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Moonpuppy
2001-Oct-30, 12:28 AM
In Return of the Jedi, Endor is called a "moon," and we are never shown the planet it revolves around. Presumably, there isn't one. I think the novelization of the movie mentions that the planet was blown away by some unknown cataclysm. That can't be right, though, because any cataclysm disastrous enough to blow away a planet surely would send its moons careening out of orbit, right?

Donnie B.
2001-Oct-30, 01:08 AM
IIRC, the base was on "the moon of Endor", which could mean that Endor was the name of the planet the moon was orbiting. It could also be read as "the moon named Endor", I suppose.

Don't know anything about the Endorian cataclysm. Maybe it was a surface-sterilizing meteor impact... wipes the planet clean but leaves it otherwise intact.

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-30, 02:22 AM
I seem to recall in one of the novels that it is actually the fourth moon of Endor on which the movie scenes take place. I have never seen anything on Endor or the other moons!

Rob

Ktulhu
2001-Oct-30, 02:49 AM
Actually, it was the "Fourth moon of Yavin" in "A New Hope" I think you are thinking of. Endor was always refered to as the "Forest Moon of Endor", which seems to indicate that it is a moon of the planet Endor, I guess. But I could be wrong, they are my favorite movies, but I have only read the novels like twice each.

K



On 2001-10-29 21:22, Hale_Bopp wrote:
I seem to recall in one of the novels that it is actually the fourth moon of Endor on which the movie scenes take place. I have never seen anything on Endor or the other moons!

Rob


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ktulhu on 2001-10-29 21:50 ]</font>

James
2001-Oct-30, 11:51 AM
Endor was always refered to as the "Forest Moon of Endor"...

Ok, I have a question for anyone who's interested. In real life, how would a moon develop an atmosphere and get as complex or even more complex than Endor?

_____________________________________________
Calling evolution a religion is like calling baldness a hair color.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: James on 2001-10-30 06:52 ]</font>

StarMan
2001-Oct-30, 12:02 PM
Ok, I have a question for anyone who's interested. In real life, how would a moon develop an atmosphere and get as complex or even more complex than Endor?


Why should a moon be unable to develop an atmosphere? Titan has one.
Is there a major difference in tidal effects on a planet and on its moons?

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StarMan on 2001-10-30 07:03 ]</font>

James
2001-Oct-30, 12:16 PM
On 2001-10-30 07:02, StarMan wrote:


Ok, I have a question for anyone who's interested. In real life, how would a moon develop an atmosphere and get as complex or even more complex than Endor?


Why should a moon be unable to develop an atmosphere? Titan has one.


I asked how would a moon develop an atmostphere, not why.

GrapesOfWrath
2001-Oct-30, 12:27 PM
On 2001-10-30 07:16, James wrote:
I asked how would a moon develop an atmostphere, not why.

But, is that as opposed to how any planet would develop an atmosphere? Is that the question you're asking, moons develop an atmosphere differently than planets develop an atmosphere? It would seem to be the same way, though.

StarMan
2001-Oct-30, 12:31 PM
But, is that as opposed to how any planet would develop an atmosphere?


Thats what I ment, James.
Sorry if I sounded condescending.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-30, 02:31 PM
On 2001-10-29 21:49, Ktulhu wrote:
Actually, it was the "Fourth moon of Yavin" in "A New Hope" I think you are thinking of. Endor was always refered to as the "Forest Moon of Endor", which seems to indicate that it is a moon of the planet Endor, I guess. But I could be wrong, they are my favorite movies, but I have only read the novels like twice each.

K

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ktulhu on 2001-10-29 21:50 ]</font>


Think you are right on that one...of course, calling if the Forest Moon of Endor kind of implies there might be other moons of Endor doesn't it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif You know, the Desert Moon of Endor, the Ocean Moon of Endor, the Icy Moon of Endor, etc.

Rob

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-30, 02:31 PM
On 2001-10-29 21:49, Ktulhu wrote:
Actually, it was the "Fourth moon of Yavin" in "A New Hope" I think you are thinking of. Endor was always refered to as the "Forest Moon of Endor", which seems to indicate that it is a moon of the planet Endor, I guess. But I could be wrong, they are my favorite movies, but I have only read the novels like twice each.

K

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ktulhu on 2001-10-29 21:50 ]</font>


Think you are right on that one...of course, calling if the Forest Moon of Endor kind of implies there might be other moons of Endor doesn't it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif You know, the Desert Moon of Endor, the Ocean Moon of Endor, the Icy Moon of Endor, etc.

Rob

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-30, 02:32 PM
On 2001-10-29 21:49, Ktulhu wrote:
Actually, it was the "Fourth moon of Yavin" in "A New Hope" I think you are thinking of. Endor was always refered to as the "Forest Moon of Endor", which seems to indicate that it is a moon of the planet Endor, I guess. But I could be wrong, they are my favorite movies, but I have only read the novels like twice each.

K

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ktulhu on 2001-10-29 21:50 ]</font>


Think you are right on that one...of course, calling if the Forest Moon of Endor kind of implies there might be other moons of Endor doesn't it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif You know, the Desert Moon of Endor, the Ocean Moon of Endor, the Icy Moon of Endor, etc.

Rob

Ktulhu
2001-Oct-30, 02:51 PM
On 2001-10-30 09:32, Hale_Bopp wrote:


Think you are right on that one...of course, calling if the Forest Moon of Endor kind of implies there might be other moons of Endor doesn't it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif You know, the Desert Moon of Endor, the Ocean Moon of Endor, the Icy Moon of Endor, etc.

Rob


Very true. I still want to know what/where Endor is! (assuming the Forest Moon is a forest moon, even though everyone calls it Endor).

If the Wookiee lives on Endor you must aquit!

K

Sean
2001-Oct-30, 02:54 PM
http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/endor/bts.html

This is the official info on Endor there have been two different aproaches to the gas giant. in the movie and the book write up the gas giant was destroyed. however in the Ewoks cartoon and later books the planet still exists.

Moonpuppy
2001-Oct-30, 05:48 PM
On 2001-10-30 09:31, Hale_Bopp wrote:
[quote]


Think you are right on that one...of course, calling if the Forest Moon of Endor kind of implies there might be other moons of Endor doesn't it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif You know, the Desert Moon of Endor, the Ocean Moon of Endor, the Icy Moon of Endor, etc.

Rob



....the Shopping Mall Moon of Endor, the High-Rise Office Building Moon of Endor, the Casino and Theme-Based Amusement Park Moon of Endor....These need to be explored more fully in the upcoming Star Wars movies!

James
2001-Oct-31, 01:55 AM
On 2001-10-30 07:27, GrapesOfWrath wrote:


On 2001-10-30 07:16, James wrote:
I asked how would a moon develop an atmostphere, not why.

But, is that as opposed to how any planet would develop an atmosphere? Is that the question you're asking, moons develop an atmosphere differently than planets develop an atmosphere? It would seem to be the same way, though.


I was wondering if there was like an optimum distance for life to develop on a moon which had the right elements on it. Kinda like how there's an optimum distance out from the sun for the planets to be not too hot nor too cold. I was wondering if that would be aplicable to moons in the right orbits and right revolutions around it's planet.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 02:05 AM
I think both Yavin and Endor are gas giants that have little or no interest at all for us in the movie.

Remember when they want to aim at the Yavin 4 rebel base with the death star how they orbit a huge red planet, awaiting a line of sight for the superlaser.

At least that's what I think I saw, it seemed to me Yavin 4 was hidden behind some gas giant. Most probably Yavin itself (duh!).

Now that I think of it, I think when they say S-foils in X position we see the "green" Yavin 4 moon behind the red Yavin gas giant of sorts.

I would think it is the same with Endor, but the planet itself is not really relevant, and maybe it was removed for clarity. I'll look another time at return of the jedi if anyone wants me to.

Well, ta!

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-31, 02:55 AM
Yes, Yavin is supposed to be a gas giant and that is the planet you saw near the moon of Yavin.

What I want to know is, why didn't the Empire blow Yavin out of the way to get the moon? Doesn't their weapon work on gas giants? If the beam passed through the gas, would it be too dispersed to destroy the moon? If so, haven't they figured out adaptive optics yet? Can't they tune the beam to a wavelength that will pass through the gas giant?

Some mighty Empire, huh /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

They should have called the movie, "The Bad Luck and Rotten Timing of the Empire".

Rob

p.s. I actually am a huge fan and have read a lot of the novels...I was at an impressionable age when the first one came out!

Iain Lambert
2001-Oct-31, 08:00 AM
I see we've reached the old 'why not blow up Yavin' question, the close relative of 'why take so long to navigate round to the far side'. My guess is that the Superlaser takes some time to charge its capacitors or whatever up to unleash that kind of energy, so if they blew up Yavin they would have to sit there for hours/days watching all the Rebels run away before destroying the moon. Just a guess, but it does appear to make sense.

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 11:39 AM
Maybe the gas giant is too big. It seems to me they couldn't blow up everything in sight. They couldn't blow up a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser in the third movie ("That thing's operational!")

Besides, I think they wouldn't fire on Yavin, because as that other guy said (sorry for not remembering the name /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif) that would send the moon careening into space, and with the speed the deathstar moves (As fast as a loaded truck going up the everest or maybe as fast as that space shuttle carrying device) they would never be able to fire on them again.

Plus my guess is the Superlaser has an operational range. Don't ask me why but I think some elements in the movies make reference to that. As I said I can watch the movies again if you insist and report back to you.

Besides it's Vader's fault if they ever blew up that shield generator on Endor's moon.

Vader- Do they have a code clearance?
Piett- It's an older code, sir, but it checks out. I was about to clear them.
Piett- Shall I hold them?
Vader- No, leave them to me, I will deal with them myself.
Piett- As you wish, my Lord.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2001-10-31 06:47 ]</font>

Matherly
2001-Oct-31, 12:25 PM
On 2001-10-30 21:55, Hale_Bopp wrote:
What I want to know is, why didn't the Empire blow Yavin out of the way to get the moon?


According to the Starwars.com "Jedi Counsel" (A group of technitians who worked on the movies (including continuity editors) and answer fan submitted questions), the Death Stars primary weapons was ineffective against a gas giant (it only worked against 'rocky' planets).

Take that as you will

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 03:27 PM
Funky!

I'll take that explanation as it's "official"

Thank you Matherly!

Mnemonia
2001-Oct-31, 06:50 PM
On 2001-10-31 07:25, Matherly wrote:


On 2001-10-30 21:55, Hale_Bopp wrote:
What I want to know is, why didn't the Empire blow Yavin out of the way to get the moon?


According to the Starwars.com "Jedi Counsel" (A group of technitians who worked on the movies (including continuity editors) and answer fan submitted questions), the Death Stars primary weapons was ineffective against a gas giant (it only worked against 'rocky' planets).

Take that as you will


That makes sense if you wanted to destroy the entire gas giant by blowing up its rocky core, which presumeably was too big for the DS to handle. But why couldn't you just shoot though the atmosphere and hit the moon on the other side? They did not need line of sight to know where to shoot because they coudl extrapolate it since they already knew how much longer before the rebel base came into view. The question is, why the need for line of sight?! If the death star can turn a rocky planet into oatmeal it better be able to shoot though the much less dense atmosphere of the gas giant.

Matherly
2001-Oct-31, 07:06 PM
Because Lord Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin wanted to watch the rable base blow up real good.

<SIGH>

Mr. X
2001-Oct-31, 07:11 PM
Matherly is absolutely right. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Watching a planet blow up on a screen: 10$

Blowing a planet yourself on a computer screen: 60$

To be sitting on a giant laser and feel chunks of rocks and hunks of rebels fly at your face: Priceless

There you go! It's not that complicated! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Space Ghost of Arrakis
2001-Oct-31, 08:13 PM
Shoot, I want to hear an explaination of how the Endorian(?) ecosystem survived a 900 km diameter space station blowing up in orbit....

Hale_Bopp
2001-Oct-31, 11:16 PM
On 2001-10-31 15:13, Space Ghost of Arrakis wrote:
Shoot, I want to hear an explaination of how the Endorian(?) ecosystem survived a 900 km diameter space station blowing up in orbit....


Um...must have been a big orbit...remember, orbit does not mean it is close! Hmmm...bet if you were an obsessiuve compulsive, you could use a shot of the Forest Moon of Endor and the Deathstar to figure out some sort of scale. I don't recall the DeathStar being 900km, but I don't ever recall seeing a size stated at all (could be on a web site or something I haven't seen).

Don't think I will be that obsessive to find out!

Rob

Ben Benoy
2001-Nov-01, 04:57 AM
On 2001-10-31 18:16, Hale_Bopp wrote:

I don't recall the DeathStar being 900km, but I don't ever recall seeing a size stated at all (could be on a web site or something I haven't seen).



Of course we know how big it is, in SW:ANH (Star Wars: a New Hope for the unwashed masses), we are informed that the TIE fighters are headed "for that small moon!" So obviously, the Death Star is the size of a small moon. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif So the Bad Astronomer should be able to tell us how big a small moon is, and we'll be in business.

Which kind of begs the question, why wasn't the small moon close to anything in the long shot? The world may never know.

Seriously, though. We know that the Death Star was mistaken for a moon, and if we can assume that this means it is actually moon sized, then the minimum size of a metallic body before it clumps down into a sphere would be a lower bound for the size. That is, if good ole' Luke was right about it's size.

A Star Wars site that seems pretty obsessive says that the original was 120 km in diameter, subject to a continuity dispute and possibly slightly larger. The Return of the Jedi Death Star it says was 160 km but, and here I kid you not, this figure is followed by the following parenthetical note:

subject to continuity dispute; diameter probably between 800km and 960km

Yes, depending on continuity errors, these guys think that the thing might be 8 times larger, in 1 dimension. So they may be wrong by a factor of 512 on the volume. My God, it's full of holes... The Link (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/dsrpg.html)

But I think that the above is just a bit of a fluke, since this, very obsessive site (Ahh... Obsession. For men... Or boys... Or geeks... Yeah, probably geeks. (http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/deathstarii/index.html)), says that the second death star was 160 km, without a gigantic fudge factor. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Ben Benoy

Matherly
2001-Nov-01, 12:52 PM
On 2001-10-31 23:57, Ben Benoy wrote:

Which kind of begs the question, why wasn't the small moon close to anything in the long shot? The world may never know.


Point one: In A New Hope The Death Star was close to something... the debris field left when Alderaan blowed up real good.

Point Two: The Death Star didn't have to be close to anything. It was quite capable of moving on its own- including making hyperspace jumps. How else could it go from the Alderaan system to the Yavin system... if it had been at subluminal speeds the movie would have been a **** of a lot longer.

{Ye gods, I can't believe how geeky I am being}

Ben Benoy
2001-Nov-01, 10:36 PM
On 2001-11-01 07:52, Matherly wrote:

Point one: In A New Hope The Death Star was close to something... the debris field left when Alderaan blowed up real good.

Point Two: The Death Star didn't have to be close to anything.

{Ye gods, I can't believe how geeky I am being}



Snippy snippy on the quote, but yes, you are being geeky. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Re points 1 and 2, if it's a small moon, it must be a moon of something. But generally one does not refer to moons of groups of asteroids.

So there, nyuck nyuck nyuck...

Look, it's my 50th post. Bad Apprenticeship, here I come.

Ben Benoy

<font color="blue">
Whiney Protagonist: I declare that the largest moon of the asteroid belt be named after me, Johnny Stargazer.

Astronomer: That's Ceres you twit. Now go find your father. Muahahaha!
</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ben Benoy on 2001-11-01 17:37 ]</font>

James
2001-Nov-02, 11:59 AM
Look, it's my 50th post. Bad Apprenticeship, here I come.

One more post, Ben. Then Appreticeship. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Matherly
2001-Nov-02, 01:13 PM
On 2001-11-01 17:36, Ben Benoy wrote:
Re points 1 and 2, if it's a small moon, it must be a moon of something. But generally one does not refer to moons of groups of asteroids.


{sigh} I just... can't... stop... replying.

First, as said before, the Death Star was very near the "Rubble-Field-Formerly-Known-as-the-Planet-Alderaan".

Point Two: You might not refer to a relativly small lump of metal floating in space as a moon, I might not refer to a relativly small lump of metal floating in space, but Luke did not have the benifit of our years of training in lump analysis. He was a water farmer for Pete's sake!!! He had never been off world before, he had never been through hyperspace before, and he had never been repetidly shot up by a training droid before. He was a little giddy, cut the kid some slack (Y'notice how the seasoned travellers don't refer to it as a moon)

{Must stop... becoming Comic Book Guy... must not eat a hundred tacos...}

Mr. X
2001-Nov-02, 02:00 PM
The time the comic book guy went to Dr Nick Riviera's was because he ate chesseburgers:

"Oooh, loneliness and cheeseburgers are a dangerous mix!"

And he also ate 100 tacos for 100$! What a great guy!

He has a masters degree in Folklore and Mythology!

Iain Lambert
2001-Nov-02, 02:22 PM
The continuity dispute makes sense really. We get given an estimate for the size of the first Death Star, and are told the second one is nearly twice as large. So there is your 160km.

On the other hand, we can get an estimate of the size of the Super Star Destroyer and then see how small it looks in comparison to the Death Star its crashing into, which is where you get a much bigger number.

Anyway, if memory serves, there is a whole thing out there in cyberspace dealing with the ecological catastrophe that blowing up something so large in geostationary orbit.

We know its geostationary, as
1) we see it being animated that way in the briefing room, and
2) the shield generator is beaming up the force shield all the time, which it couldn't do if the thing was on the wrong side of the moon at that point of the orbit.

do I get my geek award now?

Ben Benoy
2001-Nov-02, 08:49 PM
On 2001-11-02 08:13, Matherly wrote:

{sigh} I just... can't... stop... replying.

First, as said before, the Death Star was very near the "Rubble-Field-Formerly-Known-as-the-Planet-Alderaan".

Point Two: You might not refer to a relativly small lump of metal floating in space as a moon,

--- Cut! ---

He was a little giddy, cut the kid some slack (Y'notice how the seasoned travellers don't refer to it as a moon)



Ok, this is getting a little philosophical. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif What kind of conditions govern moonhood? I asked a similar question here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=80&forum=2&12) (the extra solar planet thread) with regard both to moons and planets. If it's not orbiting something, is it a moon? How do you define moon? I always thought that a moon was a satellite of a planet. (No, not communications satellites, silly. The kind that don't go beep beep) If there's no planet, no moon.

As far as what the other space travelers say, Obiwan doesn't say "That's no moon, you twit, it has no primary." He says, that's no moon, it's a space station. Han seems to think it might also be a moon, because he says it's too big to be a space station. Nothing about it not being a moon because it doesn't orbit anything. Also, none of them reject Luke's analysis right away.

At least, that's how I remember it. Haven't watched it in a while, though. Guess it's time to put on my geek pants and pop in the video, huh?

Ben Benoy

Matherly
2001-Nov-02, 09:23 PM
I dunno.

Just because Han and Obiwan don't take a moment to define what 'moon' means does not mean they don't know.

Not to mention the fact that they are just a bit shaken. I mean, the planet they were travelling to isn't there, and by conincidence there just happens to be a big debris field where they expected to find it (not to mention a great disturbance in the Force is never a good sign). I think they get to think a moment before they decide they are screwed.

Basically, what I'm saying is that little throw away line by a farm boy can't be taken as meaning the authors of the movie are pervayors of Bad Astronomy.

David Hall
2001-Nov-03, 08:19 AM
It's quite possible they just assumed the Death Star was a moon of Alderaan. You know, the planet that just got blowed up real good. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Han probably didn't correct Luke because he knew the TIE fighter had to have come from either a ship or a ground base. He probably assumed it was a moon or planetoid also, since the TIE was heading for it and it obviously wasn't a ship.

So of course they didn't realize the truth until too late.

Mr. X
2001-Nov-03, 03:31 PM
Shoot, I want to hear an explaination of how the Endorian(?) ecosystem survived a 900 km diameter space station blowing up in orbit....

Oh really? Maybe we should strap you in a chair for three hours looking at EPISODE 7: THE EWOK EVACUATION. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Silmatan
2001-Nov-09, 07:34 AM
About the original post topic; mayhaps it Endor was in it's "full moon" phase, which would explain why we don't see it during the day. And maybe during the night it's so big that it always eclispes the system's sun. And if the forset moon was the farthest out, the other moons would be near the planet, so we wouldn't see them either. Maybe this might possibly work.

Shadowhawk
2001-Nov-09, 08:02 PM
Ah, my first post and it'll just prove how big a geek I am.

The energy used to shatter Alderaan (~1e38j) wouldn't have -any- trouble blowing up a gas giant's core (the superlaser used a million times more energy than necessary to break a planet up permenantly). We can only assume a couple things:
1) Tarkin's arrogance shone through and he wanted to blow Yavin IV up directly
2) The superlaser would be diffracted by Yavin's atmosphere, messing up the targeting or reducing effectiveness.

The 2nd Death Star was in excess of 800 kilometers in diameter--the scale of the DS against Endor in the tactical briefing, the scale of the DS vs the Executor, and the model-maker's idea of the DS size ("500 miles") all indicate such size.

Endor could not possibly have survived the destruction of the Death Star:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html

The 'Forest Moon of Endor' is an oddity in the SW universe. One survey, it was a typical moon around a gas giant. Next survey, the gas giant was gone. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

And to solidify proof that I'm a geek, I'm a regular on alt.startrek.vs.starwars and spacebattles.com, a newsgroup and website (respectively) dedicated to pitting sci-fi universes against each other (suspension of disbelief is a must).

Lisa
2001-Nov-09, 08:28 PM
If you mean "geek" as in "rabid science fiction fan", welcome to the club. A thread on the old board concerned what sci-fi everyone has read. (Answer: all of it)
We just try not to do it in public.
Lisa

Mr. X
2001-Nov-10, 07:33 PM
Rabid? Uh, maybe not...

Maybe that town name of yours is getting to to you. Rabid city, SD /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Phil S
2001-Nov-13, 05:55 PM
Back to the "moon" terminology, in "star wars" they are chasing a tie fighter near the "death star", and Luke says "It's heading for that small moon!"

Ben has it right, he responds "That's no moon!" Of course it's not a star either.