.

http://www.evileyemonster.com/images2/fairygarden.JPG

(note to mods - this thread is not unrelated to science although it has humor in it. The point of the original poster was to show that claims must backed-up with proof)

Jeff Root
2008-Mar-29, 01:16 PM
Is that a nutmeg beside the bunny / in front of the fairie with her chin in
her hands? Or what? I'm really not much familiar with nutmegs. They're
the only things I know of that look at all like that, but I think it's too big.
It could be a camouflage-colored Easter egg.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 01:17 PM
It's a bobwhite quail. :)

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/marine/mrri/acechar/specgal/image/photos/quail.jpg

steve000
2008-Mar-29, 02:33 PM
But I do have evidence of a Fairy Garden, and it is in my side-yard.

http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/50690/2005290162912340037_rs.jpg

(note to mods - this thread is not unrelated to science although it has humor in it. The point of the original poster was to show that claims must backed-up with proof)

It took me ages to spot that little bird :)

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 02:54 PM
It took me ages to spot that little bird :)

That's probably why they are evolutionarily successful. :lol:

Much like how fairies can disappear.

Nadme
2008-Mar-29, 05:40 PM
I can neither prove nor disprove your claim, hence it's a non-issue.

Gillianren
2008-Mar-29, 05:52 PM
We seem to be shifting towards what I thought the original user of this signature was saying . . . .

If that were what Van Rijn had intended, that sig would've been changed long since, as it is, as you say, against board rules. It's aimed at certain ATM and CT types. As in, "They created a ginormous vacuum chamber and used antigravity to film Apollo! Prove me wrong!"

dirty_g
2008-Mar-29, 06:18 PM
For your purposes you can assume that the elf has the magical equivalent of a Star Trek phasing cloak or a Star Gate dimensional shifter. Prove me wrong. :lol:

if he phased out of the nets reach or into another dimension he would cease to be in your garden. My net also happens to be a lie detector and can tell your fibbing!!!:razz:

it's a spcial net it is aye!!

RalofTyr
2008-Mar-29, 06:48 PM
Knock, knock?






Prove it. :D

Oh, regarding your sig:

http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/39521-proof-my-backyard-deer.html

That's not your backyard.

Now you prove me wrong.

astromark
2008-Mar-29, 07:20 PM
The original point is surly getting a little lost here... (and some of that is entertaining.)
The fact that we can not see that back garden so can not say what is or is not in it. All probability and conditioned education have made it near to impossible for me to except the notion of a living Elf. As in any new presentation of theories. The onus is on the proposer to validate the assumption. Good luck to you.

Chuck
2008-Mar-29, 08:10 PM
What if the proposer is just telling us what he believes because he wants us to know what he believes and doesn't care whether or not we agree with him? Then where is the burden of proof?

Casus_belli
2008-Mar-29, 08:16 PM
Sprinkle the elf in pixie dust. This will make the elf visible.


What do you mean you have no pixie dust? Go ask the pixie that lives in your front yard.

Tone Deaf
2008-Mar-29, 08:31 PM
Nothing outside of logic and mathematics can be proved or disproved. But we can discuss whether an invisible elf in the backyard is a rational belief.

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 09:09 PM
So pi doesn't exist because it is an irrational number?

LaurelHS
2008-Mar-29, 09:18 PM
if he phased out of the nets reach or into another dimension he would cease to be in your garden. My net also happens to be a lie detector and can tell your fibbing!!!:razz:

it's a spcial net it is aye!!

Would the elf even have to phase out of the net's reach? What if it saw the person with the net before the net was deployed? It might have time to climb up a tree or up the side of Van Rijn's house and avoid getting caught. It would technically still be in the backyard, just not on the ground.

Tobin Dax
2008-Mar-29, 09:49 PM
So pi doesn't exist because it is an irrational number?
In that case, would an imaginary irrational number be an oxymoron? Or would it be real?
I think I'm starting to confuse myself. [Not to be confused with my elf, of course. Or Van Rijn's.]

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 10:38 PM
That's not your backyard.

Now you prove me wrong.

Ah, but I provided evidence for it. Anyway, it is my yard, the one I'm debating about mowing in a bit.

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 11:02 PM
If that were what Van Rijn had intended, that sig would've been changed long since, as it is, as you say, against board rules. It's aimed at certain ATM and CT types. As in, "They created a ginormous vacuum chamber and used antigravity to film Apollo! Prove me wrong!"

Exactly. Here you can see (http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-theories/33150-setting-record-straight-sir-charles-shults.html#post570024)(if you care) the point where I made it my sig, per former member's Archer17's suggestion. Look at the quoted statement I responded to ("It is up to you to prove him wrong"). My sig is only intended as a comment on the burden of evidence when making a scientific claim. If someone thinks it is meant as something else, well, sorry, but it isn't.

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-29, 11:10 PM
You forget what happened to the elf

It went to fight in Afghanistan, got injured went to Bethesda and is now in Congress

See my sig

She's telecommuting from my yard. :lol:

Just wanted to comment - I have gotten a kick out of the further adventures of the invisible elf as told in your sig.

EvilEye
2008-Mar-29, 11:18 PM
The Elves are hiding in my Avatar

Steve Limpus
2008-Mar-30, 01:45 AM
Could be a gremlin or maybe a gnome.

... or Mother-In-Law. Invisible mother-in-law - that can't be good.

EvilEye
2008-Mar-30, 02:04 AM
Who do you have to prove to prove something is true?....except yourself?

I ask this because even if I look on Pub Med, or an Astronomy webiste for info, I still have to take it as a belief. I haven't tested it myself. So how can I know for sure?

(for those that are going to yell at me...I'm making a joke and a strawman argument)

RalofTyr
2008-Mar-30, 06:04 AM
Knock knock?

Who's there?

Spanish Inquisition.

I bet you weren't expecting that.

They'll get to the bottom of this "Elf" heresy.





Ah, but I provided evidence for it. Anyway, it is my yard, the one I'm debating about mowing in a bit.


Faulty evidence for it, but good news, you don't have to mow it now!!!

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-30, 06:38 AM
Actually, I did mow most of it today.

Vanamonde
2008-Mar-30, 08:27 AM
All Extremely Low Frequency waves are pretty much invisible. We all have them in our yards. The earth itself has a 8 Hz standing wave resonance, I think. Now only are they in our yards, but they are thought to be in our brains as well:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~matpitka/UFO.html#Schumann

Have you seen the Lain?

dirty_g
2008-Mar-30, 08:28 AM
Would the elf even have to phase out of the net's reach? What if it saw the person with the net before the net was deployed? It might have time to climb up a tree or up the side of Van Rijn's house and avoid getting caught. It would technically still be in the backyard, just not on the ground.

it won't see my net. It's being teleported in by the enterprise. nice an quick.

Vanamonde
2008-Mar-30, 08:45 AM
So pi doesn't exist because it is an irrational number?

Hey, just because something is irrational doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Have you never watched network TV? Or read about the U.S. Congress?

steve000
2008-Mar-30, 12:34 PM
getasenseofhumour.com



if he phased out of the nets reach or into another dimension he would cease to be in your garden

What if the elf could switch to negative net mass mode, would it be accelerated away from the net?( or would it be accelerated towards it :think: always gets me that one).

Gillianren
2008-Mar-30, 05:54 PM
What if the proposer is just telling us what he believes because he wants us to know what he believes and doesn't care whether or not we agree with him? Then where is the burden of proof?

If no one is trying to convince anyone of anything, there is no burden of proof. However, it does bring up the question of why we should care what the person believes if they're unwilling to present evidence for it. (Again, that only applies in certain threads per board rules, but I'm always more interested in why someone believes what they do.)

astromark
2008-Mar-30, 06:38 PM
:)If your grasp on reality is so thin that to you Fairies and goblins and now Elf's are often seen in your back yard then who am I to tell you that is not so. There is not a lot wrong with your belief structure that lets you 'see' or believe in thing others do not. Its only when your behavior changes because of this that an issue arises.
It is not compulsory for you or us to agree, and we will not. For I do not know of Elf's goblins and fairies. I have a strength of character that prohibits the belief in anything that can not be verified by proper scientific methods. Yes I am a atheist. I do not however push my point of view in a religious manor... If you believe you have a invisible Elf. Then you have. I have not yet seen the proof of existence of a Elf, so find it a little difficult to except as fact. That does not give me the right to tell you it is not so. However that is obviously how I see this issue. As fiction.
I make the connection to 'Dawkins' writings on religion as a little religious in the method of conviction of belief. So you go into your back garden and enjoy the company of those Elf's.... I will cuddle my blanket and drink coffee...

RalofTyr
2008-Mar-30, 06:56 PM
The point is, that since the elf is invisible, not even Van Rijn is in a position to be able to prove or disprove his claim, for he lacks the physical knowledge of his claim. The only knowledge he has of his claim is his imagination. So, his claim can be dismissed as pure speculation, as Van Rijn has no evidence to back up his claim.

Chuck
2008-Mar-30, 07:50 PM
If no one is trying to convince anyone of anything, there is no burden of proof. However, it does bring up the question of why we should care what the person believes if they're unwilling to present evidence for it. (Again, that only applies in certain threads per board rules, but I'm always more interested in why someone believes what they do.)
I might need to know whether to put "Invisible Elf Sauce", "Invisible Pixie Dip", or "Invisible Dragon Tenderizer" labels on the empty jars that I'm going to sell to him.

Lord Jubjub
2008-Mar-30, 09:21 PM
I was just thinking that if I claimed the American flag consisted of purple and green blobs with yellow moons in a brown circle, most people would question my definition of my terms if not my sanity.

Unless we get a definition of elves, invisibility, backyards or even existence, the claim is so much noise--signifying nothing.

Nereid
2008-Mar-30, 11:20 PM
Actually, I did mow most of it today.No you didn't, the invisible elf mowed it ... prove that she didn't [insert blowing raspberry smilie here]

OR

No you didn't; prove that it's actually been mown, and not merely had a few grass leaves painted with invisible paint.

OR

...

Sticks
2008-Mar-31, 05:18 AM
Actually Van Rijn's elf phoned to say that he is away visiting Disney land. He says he has met this cute little pixie, but as he is running from elected office, he wants to be discrete due to the paparazzi

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-31, 06:04 AM
Actually Van Rijn's elf phoned to say that he is away visiting Disney land. He says he has met this cute little pixie, but as he is running from elected office, he wants to be discrete due to the paparazzi

That's obviously another invisible elf.

Van Rijn
2008-Mar-31, 06:26 AM
No you didn't, the invisible elf mowed it ... prove that she didn't [insert blowing raspberry smilie here]

OR

No you didn't; prove that it's actually been mown, and not merely had a few grass leaves painted with invisible paint.

OR

...

I wish the invisible elf would mow the lawn, but unfortunately that just doesn't seem to happen. I suppose I could provide photos of the grass clippings, the lawn mower, etc. but I just can't seem to work up the enthusiasm to defend the "mowing claim" against counterclaims. Ah well . . . .

DyerWolf
2008-Mar-31, 05:12 PM
My invisible Elf is transparent to all forms of radiation and matter.


This would make him a "Dark Elf" wouldn't it?

Mister Earl
2008-Mar-31, 05:20 PM
I would wall off his backyard, then flood it with concrete and allow it to harden. Once this is done, I would then cut the concrete into easily moveable chunks, and then take each piece to a rock crushing plant. Thus giving my answer: It doesn't matter whether there was an invisable elf there or not. We know for certain that if there was, it isn't there now :D

Gillianren
2008-Mar-31, 05:41 PM
That's obviously another invisible elf.

Especially since you've always said that yours is a she.

idav
2008-Mar-31, 05:50 PM
No. You show me evidence in support. :-Ģ

Infinity Watcher
2008-Mar-31, 05:55 PM
My solution to the thing would be to find a way to end up in possession of Van Rijin's home ensuring that he does not move to anywhere else with a garden, we have thus solved the problem of the elf in Van Rijin's backyard if not the problem of the elf itself (its elf?).

Swift
2008-Mar-31, 05:56 PM
Really folks, the invisible elf is quite simple to prove.

First, consider a point-elf in a spherical backyard....



equations (http://www.math.umn.edu/~gulliver/images/jchoe/IMG_0850.JPG)
:think:

John Mendenhall
2008-Mar-31, 07:27 PM
The elf is invisible and is influenced by gravity. Does the elf have a gravititational field himself? How many of these elves are there in the universe? There may be the answer to an important cosmological question here. Invisible elves may be generated when the CERN improvements come online.

idav
2008-Mar-31, 07:33 PM
The elf is invisible and is influenced by gravity. Does the elf have a gravititational field himself? How many of these elves are there in the universe? There may be the answer to an important cosmological question here. Invisible elves may be generated when the CERN improvements come online.

I have a serious aversion to elves... where does one get in line to sue CERN & Co.?

Casus_belli
2008-Mar-31, 07:43 PM
I believe in elfs, its backyards that I cannot believe in.

This whole thread shows that we all have waaaay to much time on our hands.

matthewota
2008-Apr-01, 01:29 AM
George Ellery Hale had an elf that talked to him over his shoulder, but look what he did - he founded Yerkes Observatory, Mount Wilson Observatory, and Palomar Observatory....

Matthew Ota

Tobin Dax
2008-Apr-01, 12:46 PM
This would make him a "Dark Elf" wouldn't it?
Somebody needs to read the thread better. :mad:

People, it's an invisble elf. If it's invisible to all radiation, isn't it likely that your conventional nets won't be able to catch it?

(Ooh, maybe it's a dark elf. :D)

jlhredshift
2008-Apr-01, 01:10 PM
This is an Elf Conjecture.

Chuck
2008-Apr-02, 04:41 PM
I asked my invisible dragon about Van Rijn's elf since it's common knowledge that dragons don't lie. He then borrowed some barbecue sauce, flew off, came back an hour later, burped, and told me there is no elf.

Chip
2008-Apr-02, 04:48 PM
Perhaps the invisible elf is renewing its atomic structure microsecond by microsecond while Van Rijn sleeps in the Krell lab, (located in the basement under his automated home.)

DyerWolf
2008-Apr-02, 06:44 PM
Somebody needs to read the thread better. :mad:

Yah, I quoted the line without scrolling the entire three pages... Tobin beat me to it and gets credit for originality. Guess great minds think alike.






(P.S. I've been wondering how long it would take for someone to point this out... looks like you're the weener.)

LaurelHS
2008-Apr-02, 08:36 PM
Maybe the invisible dragon ate the wrong elf by mistake. That means the invisible elf in Van Rijn's yard is still there.

Chuck
2008-Apr-02, 10:25 PM
I did a DNA test on the remains from between the dragon's teeth. There is no error.

Chip
2008-Apr-02, 10:38 PM
Maybe the existence of the invisible elf in Van Rijnís backyard (regardless of detection or invisibility,) is dependent on the state of subatomic particles. The Copenhagen interpretation implies that the elf is both detected and undetected until someone can look.

RalofTyr
2008-Apr-02, 11:20 PM
A couple tons of black powered ignited in his back yard should prove conclusively that there's no invisible elf in his back yard.

Sticks
2008-Apr-03, 05:12 AM
That's obviously another invisible elf.

Asked him that, he says the one in the backyard is an imposter :confused:

Neverfly
2008-Apr-03, 06:54 AM
A couple tons of black powered ignited in his back yard should prove conclusively that there's no invisible elf in his back yard.

Since the invisible elf watched you putting all the black powder kegs around the yard- he went off to a friends house and drank Dr Pepper and played video games while you blew the yard to bits. He came back later, giddy and refreshed with a bit of a sugar rush and laughed at what you did to the yard.

BigDon
2008-Apr-03, 07:47 AM
Alright guys I can settle this once and for all.

The signiture has to be a bluff and I can list the points why in a logical, concise, manner why it has to be so. :hand:

I've been studying elves and fairies since 1976. That's when I saw the Wild Hunt for the first time. Not after me, thank God. I was fishing on the shore just north of San Francisco airport on a cold winter night. So there was an inlet some 200 feet across where the fresh water Colma Creek runs into the bay between me and them and I was very, very glad.

I've since learned they don't mind taking targets of opportunity as well as the main quarry. This is mostly men so far removed from the protection of God, that, well, the Wild Hunt can select you. The best defense if you are accidently caught up in a Hunt is prayer. Other things have worked, but that seems the most consistantly successful. If you can pray, it means you are not prey. If you are the Quarry, you probably aren't going to think of prayer so the point is always moot.

Back to Van Rijn's elf.

We can presume with some safety that Mr. Van Rijn resides in a modern domicile with electricity and plumbing and such things as he has an internet connection.

So right there we have waaaay too much free iron. Free iron is deadly to both elves and fairies. (one is a subset of the other) . Since most are functionally immortal they try to avoid dying if they can help it. Because of this functional immortality they have no afterlife. They exist only in the present. Death for them is destruction. Even the sound of iron ringing from being struck is painful for them.

Next point, their hearing. How long could you tolerate listening to what was going on in every room of every house within a 500 foot radius? Why do you think they only live in lonely places now?

If he actually had one in his backyard, let's say because he lived in a tree in Oregon and had a hand-crank computer he wouldn't be boasting about it. He would be trying to find some way to get rid of it. Move it on down the road as it were. Because it will not ignore Mr. Van Rijn. That's a very important point.

Now if he has a wife and/or children the risk increases dramatically. They are not safe around children. This is because they are not *us*. They are *other* and while not meaning any evil, often don't know what is harmful to us. Would you like your four year old to be invited to come blow bubbles in the family swimming pool? It's great good fun! Though some do this intentionally, and not just to children. The process of watching the soul depart the flesh is compulsively fascinating to these particular ones.

They are also known to beat wives they percieve to be lazy. How often does that have to happen before it gets old? Think about that. Your sweetheart, beaten with a stick, because she left dirty dishs overnight in the sink.

There. That is my argument gentlemen. It's a bluff because no sane responsible man would risk it.

Neverfly
2008-Apr-03, 08:10 AM
Alright guys I can settle this once and for all.

The signiture has to be a bluff and I can list the points why in a logical, concise, manner why it has to be so. :hand:

I've been studying elves and fairies since 1976. That's when I saw the Wild Hunt for the first time. Not after me, thank God. I was fishing on the shore just north of San Francisco airport on a cold winter night. So there was an inlet some 200 feet across where the fresh water Colma Creek runs into the bay between me and them and I was very, very glad.

I've since learned they don't mind taking targets of opportunity as well as the main quarry. This is mostly men so far removed from the protection of God, that, well, the Wild Hunt can select you. The best defense if you are accidently caught up in a Hunt is prayer. Other things have worked, but that seems the most consistantly successful. If you can pray, it means you are not prey. If you are the Quarry, you probably aren't going to think of prayer so the point is always moot.

Back to Van Rijn's elf.

We can presume with some safety that Mr. Van Rijn resides in a modern domicile with electricity and plumbing and such things as he has an internet connection.

So right there we have waaaay too much free iron. Free iron is deadly to both elves and fairies. (one is a subset of the other) . Since most are functionally immortal they try to avoid dying if they can help it. Because of this functional immortality they have no afterlife. They exist only in the present. Death for them is destruction. Even the sound of iron ringing from being struck is painful for them.

Well the electrical lines would be copper and if the plumbing is all copper or PVC- that greatly reduces the iron.
If Van Rijn takes his formal clothes to the cleaners rather than doing them himself- that eliminates the iron altogether.


Next point, their hearing. How long could you tolerate listening to what was going on in every room of every house within a 500 foot radius? Why do you think they only live in lonely places now?
This particular elf may be deaf.
And we also have no idea how big Van Rijns back yard is. He could be sitting on several lonely acres.


If he actually had one in his backyard, let's say because he lived in a tree in Oregon and had a hand-crank computer he wouldn't be boasting about it. He would be trying to find some way to get rid of it. Move it on down the road as it were. Because it will not ignore Mr. Van Rijn. That's a very important point.
The elf may be codependent.


Now if he has a wife and/or children the risk increases dramatically. They are not safe around children. This is because they are not *us*. They are *other* and while not meaning any evil, often don't know what is harmful to us. Would you like your four year old to be invited to come blow bubbles in the family swimming pool? It's great good fun! Though some do this intentionally, and not just to children. The process of watching the soul depart the flesh is compulsively fascinating to these particular ones.
This is why a responsible parent teaches their children not to talk to strangers, old men in trench coats sporting candy and invisible elves.


They are also known to beat wives they percieve to be lazy. How often does that have to happen before it gets old? Think about that. Your sweetheart, beaten with a stick, because she left dirty dishs overnight in the sink.
Now I want an elf too.


There. That is my argument gentlemen. It's a bluff because no sane responsible man would risk it.
No sane, responsible man would live in San Francisco either:p

Sticks
2008-Apr-03, 08:21 AM
Looks like his political career is over and now he plans to spill the beans on life in Van Rijn's back yard :surprised

steve000
2008-Apr-03, 10:57 AM
Ever had the feeling a joke got taken a tad too serious :silenced:

Chuck
2008-Apr-03, 02:43 PM
All right, I confess. I know that Van Rijn's elf is real because I sold it to him. If anyone else wants one just send me $100. I'll deliver it to your back yard when you're not looking and post here telling you that it's there. Then you too can claim to have an invisible elf in your back yard.

Don't have a back yard? At no extra charge I'll install an invisible back yard in another dimension at right angles to your house or apartment.

If you're not satisfied just return the elf in good condition for a full refund. The invisible back yard is yours to keep.

Neverfly
2008-Apr-03, 02:56 PM
All right, I confess. I know that Van Rijn's elf is real because I sold it to him. If anyone else wants one just send me $100. I'll deliver it to your back yard when you're not looking and post here telling you that it's there. Then you too can claim to have an invisible elf in your back yard.

Don't have a back yard? At no extra charge I'll install an invisible back yard in another dimension at right angles to your house or apartment.

If you're not satisfied just return the elf in good condition for a full refund. The invisible back yard is yours to keep.

I'll place an order.

Do you accept invisible 100 dollar bills?

Chuck
2008-Apr-03, 03:17 PM
I'll place an order.

Do you accept invisible 100 dollar bills?

It's not safe to send cash in the mail. Just post your credit card number here.

Neverfly
2008-Apr-03, 03:24 PM
No problem.

You Looked?!?!

See above- posted in invisible ink.

Gillianren
2008-Apr-03, 04:00 PM
Looks like his political career is over and now he plans to spill the beans on life in Van Rijn's back yard :surprised

You're talking to someone else's elf. Van Rijn's is female.

Swift
2008-Apr-03, 05:03 PM
You're talking to someone else's elf. Van Rijn's is female.
And you know what they say don't you... "To thy own Elf be true".

Neverfly
2008-Apr-03, 06:33 PM
And you know what they say don't you... "To thy own Elf be true".

Ok Swift- I think you've earned that bite now.

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-03, 08:39 PM
Ever had the feeling a joke got taken a tad too serious :silenced:

Well, I'm still getting a laugh out of the thread.

RalofTyr
2008-Apr-03, 10:28 PM
Actually, the is no invisible elf in his back yard, the native Wendigos have already tormented any none native spirit to live.

And the elf isn't running for state congress. To do that, you have to be a naturalized American citizen ship and there's not birth record for that elf...

LaurelHS
2008-Apr-03, 10:40 PM
Wendigos? Is Van Rijn's yard near a pet sematary or something?

Sticks
2008-Apr-04, 06:30 AM
And the elf isn't running for state congress.

Well not anymore

Ever since he was snapped by the paparazzi with his pixie lady friend checking out maternity clothes.

Now he is working on a literary project.

As the pixie if from over here, they are planning to emigrate to Wales, so they can have their baby on our National Elf service

John Mendenhall
2008-Apr-04, 02:33 PM
You're talking to someone else's elf. Van Rijn's is female.

Female? And being held in Van's backyard?

marsbug
2008-Apr-04, 02:56 PM
Van Rijn gets a female elf (I'll admit I'm thinking Liv Taylor in lord of the rings here) at the bottom of his garden? All I've got is drunken aggresive fairies holding illegal raves at the bottom of my garden, theres no justice in this world!

BetaDust
2008-Apr-04, 03:02 PM
So...

A female invisible elf that's running for state congress got snapped by the paparazzi with his pixie lady friend checking out maternity clothes.......

Okay!

Gillianren
2008-Apr-04, 04:12 PM
So...

A female invisible elf that's running for state congress got snapped by the paparazzi with his pixie lady friend checking out maternity clothes.......

Yup. That's how I know Sticks is talking to the wrong elf. (And I don't even have a backyard, with or without elf!)

Jeff Root
2008-Apr-04, 06:00 PM
I just have a bunny in my yard. The elf didn't have enough places to hide,
and didn't want to clean up bunny pellets all the time.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-04, 09:06 PM
Van Rijn gets a female elf (I'll admit I'm thinking Liv Taylor in lord of the rings here) at the bottom of his garden?


Funny you'd mention Liv Tyler. See this post:

http://www.bautforum.com/general-science/37109-van-rijns-invisible-elf-fun-meta-logic.html#post658170

Of course, as I pointed out at the time, I've never actually seen her wearing anything.

Neverfly
2008-Apr-04, 09:09 PM
Funny you'd mention Liv Tyler. (snip)
Of course, as I pointed out at the time, I've never actually seen her wearing anything.

LUCKY YOU

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-04, 09:24 PM
I'm not sure I see why . . . .

Neverfly
2008-Apr-04, 09:25 PM
I'm not sure I see why . . . .

It is not what you don't see that counts;)

BetaDust
2008-Apr-04, 09:51 PM
It is not what you don't see that counts

How do I count invisible elf's that I can't see?

Neverfly
2008-Apr-04, 09:53 PM
How do I count invisible elf's that I can't see?

By the only one that counts:D

Fledermaus
2008-Apr-05, 07:40 AM
Can you hear the invisible elf? and can the elf count? Because if you can not none of it counts!


I would cover your yard with about 300000 tonne of fine powder from a height of a quarter of a mile, and if there isnt a dead or dusty elf when the dust settles! then you dont have a invisible elf in the yard!!! And you wont have afterwards if he/she survives and I doubt the elf would stay around for any more persecution!!!!
If it did I would get a elf seeking missile and set it of from your back door and it will find that elf! you will know when its found it as you will hear it explode and you wont have to try to find the invisible blood!!!!
This post cracks me up!!! my sides hurt from laughing.

Neverfly
2008-Apr-05, 07:50 AM
Can you hear the invisible elf? and can the elf count? Because if you can not none of it counts!


I would cover your yard with about 300000 tonne of fine powder from a height of a quarter of a mile, and if there isnt a dead or dusty elf when the dust settles! then you dont have a invisible elf in the yard!!! And you wont have afterwards if he/she survives and I doubt the elf would stay around for any more persecution!!!!
If it did I would get a elf seeking missile and set it of from your back door and it will find that elf! you will know when its found it as you will hear it explode and you wont have to try to find the invisible blood!!!!
This post cracks me up!!! my sides hurt from laughing.

The invisible elf spied while the plans were being made and knew to be out of the yard at the time.

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-05, 08:00 AM
I've covered yard destruction a number of times. Here's an earlier post in the thread on it:

http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/72149-i-say-there-invisible-elf-my-backyard-how-do-you-prove-i-am-wrong.html#post1206253

Again: This is an invisible elf. You could never prove you could affect the elf and it wouldn't affect my statement even if you could. Besides, I don't particularly want my yard destroyed.

dirty_g
2008-Apr-05, 08:03 AM
yes but if we destroyed your yard he woulnd be in it. plus my net will catch him anyway!! mwore ha ha. i think a nice little nuke detonated there would sort out that elf.

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-05, 08:16 AM
yes but if we destroyed your yard he woulnd be in it. plus my net will catch him anyway!! mwore ha ha. i think a nice little nuke detonated there would sort out that elf.

But as I said in my previous post, and in the post I linked to, that doesn't affect my statement. The statement is not, "I say there will be an invisible elf in my yard after you nuke it."

BigDon has made one of the most interesting arguments I've seen, based on the nature of elves. However, BigDon would have to prove an elf would have to follow the rules he suggests.

Sticks
2008-Apr-05, 08:31 AM
It doesn't matter what you do to his yard Van Rijn's yard, his invisible elf arrived at Cardiff international airport last night with his pixie fiancť. She is taking him to see her folks in Rhossilli, on the Gower Peninsula sometime today.

As for the other elf, who they say is female, the elf says that is actually his deranged sister, which was why he left to serve in the marines and fought in Afghanistan in the first place. He also says you ought not to cross her as she can be quite vindictive.

astromark
2008-Apr-05, 10:16 AM
Do you people know anything about this subject? That drunken loutish bunch of elves ( Elf's ) at the bottom of your garden is and, was obviously a cash of Leprechauns on a OE from Ireland. Liv Taylor was an Elv which is not an Elf. Is your name Gandolf? I think we should call in the national guard and nuke the lot of them before they start to breed. I see army's of Elf's running a muck all over this forum. Oh dear me.

Quote;
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong? Reply to Thread ;end quote----

Well... I can not. I can at best only suggest that in all probability there is no such object as an Elf, let alone a invisible one.
Further more it saddens me that you are so selfish and will not share this wonderful treasure with us....

It is becoming obvious that what you think is in your back yard might be beyond our envelope of knowledge to be absolute. However I am beginning to become concerned about your ability to comprehend... Can I please have one of these little friends? I will be very gentle. My A/C number is............................

Gillianren
2008-Apr-05, 04:57 PM
As for the other elf, who they say is female, the elf says that is actually his deranged sister, which was why he left to serve in the marines and fought in Afghanistan in the first place. He also says you ought not to cross her as she can be quite vindictive.

Since Van Rijn knew about her before you did, it is quite obvious that you are talking to the impostor.

Tobin Dax
2008-Apr-05, 09:22 PM
(P.S. I've been wondering how long it would take for someone to point this out... looks like you're the weener.)

Yay!

Wait a minute. :think: :mad:

RalofTyr
2008-Apr-06, 05:25 AM
I say, Van Rijn's invisible elf was picked up in a post 9/11 FBI net and is currently in Guantanamo Bay awaiting a military trial for visa violations.

Now you prove me wrong.

candiprfumgrl
2008-Apr-06, 08:50 AM
He can't be....he's in MY backyard!

ATKINS
2008-Apr-06, 12:32 PM
He can't be....he's in MY backyard!

Can you PROVE that?

BigDon
2008-Apr-07, 02:20 AM
All I've got is drunken aggresive fairies holding illegal raves at the bottom of my garden, theres no justice in this world!


Oh man! Tell me about it! I live in San Francisco!

Neverfly
2008-Apr-07, 02:51 AM
Oh man! Tell me about it! I live in San Francisco!

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif

dirty_g
2008-Apr-14, 09:55 PM
But as I said in my previous post, and in the post I linked to, that doesn't affect my statement. The statement is not, "I say there will be an invisible elf in my yard after you nuke it."

BigDon has made one of the most interesting arguments I've seen, based on the nature of elves. However, BigDon would have to prove an elf would have to follow the rules he suggests.


sorry to res it again but wouldnt nuking it destroy the back yard making no back yard for him to be in?? thus then proving you wrong??

Van Rijn
2008-Apr-15, 04:00 AM
No. Read my signature. Note that "is" is not the same as "will be."

Jeff Root
2008-Apr-15, 05:49 AM
So that's what the meaning of "is" wasn't.

RalofTyr
2008-Apr-15, 05:58 AM
When someone tells me they have an invisible whatever in their back yard, I immediately think of ways to exit the conversation.

Sticks
2008-Apr-15, 07:33 AM
When someone tells me they have an invisible whatever in their back yard, I immediately think of ways to exit the conversation.

And so does my 6 foot invisible rabbit (Sorry Puka) :whistle:

Chuck
2008-Apr-15, 03:50 PM
When someone tells me they have an invisible whatever in their back yard, I immediately think of ways to exit the conversation.
That's a bad attitude. There's lots of money to be made when people believe in invisible things.

John Mendenhall
2008-Apr-15, 04:08 PM
That's a bad attitude. There's lots of money to be made when people believe in invisible things.

That's the most insightful statement yet in this thread.

RalofTyr
2008-Apr-16, 12:56 AM
That's a bad attitude. There's lots of money to be made when people believe in invisible things.


And how. Perhaps his elf could travel the freak show circuit. Two bits a gander.


Or he could appear on the next American Idol. Think his music career. And the foreign markets.

Tensor
2008-Apr-16, 06:41 PM
Or he could appear on the next American Idol. Think his music career. And the foreign markets.

Nah, it would never work. Paula wouldn't be able to comment on his outfit.

Kadava
2008-Apr-17, 02:40 AM
Nah, it would never work. Paula wouldn't be able to comment on his outfit.

Of course she could. It's made by the same bunch of tailors as made that spectacular suit for the emperor. Surely you've see it?

Ynesh44
2014-Jun-23, 04:58 AM
If your elf fell through the ground and wedged himself at centre of earth, it shows he's susceptible to gravity and hence has his own mass. Which means he WOULD be able to be trapped via a cage. Problem is, this argument would succumb to you claiming your elf is infinitesimally small; and we chasing that argument using an infinitesimally smaller cage. Thus the burden of proof is eventually on you to show the existence of your elf, or we would all be chasing butterflies and bumblebees all day long.

Essentially, I wouldn't never understand if you really have your elf, but here's where it gets interesting. You can't prove or debunk the existence of my elf - in my backyard either ;)

swampyankee
2014-Jun-23, 10:47 AM
An invisible elf in my backyard would explain why my dog searches for something every time she goes out.

Noclevername
2014-Jun-23, 12:04 PM
Welcome, Ynesh, but you should look at the date on this thread... it's last use was 2008.

Swift
2014-Jun-23, 01:16 PM
Welcome, Ynesh, but you should look at the date on this thread... it's last use was 2008.
I'm not sure if this thread is spoiled, but it certainly no longer belongs in Q&A; moved to OTB.

Maybe you folks can finish it off and we can recycle the container. ;)

Ynesh44
2014-Jun-25, 03:02 PM
but it's a timeless question and no one will ever be close to getting an answer in 2008 let alone in 2014! Anywho for administrative purposes I thank you for engaging with me on this! :D

Ynesh44
2014-Jun-25, 03:04 PM
Yes mr. moderator SIR.

JohnD
2014-Jun-25, 09:14 PM
We seem to be shifting towards what I thought the original user of this signature was saying, rather cleverly IMHO to get around Board rules. For "invisible elf'" read "god-like thing", or if you like, God.

Now that would be an interesting discussion, but one against Board rules, interminable and unresolvable. So I've probably caused the shutdown of this thread.

John

Well, it didn't get shut down! I was thinking that way, because this is exactly the same argument as "Russell's Teapot".
QV in Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Bertraand Russell offered his conjecture to show that if someone is making an unverifiable statement, it is not the task of their opponent to prove that they are wrong, but for the proposer to offer proof. Russell used this as part of his argument for atheism, hence the above.
So, over to you, Van Rijn!

JOhn

Van Rijn
2014-Jun-26, 07:52 PM
I mentioned this in another thread, but I just recently found a bit by Carl Sagan with something almost identical to my invisible elf in the backyard, but in his case it's a dragon in his garage! It's from The Demon Haunted World, which I haven't read. The excerpt reads just like one of these invisible elf threads. Conceivably I might have seen this before, but I don't think so, since I don't have any memory of it, and I didn't have a fully formed concept when I started mentioning an invisible elf. Ultimately, it's a fairly obvious idea, but the execution is very similar.

Anyway, you can read the excerpt here:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

Noclevername
2014-Jun-26, 08:21 PM
Get one or more of those paint bombs the put in stolen money bags, set it off in your yard, and the elf will no longer be invisible.

Chuck
2014-Jun-27, 11:08 AM
I say that I have proven to Van Rijn that there is no invisible elf in his back yard, that he agreed that the proof was valid, but then forgot about it due to being emotionally unable to accept it and, due to a head injury, I am now unable to reproduce it. How do you prove that I'm wrong?

DaveC426913
2014-Jun-27, 07:55 PM
Get one or more of those paint bombs the put in stolen money bags, set it off in your yard, and the elf will no longer be invisible.
And know we know whose backward the elf is in.
19673

profloater
2014-Jun-27, 08:36 PM
I tink I got a call from tat elf, maybe not, but e asked if I could send im an elf elp book. Does e ave an email? Is e even elf aware? Yes teres a key missing rigt in te middle of my keyboard since tat call. e's a tief too.