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View Full Version : Season 3 of Enterprise Episode 1 SPOILERS AHEAD



tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 01:01 AM
Any thoughts, reactions?

I thought overall it was ok. Not great but better than a lot of the hohum episodes from last year. There was a rather shameless grab of for attention with T'Pol t/a levels being so high. I thought my litle sister was going to stay red forever after that scene. :oops:

Humphrey
2003-Sep-11, 01:04 AM
dang. I don't see it till tomorrow afternoon. that is when it is shown here. :-(

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 01:10 AM
That was more T/A than I am used to seeing in a ST episode. Actually it was just T.

I am glad they brought some Marines. I like having characters I can identify with. I hope they don't get stupid with them.

My wife is watching Jake 2.0 as I type this. So far it is stupid.

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 01:21 AM
Not to belabor this part of the episode although I think it will be belabored anyway. As I am rewatching the episode (yes I am that big a dork and good bless TIVO) you can clearly see T'Pol's rear when she gets down on the bed.

On another note I did love the scene with the barrels and such switching sides in the cargo bay. It's what I imagine happens to my UPS packages :cry:

pmcolt
2003-Sep-11, 02:22 AM
{edit: this post may or may not contain spoilers}

Some of my thoughts:

I didn't think the theme song could get any worse. I was wrong.

I guess "Vulcan neuropressure therapy" is the new replacement for the decontamination chamber. I get the feeling that the writers would be more at home on a premium network rather than UPN.

I probably missed it in the season finale, but I'm not clear on Archer's new mission. They were supposed to find the Xindi homeworld and... do what? Blow up a few cities? Surveil the area and return to Earth? Ask them please not to kill us anymore?

Marines! They can fight! They're quick and efficient! They have weapons with targeting sights, and they can aim! Nothing like this has ever before been seen in Star Trek history!

There are five species of Xindi; some reptilian, some mammalian, some sluglike, yet they're all more closely related than modern humans are to Neanderthals?

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 02:32 AM
The quote was more closely related than humans are to chimps. There is less than 2% difference in DNA between humans and chimps. The variance between humans and neanderthals hasn't been fully established(to my knowledge). The last article I saw related to this subject gave an estimate that was way south of .5% (and that was really just a guess at the time and I am digging right now to find the article so give me a little bit of time and I may have the actual number ) but that was a while ago. It has also been established that Neanderthals aren't Homo sapien sapien predecessors but more of a side change that did not reintegrate into the modern lineages and lost out in competition with modern humans. At least that was the supported theory when I took my evolutionary genetics course.

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 02:48 AM
I agree about the theme sone. My wife always loved it, and now they have ruined it.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-11, 02:56 AM
What did they do to it? I like the origonal song.

Madcat
2003-Sep-11, 03:43 AM
did not reintegrate into the modern lineages and lost out in competition with modern humans

Kicked their furry bee-hinds! Oh yeah! 8) Ever wonder where legends about Giants come from?

Zamboni
2003-Sep-11, 03:44 AM
What did they do to it? I like the origonal song.

They changed it into Country for some reason...

What's T/A? I'm guess tits and *** but somebody correct me if I'm wrong... For all I know it could be some meaningful acronym with deep purposes? Was there any actual nudity? I was away during that sequence...

AKONI
2003-Sep-11, 03:51 AM
The Marines have turned out to be a great addition. The fight was well done and realistic. Fights in Star Trek have always looked overly fake to me, but one Marine even snapped someone's neck!

I was making dinner so I missed the opening song, but is it another horror by Diane Warren? That woman has co-written with and ruined everyone from Arosmith to KISS.

I forgot who mentioned it before in another thread, but T'Pol's outfit while she was on the bridge was defintily very retro - very TOS - very cool.

I also like the fact that there's a sort of blood lust now and I really wanted to see Trip snap and beat the hell out of that Xindi.


By the way,.. did anyone else notice the coucil was sort of simular to the concil in Attack of the Clones? They even had an insect in it.

Zamboni
2003-Sep-11, 03:57 AM
Apparently they are trying to knock off Star Wars now (or perhaps they have been doing it for decades I wouldn't know)... It wouldn't surprise me if the "weapon of mass destruction" turned out to be a... DeathStar!!! (next thing you know they'll be using light sabers with the force and Trip goes to the dark side...)

Humphrey
2003-Sep-11, 04:09 AM
Apparently they are trying to knock off Star Wars now (or perhaps they have been doing it for decades I wouldn't know)... It wouldn't surprise me if the "weapon of mass destruction" turned out to be a... DeathStar!!! (next thing you know they'll be using light sabers with the force and Trip goes to the dark side...)


Would that mean trip is Archers father?



[Humphrey runs away....]

Zamboni
2003-Sep-11, 04:15 AM
Would that mean trip is Archers father?

No... But he is T'Pol's brother... Archer is chewie and his dog can be Yoda.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-11, 07:53 AM
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html

for info on Neanderthals.

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 11:30 AM
The whole thing about neandrathals being giants is incorrect. My understanding is that they would be more like the dwarves in LOTR. Short and stocky. They were very tough with a thick bone structure, and musculature, but actually a bit shorter than modern humans. I believe they also had a small larynx and a poorly developed tongue. Their speech was not as advanced as that of out ancestors, and that may habeen where they lost their edge.

I hope they are not going to try to parallel off of recent events. Going political like that is a loose-loose situation. Last season when they had the attack on Florida my first thought was that they were doing 9-11.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-11, 11:35 AM
The whole thing about neandrathals being giants is incorrect. My understanding is that they would be more like the dwarves in LOTR. Short and stocky. They were very tough with a thick bone structure, and musculature, but actually a bit shorter than modern humans. I believe they also had a small larynx and a poorly developed tongue. Their speech was not as advanced as that of out ancestors, and that may habeen where they lost their edge.



from talk origins faq at the above link

Neandertals mostly lived in cold climates, and their body proportions are similar to those of modern cold-adapted peoples: short and solid, with short limbs. Men averaged about 168 cm (5'6") in height. Their bones are thick and heavy, and show signs of powerful muscle attachments. Neandertals would have been extraordinarily strong by modern standards.

Speculation on speech and language is just that.

Donnie B.
2003-Sep-11, 12:03 PM
My impressions...

Some excellent CG in the council scenes. Great touch to include an aquatic species, and an insectoid that doesn't speak English.

Absolutely blatant and shameless pandering in the "neuropressure" scene. I didn't mind, personally :P but I wish we could have some less sophomoric SF. (I'm encouraged by the Firefly revival mentioned in another thread.)

One thing seems to have been settled: Vulcans are mammals. :roll:

I agree with those who have decried the parallels with 9/11. Seems to me that it's an attempt to rescue the series by steering it far from its original concept (which I liked, and which could have been excellent if the writing had been up to the challenge). I'm wondering how far into this season they'll be carrying this story line. Is it just a couple episodes, or does it go on all year? Anybody know?

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 12:18 PM
Based on the complexity of the councel meetings I would say they are settleing in for the long haul. A lot of thought and effort went into creating the Xindi. I think they may well become the Klingons, Feringi, Romulans, etc. of this series. I think they are here to stay.

R.A.F.
2003-Sep-11, 01:16 PM
Some excellent CG in the council scenes. Great touch to include an aquatic species, and an insectoid that doesn't speak English.

I was also very impressed with this.


One thing seems to have been settled: Vulcans are mammals. :roll:

Why YES in dee dee doo!!


I'm wondering how far into this season they'll be carrying this story line. Is it just a couple episodes, or does it go on all year? Anybody know?

Don't know but my guess would be that (with the exception of a very few episodes) this will be the story arc for the entire season. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

I was most impressed with the addition of the soldiers. FINALLY, ST has competent "red shirts", and they can shoot too!

Stuart
2003-Sep-11, 02:00 PM
I thought the neuropressure pandering to the PFY market was regrettable. Also, the writers don't seem to understand relative ranks (Lieutenants, even naval ones, do not give orders to Majors). I suspect that Reed would have been killed and eaten if he'd behaved that way around a group of SEALs or Force Recon.

However, we have (at very long last) seen a reasonably competent and capable ground fighting force in Star Trek (I checked the credits for a military technical advisor - they didn't seem to have one). Put into a larger context of the ST universe, I think we can see the start here of the eclipse of ground forces in Starfleet and the concentration of resources into the starships. When Reed starts trying to throw his weight around with his ground-force superiors and gets away with it, its indicative of a growing attitude in senior command.

Revised theme tune was even worse than the original.

The dynamics inside the Xindi Confederation were interesting and it was a good idea to make them that rather than a single race. Its also interesting that there were repeated hints that the "Threat From Earth" was constructed by parts of the Xindi Confederation as part of an internal powerplay. Depending on how they intend to handle that, it could be a thoughful look at how power-politics decision making is done or a superannuated hippy rant. I hope the former, I suspect the latter. It also opens the possibility that, somewhere along the line, Enterprise will split the Xindi Confederation apart, possibly with one or more components joining the Federation.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 02:19 PM
I am just fully convinced that whatever they would do wouldn't be enough.
I personally thought the episode last night was great.
Marines snapping necks, severed fingers, obliterated planets, aliens that aren't humanoid or fluent in english, a shot between the eyes, breasts — and to be fair to those who care — a fit shirtless guy.
Archer is becoming a jerk. Trip is getting fierce. Malcolm is finally breaking free of the stick up his rear and Hoshi is just as sweet as ever.

I see some exciting things ahead.

A few points:

1. Just because we are having a Puritanical Backwash here in 2003 — which I personally think is outrageously silly — doesn't mean that these outdated and illogical sensibilities about nudity and sex should apply to the future.
Everyone is nekkid under their clothes. Big whoop. Get over it.
I would have prefered to see her not so modest — Trip was behind her and the camera is "not there."
(I know, I know ... but it's our fault that these silly rules exist and none of us are stepping up to get rid of them. Violence and gore is ok — sex is not — please!)

2. Science fiction has been around for ages — even if it was called something else before our modern era. Star Trek came first before Star Wars. I know that they didn't have the technology to do what Star Wars did first, but the idea was always there. I had — but lost a long time ago — a book of drawings based on Roddenberry's aliens from the Star Trek Universe. There were non-humanoids in that book — and I seem to recall there being an insectoid in that book as well. Limits in budget and technology is most likely what stopped the Original Series from having these aliens present, although they did have the Horta, Medusans, and other non-humanoid beings in some of the episodes.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-11, 02:31 PM
What did they do to it? I like the origonal song.

So far as I could tell, they just added a rhythm line to it. It sounds more like a dance tune now. I kind of liked it before, but I think this was a step down.

Looked to me as if they jazzed up the graphics just a little bit, too, making the "blueprint" images overlaid on the animation more frequent and more obvious.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-11, 02:33 PM
Based on the complexity of the councel meetings I would say they are settleing in for the long haul. A lot of thought and effort went into creating the Xindi. I think they may well become the Klingons, Feringi, Romulans, etc. of this series. I think they are here to stay.

Obviously a lot of SFX work went into that council, but it's laughable if all those creatures are supposed to be Xindi and as closely related as we are to Neandertals.

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 02:34 PM
More likely Reed would have just gotten laughed at. We don't eat naval officers. Effective ground forces have been lacking from ST. One of the things I like about Andromada is that, though they can't field them now, it was the standard practice of the Commonwealth fleet to keep a battalion of "Lancers" an its major vessels. Capt. Hunt often lamented the lack of a solid landing force in episodes that were going to require ground forces.

For Enterprise, if we were going to assume they are basing their ground combat forces on the curent AWS doctrine, there would be a "Ship's Platoon" commanded by a lieutenant. Judging by what I saw in the show they have at best a squad. FYI, the construction of Marine units is as folows.
4 men = fire team
3 fire teams = squad
3 squad = platoon
3 platoons + weapons/assault platoon = company
3 company + weapons company + support company = battalion
3 battalion = regiment
The next biggest unit is a division which is a complicated beast, and I am not going to bore you. If I were in command of Starfleet, and there was enough room on the Enterprise, I would want a Battalion Landing Team. That is a Marine infantry battalion reenforced with an artillery battery and a platoon each of Amphibious Assault Vehicles, Combat Engineers, Tanks, Recon, Comm, Motor-T, Anti Aircraft, and assorted cats and dogs. Of course once you get all of the supporting services taken care of it takes 3-5 ships dedicated to carying Marines to pull that off, and it seems unlikely that there is that kind of space on the Enterprise. So a small, highly trained team under the command of whoever id deemed most qualified would be best. Also, when Marines are embarked, they have no part of the ships security, unless a few of them are tasked to the ship to support the ships own security forces. If there is an incident on the ship the Navy side is in charge, and the Marines are secured to their quarters until it is over. This jives with what the major told Reed.

Sorry for being so long winded.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 02:41 PM
Um...

You see... I think you guys are being overly critical for effect.

Phlox said that the man on the slave world was to the pilot of the craft that attacked Earth as homo sapiens were to Neanderthal.
That was it.

The Council was never revealed as anything other than a Council of aliens, not necessarily the Xindi.
They could be a council comprised of the alien races that are ignoring the Temporal codes — an assumption based on the information given in the first two seasons. The Suliban were the workhorses for the Future Guy, but it is never actually revealed how many other races are using the temporal line to pervert history to their advantage. In fact, it is implied that there are many, not just one — so perhaps the "one" is made up of a council as we saw last night.
Of course, that is a guess.
In reviewing the scene, there are a few humanoids that are similar-looking, in addition to the insect and the whale-things.

You guys are just being negative on purpose.
(Like I am with SG-1)

Heh.

Stuart
2003-Sep-11, 03:22 PM
More likely Reed would have just gotten laughed at. We don't eat naval officers.
Hmmm. Know a few naval officer types who would take some convincing of that. There is a reason why they hold briefings for Marines etc after Chow-time......

I suspect the Major rank was used on the grounds that Colonel would have been obviously absurd while Captain, Lieutenant etc were too "naval". I wonder if the plotline has Reed getting whacked and the Major taking his place?


For Enterprise, if we were going to assume they are basing their ground combat forces on the curent AWS doctrine, there would be a "Ship's Platoon" commanded by a lieutenant. Judging by what I saw in the show they have at best a squad. (snip) So a small, highly trained team under the command of whoever is deemed most qualified would be best.

Agreed; going by the numbers used on the raid at the end, I'd suggest probably either a heavily-reinforced squad or a short platoon. Either would fit the concept. We didn't have evidence of any heavy weapons so that would rule out a larger group (I note we do have what appeared to be an equivalent of a DMR though). If heavy support weapons (MGs, mortars) turn up in later shows we can revise that upwards. Colonel S's White Mice platoons may be a useful model. There we have a standard infantry platoon (normally three ten-man squads, a support squad and a four-person command element for a total of 44) with the support squad replaced by a fourth infantry squad.


Also, when Marines are embarked, they have no part of the ships security, unless a few of them are tasked to the ship to support the ships own security forces. If there is an incident on the ship the Navy side is in charge, and the Marines are secured to their quarters until it is over. This jives with what the major told Reed.

The catch would come if there is a boarding action. Combat ranges in Star Trek are so close that boarding is a viable combat tactic. Fighting boarding actions was the original reason for the existance of the Marines (at least when the Spanish originated the idea of specialized sea-going infantry in the 15th Century). Since Star Trek naval tactics owe more to the Battle of Lepanto than Jutland or Midway, that's something we may see.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-11, 04:10 PM
So a small, highly trained team under the command of whoever id deemed most qualified would be best. Also, when Marines are embarked, they have no part of the ships security, unless a few of them are tasked to the ship to support the ships own security forces. If there is an incident on the ship the Navy side is in charge, and the Marines are secured to their quarters until it is over. This jives with what the major told Reed.

Sorry for being so long winded.


RN ships have a detachment of Marines aboard, even a small ship like a frigate will have a section (10 men). They are trained as a part of the crew for action, manning damage control teams and casualty clearing.

In the old days on Battleships and Cruisers the 'Y' turret and its associated magazines and handling rooms was always manned by the marines. Royal Marines aren't a seperate force though, they are an integral part of the RN.

If they are along for the ride they have to be useful.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 04:17 PM
Two things people:

1. This is a tv show based on concepts written by people who don't know a flying fig about the military. Additionally, who is to say that the entire structure of that is in the future known as the "military" isn't entirely different to what we have today. These people are the survivors of a world war which devastated much of the planet. Restructuring is just part of the norm.

2. A personal note, really ... but I hope this thread doesn't deconstruct into testosterone-laden weapons talk like one other thread did.
It was simply boring and had nothing to do with the topic at hand — which is now — Enterprise and its new "direction."
But ... since I am already the minority because of my overall positive view of the show ... I guess I can be overruled quite easily.

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 04:29 PM
Just because we are having a Puritanical Backwash here in 2003 — which I personally think is outrageously silly — doesn't mean that these outdated and illogical sensibilities about nudity and sex should apply to the future.
Everyone is nekkid under their clothes. Big whoop. Get over it.
I would have prefered to see her not so modest — Trip was behind her and the camera is "not there."
(I know, I know ... but it's our fault that these silly rules exist and none of us are stepping up to get rid of them. Violence and gore is ok — sex is not — please!)


I was the one who strted this so I figure I'll respond to this one but just once. There is nothing wrong with nudity, or sex in relation to story telling but that isn't what is happening here! They are trying to use it as a hook to get people (Males 18-45) to tune in to see T'pol's tata's. If they were going to be taking a progressive/no shame approach to the subject they would have started the show that way from the beginning and aired this on HBO where such items have had a precedant(Remeber the first stargate anyone). Certain scenes would make much more sense if the were unclothed such as decontamination but the shot here was for a onetime ratings increase. That is the problem i had with the scene and Star Trek's use of sex to sell. It's more of a shock value thing with Troi,7,T'Pol running around in heels and a catsuit and T'Pol's wonderful little scene in this weeks ep. I don't really mind looking at T'Pol, Jolene Blalock is very attractive, but I hate that it is a transparent little ratings stunt.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-11, 04:49 PM
We don't eat naval officers.

But only because they give you indigestion. ;)

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 05:06 PM
Captain Swoop makes a good point. In a space fleet you can't have a dedicated ground force most of the time. Embarked Marines spend a lot of time jsut sitting around or making up things to do. You can't really have war games on ship, so training often suffers. In the old days the Marines were in charge of secondary gunnery. Still, I think the prevailing thought among the writers is that any idiot can pick up a phaser and fight effectively, so no need to have specially trained personnel. Trust me, it is not that easy. It would still make sense for them to learn to do a few things on the ship.

I am curious about this wonder weapon the Xindi are working on. I can't help thinking that it might e a biological weapon.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 05:28 PM
Respectfully, Tuffel, I disagree — not with the core of your post — it was a ratings grab — but with the spirit of it.
The only reason that we care is because of the Puritanical backwash that exists. In Europe — well, in many European nations — nudity can be found anywhere from prime time tv to car ads.
Someone flashes a bit of crumpet on tv in the States and Violα — it's bad or useless or just a grab for attention.

It's a breast people. Most women have two. We would have them too if it weren't for testosterone — although steroid abusers develop them quite nicely.

Why didn't the massive erection in Trip's shorts in the FIRST episode causing as much of a stir?
Why isn't his chest exposure last night causing a stir?
He is shirtless more times than she is.

Yes. I know there is a difference.
But, still, it's no big deal. Guys are shirtless all the time. Women, however, are forbidden to, as if they need to be ashamed of their natural anatomy.
These issues stem straight from you-know-where and they really need to be done away with.
I say let them all loose.
We'd care less about them if they weren't these mysterious globes hidden from view to be discovered or exposed.

If the Fundies have their way, we'll all be ranting and raving about seeing T'Pol's ankles in about a year.

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 05:33 PM
We don't eat naval officers.

But only because they give you indigestion. ;)

No, they are just high in saturated fat.

Zamboni
2003-Sep-11, 06:11 PM
All this discussion about sexual indiscretion in future societies reminded me of another film: Starship Troopers. If any of you have seen it would you comment that its presentation of such change in societal values is more natural?

Another point of contrast between ST and ST (hmm they have the same initials) is their battle tactics; while one relies mostly on starships the other relies mostly on troopers... Wonder why all these writers always take such extreme points of view when it comes to future combat?

AKONI
2003-Sep-11, 06:18 PM
Additionally, who is to say that the entire structure of that is in the future known as the "military" isn't entirely different to what we have today.

True. If memory serves me right, the USMC didn't become fully independent of the Navy until WWII, so beforehand they were structered diffrently than they are today.

I don't have a problem with the show of modesty even though the camera is not there. I don't think my five year old nephew needs to see breasts right now. I think he should have other things on his mind, like learning to play well with others in kindergarten.

As for the violence. Star Trek has never been overly graphic (especially by American standards). Even when the Marine snapped that guard's neck, there was no loud snap, and if you weren't looking you'd have missed it. I think they're getting a good balance beween realism and sugarcoating.


Ripper: That's a great sig you got there.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 06:29 PM
According to the history of the Earth as layed out by Q during Encounter at Farpoint — and other Q episodes of the NextGen series, Earthers have a whole plethora of troopers, including genetically-enhanced warriors as well as drug-enhanced versions.

I'm not sure if these would be mentioned in this Trek, since those troops preceeded this timeline by some decades — if not a century or so.

I think it is incresingly difficult to develop original ideas for scifi these days. The council scene was very similar to a council scene I myself wrote over 10 years ago.
My council had many more members involved, but the concept was the same, right down to the water tanks in the background.
My idea wasn't original then, although I didn't steal it from anything I had read — but I hadn't read too much then either. It is simply a logical way to imagine what a council with many species would look like and how they could or would accomodate an aquatic species or a species which breathes a different atmosphere or is accustomed to a different gravity level.
(My room was much larger — accomodating 232 members in that particular Congress — and very clean, white, and ultra modern. In fact, it was very much like the council chambers seen at the climax Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country, although mch bigger. I had written that scene and even painted out the scene years before.)

SG-1 cannabalizes from various sources too. Most sci-fi does.
I think it is more homage than anything malicious.

I could be wrong though.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 06:43 PM
Good points Akoni, but one nit:

Your son would look at the breast and keep on going. He wouldn't know of any of the connotations adults associate to that region until one is made. He isn't blind, I assume, so he knows that women's chests are different than his own or of other males, but after the curiousity is gone, it would be next subject.
It is how we adults broach these issues with our kids that mold what their associations are going to be — ideally.

I do understand it is a touchy subject for us here in the States. Since so much is taboo, it makes it difficult for parents to take the higher step to educate their children properly about humanity and what the body is and what each thing is for — of course in a manner which is suited for the child's age and mental development.
Keeping things in the closet or trating them like they are some massive secret just adds to the allure. Most kids flow through these issues just fine, but others can become quite obsessed with the secret and get lost in the interim.

If you guys have a problem with a flash of a partial breast on UPN ... just take a gander at MTV or VH1 ... or F/X, or Bravo sometime.
Now there's where things go wholley arwy ... but that's because we are still dealing with the backlash caused by the very issues that started this discussion in the first place.

Ripper
2003-Sep-11, 07:06 PM
Actually, the Marine Corps is still part of the Department of the Navy. We were subordinate to the Navy until the late 80s that the Corps bacame its own service. Prior to that the Commandant was subordinate to the Chief of Staff of the Navy. The Corps does still only get about 4% of the defence budget. Compare that to the fact that we do about 1/3 of the actual operations.

I think the reason they put a Major in charge of the detachment is because he Marine rank structure is different. A Second Lieutenant is equal to an Ensign, a First Liuetenant is equal to a Lieutenant Junior Grade, and a Captain is equal to a Lieutenant. A navy Captain is equal to a Marine Colonel. Are you confused yet? It is easier to just put a Major in charge so you do not have to explain. A simpler solution would be to do what some nation's Marines do and just use the Navy rank structure.

gethen
2003-Sep-11, 07:11 PM
It has also been established that Neanderthals aren't Homo sapien sapien predecessors but more of a side change that did not reintegrate into the modern lineages and lost out in competition with modern humans. At least that was the supported theory when I took my evolutionary genetics course.

It seems there's also a growing school of thought that Neanderthals actually interbred and were assimilated by homo sapiens. Something about a nasal suture found in some northern European ethnic groups that is typical of Neanderthals and not likely to have evolved separately twice. I'll have to look into this. Maybe Humphey has read about it.

frenat
2003-Sep-11, 07:28 PM
The marines may be subject to whomever is in command of the ship and since the captain was down on the planet, Trip was in charge. Otherwise yes he would have been eaten. Now that's a star trek scene I'd like to see. Can you pass the kidneys?

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 07:54 PM
Gethen:" It seems there's also a growing school of thought that Neanderthals actually interbred and were assimilated by homo sapiens. Something about a nasal suture found in some northern European ethnic groups that is typical of Neanderthals and not likely to have evolved separately twice. I'll have to look into this. Maybe Humphey has read about it."




The problem with that theory of reintigration was explored a while ago in a great review article that appeared in the Discover. The info to look it up is here:

'Not Our Mom' Discover; Jan98 Special Issue, Vol. 19 Issue 1, p32, 2p, 2c

The long and short of it is: Back in 1997 they were finally able to extract mitochondrial DNA directly from neanderthal bones. When they did this it was discovered that in a 379 bp section neanderthals differed from modern humans at 27 positiuons. The largest difference established between modern samples was 8 positions. So the researchers did some calculations and they extrapilated that they must have diverged 500,000 years ago and not reintigrated. The primary source is below.

Krings, M., Stone, A., Schmitz, R.W., Krainitzki, H., Stoneking, M., and Pδδbo, S.: Neandertal DNA sequences and the origin of modern humans. Cell 90: 19-30 (1997)

It was fascinating work.

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Sep-11, 08:05 PM
During the ground assault, they showed the woman marine get knocked down by a baddie. "Oh great, I thought, a sexist scene..." and before the thought could complete itself they showed her beat the heck out of the alien with a series of vicious moves. I laughed out loud.

I didn't get the impression that all the aliens shown were Xindi sub-species. I figured they were various aliens in on an alliance. It was never stated outright they were Xindi. The Xindi prisoner said there were 5 kinds... and there were more than 5 species in the council room, weren't there?

Stuart
2003-Sep-11, 08:05 PM
The marines may be subject to whomever is in command of the ship and since the captain was down on the planet, Trip was in charge. Otherwise yes he would have been eaten. Now that's a star trek scene I'd like to see. Can you pass the kidneys?

Depends whose naval traditions they are following. In quite a few navies, the engineering branch is not in the line of command (in some, nor is communications). In fact, the line of command seems to run from Archer to T'pol. After that it gets hazy which is a very bad thing.

By the way, another reason for having a major on board is that a lot of navies are sensitive about having ground force Captains around since its a much inferior rank to a Navy Captain and there can only be one Captain ona warship.

One of the major features of the new San Antonio class LPDs is that we're building in a lot of space for the Marines to do their things (that's not precisely new by the way; when the US Navy designed its first specialized amphibious transports - anybody like to guess when? - a key design feature was to allow enough space on the main deck for the Marines to march around four abreast. That wasn't easy.)

Modifying a ship like Enterprise to carry troops isn't easy. Back in WW2 we converted a load of DEs to carry Underwater Demolition Teams under the APD designation. It was a hard conversion that needed an extra deck for accommodation. It was worth it though; the APDs were valuable. That might be the best role mdoel for Enterprise - she's sent in as the recon so Earth knows where to land the real punch.

frenat
2003-Sep-11, 08:11 PM
I didn't get the impression that all the aliens shown were Xindi sub-species. I figured they were various aliens in on an alliance. It was never stated outright they were Xindi. The Xindi prisoner said there were 5 kinds... and there were more than 5 species in the council room, weren't there?

I thought I counted five different. Of course I didn't even think of it until it was mentioned there were five different sub-species and there weren't too many scenes with them after that. As far as not appearing to be closly related enough, what if they were genetically engineered at some point? Anyway I think it makes the most sense for them to be the Xindi, else why would they have mentioned it?

Stuart
2003-Sep-11, 08:13 PM
During the ground assault, they showed the woman marine get knocked down by a baddie. "Oh great, I thought, a sexist scene..." and before the thought could complete itself they showed her beat the heck out of the alien with a series of vicious moves. I laughed out loud.

Me too. I've had the happy experience of watching an overconfident and unsuspecting six-foot European male being dismantled by a five-foot Thai female. I understand the female soldier shown in that sequence is going to be a recurring character.


I didn't get the impression that all the aliens shown were Xindi sub-species. I figured they were various aliens in on an alliance. It was never stated outright they were Xindi. The Xindi prisoner said there were 5 kinds... and there were more than 5 species in the council room, weren't there?

I didn't think to count. I have an impression that there was the insect (Raid anyone?), the aquatic species and three sort-of humanoid species (one a reptile) but that may be my memory playing tricks. I'll watch the repeat on Sunday and do a count. I was going by Dr Phlox's comment about the finger and their sample being related but not the same. Perhaps the creatures in the alliance room were bioengineered for living on specific worlds and the real Xindi are something else?

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-11, 08:14 PM
I think there were more than 5 in that room.
There were three seated in a tight group, two others, one of which was standing and moving, I think, the insect and the whale things, that's 7 right there.

I think these are part of the conspiracy to pervert the timeline. Obviously they are keeping direct tabs on all events for some reason and may be the party involved in the destruction of the Xindi world they reached at the end.

But...

I think there were Xindi present, as they refered to the very weapon the Xindi are supposed to be making as something that they needed to complete.


And...

The planet was obviously destroyed by something. If it was done off by a weapon, then why do they have to make something different? Why not just use whatever they used to off the Xindi world.

Also...

Why not just use mass drivers? The astroid field of Sol system would be ample amunition to off the entire population a hundred times.

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 08:18 PM
How about this. This group of individuals are using one of the groups present to build this weapon and only 1 or some of the group seen actually are Xindi. Maybe the rest are directing, outsourcing parts, or from the future. That way they may have already destroyed the Xindi world and told them that the humans did it to get the Xindi to destroy the humans there by saving their butts in the temporal cold war.

Just thoughts.

frenat
2003-Sep-11, 08:19 PM
I thought there were more than 5 in the room but only 5 different. But then again I didn't watch closely enough.

snowcelt
2003-Sep-11, 08:21 PM
I am a bit hazy as to how this anecdote went, but, here it goes.

A navy Capt, with a liason role on an army base- in which he frequently flew back and forth to this army base, has a heck of a time getting base transport to give him a ride from the landing strip to the base proper.

He complains to one of his army counter-parts.

The army counter-part says to tell dispach that this is Col so-and-so, not Capt.

Got transport ever since.

Actually, I think I read that in a W.E.B Griffin novel---but still instructive.

frenat
2003-Sep-11, 08:23 PM
Why does the Navy use different rank anyway? Just tradition or is there a better reason?

snowcelt
2003-Sep-11, 08:25 PM
The navy is the senior service. The navy probably invented rank.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-11, 08:28 PM
The cast list (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/series/ENT/episode/1729.html) includes entries for "Xindi humanoid," "Xindi reptilian," and "Xindi sloth," which makes me think the council was indeed of the Xindi. Add in the insectoids and the water-based one (who don't get cast listings because they had to be translated), and you've got your five races.

gethen
2003-Sep-11, 08:30 PM
The problem with that theory of reintigration was explored a while ago in a great review article that appeared in the Discover. The info to look it up is here:

'Not Our Mom' Discover; Jan98 Special Issue, Vol. 19 Issue 1, p32, 2p, 2c

The long and short of it is: Back in 1997 they were finally able to extract mitochondrial DNA directly from neanderthal bones. When they did this it was discovered that in a 379 bp section neanderthals differed from modern humans at 27 positiuons. The largest difference established between modern samples was 8 positions. So the researchers did some calculations and they extrapilated that they must have diverged 500,000 years ago and not reintigrated. The primary source is below.

tuffel--thanks for the info. Hadn't seen that but will definitely try to check it out. :)

tuffel999
2003-Sep-11, 08:33 PM
Good luck with it you may have to know someone to get at the primary literature since journals are subscription based. If you can't get the info PM and I'll get it to you. :D

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Sep-11, 09:00 PM
Ah. Nice catch, ToSeek. I'll have to rewind my tape and count the aliens.

Eirik
2003-Sep-11, 09:39 PM
I am a bit hazy as to how this anecdote went, but, here it goes.

A navy Capt, with a liason role on an army base- in which he frequently flew back and forth to this army base, has a heck of a time getting base transport to give him a ride from the landing strip to the base proper.

He complains to one of his army counter-parts.

The army counter-part says to tell dispach that this is Col so-and-so, not Capt.

Got transport ever since.

Actually, I think I read that in a W.E.B Griffin novel---but still instructive.

I heard a flip-side anecdote to that a few years ago from Pt. Mugu Naval Air Station near Ventura, Calif. An officer out there commented that there used to be parking spaced in front of some buildings tagged "Captain's Only" or something like that. They started catching army captains parking in the spots and justifying it by their rank, so they repainted the spaces "Navy Captains only"...

Hrm, seemed funnier when he told it. Oh well. :-?

Humphrey
2003-Sep-11, 10:09 PM
It seems there's also a growing school of thought that Neanderthals actually interbred and were assimilated by homo sapiens. Something about a nasal suture found in some northern European ethnic groups that is typical of Neanderthals and not likely to have evolved separately twice. I'll have to look into this. Maybe Humphey has read about it.
[Emphasis mine]

A little freudian slip? :-P


Gethen: tuffel999's article is the latest i have heared from my classes.

The main reason why they thought Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens had mated was because in several areas (france is one, Iraq is another) they lived together for a short periods of time.

IF you canniot get the article i can go to our libreary, photocopy the article and mail it to you. It would be no problem. Or i could scan it in and e-mail it.



-----------------


About the episode. I loved the military component. IT was good and the new technology for the weapons was a heck of alot more powerfull than anything in TNG and DS9. The scope was a great addition.



The new songf was the exact same one, but they changed the background music to a more upbeat, dance style. It sucks.

They also added some weird fuzzyy blueprints ontop of everything.

For the species: i counted a humanoid, a bigfoot, a insect, a lizard, and a aquatic. Each came as a pair.

Archer came off more cocky than before. He seems to becoming more power mad and being driven crazy by the leadership responisbilities and a crew that is absolutely worthless in reality.

Hoshi is becoming a stronger character (the only one i think).

Trip is becoming more of a A** than ever before.




The infamous scene with T'pol and trip was purely for ratings.

while i would agree with you Val, Your version of a idealized society is just that, idealized. This show came out today, with todays standards. They know what men like, and they ran with it. They showed her breasts and the hint at almost everything but the nipples for just to nab that larger percentage of the male demographic and more tightly pull in the trekies that have been drifiting away.

They did not make every single bit of clothing she wore just barely better than bare skin for nuthing.

And for a speices that is supposed to controll all of their emotions they sure do put alot of emphasis on getting closed and personal so specific people of the opposite sex.

I know where the 5th vertebrea is on a human, assuming it is in the same place on a vulcan, there was bno need to take her shirt off to get it.

Even then that shirt was so thin he could of just rubbed throught it to get to her back.


The rest was no real big deal.

The planet destroying weapon was interesting. I wonder what they will do with it.

Maybe the super weapon are tribbles. The Xindi could be genetically engineering the things.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-11, 10:39 PM
I'm not going to read this thread...

2 reasons...

1) Enterprise series 2 starts in the UK this Sunday, so I guess I won't be seeing series 3 for about a year.

2) I am Enterprise's biggest fan.

Leave it alone!!! Let it be what it is and enjoy!!!

captain swoop
2003-Sep-12, 08:12 AM
snip

By the way, another reason for having a major on board is that a lot of navies are sensitive about having ground force Captains around since its a much inferior rank to a Navy Captain and there can only be one Captain ona warship.



In fact a ships captain doesn't have to be a captain. For instance the Destroyer HMS Nottingham that was run aground so embarrasingly last year was captained by a Commander.

(In his court martial this week he was found not to be directly responsible and was only repremanded, the 1st Lieutenant (Actualy a Lt Commander) and the OOW at the time were dismissed from their duties and the Nav officer severely reprimanded. Nottingham is nearly repaired. A bunch of the crew were just at Buckingham palace to get Queens Gallantry medals for their actions in saving the ship)




Modifying a ship like Enterprise to carry troops isn't easy. Back in WW2 we converted a load of DEs to carry Underwater Demolition Teams under the APD designation. It was a hard conversion that needed an extra deck for accommodation. It was worth it though; the APDs were valuable. That might be the best role mdoel for Enterprise - she's sent in as the recon so Earth knows where to land the real punch.

Modifying any warship to take on extra crew or equipment is always a struggle. Unlike Starships there is no wasted space, extra space means extra displacement which means a bigger hull or you lose something else.

Back in the days of the classic Fleet Destroyer up to the 1920s, each flotilla would have a specialy fitted out 'Flotilla Leader'. This would have extra accomodation and signals equipment but would be on a bigger hull.

Ripper
2003-Sep-12, 12:40 PM
More often than not they convert older, or obsolete ships for special purposes. The Growler and Grayback were submarines designed to cary the Regulous missile in horizontal tubes in their bows. The Regulous missile was obsolete shortly after the subs were launched, so they were converted into diver delivery subs, with the tubed converted into lock-outs for small boats, mini-subs, and divers. The problem is that the Enterprise is one of only a few warp capable ships that Earth has at this point. If they want a troop ship they are going to ave to build it from sctatch.

I am a Captain right now, and I do not bother to let Navy personnel know that I am a Marine when I am on the phone. I tend to get better service that way.

Boy am I hungry. And I am all out of Starfleet Officers.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-12, 01:13 PM
More often than not they convert older, or obsolete ships for special purposes. The Growler and Grayback were submarines designed to cary the Regulous missile in horizontal tubes in their bows. The Regulous missile was obsolete shortly after the subs were launched, so they were converted into diver delivery subs, with the tubed converted into lock-outs for small boats, mini-subs, and divers. The problem is that the Enterprise is one of only a few warp capable ships that Earth has at this point. If they want a troop ship they are going to ave to build it from sctatch.

I am a Captain right now, and I do not bother to let Navy personnel know that I am a Marine when I am on the phone. I tend to get better service that way.

Boy am I hungry. And I am all out of Starfleet Officers.

I would think that a substantial conversion would be uneconomic today, the cost of the hull being cheap compared to the rest of the ship, certainly a hull more than say, ten years old wouldn't be worth it.

A sub might be economic as the hulls are a substantial part of the overall costs.

I don't think an officer in the marines would worry the OOW of a warship, whatever the rank, certainly not in the RN.

Ripper
2003-Sep-12, 01:23 PM
Are you kidding? The average age of a ship in the U.S. Navy is over 30 years!. The last ship I was on is older than I am, and I am an old burn-out. The U.S. Air Force has airplanes that are in their 40s. The last B-52 came off the assembly line in 1962 and it is still the backbone of our bomber fleet. If they want to be accurate, and a real shooting war breaks out with the Xindi, there are going to be guys going into battle in obsolete ships. Maybe they will retrofit them with warp drives nd never weapons, but Earth is clearly not prepared for an interstellar war. hey are going to use whatever they have.

kucharek
2003-Sep-12, 01:27 PM
Well, we know from ST:The Voyage Home that they still have a few Bell AH-1 Hueys flying in the TOS-era... :)

Ripper
2003-Sep-12, 01:45 PM
That would have been a UH-1. If I recal, Sulu said that he had flown something "like" it in his acadamy days. By the way, the Huey is still in production. The Marines are going to get the newest version in 2005. The crews often have bumper stickers that say things like "Hueys forever" and "Never trust a helicopter under 30 years old".

Stuart
2003-Sep-12, 02:10 PM
I would think that a substantial conversion would be uneconomic today, the cost of the hull being cheap compared to the rest of the ship, certainly a hull more than say, ten years old wouldn't be worth it. A sub might be economic as the hulls are a substantial part of the overall costs.

As a matter of fact we have four major conversions going down right now. Four of the Ohio class SSBNs are armed with obsolete Trident C-4 missiles. Rather than refit them to carry Trident D-5, they're being rebuilt to carry a combination of cruise missiles and SEAL delivery systems. A key part is something I've been doing some work on recently, a mini-submarine called ASDS.

Surface ships, I'm not so sure of. The PC-1 Cyclone class had a SEAL delivery role but were ill-suited to the job and ended up orphans being hawked around the Navy in search of a role. The real reason for the DE conversions was that the US had vastly over-produced on ASW escort vessels and were looking for uses for surplus hulls. We don't have that situation now so we're unlikely to produce similar ships (although the Littoral Combat Ship amy end up as something similar).

Ripper
2003-Sep-12, 02:25 PM
Amphibs are the future of the Navy, though few are willing to admit it. There has not been a clash between major surface combatants since WWII, and most of those were carrier battles. The future is limited conflict in the littorals. Almost hal of the workd's population lives in cities on coastlines. Still, Amphibs do not get the attention they deserve in the Navy. I am not sure that translates into space warfare. Unless you are just going to do raids and bombard cities from orbit like they did in Dorsai, you are going to need landing forces, and ships designed to cary them.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-12, 02:47 PM
there can only be one Captain on a warship.

Actually, I don't think this is true. A local Star Trek convention invited the captain of the real USS Enterprise, and he said that there were actually three captains aboard the ship. I don't recall how the duties were distributed, however.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-12, 02:50 PM
They also added some weird fuzzyy blueprints ontop of everything.



The blueprints were there last year, they're just more pervasive and more obvious this year. I find both changes (the music and the graphics) annoying.

Stuart
2003-Sep-12, 03:38 PM
Amphibs are the future of the Navy, though few are willing to admit it. There has not been a clash between major surface combatants since WWII, and most of those were carrier battles. The future is limited conflict in the littorals. Almost half of the workd's population lives in cities on coastlines. Still, Amphibs do not get the attention they deserve in the Navy.

Tell me about it #-o I spent two years trying to persuade the designers to put a Mark 41 VLS and an Akcita self-defense system onto LPD-17 so the ships could look after themselves when faced with an unexpected attack. Kept getting the reply "Amphibs are cheap and disposable; they don't need heavy defenses" Kept trying to remind them that losing an amphib with a thousand Marines on board is not a viable concept. Won that one; LPD-17 is being built with space and weight reserved for what amounts to a mini-AEGIS.


I am not sure that translates into space warfare. Unless you are just going to do raids and bombard cities from orbit like they did in Dorsai, you are going to need landing forces, and ships designed to cary them.

Even with all the orbital pounding in the world, somebody is going to have to go down and seize ground. Thinking back on the current ST-E episode, it may be a clever way of explaining how Starfleet Ground forces became so eclipsed. Perhaps the envisaged arc is that there is growing conflict between the ground forces and the Starfleet ship security teams. With Starfleet's obsesion with exploring, the ground forces atrophy and are eventually "merged with" (read replaced by) the Red Shirts who become cannon fodder. Eventually, no ground forces. Interestingly


TNG Season 3, Ep# 49: "Ensigns of Command"

PICARD: Three weeks. Starfleet is profuse in their apologies, but it will still be three weeks.
RIKER: Until?
PICARD: Until the arrival of a colony transport ship equipped with dedicated personnel shuttles.
RIKER: We can't wait three weeks.
PICARD: The Sheliak must agree to extend our deadline ... if they plan to settle Tau Cygna Five two days from now...
RIKER: One of their ships must already be en route.

I don't think anything else shows more clearly just how contemptuous Starfleet is of anything that isn't a Starship. It highlights the Federation's lack of an organized ground army capable of launching offensive operations. If they had such an army, they would need troop transports in order to overcome transporter scramblers, interdictors, jammers, and similar technologies. Troop transports could be used to evacuate personnel just as easily as inserting them, so if Starfleet didn't see them as an option, it seems likely that Starfleet simply doesn't have any. Remember, by this point "The Federation" is a military dictatorship run by Starfleet.

Ripper
2003-Sep-12, 03:58 PM
Ah Stuart. I can always count on you for interesting postings.

There has long been a trend in thought that ground forces are less necessary. Recent history has again and again refuted this idea, yet it persists. The XO of an amphib I deployed on some years ago put it like this.

"Everyone talks about precision weapons. We want eficiency, cost effectiveness, and accuracy. We want no collateral damage. We want flexibility and recallability. No other ship in the Navy can do what this one can. They can launch planes, missiles and shells. We launch Marines."

The amphib community has come a long way. the Brisco County was one of the last LSTs in the active Navy. It was called "The Ship of Broken Dreams" because every officer on it was a washout form another pipeline. They had failed out of flight school, subs, surface warfare, or some other more desireable slot. It has changed a lot since ten, but amphibs are still the red-headed stepchild of the Navy.

Thanks in advance for getting the air defences for us. You may have saved my life sometime in the future.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-12, 06:56 PM
Ah ... but —

The "Xindi humanoid" was the guy on the planet — not necessarily the guy in the council, eh?
That would leave four of the five, but I am almost positive there were more than 5 in that room.

BA... did you rewind yer tape?

Put this to rest for us.

The Bad Astronomer
2003-Sep-12, 07:59 PM
This is a tv show based on concepts written by people who don't know a flying fig about the military.

Now, you don't know that for a fact. There is a team of writers working on the show, and some may have military experience. I don't know.

However, the thing to remember too is that a TV writer will not let a fact get in the way of a story. My friend on the Trek writing team is actually a scientist, with training as one. He was the science adviser for Trek for many years, but if the incorrect science made the plot go forward, he would be overridden. It's the way of things.

ToSeek
2003-Sep-12, 08:07 PM
Ah ... but —

The "Xindi humanoid" was the guy on the planet — not necessarily the guy in the council, eh?


The Xindi on the planet was named Kessick, I think, and is credited separately.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-12, 10:47 PM
Right... I've managed to get a copy of the episode...

1) T'Pols bits. Tucker and T'Pol have been having a 'will they/won't they?' subplot since day one. It's been used in countless shows, from Moonlighting to Friends. Or did we miss that?

2) Xindi DNA. Phlox had two Xindi samples. For all he knew, there was only one race of Xindi, not five. The DNA between these two species could indeed be very close, without the necessity of the other three species, which he didn't know about, having any common DNA at all. To Phlox, it's a mystery until Archer returns and, presumably, tell him about the five species thing.

3) Rank. Starfleet isn't Military. They may have ranks and weapons, but they're explorers. I think here we're seeing the start of situation where we find out the origins of the 24th century Starfleet that is there primarily for exploration and is occasionally asked to fight. Any Military personnel on a Starfleet vessel would be outranked by the 'native' crew, because it's their ship. The military are guests, at the disposal of and subordinate to the crew of Enterprise. In my classroom, I am subordinate to my Head Teacher. Any visiting military guests would be under my command, even if they were Majors in the USMC. It's my pond.

Finally...

Ooh, T'Pol.

AKONI
2003-Sep-13, 02:32 AM
Val Trottan

A flash of a scene such as they showed was fine, but I don't think they should show more. Not because he (nephew) would be stunned, but mainly because kids act on what they see... and the more we keep introducing children to this at a younger and younger age the more they want to experiment at a younger age (hopefully not five years of age).

It's actually a difficult subject only because what are the real answers in the sense of age, and what they should be told?

Though I definitely understand and agree with everything you wrote as well.

Ripper

Okay clear this up for me, because I did think the USMC received independence after their incredible actions in the Pacific during WWII (and they were incredible).

Gen. Peter Pace (USMC) is the Vice Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff. Does this mean that prior to the late 80's there were no members of the USMC on the JCS staff because they were subordinate to the Navy?

Also,... was there any change in the relationship between the Navy and the USMC during or right after WWII that might have caused the misinformation I read about regarding independence from the Navy?


Back to topic:

The Enterprise is deep in space now. The rules of this particular region of space are different, so the writers can now experiment and be a bit more imaginative, but how advanced are we back on Earth? And what sort of fleet does Star Fleet have in order to defend the Earth?

I'm asking because the council seems pretty afraid of a Human invasion in their territory. In fact, I was under the impression that they were just plain scared.

There are so many 9.11 over tones (which is good because TOS had a lot of current topics running through it) that I really want to see them kill the Xindi.

Ripper
2003-Sep-13, 05:00 PM
I will try to keep this brief, but since you asked.

The Commandant of the Marine Corps is on the JCS. Gen Pace, as the Vice Chairman is senior to him. This is unusual, but then there has only been a Marine on the JCS for a little over a decade. The JCS is not really part of the chain of command though. They directly advise the Secretary of Defense, bypassing the Sec. Nav., Sec. AF, and Sec. Army. One other unusual situation right now is that Gen Jones, the last Commandant (which is normally a final assignment before retirement) is now the Commanding General of European Command. There is a big story behind this, but I will not go into it here.

There were a few changes in the orginization of the military after WWII, but the Marines were fully subordinate to the Navy. The chain of command went Sec Nav, Chief of Naval Operations, then Commandant of the Marine Corps. The Commandant is now equal to the CNO and they both answer directly to the Sec Nav.

I hope that clears it up. If you are still confused let me know.

AKONI
2003-Sep-13, 06:02 PM
Thanks!

johnwitts
2003-Sep-14, 12:25 AM
The Enterprise is deep in space now. The rules of this particular region of space are different, so the writers can now experiment and be a bit more imaginative, but how advanced are we back on Earth? And what sort of fleet does Star Fleet have in order to defend the Earth?

I'm asking because the council seems pretty afraid of a Human invasion in their territory. In fact, I was under the impression that they were just plain scared.

There are so many 9.11 over tones (which is good because TOS had a lot of current topics running through it) that I really want to see them kill the Xindi.

The Xindi may fear an invasion from Earth because someone who is trying to stir up the timeline has told them so. We don't know what they've been told. A single ship, Enterprise, shows up and starts snooping around. They may have been told that it is the first of many, and they've no way to check it's the only ship of its kind so far developed. Remember, other people may be pulling the strings on both sides. The Xindi may turn out to be a race that are developing a terror weapon as a response to a percieved threat from outside. They've already had a planet destroyed, thay have an excuse to be more than a little jumpy...

Deciding to kill all the Xindi is plainly wrong until we find out their motives. They may be perfectly decent people who have been manipulated. If they have indeed been put up for the attack by manipulation from outside, then let's hope Archer and the crew find this out before going on the offensive. There are parallels to 9/11, but let's hope the Starfleet of the future shows a little more sense in its actions.

frenat
2003-Sep-14, 03:27 AM
Akoni

Perhaps you are thinking of the Air Force and the Army? During WWII, the Air Force was known as the Army Air Corp and was a part of the Army. Shortly after they split off and became their own branch.

Zamboni
2003-Sep-14, 03:45 AM
There are parallels to 9/11, but let's hope the Starfleet of the future shows a little more sense in its actions.

They just need better scanners... After all they ARE looking for the weapons of mass destruction (http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/) are they not?

Ripper
2003-Sep-14, 01:45 PM
Don't go into the politics. I will not remain silent if I get insulted by a bunch of left-wing airheads who know nothing about what we are doing over there. If you debate me on this subject you will loose.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-14, 10:09 PM
Don't go into the politics. I will not remain silent if I get insulted by a bunch of left-wing airheads who know nothing about what we are doing over there. If you debate me on this subject you will loose.

OK.The supreme correctness of everything the US does and says in the name of all us other lesser nations will not be questioned. Otherwise we'll pay the price.

frenat
2003-Sep-14, 10:19 PM
I for one am getting sick of those who complain about not finding WMDs yet. It has only been a few months. Iraq is a huge area. It has been said Iraq is about the size of California. On the other hand, bilogicals and chemical weapons can be stored in liter size containers. Give me a few months to hides a few liter bottles in California and see how long it takes you to find it.

Also, it did not get much publicity but a month or two ago (not sure how long exactly) they found quite a few jets buried in the sand. These were found in an area they had been through a few times already. The only reason anything was seen was the sand had shifted enough to see one tailfin. Tens of jets hidden for months in an area they were walking and driving in.

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Sep-14, 10:37 PM
I suppose this begs the question; why bury a jet? You can't use it that way.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-15, 12:09 AM
I for one am getting sick of those who complain about not finding WMDs yet. It has only been a few months. Iraq is a huge area. It has been said Iraq is about the size of California. On the other hand, bilogicals and chemical weapons can be stored in liter size containers. Give me a few months to hides a few liter bottles in California and see how long it takes you to find it.

Also, it did not get much publicity but a month or two ago (not sure how long exactly) they found quite a few jets buried in the sand. These were found in an area they had been through a few times already. The only reason anything was seen was the sand had shifted enough to see one tailfin. Tens of jets hidden for months in an area they were walking and driving in.

As far as I can see at the moment, the only country in the world who actually uses their weapons of mass destruction against other nations is the US.

I think I'll shut up now.

Ripper
2003-Sep-15, 12:12 AM
They were buried in sand with all of the intakes sealed. They would have required a little cleaning up, but they were still usable.

By the way, the UN said there was evidence, as did the British. The Brits still say it is there, and they have the best intelligence in the WORLD and always have. Other nations can only hope to have the Intell aparatus of the Brits. The Chem plants were truck mounted, and are most likely in Syria.

It is all academic now. Samman and his Baath party thugs were evil, and they needed killing. The operation was brilliantly executed if I do say so myself. I am proud to have done my part to destroy the Baath party and the Taliban. And I sleep very well at night.

The Supreme Canuck
2003-Sep-15, 12:26 AM
Oh. Well nobody told me they sealed the intakes. If they didn't... well, they'd have a few tonnes of scrap metal to sell.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-15, 12:58 AM
Ripper: Thank you for doing that. :-) I am glad my children will be safer for what you did. Thanks.


While i do disagree with why we went in in the first place, i do think you guys acted in the best manner possible and did a amazing job.


----------

Back on topic:

So what are the chances we will have another vulcan neurotreatment next episode.





More im portantly, did Spok give the treatment to Bones or Kirk ever? :-P

Donnie B.
2003-Sep-15, 01:25 AM
More importantly, did Spok give the treatment to Bones or Kirk ever? :-P
Well, Kirk did lose a brother in the "flying fried egg" episode, and a son in "Wrath of Khan" (or was it in "Search for Spock"?) so maybe he needed some Vulcan magic massage...

Invader Spleen
2003-Sep-15, 02:18 AM
More importantly, did Spok give the treatment to Bones or Kirk ever? :-P
Well, Kirk did lose a brother in the "flying fried egg" episode, and a son in "Wrath of Khan" (or was it in "Search for Spock"?) so maybe he needed some Vulcan magic massage...


And thats my cue to feel very disturbed

Zamboni
2003-Sep-15, 03:30 AM
@Ripper:
Aw come on it was a joke! You guys are no fun... First I got kicked out of the general board cuz I flamed (although really I was just contradicting him in a sarcastic way) some guy who said Galileo is gonna blow up the galaxy. Now I get flamed cuz I posted (more or less) a fact?

The NX-01 IS looking for a WMD... Personally I guess it's a deathstar sort of thing but you had to go and ruin the joke: "I will not remain silent if I get insulted by a bunch of left-wing airheads"

Who's insulting you? And who are you calling left-wing airheads? For your sake I hope you're taking about that guy from Texas. (heh heh heh :lol:)

DataCable
2003-Sep-15, 04:31 AM
They also added some weird fuzzyy blueprints ontop of everything.
The blueprints were there last year, they're just more pervasive and more obvious this year. I find both changes (the music and the graphics) annoying.
Actually, the visuals are unchanged, they might just seem different since they're running under music you're unused to hearing.

As to the music, yeah, it sucks. In fact, I'm starting an on-line petition DEMANDING that they change it back! \:D/?? [-X. :-({|=!! (8-[)

I think it might be using the instrumental track they've been running under the closing credits after the pilot (on the re-run broadcast only, the Wed. night run has those annoying promos and no music), but I never really payed much attention to it. The tempo change means the lyrics no longer sync with the visuals as they used to, and the whole title sequence actually runs a few seconds shorter than before.

AKONI
2003-Sep-15, 06:46 AM
Okay, my 9.11 coment started something, so I'm not going to add to it except to back Ripper up on one thing...

http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php

People can dislike the site, but they can't deny the quotes.

Ripper: I do think though I'd end up agreeing with you. A friend of mine requested to be sent over to work with Paul Bremer. He's a retired Army Ranger. God Bless him.

And God bless you for risking your neck for your country.


frenat: Yeah, I may have mistaken the Air Force for the Marines as I read the information about 10 years go.

I should re-read the book.



Back to Topic: I watched the repeat of the 1st episode. Yeah, the theme has a back beat and more of a rythm section now.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-15, 08:54 AM
Amphibs are the future of the Navy, though few are willing to admit it. There has not been a clash between major surface combatants since WWII, and most of those were carrier battles. The future is limited conflict in the littorals. Almost hal of the workd's population lives in cities on coastlines. Still, Amphibs do not get the attention they deserve in the Navy. I am not sure that translates into space warfare. Unless you are just going to do raids and bombard cities from orbit like they did in Dorsai, you are going to need landing forces, and ships designed to cary them.

In NATO the Royal Navy was tasked with the Western Approaches, this involved AA, AS and mine cleareance. That's why Surface to Surface offensive capability was limited to bolt on Exocet launchers up until recently.

In the Falklands we found we needed independant air cover and AAW that can travel with the fleet and guns for shore bombardment. Any naval force needs to be balanced, to emphasize 'Amphibs' at the expense of balance would be as risky as having a fleet of AA and ASW ships.

I can see why you would think it was important as you are a Marine.

Ripper
2003-Sep-15, 12:10 PM
You have made my point for me. In the Falklands the entire fleet was there to support the amphibious landings and operations ashore. One of the big problems with the US Navy right now is that is has very little shore bombardment capability. The biggest guns on a naval vessel today is a 5 incher., and there are very few of those. Air superiority is critical to any operation.

By the way, the French get a lot of flack for selling the Exocet to the Argentines. The fact is, the Argentines had only a few of them that were test samples, and they pulled their advisors out when the Argentines went into the Falklands.

The use of anti-ship has gotten even more advanced since the early Exocet. I myself was at the receiving end of a Seersucker just a few months ago. Thank goodness the Iraqis were incompetent.

Lets stay away from the Gulf War and related politics. To the rest of you it is all just a hot topic. To me it is very personal.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-15, 12:52 PM
One of the big problems with the US Navy right now is that is has very little shore bombardment capability. The biggest guns on a naval vessel today is a 5 incher.,

With a couple of big Carriers on hand it's not as important but the RN at the time had little fixed wing capacity.

I was making the pointthat some of the more specialised ships like the Type 22 Frigate was all missile and had no gun at all. Since the Falklands all new designs of RN ship have a 4.5 inch.

Ripper
2003-Sep-15, 02:31 PM
I was never suggesting that only amphibs had relevance. Air superiority is critical. The thing is, as good as air support is, having maval guns ready to fire is much quicker. We do not have any artillery when we first hit the beach. We would most likely have nothing bigger than 60mm mortars.

Star Fleet needs to think about this, since I do not think they want to bombard cities with photon torpedos. I do understand the idea of limited war.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-15, 02:37 PM
I was never suggesting that only amphibs had relevance. Air superiority is critical. The thing is, as good as air support is, having maval guns ready to fire is much quicker. We do not have any artillery when we first hit the beach. We would most likely have nothing bigger than 60mm mortars.

Star Fleet needs to think about this, since I do not think they want to bombard cities with photon torpedos. I do understand the idea of limited war.

For a good take on 'Future War' look at old (1980s) issues of 2000AD comic.

There was a story called 'Rogue Trooper' drawn by Cam kennedy, it had some cool hardware for bombardment from orbit.

'Steel Rain' was a fave, no warhead and no need to 'fire' it . just let gravity do the work.

gethen
2003-Sep-15, 03:38 PM
...Lets stay away from the Gulf War and related politics. To the rest of you it is all just a hot topic. To me it is very personal.
More importantly, one thread has already been locked because of political discussions, and the BA might do the same here.
Back OT: I found it interesting that a Vulcan, member of a culture based on logic and the total control of animal urges, would invite a fellow officer into her quarters wearing an outfit that left just about nothing to the imagination. I think she's being contaminated by repeated contact with humans and isolation from her own people. :wink:
Do you think she got that outfit on Vulcan?

ToSeek
2003-Sep-15, 04:16 PM
They also added some weird fuzzyy blueprints ontop of everything.
The blueprints were there last year, they're just more pervasive and more obvious this year. I find both changes (the music and the graphics) annoying.
Actually, the visuals are unchanged, they might just seem different since they're running under music you're unused to hearing.



Could be, but it seemed that the graphics were more noticeable in a couple of places than they were last year. Hard to say without watching both title sequences in succession.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-15, 07:30 PM
[quote=Ripper]
Back OT: I found it interesting that a Vulcan, member of a culture based on logic and the total control of animal urges, would invite a fellow officer into her quarters wearing an outfit that left just about nothing to the imagination. I think she's being contaminated by repeated contact with humans and isolation from her own people. :wink:
Do you think she got that outfit on Vulcan?

I suggest here that she used a totally logical approach. She devised a sure fire way to keep Trip in her cabin and to accept the 'treatment'. Totally logical.

Ripper
2003-Sep-15, 08:14 PM
I didn't say that.
You have a good point though. Further, I do not see any inconsistancy in the Vulcans having such a treatment. Remember, Vulcans do have emotions. In fact, their emotions are more intense than those of humans. They have just learned to control it. I suppose out of necessity. The relaxation technique is, therefore, congruent.

I have always envied the Vulcans.

gethen
2003-Sep-15, 09:08 PM
I suggest here that she used a totally logical approach. She devised a sure fire way to keep Trip in her cabin and to accept the 'treatment'. Totally logical.

O.K. I guess I'll buy that. So Vulcans are also pretty cynical, eh?

johnwitts
2003-Sep-15, 11:13 PM
I suggest here that she used a totally logical approach. She devised a sure fire way to keep Trip in her cabin and to accept the 'treatment'. Totally logical.

O.K. I guess I'll buy that. So Vulcans are also pretty cynical, eh?

If you were reluctant to try out the treatment, wouldn't T'Pol taking her top off and asking you to 'press here, very hard' help in some small way to overcome that reluctance? I'm surprised we saw either of them again during the rest of the episode. Or the season.

gethen
2003-Sep-16, 12:35 AM
Uh, johnwitts, this is gethen speaking. I would not be particularly tempted by T'Pol in the scanty outfit. Wrong set of chromosomes. :wink:
Side issue: I'm a bit disappointed because for quite a while I thought her name was T'Pao--from TOS--the hallowed ambassador to the federation, and we were seeing where she got her start. I guess though that the timing was all wrong. :oops: Would have been a great hook anyway.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-16, 08:06 AM
snip

By the way, the UN said there was evidence, as did the British. The Brits still say it is there, and they have the best intelligence in the WORLD and always have. Other nations can only hope to have the Intell aparatus of the Brits. The Chem plants were truck mounted, and are most likely in Syria.



Well, as 'C' the controller of MI6 has just been giving evidence in the Hutton enquiry to the effect that it could all be lies and there may be no WMB I wouldn't put much faith in British Intelligence.

tracer
2003-Sep-16, 09:34 PM
Actually, the visuals are unchanged, they might just seem different since they're running under music you're unused to hearing.
Somewhere sometime, someone did a study in which they showed the exact same computer-generated graphics sequence to two groups of people -- the frist group just saw the graphics, while the second group saw the graphics with impressive music in the background.

The members of the second group overwhelmingly rated the visual effect of the graphics more highly than did the first group.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-17, 04:21 PM
To kick the geek factor up a few notches, let's remember — in dealing with the Vulcans here — that the race isn't that far along in their choice to shirk off emotions as the Vulcans in the other series were. Remember, this is a prequel.
Even the dreaded B&B spoke on this early on by saying that the Vulcans in Enterprise would be more emotional than, say... Spock, since they are still dealing with their own changes in attitudes.
I don't know how factual that is ... depending on whatever the previous timeline stated the Vulcans changed ... but it makes sense coming from B&B — as nothing that once "was" is no more in their eyes.
They like to rewrite the entire stream as they go along.

I still stand by my "future time, future morals" argument, however.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-17, 05:36 PM
Isn't it only like 100 years before TOS? I don't think a humungous change in vulcan culture would happen in that time.

Glom
2003-Sep-17, 05:38 PM
If the writers are smart, there will be something spectacular which changes the Vulcan attitude considerably (but not totally, remember Solok 'Take Me Out to the Holosuite [DS9]). That's of course if they're smart.

tracer
2003-Sep-17, 06:41 PM
To kick the geek factor up a few notches, let's remember — in dealing with the Vulcans here — that the race isn't that far along in their choice to shirk off emotions as the Vulcans in the other series were. Remember, this is a prequel.
Even the dreaded B&B spoke on this early on by saying that the Vulcans in Enterprise would be more emotional than, say... Spock, since they are still dealing with their own changes in attitudes.
That's ridiculous. Surak was supposed to have come along, what, two thousand years before ST:TOS?

Glom
2003-Sep-17, 06:56 PM
What do B&B know about Trek? They're not fans.

Alan
2003-Sep-17, 08:22 PM
To kick the geek factor up a few notches, let's remember — in dealing with the Vulcans here — that the race isn't that far along in their choice to shirk off emotions as the Vulcans in the other series were. Remember, this is a prequel.
Even the dreaded B&B spoke on this early on by saying that the Vulcans in Enterprise would be more emotional than, say... Spock, since they are still dealing with their own changes in attitudes.
That's ridiculous. Surak was supposed to have come along, what, two thousand years before ST:TOS?

But that could be Vulcan years which could be only 20 Human years - according to B&B.

Prior to B&B's Enterprise, I thought the timeline was Cochrane invents Warp Drive and encounters the Vulcans who are exploring in STL ships - as they are longer-lived than humans. Together they build FTL Warp Drive ships and begin to explore the galaxy eventually expanding the Earth's space agency into the Federation by including other races.

With B&B's Enterprise we learn that Earth is the about the most retarded planet (both in technology and social development) in the galaxy with the Vulcans as caretakers to prevent the dumb humans from making any stupid mistakes in dealing with the more advanced races out there who really seem to want nothing to do with Earth even though this vast intergalatic civilization is mere hours away at a measly Warp 5, a speed exceeded by everyone else so far encountered by Enterprise. Everyone else has already been there before them, out of two years, I can only remember a couple of shows where they end up on a planet with aliens that do not have space travel and all of those that do, have better space technology than Enterprise with Trip able to understand and repair them all. Why he isn't put in charge of research and design of a Warp 6 or better drive in a shipyard on Earth, I will never understand since he obviously knows exactly how they work. Somehow this backwards, ignorant and ignored planet will become the leader by the time of ST:TOS and a menace to everyone in the Delta Quadrant (or whatever) in 400 years and an obstacle to others in their grab for power after that. Unfortunately nothing in this show explains this, and I expect it never will.

Either that or this vast intergalactic civilization that already exists is secretly setting up Earth to become its leader and sacrifical goat just in case some menace appears from the void to destroy the headquarters planet. Wouldn't that be logical? How many times has Earth been threatened and why wouldn't any other race be willing to let Earth take the risks if all they need to do is pretend that Earth is in charge?

After the standard 7 year run for a post ST:TOS series I would not be suprised to see as the last scene, Porthos licking Archers face as he wakes up. Archer pets him, smiles and says "Boy, today's the big day, we take the Enterprise out of space dock for its maiden flight." He pauses, "You know, I had the strangest dream about what is going to happen." Fade to black.

Val Trottan
2003-Sep-17, 09:06 PM
Yo Tracer...

Cool it. I'm not writing this stuff. I distinctly remember them (B&B or whomever wrote the press release) saying this right before Enterprise came out two years ago.

That's why the Vulcans are coming across a tad overbearing and arrogant in this series — despite whatever the previous timeline may have set up.

Complain to them for getting it wrong.

Glom
2003-Sep-18, 09:39 AM
If the idea was for Archer to earn respect for the Vulcans throughout the series, then good on them. However, in order for Archer to earn their respect, he'd have to become respectable. But the writers keep on writing scripts that make Archer look irresponsible and cavalier.

AKONI
2003-Sep-18, 05:53 PM
Somehow this backwards, ignorant and ignored planet will become the leader by the time of ST:TOS and a menace to everyone in the Delta Quadrant (or whatever) in 400 years and an obstacle to others in their grab for power after that. Unfortunately nothing in this show explains this, and I expect it never will.


This makes perfect sense when one looks at the world we live in. In Europe a diplomat was anything but pleased to be sent to the USA in the early 1800's. We were viewed as an ignorant, brutal people, and in less than 200 years we came to lead the world in technology.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-18, 09:35 PM
AKONI: you are making a big mistake in that sentance.

Technological skill has nuthing to do with being civalized. This is not ment to be political, it is a matter of fact. Just because some thrid world coun try does not have nukes and PDA's does not mean they are not as culturally "advanced" as we are.

Culturally some places are better in their treatment of outsiders and racial subgroups than we are any day. It is just a matter of your point of view.

Glom
2003-Sep-19, 12:04 PM
Prior to B&B's Enterprise, I thought the timeline was Cochrane invents Warp Drive and encounters the Vulcans who are exploring in STL ships - as they are longer-lived than humans. Together they build FTL Warp Drive ships and begin to explore the galaxy eventually expanding the Earth's space agency into the Federation by including other races.

That was the impression given in 'Metamorphosis' [TOS]. It's actually brilliant. Think about Classic and early NextGen. How many of the alien races actually were clearly established to be warp capable? Not as many as you might think. The Ferengi, for one, were clearly established ('Little Green Men' [DS9]) to have bought warp technology rather than developed it themselves.

Wouldn't it have been good if the galaxy that Enterprise explored was more primitive? They got all nicey and started giving warp drive to a load of people, who in turn gave it to a load more and this caused a few problems which meant that the Prime Directive was established to prevent a similar thing happening again. It would also fit with the events of 'Friendship One' [VOY] where Earth was clearly eager to share stuff early on but learnt that it was not really a good thing at some point and hence the Prime Directive. What caused that to be made?

AKONI
2003-Sep-22, 08:28 PM
Somehow this backwards, ignorant and ignored planet will become the leader by the time of ST:TOS and a menace to everyone in the Delta Quadrant



Technological skill has nuthing to do with being civalized. This is not ment to be political, it is a matter of fact. Just because some thrid world coun try does not have nukes and PDA's does not mean they are not as culturally "advanced" as we are.

Culturally some places are better in their treatment of outsiders and racial subgroups than we are any day. It is just a matter of your point of view.

WE were looked at as being culturally backwards by the European powers and within 200 years we became the most advanced. In fact, within just 100 years we had the strongest economy.

What I am trying to point out is it's not really such a long shot that in the ST universe the Earth, which started out so far behind, would eventually become the leader.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-22, 09:06 PM
Somehow this backwards, ignorant and ignored planet will become the leader by the time of ST:TOS and a menace to everyone in the Delta Quadrant



Technological skill has nuthing to do with being civalized. This is not ment to be political, it is a matter of fact. Just because some thrid world coun try does not have nukes and PDA's does not mean they are not as culturally "advanced" as we are.

Culturally some places are better in their treatment of outsiders and racial subgroups than we are any day. It is just a matter of your point of view.

WE were looked at as being culturally backwards by the European powers and within 200 years we became the most advanced. In fact, within just 100 years we had the strongest economy.

What I am trying to point out is it's not really such a long shot that in the ST universe the Earth, which started out so far behind, would eventually become the leader.

Actually, we Europeans still think you're culturally backwards... Technology does not equal culture.

AKONI
2003-Sep-23, 03:37 AM
:P

See??? I was right!!! 8)


Now I'll just bite my tongue and not thank you for producing guys like Hitler.

Ohhhhhh,.. bad AKONI!!!!

Bad AKONI!!!

:lol:

captain swoop
2003-Sep-23, 10:10 AM
:P

See??? I was right!!! 8)


Now I'll just bite my tongue and not thank you for producing guys like Hitler.

Ohhhhhh,.. bad AKONI!!!!

Bad AKONI!!!

:lol:

And we thank you for L Ron, Baywatch, Nashville, Monster Trucks, Baseball caps, Macdonalds, Disney Europe, Jim Carey, MTV, Happy Days, The A Team, Tom Cruise and Tom Green.

Ripper
2003-Sep-23, 11:20 AM
I will not hold it against you. Clearly you have an uncontrolable urge to bash America any chance you get. Deep seated envy and an inferiority complex I suppose.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-23, 01:11 PM
I will not hold it against you. Clearly you have an uncontrolable urge to bash America any chance you get. Deep seated envy and an inferiority complex I suppose.

Not so, I like America and Americans, I hate to see US bashing for the sake of it which happens a lot in the British media. Our middle classes seem to dislike the USA by default but they sneer at everything if it doesn't holiday in Tuscany and shop in John Lewis. I just don't like everything. I can give you an equaly long list of things I don't like about the UK, more so in fact as i can see them first hand and not filtered through the lens of the media which is a Europeans primary contact with the USA, as your is with Europe.

Alan
2003-Sep-23, 02:55 PM
What I am trying to point out is it's not really such a long shot that in the ST universe the Earth, which started out so far behind, would eventually become the leader.

Which, if Enterprise provided some reason, some story, a plot, anything, that built up to this happening, that would be fine, instead we get Voyager II, the rejected scripts. As (spoiler) we learned in last week's episode with the Death Star, the pirate's comment that once you enter the Expanse, you can't get back. They will probably defeat the Xindi this season somehow (most likely by flashing T'Pol's boobs at the council as a distraction) then have to spend the next season or seasons trying to get home, lost in uncharted regions of space, encountering new and different, sometimes hostile alien races.

B&B's lack of knowledge - which they boast about - of ST:TOS and statements along the lines that they are making up the so-called story arc as they go along doesn't give me much hope that there is any well thought out direction of Enterprise that will end up with Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Instead I expect some deus ex machine, Admiral Archer traveling back in time, pull it out of their a**, final episode to attempt to end the series with some sort of explanation, reset button or it was all a dream type of conclusion with absolutely nothing leading up to it in prior episodes.

Enterprise has always seemed to me to be set in the same time as ST:NG, DS9 & Voyager, just off on the fringes of the Federation, it has never seemed to be set prior to ST:TOS.

Maybe the problem is that a large number of people have not seen TOS, at a local college club I was discussing Enterprise with some of the students and to several of them ST:TNG *is* the first Star Trek so to them Enterprise isn't as off to them as it is to some of us old-timers.

Ripper
2003-Sep-23, 06:27 PM
I guess American movies and TV have gone down hill in the last couple of decades. That is why I mostly watch the Discovery channel et. al.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-23, 07:35 PM
I will not hold it against you. Clearly you have an uncontrolable urge to bash America any chance you get. Deep seated envy and an inferiority complex I suppose.

Not envy. And I don't bash America any chance I get, thank you. Who is it who has been defending the honour of NASA's Moon landings all these years? Just because I say that America lacks a certain level of culture that does not mean I do not like the place. I'd never want to live there, but that doesn't mean it's a bad place. It just narks me sometimes when America seems to think itself the be all and end all of everything that's good. No one place is superior to another, in my opinion. We all have to live on the same planet. Any time a country claims superiority over others, it is bound to cause trouble. That is what I sometimes object to.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-23, 10:38 PM
I will not hold it against you. Clearly you have an uncontrolable urge to bash America any chance you get. Deep seated envy and an inferiority complex I suppose.

Not envy. And I don't bash America any chance I get, thank you. Who is it who has been defending the honour of NASA's Moon landings all these years? Just because I say that America lacks a certain level of culture that does not mean I do not like the place. I'd never want to live there, but that doesn't mean it's a bad place. It just narks me sometimes when America seems to think itself the be all and end all of everything that's good. No one place is superior to another, in my opinion. We all have to live on the same planet. Any time a country claims superiority over others, it is bound to cause trouble. That is what I sometimes object to.


:-D great post john. My sentiments exactly. :-)




Now werent we talking about enterprise here?

Alan: i also think they will defeat the Xindi this season and somehow have to find a way home. Hopefully the super weapon of the xindi is a big time machine that transports everyone back in time to the begining of the first season with technology they should have at that time period and somehow magically puts plots into b&b desk.



Now one way i think would of been very interesting and fun is if several episodes of the show were written by the fans. If i remeber right voyager tried this. The best of the script writers could be contracted to qwrite all of the scripts for the show. Hopefully this will add some more trek into the show and continuity too.

johnwitts
2003-Sep-23, 10:46 PM
I think it would be better if the crew of Enterprise found out that the Xindi had nothing to do with the probe. Archer has no proof anyway, except the say so of some future guy. Maybe future guy is the problem and just wants to stir things up. I say the Humans and Xindi should unite to face their common foe, and that the Xindi and Humans become the first to establish the UFP.

Why do we need to kick the Xindi's collective arses? Wouldn't the first course of action be to ask them to not build another nasty weapon? To find out why they launched the first? To negotiate? Does this make sense to anyone else but me?

PS. Thanks Humphrey. It's not just me then...

pi is exactly 3
2003-Sep-23, 11:47 PM
I am confused. I saw the episode that involved Enterprise entering the giant sphere of that alien race i cant think the name of. Was that the season premere? I thought it was. As for T'pol it's kind of a star trek thing to have some sexy alien. It's in all the series' (although DS9 doesn't seem to have as much. All in all it doesn't matter.

pi is exactly 3
2003-Sep-24, 12:15 AM
And how about the themesong. That just crosses the line. I would always sing along with it and now I just leave the room.

pi is exactly 3
2003-Sep-24, 12:23 AM
And what does TA stand for. Is it refering to T'pals curves?

Humphrey
2003-Sep-24, 01:42 AM
Pi: Nope that was the second episode of this season.

T&A stands for terms for breasts and butt.

pi is exactly 3
2003-Sep-24, 11:16 AM
Argg. thats the last time I watch city TV. They told me it was the premiere

Is there any chanel out there that is still playing it? Maybe space?

Humphrey
2003-Sep-24, 04:47 PM
Well UPN in the states is.

captain swoop
2003-Sep-26, 10:43 AM
How do they get rid of the Xindi?

they don't exist in Kirks time, or Picards.

Humphrey
2003-Sep-26, 02:03 PM
The latest episode broke every trek law imaginable, and also every law of biology to the extreme.

Not to mention taking the "instant effect" syndrom trek has to the extreme. I mean at least it took some time for the captain in Voyager to turn into a weasel in that one episode.

R.A.F.
2003-Sep-27, 02:20 PM
The latest episode broke every trek law imaginable, and also every law of biology to the extreme.

The story was just plain crappy.
But that's nothing compared to next weeks show...

"Alien sex slave seduces entire crew"! (Sounds like something one would read in the national inquirer)

It appears it's going to be a direct rip-off of 2 "classic" Star Trek episodes. "Mudd's Women"...Where a drug makes women more attractive to men, and the male crew (and Kirk) go gaga. The second is "Elaan of Troyus"...Where an alien woman's tears cause just Kirk to go gaga.

"Enterprise's" main plot difference is that everyone in the crew is effected. (appearently...I'll reserve final judgement till I actually see the show. :)

It would be nice if the writers could come up with something new, and not reminds us of previous shows. I wonder if that's too much to ask?

Humphrey
2003-Sep-27, 08:12 PM
I would just ask that they write a script for a show instead of trying to wing it like they obviously do.