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jokergirl
2008-Apr-25, 10:49 AM
Please, can anyone tell me why everyone is raving over how good the new Battlestar Galactica series is? With examples?

The premise is still pretty good (I started watching it because I liked the old series), there are some spiffy female characters (aside from the way too clichéd Starbuck one) but apart from that I found it pretty lacking both from the cinematic and the science perspective.
And why is every female character shown to have interest in sex automatically evil or a Cylon?

Am I missing something? Does it get better later on (Spoiler away if that is the case)?

;)

ineluki
2008-Apr-25, 12:38 PM
People like BSG because
- it takes it premise serious (there are only 50K survivors, this isn't the funny adventure the old series made of it)
- it takes it characters serious (including all their flaws)
- apart from FTL, Gravity and the Cylons their technology is somewhat realistic

But if you don't like the cinematic and science now, you will not like it in the future.
Perhaps this is just not the right series for you.

hewhocaves
2008-Apr-25, 12:59 PM
Im more interested in the Cylons at this point than the fleet. The humans could get wiped out and it really wouldn't phase me at all. I think that the series is a bit too heavy in the melodrama and not enough in the actual drama. Its more like a space soap opera than a space opera. And its creeping up on that "latter X-Files" feeling of being hit over the head repeated with the *big secret* until blunt trauma occurs.

But the physics isn't horrible for the series, so its got that going for it.

Jason
2008-Apr-25, 03:47 PM
I like it for the following reasons:

1. Survivor for real. Unlike the original series, the premise of the survivors of a destroyed civilization is taken seriously. Personnel and resources are limited, harsh measures have had to be taken to save what could be saved, and the series as a whole has the feeling of a civilization being slowly grinded down by the situation as more and more characters die. There have been episodes which have addressed shortages (water, fuel, medical supplies, and food), whether abortion can be allowed in a population that is arleady too low, whether money has any real value, the possibility of an emerging aristocracy or military dictatorship from a once-democratic people, and the possible emergence of a caste system. There is a serious question of whether the human race will survive to reach Earth.

2. Nobody's perfect. The original series had boy scout Apollo and heart of gold Han Solo clone Starbuck. Adama was the saintly Moses/father figure, and Tigh was a loyal sidekick to Adama. Baltar was an undiluted cartoon villain, doing nastiness for the sake of being nasty.
In the new series Apollo is still a straight-shooter, but he has a disfunctional relationship with his dad, a love/hate relationship with Starbuck, and is now turning antagonistic to the President as well.
Starbuck is a hot pilot but her "tough as nails" personality is entirely a front to protect herself, and is wracked with self-doubt and self-destructive tendencies. She can be counted on to make the absolute worst choice for herself in just about any situation but is sympathetic to the audience because of her vulnerability.
Adama is a father figure and generally a wise leader, but he has a temper that sometimes gets the better of him, and sometimes refuses to compromise when he should. He makes mistakes and is not ashamed to admit them.
Tigh has a serious drinking problem, and a bone-deep hatred for the Cylons. He often acts in stupid ways, but he is also able to make hard decisions and take the flack that cannot be directed at Adama.
Baltar is a survivor above all else. Cowardly and selfish, but not really evil so much as amoral. He may also be insane.
In other words, every character is well-rounded and has interesting problems. That makes for good drama.

3. Cinima Veritae. The series has a documentary feel to it. It is almost as if a camera crew were following around the series regulars and filming what they are doing (including the effects shots). It adds a sense of realism to the proceedings, and grit. Nearly everything is played absolutely straight. Technology is not extravagent and there are no technobabble solutions. And no aliens, although there is a mystical element.

4. Surprise value. The series does often surprise me, which is rare on TV these days. Regular characters who you may have become attached to die quite often. It does not follow a formula, and there is no reset button.

5. Good Acting. They have a good ensamble here with some great acting chops. One or two of the players may be a little weak from time to time, but several of them are very, very good.

Taken all together it's an excellent dark, gritty show with realisticly human (in other words, fallible) characters. That's something that is very seldom done with sci-fi, so it might be jarring to someone who grew up on Star Trek.

Disinfo Agent
2008-Apr-25, 04:19 PM
And why is every female character shown to have interest in sex automatically evil or a Cylon?The same reason why every time a couple decides to make out in a horror film, a monster immediately shows up and kills one of them. ;)

Jason
2008-Apr-25, 04:28 PM
Starbuck has an interest in sex, and she's not evil or a Cylon (probably).
Cally had a kid with the chief and she wasn't evil or a Cylon.
Kat, Dee, Seelix, there are actually quite a few minor female characters that are (or were) not evil, not Cylons, and not frigid.

i only ponder
2008-May-02, 12:11 PM
the show's biggest libility is its name. it immediately puts people off because it sounds very sci-fi geeky or because it reminds them of the camp original.
its difficult to describe in short, but it is fracking amazing. there's no better way to describe it.

Disinfo Agent
2008-May-02, 12:35 PM
its difficult to describe in short, but it is fracking amazing. there's no better way to describe it.Wow, that sounds campy! :p

Jason
2008-May-02, 02:54 PM
And this season the show has also been painted pitch black. It's dark, dark, dark.
Roslin is dying (probably for real this time), Apollo became a politician, Tyrol is crazed with grief, Tigh is crazed with grief, Tory is turning evil, Baltar is becoming the new Charles Manson, and Starbuck is just plain crazy. Even the Cylons are fighting each other now. It looks like things are going to get worse before they get better.

i only ponder
2008-May-02, 08:43 PM
Wow, that sounds campy! :p

sorry, that should be frakking. :p

i only ponder
2008-May-02, 08:47 PM
And this season the show has also been painted pitch black. It's dark, dark, dark.
Roslin is dying (probably for real this time), Apollo became a politician, Tyrol is crazed with grief, Tigh is crazed with grief, Tory is turning evil, Baltar is becoming the new Charles Manson, and Starbuck is just plain crazy. Even the Cylons are fighting each other now. It looks like things are going to get worse before they get better.

ack! i know its great. i'm the only person i know who watches it, and i don't want to read any spoilers, so i have to keep it all to myself. i wish i knew someone who watched it so i could have a good gossip. much more interesting than who-kissed-who on hollyoaks :rolleyes: of course nobody will start watching it because they won't know what the hell is going on, and because the name puts them off. its like asking someone to watch star trek...[end of rant]
:cry:

Launch window
2008-May-05, 08:06 AM
Does it get better later on (Spoiler away if that is the case)?

;)

No I believe the new Battlestar show actually gets worse as it moves on, Star Trek TNG had a very clunky start and even though I still haven't seen every TNG episode I know its later seasons were massively entertaining and had some of the best acting in a scifi show ( LeVar Burton and Patrick Stewart are some amazing actors IMO). Babylon-5 is another example of a series with a very jittery start but its a story arc based show and each episode adds to the last making B-5 the ion drive of science fiction, ok it kind of "jumpstheshark" when actress Claudia Christian left but it is still one of the best scifi shows out there. Whedon's Firefly is an example of near perfection that experienced cancellation way too early.

The thing about Battlestar like a fantastic breed of horse it came bolting out of the starting gates, a good story and great actors. However the horse tired quickly, the show had no endurance, no staying power, today the phrase "these cylons have a plan" has now been deleted from the season 4 credits. Perhaps the writers don't have much of a plan either. Battlestar was a great show, many times better than the old Glen Larson vision but the new show certainly was not perfect. I already was seeing a few cracks in its early great season, Starbuck having sex with Baltar was merely drama for the sake of drama, getting the Cylons pregnant et cetera. The third season I felt was a waste of my time. At one time I thought giving Battlestar a face lift was a really innovative and original idea. However since then I've checked online to see there were many players at this facelift game like Richard Hatch actor in the original and author of comic books and there was Bryan Singer, the director who gave us movies like Usual Suspects.
http://www.battlestargalactica.com/hatchvision.htm
Many of them were going to sell "Second Comings" to the studios, giving the show a darker look. I guess producers like David Eick just happened to be able to sell themselves to the studio that much better.

Jason
2008-May-05, 02:54 PM
Battlestar Galactica has been willing to take some real risks in taking the story where the creators wanted to go with it, and it has obviously rubbed some people the wrong way.
This is the last season, so I would advise any critic to wait to the end and judge the show in its entirety.

i only ponder
2008-May-06, 12:10 AM
You can't please everyone. There's always going to be people who don't like this or that.
I can't think of any tv show that is anything like BSG. It is the kind of show that takes risks, that goes in directions you don't expect. Anyone can get bumped off at any time, you don't know what's just around the corner. That is the kind of show that holds your attention, and that, to me, is the mark of a good show.

Van Rijn
2008-May-06, 07:59 AM
In my opinion the updated BSG was very interesting when it started, but went downhill, to the point that last season I tended to fall asleep on an episode if I tried to watch it. I gave it a chance this season though, and it seems to me to be somewhat improved. I think they are sticking closer to story arcs, rather than just doing a story of the week.

Trantor
2008-May-06, 01:38 PM
I too was turned off by the last half of season 2 and most of season 3. In my opinion, season 4 is an improvement. The episodes so far aren't featuring love triangles, who is sleeping with who, and who's romantic relationships are falling. It is possible to have good drama without all the soap opera elements, and this season, it looks like RDM is more focused on finishing BSG, rather than giving us soapy filler episodes. Let's hope the show continues this way and ends strong.

i only ponder
2008-May-06, 03:31 PM
what really? you didn't like the whole occupation/Iraq war allegory?

jokergirl
2008-May-07, 12:16 PM
You can't please everyone. There's always going to be people who don't like this or that.
I can't think of any tv show that is anything like BSG. It is the kind of show that takes risks, that goes in directions you don't expect. Anyone can get bumped off at any time, you don't know what's just around the corner. That is the kind of show that holds your attention, and that, to me, is the mark of a good show.


Funny, this is exactly the reason why I wasn't happy with it to begin with.

The original BSG was fun in a space opera, don't-take-it-too-seriously way. The new one is neither fish nor flesh - it is not simple eye candy, but in my opinion it does not take enough risks at all.
The screenplay from the first episodes strikes me as way too sanitized - even though it has loaded sexual content, there is a certain amount of shamefulness about it that just rubs me the wrong way. Mysteries are revealed way too early or made too obvious. I would have liked to spend a few episodes wondering whether Cylon Lady #1 was real or just in the actor's head. And the first Cylon replacements are revealed to the viewers early but then the characters spend a lot of time finding out, making the show drag on. The drama is good and believable, but sometimes way overplayed.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. I hope I didn't infuriate anyone too much with this - it was not my intention to come over as a curmudgeon, but I was seriously interested in whether or not I should hold out and give the show another chance. Well, tastes differ, luckily!
But I guess I'll stick to B5 and Firefly reruns for now... :(

Jason
2008-May-07, 03:12 PM
The screenplay from the first episodes strikes me as way too sanitized - even though it has loaded sexual content, there is a certain amount of shamefulness about it that just rubs me the wrong way.I have no idea what you're talking about here. What shamefulness?


Mysteries are revealed way too early or made too obvious. I would have liked to spend a few episodes wondering whether Cylon Lady #1 was real or just in the actor's head.Huh? We're STILL wondering if Six is just in Baltar's head or not.


And the first Cylon replacements are revealed to the viewers early but then the characters spend a lot of time finding out, making the show drag on.I disagree. Six, Leoban, and Dorval were all discovered to be Cylons during the mini-series. D'Anna, Simon, and Cavil were each in only one episode before they were discovered by the Colonials to be Cylons.
Boomer had the longest time between her reveal to the audience as a Cylon and the Colonials finding out, and she was discovered at the end of the first season - 13 episodes total.
Aside from Boomer, once the audience knows someone is a Cylon it doesn't take long for the Colonials to find out too.


But I guess I'll stick to B5 and Firefly reruns for now... :(Any reason you can't watch both? B5 and Firefly will still be in reruns/on DVD once BSG is over.

Admittedly it may not be to everyone's tastes, but that's not because of faults in the program, but differing tastes.

i only ponder
2008-May-07, 04:33 PM
.
.
Anyway, thanks for your comments. I hope I didn't infuriate anyone too much with this - it was not my intention to come over as a curmudgeon, but I was seriously interested in whether or not I should hold out and give the show another chance. Well, tastes differ, luckily!
But I guess I'll stick to B5 and Firefly reruns for now... :(

Well, ultimately it's all subjective.
Some people will like it, some people won't. It's impossible to make a tv show that everyone will love.

Personally, I don't know what the big deal is with Heroes. It's good, but it's not that good. Lots of people I know watch it even though they don't watch any sci-fi at all. I think BSG is much better, and they too would like it if they watched it. The problem with BSG is that it's name is it's biggest liability!

zerocold
2008-May-07, 05:08 PM
However the horse tired quickly, the show had no endurance

agree

Some of the factors that are killing the serie are (IMO)....

1-The cylons were created by the humans killing any further story development (in the original serie cylons were made by other civilization) -now if the cylons were made to kill some aliens...-

2-Cylons killed all humanity......at least they would have kept a human slave planet... (making a political sub-plot, calling the refugees as rebelds)

3-Really there arent humans on the Cylon side ...i mean, come one , with it tech and knowledge, someone would switch bands

The saviors of ST, were THE BORG!, accept that, this Cylon vs Human is getting boring...the serie needs a new specie (but linked with the story, since BSG ans ST are quite different)

Jason
2008-May-07, 05:46 PM
Personally, I don't know what the big deal is with Heroes. It's good, but it's not that good. Lots of people I know watch it even though they don't watch any sci-fi at all. I think BSG is much better, and they too would like it if they watched it. The problem with BSG is that it's name is it's biggest liability!
I would have to agree that Heroes is a bit over-rated.

Jason
2008-May-07, 05:52 PM
1-The cylons were created by the humans killing any further story development (in the original serie cylons were made by other civilization) -now if the cylons were made to kill some aliens...-So you have to have aliens or your show is boring?
I guess you didn't like Firefly either then.


2-Cylons killed all humanity......at least they would have kept a human slave planet... (making a political sub-plot, calling the refugees as rebelds)When you are on a religious crusade to take the place of your creators, convinced that it is God's will that they all die, there is no reason to spare any of them.
Afterwards the Cylons changed their mind about whether it was a good idea to exterminate humans after all and tried to live in peace with them on New Caprica. It didn't work out.


3-Really there arent humans on the Cylon side ...i mean, come one , with it tech and knowledge, someone would switch bandsBaltar was on their side, for a while. There was a movement in the fleet for talking, possibly even surrenduring to the Cylons - it seems Gina blew most of them up along with Could 9. The Cylons have killed or experimented on most other humans they've taken prisoner. Would you want to join their side?
This season it looks like we are moving towards having more humans ally with more Cylons.

zerocold
2008-May-07, 06:21 PM
Isnt to have or not aliens..is about a new branch in the story, i dont think it can be done with out an alien specie, because both side plots are wasted...is so wasted that the "surprise" remaining is "who is the next cylon?"....., new aliens arround would been as the old cylon/Human target, that came back for revenge :D, ok ...ermm, or something like that :D

Firefly didnt last enough to know if it would have become boring.....

Baltar was on their side, for a while. There was a movement in the fleet for talking

Baltar doesnt count, hes mad or cylon, or with a chip implanted or whatever, the original Baltar was a leader that wanted a pacific coexistence between both sides :D, really the serie is lacking for that, a human leader pro-cylon, a young pilot (new character) would be the best choice -IMO-

Another thing which IMO the original serie was better, was how the Cylons were orginazed, now there arent cylon leaders, you cant see an overmind or something like that, in the original serie there were an emperor, counsuls, etc, now all that you can see are Cylons soldiers and their spys (human Cys)

Jason
2008-May-07, 06:56 PM
Isnt to have or not aliens..is about a new branch in the story, i dont think it can be done with out an alien specie, because both side plots are wasted...is so wasted that the "surprise" remaining is "who is the next cylon?"....., new aliens arround would been as the old cylon/Human target, that came back for revenge :D, ok ...ermm, or something like that :DI understood some of that. I think.
Since BSG has not repeated itself yet I don't see the need for new elements to be introduced until they've exhausted the old.
Regardless, I think they will introduce new elements when they reach Earth and when we find out who is really behind Starbuck's return.


Baltar doesnt count, hes mad or cylon, or with a chip implanted or whatever, the original Baltar was a leader that wanted a pacific coexistence between both sides :D, really the serie is lacking for that, a human leader pro-cylon, a young pilot (new character) would be the best choice -IMO-The original Baltar was a cartoon villain. He had no more depth than cardboard, and he only wanted pacific coexistence if he could rule humanity personally.

zerocold
2008-May-07, 07:06 PM
Well the original BSG was a cartooned serie, yes everybody knows that...but in some things it was better structured

Really, the serie is stucked...as i said before, there is nothing new to watch...the only thing that remains to know is who is the next Cy...and the serie will die....tsss...bring us back some aliens :D

Extravoice
2008-May-07, 07:33 PM
Personally, I'm less interested in who the last Cylon is than I am in the Cylon civil war.

Jason
2008-May-07, 07:40 PM
Things to watch for in the remaining season:

1. Who is the last Cylon?

2. All sorts of questions about the four who have been revealed:
Why do the other Cylons not know who they are?
When and by whom were they created? Do they predate the other humanoid Cylons? Was Tigh really living with the Colonials for the last forty years or more?
Why didn't they know who they were?
Why did they awaken at this particular time?
Will the Colonials discover who they are? What will be their reaction if they do discover this?
Will Tyrol discover that Tory killed his wife? And what will his reaction be if he does?
What is the connection between the final four and Earth (there must be one, since they were triggered by a song we know on Earth)?
Will they recover memories that answer these questions?

3. What happened to Starbuck? Is she really the same person or a copy (as her ship appears to be)? Who took her away and returned her? Did she really see Earth? Will she really destroy the human race, as predicted by the hybrid, or does she have another role? Will she discover that Anders is a Cylon? Will she carry out her threat to kill him if she does?

4. What is Head Six? Is she really an angel, as she told Baltar, or is there some other explanation? Is she related to the Baltar that Caprica Six sees in her head (and Baltar has seen once himself)? Is she related to the Not-Leoban that Starbuck met? What is her real agenda? Does she want to help the Cylons or the Colonials or both or neither?

5. Will Roslin die of her cancer, or will she live long enough to reach Earth?

6. Why is Hera, the first human/Cylon fusion, significant? What role will she have to play? Is Nicky, the second human/Cylon fusion also significant?

7. Will the Cylons descend into full-scale Civil War, massacring entire models? Will the centurions and raiders rebel against their more humanoid masters, as Cavil fears? Will their society destroy itself in war, or rejoin the Colonials?

8. Will the Colonials actually reach Earth? What will they find if they do? Us? The remains of our civilization? An empty planet waiting for them to colonize it? A technologically-advanced 13th tribe?

9. How far will Lee go in opposing Roslin? Will Zarek use him to gain the presidency for himself again? Will Lee become president?

10. Will Baltar's new religion prove dangerous for the fleet and humanity as a whole? Will he become the new prophet who converted the Colonials to monotheism? Or is he just a tool of Head Six and powers unknown? Is his conversion genuine or lasting?

See. There is a lot more than just "who is the last Cylon" to watch for. And keep in mind that this is the final act - things should be starting to wrap up at this point, not expanding for future plots.

Trantor
2008-May-07, 07:44 PM
One of the story arcs from the original series that I would have liked in the new series, would have been a "Terra" storyline. Basically, it would have had the fleet of escaping Colonials running into an earlier and unknown human migration from Earth. It could have added another major power without the introduction of aliens. How this new player would have interacted with the Colonials and the Cylons would have been interesting. And no, it wouldn't need to feature those two cheezy robots - Hector and Vector!

Anyway, it's a bit too late for that now; but it does seem that the new BSG may feature some of the elements from the original series "War of the Gods" episode.

zerocold
2008-May-07, 07:55 PM
yeah, well , then is just me :P, but im getting tired of that Cy, Cy, Cy, Cy, thing, the environment is also boring, too grey/black, we dont see how is inside of a Cy ship (if there is an inside...), even if there is a civil war , will be baut Cy, and the grey/black background...im hopeless :P

Still think the serie needs a 3th side, new ships, new species, new furnish :D..im talking as "the next door guy"...not as a BSG fan

Jason no matter how many sub-plots u have, if you cant have a fresh main plot

Jason
2008-May-07, 08:08 PM
Well, when we get to the point that your main complaint about the show is the art decoration, I think the conversation is over.

zerocold
2008-May-07, 08:15 PM
Isnt that... it is just getting ...boring, you cant avoid it,the story is one-sided, and the other side cant have a more 1rst personalized story, so you see the same art again and again , isnt baut the art then

Jason
2008-May-07, 08:16 PM
And no, it wouldn't need to feature those two cheezy robots - Hector and Vector!Fun fact: Vector was played by Ray Bolger - the Scarecrow from the The Wizard of Oz.

Trantor
2008-May-08, 02:01 PM
Fun fact: Vector was played by Ray Bolger - the Scarecrow from the The Wizard of Oz.

Cool. I didn't know that, but now that I think about it, Vector's voice always did seem strangely familiar. Having watched The Wizard of Oz a bunch of times, I now know why.

I actually liked Hector and Vector. Yes, they were cheesy, but they were mostly there for laughs anyway. A couple of years ago, I rented all of the original series episodes in order, and watched them with my kids. My two girls(7 and 9 years old), absolutely loved Hector and Vector. They laughed at all their silly antics. That's one of the nice things about the original series - it was family friendly. Even the original Baltar was the kind of baddie that kids can understand; similar to most cartoon baddies, just plain bad, no shades of grey there. Star Wars and Dr. Who use a similar formula, that appeals to both kids and adults.

I watch Dr. Who with my kids and they love it. While I do enjoy the new BSG, it is too dark and violent for kids.

Jason
2008-May-08, 05:16 PM
True - the new BSG is not for kids.

Launch window
2008-May-18, 02:49 PM
The problem I have with the series : making "Tigh a Cylon "

http://www.jumptheshark.com/topic/Battlestar-Galactica-2004/Battlestar-Galactica-2004-General-Comments/21694



The problem with BSG is that it's name is it's biggest liability!

It uses the same planets (Caprica, Sagitarius) has the same ships as the old 70s show (Pegasus, Battlestar) same character names (Adama, Starbuck, Apollo....) so what else are you going to call the series ?

Jason
2008-May-18, 09:50 PM
I think making Tigh a Cylon was a bold move, and that it seems to be paying off.

Certassar
2008-May-19, 04:30 PM
Colonel T_gh (TCTTI) is my favourite character (among many great characters) in the entire show. He is so much not the Commander Riker type, and is both flawed and perfect in so many ways. And Michael Hogan is brilliant in this role. Making T_gh (TCTTI) a cylon just adds another interesting layer - of all the characters, he was probably the one who hated the cylons the most. RDM just pushed him further and further towards the edge through the show, and then gave him a big push.

Making Anders a cylon was a more dubious move, IMO, as he is by far the weakest character of the Dylan 4. But then again, it had to be someone.

Certassar
2008-May-19, 04:36 PM
Random BSG trivia:
In the Danish subtitles to the BSG pilot episode, T_gh (TCTTI) is persistently misspelled "Thigh". ;-)

Jason
2008-May-19, 04:38 PM
I dunno, at least Anders had something going on before he was a Cylon. Tory was almost an extra by comparison.

publius
2008-May-19, 04:43 PM
Random BSG trivia:
In the Danish subtitles to the BSG pilot episode, T_gh (TCTTI) is persistently misspelled "Thigh". ;-)

Well considering Ellen and certainly CapSix's assests, Col. "Thigh" might not be too far off the mark. :)


-Richard

publius
2008-May-20, 04:10 AM
And Michael Hogan is brilliant in this role.


Yes indeed. If this wasn't sci-fi, he'd win an Emmy for it. He started out appearing as an incompetent, mean drunk type (and Ellen was something else as well, fit his messed up character like a hand in a glove). But after the "Resistance" on New Caprica, he became Saul "MF" T_gh. What was that line to the Chief back then, something like, "We're evil men, Chief, sent into the gardens of paradise to sow death and destruction wherever we go"? And that was that, SMF T_gh, by gods.

He's not a guy you want in charge, but he's one you definitely want to be at the right hand of the guy who is charge when the you-know-what hits the fan. He can do the dirty work that needs to be done, but he needs a superior to tell him when to stop.

And Tricia Helfer ought to win an Emmy as well. For "model turned actress", she's done pretty doggone good, I'll say again.

And of course, Olmos and Mary McDonnell ought to get 'em as well, of course. But it's scifi stigma and it won't happen.

-Richard

Launch window
2008-May-31, 04:08 PM
Battlestar Galactica has been willing to take some real risks in taking the story where the creators wanted to go with it, and it has obviously rubbed some people the wrong way.


I don't think you could ever truthfully call David Eick or Ron D Moore "Battlestar creators" since first of all they never created the show or its characters and people like Hatch had just as much involvement if not more involvemnet in rebooting the BSG name as an updated, darker show

http://www.battlestargalactica.com/hatchvision.htm

Jason
2008-May-31, 04:40 PM
The show shares a basic concept and some character names with the original series, and precious little else. I think Eik and Moore can definitely be called "the creators" of the current show. Hatch's vision was quite different from what we ended up with.

Launch window
2008-Jun-01, 10:58 AM
This kind of business is what regularly happens in scifi and fantasy movies, one year the studios hear monster movies are back in fashion and suddenly every one is ripping the latest Godzillia, Jurassic, KingKong concept. Personally I've been growing tired of the un-originality from Hollywood and all the remakes they have been trying to push. Pink Panther remake, House of Wax remake, Planet of the Apes, Swept Away, Rob Zombies Halloween, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and all those Japanese horror films getting remade.
Somebody originally created the Battlestar concept, the ships, the plot, the characters and IMO that's who the creators are. Nobody would dare say Robert Hewitt Wolf, Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore are the creators of DeepSpace9 when first of all Gene Roddenberry created the universe and characters and secondly it shares a lot of similarities with the Babylon-5 show paramount rejected. BSG is another of these tv series who's originality stands on very dubious grounds.

The new Battlestar series was getting good feedback and positive critical reaction and because of this I was still willing to give the show a chance regardless of it trying to be a sexed-up copy for the modern generation. The first two seasons or the first season and a half are IMO a great show, the series has great direction, it has some great veteran actors who bring a realism to the series, its got great writing and back in the first two seasons it had great storytelling. There was a Cylon Plan, it had well written drama, they were able to balance the dark moody look in Battlestar season one with more casual moments on the Cloud Nine passenger cruiser. The new Battlestar was better written than the old and it felt many times better than the old 70s show.

Somewhere along the season 2 journey new Battlestar began to loose me, I wasn't sure where it began. Was it the Lucy Lawless mocu-mentary with shaky camera ? Was it transforming the terminators and seductive terminatrix into a bunch of emo kids who have debates in caffe demetre ? Was the problem killer sexbots worrying about paying the rent and Neo-Boomer/Neo-Six befriending the football star Anders? Or was it the five month and ten month time jumps in New Caprica ? Whatever the case I went online to see why this Battlestar was now lost in space and I concluded it boiled down to lazy writing. The show was good because basically the stole the scripts and stole the blueprints from other Battlestar shows. By "They" I mean David Eick and Michael Rymer because contary to popular media opinion Moore was not so involved with the mini series and was occupied on a series by Daniel Knauf. When I say they took the blueprints I mean they stole the NewCylon ships from the production of Richard Hatch.
In a very elusive trailer you can see who really created the Cylon raiders (http://www.alanlight.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=69&sid=c80388cf5e540973f0c069d006f0509f)
This might explain why Richard Hatch was so hostile to the new series, he used rant and slam the new series on a regular basis.
However the new producers outplayed him, silenced him with money and offered him an acting job and Hatch has been selling the new show ever since. The similarities with the canceled Bryan Singer series are more than just coincidental. Singer was also going to sex-up and relaunch the Battlestar name. Balance a dark moody look with more casual moments, Singer's show was also going to feature more feminine moments - a female political leader Mara and her love-hate relationship with the Battlestar Commander (In the David Eick and Rymer version backed by scifi channel they changed the names to Roslin and William "Bill" Adama). In the new show we have the plot twists whenever a character like Boomer or Tigh or Cavil are revealed to be Cylons. Well guess what ? For some bizarre coincidence Bryan Singer's Battlestar also featured this twist making Apollo a borgified terminator in disguise.

As a whole I feel Battlestar is a victim of its own hype, a victim of its own greatness. Like a athletic marathon runner Battlestar came sprinting out of pegs on this track and field like some kind of cheetah blasting away the other contenders for the first 100 metres. The Cylon plan worked, the show was flying and I may have ranked Battlestar alongside the Fireflys etc but the show soon tired, looking back on it I think it boils down to lazy writing. These days it stumbles around in circles
Because it was once a great series and because I've already seen most of the series, I might just keep watching just to see who is the final cylon. However the Battlestar is no longer an enjoyable or entertaining experience but I've invested time in it so I'm stuck for the long run.

Jason
2008-Jun-01, 02:58 PM
I disagree. BSG is still a great series, and probably (still) the best thing on television. Whether you view that as praise for BSG or damnation for the rest of TV is up to you.

Of course you can say that Deep Space 9 had different creators from the other shows - it's on the credits of every episode.

"Creation" of a TV show, or pretty much anything meant to entertain, always borrows heavily from other sources. The only difference between a re-imagining and another typical show is that the re-imagining comes right out and admits what one of its sources is. The original BSG itself was a Star Wars rip-off, after all - and when Lucas sued them they pointed out that his own ideas were not that original in the first place.

Hokie
2008-Jun-02, 04:00 PM
"when Lucas sued them"
It is my understanding that Lucas did not sue it was 20th Century Fox that sued. In fact ILM did FX for Galactica

Jason
2008-Jun-02, 04:25 PM
ILM didn't do effects for Galactica - John Dykstra (who worked on Star Wars and had a major part in developing the computer-controlled cameras used there) did, using many of the same techniques. Dykstra wasn't with ILM at the time.
Fox was indeed the party that sued Universal for infringement in Galactica, and Universal's counter-suite said Star Wars had stolen ideas from the Universal Silent Running (which Dykstra also worked on) and the '40s Buck Rogers serials.
The suites were eventually dismissed as being "without merit" - the judges apparently agreed with me that all "original creations" in fact borrow liberally from other soruces.

Doodler
2008-Jun-03, 01:37 AM
The series grew on me quickly. I've been up and down the season list, picking episodes at random to fill in story elements I'm missing, since i only started watching season 4.

Larson basically took the original 70s creation and tanked the campy, family friendly, holier-than-thou crap out of the first version, and gave us a science fiction series worthy of comparison to Babylon 5. This regurgitation of old material is definitely an anomaly in the remake world for being highly superior to the original.

publius
2008-Jun-03, 04:35 AM
The series grew on me quickly. I've been up and down the season list, picking episodes at random to fill in story elements I'm missing, since i only started watching season 4.



Heh. I would've recommended watching it all from the beginning to really enjoy it. But that's just me. In your random picking, you can skip "Black Market", from Season 2. While there is argument over which episodes are worse than average, just about everyone agrees that one was the biggest stinker of the bunch.

I hoped you've watched the Pegasus arc episodes with Admiral Cain (RoCain). They were some of the best.

My favorite scene to date is from Exodus at the beginning of Season 3 during the rescue. PopAdama jumps the Galactica low into New Crapica's atmosphere and launches vipers. The Galactica, not designed to fly, just drops like a rock. A huge fireball develops around the ship as it fall, with the vipers launching right out into the flames. That was some good "space porn" as they call it indeed.

Pop had ordered Lee and the Pegasus to stay with the remaining fleet and go on with the search for Earth if he failed. And it looked like he was going to fail. The Galactica is shot to hell. Bill says something like, "This is it. Gentlemen, it's been an honor to serve with you all" and waits for the basestars to finish him off.

At that moment, Lee jumps the big bad Pegasus in with her big foward guns blazing (he left all his vipers to protect the fleet with just a skeleton crew) and saves the Galactica. However, he loses the Pegasus. He aims it on a collision course with a basestar and he and the crew escape in raptors. The collision results in a massive explosion that takes out two more basestars. It was some good space battle porn indeed.

-Richard

Jason
2008-Jun-03, 04:44 AM
RoCain? You're just like Seinfield - you've got a wierd name for everyone in the show.

publius
2008-Jun-03, 05:05 AM
RoCain? You're just like Seinfield - you've got a wierd name for everyone in the show.

:lol: It's fun, but most of 'em aren't original with me by a long shot. The TVWOP board is full of 'em. Michelle Forbes was Ensign Ro on Star Trek TNG, hence Ro-Cain, which sounds like Rogaine.

For example, they used to call Roslin "President Botox", but that made some of the women mad, so they switched to Madame Airlock. Gaeta's nickname is "Gaydis" -- I'll let you figure it out. :)

And speaking of nicknames, Xena (Xylon, Lucylon, Xenabot, etc) in particular, here's a little clip Sci-Fi put up of Lucy Lawless acting a bit wild and diva-ish on the set. {Warning, there's dirty words said here}

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/video/index.php?clip=8&sub=blog

That just struck me as funny. Apparently, that was while they were filming her unboxing scenes with her wearing the white robe.

-Richard

Jason
2008-Jun-03, 02:59 PM
I understood the nickname - I'm just not sure why everyone needs one.

Hokie
2008-Jun-03, 04:05 PM
My favorite scene to date is from Exodus at the beginning of Season 3 during the rescue. PopAdama jumps the Galactica low into New Crapica's atmosphere and launches vipers. The Galactica, not designed to fly, just drops like a rock. A huge fireball develops around the ship as it fall, with the vipers launching right out into the flames. That was some good "space porn" as they call it indeed.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x32/hokie95/web/srslybestgifevar.gif

The Adama maneuver for the win

Doodler
2008-Jun-03, 11:57 PM
If the man's stones were any harder, his shorts would disappear into the event horizon...

Launch window
2008-Jun-08, 10:00 PM
ILM didn't do effects for Galactica - John Dykstra (who worked on Star Wars and had a major part in developing the computer-controlled cameras used there) did, using many of the same techniques. Dykstra wasn't with ILM at the time.
Fox was indeed the party that sued Universal for infringement in Galactica, and Universal's counter-suite said Star Wars had stolen ideas from the Universal Silent Running (which Dykstra also worked on) and the '40s Buck Rogers serials.
The suites were eventually dismissed as being "without merit" - the judges apparently agreed with me that all "original creations" in fact borrow liberally from other soruces.

Here's an article on the connections between Singer's series and the new series, in Singer's version they turned Apollo into one of those sleeper robots in the new series it happened to be Boomer(played by the Asian girl)



Tom Desanto remembers his BSG project (http://www.battlestargalactica.com/outside_docs/bg_outdoc0034.htm)

In typical "Locutus of Borg" fashion, Apollo -- controlled by Cylon technology -- re-emerges to threaten the Colonials. Describing the finale, DeSanto says, "In the final shot, you go through the clouds, and you actually see the Cylon planet for the first time. It's this massive, mechanized society, and you go in through the 'Chamber of Rule' as we called it. You hear these voices talking, and you come across wave after wave of Cylons. Then you come through the shadows and you see human faces and the last face you see was Richard Hatch. It was Apollo, and as you push in on his face, in the middle of his pupil you saw a little red Cylon eye." Although updated to reflect the passage of time, the technology, spacecraft and sets for the remake remained faithful to the 1978 originals