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Durakken
2008-May-30, 04:33 PM
I think I got the most concise title i could think of right >.> Not positive though.

A quick back-story of what I'm trying to accomplish with the information I am seeking.

I have plans on creating a comic/game that has aliens that have evolved from other planets in the solar system and even though I know this is fairly impossible I am trying to come up with the most accurate depiction of what a sentient creature might be like if it evolved on these other planets.

Obviously I am also trying to go for as close to humanoid as possible but considering some facts it's not much of a problem whether they look completely humanoid or not.

The planets that I will have life evolve on are Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto (I know not a planet anymore) and thinking about using those two moons that everyone says are likely candidates for life to evolve on.

Now to start with the actual questions...I'll label them so they are easier to refer back to when answering.


#1. Is there any place where I can get relatively good maps on any of these planets I've heard that Mars and Venus have been mapped quite a bit?

#2. How might going from one of these planets to another or even constant living in space effect age, strenghth, etc?

Venus Questions---
I've not thought much about venus and it doesn't play a major role, but i still ask just because info is good.

v1. I know that Venus is covered in Sulferic clouds and is extremely pressurized. Is there any material that could survive in such conditions for very long? I have a notion that perhaps a sort of living crystal that can constantly regenerate, but I'd like to know what other options I could have.

v2. Considering that the atmosphere from what I know of is incredibly hard to see through how would sound travel? Might it be like the ocean?

v3. Is there anything that could harm the atmosphere, as in igniting the atmosphere like many say could happen here at a certain degree of heat.

Mars Questions----
One of the 2 major thought of planets. Pretty much what i have decided about this race is that they will be primarily a warrior class, worship the sun, and live underground.

m1. These creatures would be exposed to heavy radiation and sand storms. I was thinking that many of their orifices might be sealed or have a covering like some creature here have a protective covering over their eyes. I then got to thinking that perhaps they might have some sort of natural radiation protection, but i couldn't think of anything other than magnetic field and i really don't know how that might that interact if all of them have magnetic fields...so what can help to block radiation?

m2. Considering the size of Mars and it's known resources, how many human sized creatures might it be able to accommodate without much problem? If I recall correctly it's like 1/3 the size of the earth and has less than a fourth the amount of "possible" water Would a population of 1 billion be a bit much?

m3. Are there any spots on mars which would make good "secret" entrances to their underground cities?

Jupiter----
I haven't thought of anything for...mainly because thinking of the next one...

Saturn----
My idea for a Saturn creature is that there are very large, state sized creatures using the atmosphere as a way to get energy and maintain altitude.They live for hundreds of thousands of years and in their life time creatures evolve on their backs which come to be the sentient race and creates cities on these flying creatures.

s1. What might be a good altitude for these "cloud eater" creatures to maintain? I wish them to not be seeable from passing stuff but pretty high up to lower the gravity.

s2. Would be possible for this cloud eater creature to produce an atmosphere above them that is earthlike with the chemicals in the Saturn atmosphere?

s3. Is there anything these creatures could hang on to in the atmosphere as to say anchor itself to a position?

Pluto---
I really have no clue about pluto and how it might get life on it. I was thinking that perhaps the gap between ploto and charon? (is that the name of it's moon?) would be a good spot but i don't know what to ask that would help with the problems with it.


Any help would be most appreciated and anything that you might be able to add or ask me about that may help you answer or me get the answer to these questions would be really appreciated and I thank who ever helps in advance

01101001
2008-May-30, 04:40 PM
#1. Is there any place where I can get relatively good maps on any of these planets I've heard that Mars and Venus have been mapped quite a bit?

This seems like a good place to start (and there are many links to other sources provided): USGS Astrogeology Map-a-planet (http://www.mapaplanet.org/)

Living crystals and the rest, I can't help you with. When the hypotheticals get that wild, I can only go with: sure, fine, whatever.

Edit: Oh, first post. Welcome to BAUT Forum!

Durakken
2008-May-31, 12:35 PM
It not wild >.> Well living crystal is but that's why I'm not asking about how living crystals would work.

I'm asking questions that should have some answers in practical science. I jsut am having a hard time locating them.

for example the answer to v2 should have been found from that mapping thing NASA did where they used some sort of echolocation to map venus terrain a bit. m1 is known as it's asking what protect against radiation and what effect would roughly human-sized multiple magnetic fields have on each other.

The questions are not out there...just the premise of that these things would evolve is. The only reason I can't answer them is cuz I'm not a physicist nor am I an astronomer or biologist so I can only ask and look for info.

Cougar
2008-May-31, 04:34 PM
Why not develop a genetic algorithm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm) and let the creatures evolve as they may? ;)

01101001
2008-May-31, 06:17 PM
It not wild >.> Well living crystal is but that's why I'm not asking about how living crystals would work..

Well, I encountered the living crystals in the first questions after the much less wild map question, and they made my thoughts want to visit other topics.

I'll gladly stipulate that some of your following questions do not stretch the hypothetical quite so much. They're just not the sort of speculation I personally enjoy. Maybe some other members will help. Good luck.

blueshift
2008-May-31, 06:19 PM
Take this with a grain of salt but it might be worth considering..

On board the Columbia moss was taken along with sunflowers to see the effect of microgravity on them. Moss has been known to react to the gravitational field inside of caves by growing upward along walls and onto the inner roofs of caves. Sunflowers, on the other hand have a Fibonnaci sequence ( a spiral pattern) in their florets here on the ground.

What is interesting is that in microgravity, the moss develope a spiral pattern while the sunflowers lose their spiral pattern and reshape as if they are moss. Topology dictates what limits there are to shape changes, what they can truncate or stellate into. Now molecules are very shape-oriented in their changes and stabilities and you might wonder if our planet, while keeping the same mass but with a much larger diameter, would have evolution take an entirely different path than the one it did.

Instead of confining yourself to the solar system, you could take your game out into some exoplanet that is earthlike, but either much larger or smaller with much different values of g on its surface. The physics here is pretty tightly known to some extents although you could cook up something about Titan and Europa or one of the moons on Saturn where water showers are being seen spouting up like volcanoes. (I could be wrong about that last one..It could be methane gases but I think it is on the moon Enceladus.)

Also, the reaction of the astronauts bodies to microgravity might reveal why a muscular system like ours might not evolve with other values of g. Ours might be tightly tied to the precise amount of g, 9.8 m/S^2 to take the form we have along with all the other mammals and vegetation.

Who knows? Play with it a while and good luck.

Durakken
2008-May-31, 06:42 PM
blueshift, there are other planets that will be in this, but i definitely wants sentient species from these planets and i prefer to ask and see what things i can incorporate from real science into this as there are quite a bit of other things that fall along the side of not possible.

I'm one of those people that go, "Okay magic isn't real here, but if it were real it would have rules and abide by some type of physics so what would those physics for getting what i want out of it without going too far from real physics"

formulaterp
2008-May-31, 08:14 PM
v1. I know that Venus is covered in Sulferic clouds and is extremely pressurized. Is there any material that could survive in such conditions for very long?

v2. Considering that the atmosphere from what I know of is incredibly hard to see through how would sound travel? Might it be like the ocean?

v3. Is there anything that could harm the atmosphere, as in igniting the atmosphere like many say could happen here at a certain degree of heat.

m1. These creatures would be exposed to heavy radiation and sand storms. ...so what can help to block radiation?

m2. Considering the size of Mars and it's known resources, ... Would a population of 1 billion be a bit much?

m3. Are there any spots on mars which would make good "secret" entrances to their underground cities?

s1. What might be a good altitude for these "cloud eater" creatures to maintain?

s2. Would be possible for this cloud eater creature to produce an atmosphere above them that is earthlike with the chemicals in the Saturn atmosphere?

s3. Is there anything these creatures could hang on to in the atmosphere as to say anchor itself to a position?

While I think you should just pick a hypothetical extrasolar planetary system which suits your needs, I'll throw out a few ideas anyway. Can't hurt.

v1. I think you're pretty much stuck with rock or crystals.

v2. Sound would travel just fine, faster than here on earth due to the greater density. It's not nearly like an ocean. At the surface the density is only about 6-7% of that of water.

v3. Harm the atmosphere how? Considering how much CO2 and how little(if any) 02 exists, I doubt I'd be too concerned with spontaneous ignition.

m1. Skin. Really thick skin. Like scales or armor. Or your creatures can have some sort of DNA analogue which can quickly repair itself and avoid harmful mutation. Or perhaps convert damaged cells into skin/armor and regenerate new cells.

m2. Depends on the resources. If we are only talking about water, how much water do we really use? We mostly rely on freshwater, which only makes up a small fraction of the total. You might have an issue of how to utilize it though, since most of the water is in the form of ice, perhaps permanently frozen underground. There might be more than enough for billions, but if you can't get to it ....

m3. I would advise building secret entrances somewhere within the vicinity of your cities. But you haven't told me where they are. I guess that's part of the secret. How about extinct volcanoes? There might be large cavities where you might build your cities, with empty lava tubes as entrances.

s1. The altitude would depend on the density of your air creatures and the surrounding atmosphere, unless you have some means of propulsion, or an ability to alter your density.

s2. The atmosphere of Saturn is mostly H and He, I dunno maybe some methane, ammonia etc. How are you gonna convert that into a N2/O2 mix like we have on earth? Some serious chemistry problems here.

s3. You might be able to "anchor" yourself to certain parts of the atmosphere. Take Jupiter's cloud bands for example. Storms are generally trapped at certain latitudes in between cloud bands. You would probably want to stay out of the boundary layer and avoid the mega-hurricane winds.

cran
2008-May-31, 10:39 PM
The planets that I will have life evolve on are Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto (I know not a planet anymore) and thinking about using those two moons that everyone says are likely candidates for life to evolve on.

Now to start with the actual questions...I'll label them so they are easier to refer back to when answering...

#2. How might going from one of these planets to another or even constant living in space effect age, strenghth, etc?
from Earthly experience, it seems the answer is "adversely" ...
for your characters, you might want to consider their adaptability or resilience to changes in ambient pressure, temperature, and the influence of gravity - or you will need to devise ways of compensating for any shortfall ...


Venus Questions---
I've not thought much about venus and it doesn't play a major role, but i still ask just because info is good.

v1. I know that Venus is covered in Sulferic clouds and is extremely pressurized. Is there any material that could survive in such conditions for very long? I have a notion that perhaps a sort of living crystal that can constantly regenerate, but I'd like to know what other options I could have.if you're stuck on solid beings, then as already mentioned, stable minerals - how to make them sentient is a challenge ...

or, look at non-solids - intelligent lead puddles, or sentient static charges (the "electric dragons of Venus", isn't that what the Russians called them?)


v2. Considering that the atmosphere from what I know of is incredibly hard to see through how would sound travel? Might it be like the ocean? sound will travel faster (and perhaps further than in Earth's atmosphere, though not as fast as in the oceans) ... however, separating out the signal from the noise might be difficult (like talking in a storm or a crowded cocktail party) ...


v3. Is there anything that could harm the atmosphere, as in igniting the atmosphere like many say could happen here at a certain degree of heat. well, dropping in a few dozen atmospheres of oxygen might upset the locals, and improve its chances of igniting ...


Mars Questions----
One of the 2 major thought of planets. Pretty much what i have decided about this race is that they will be primarily a warrior class, worship the sun, and live underground.

m1. These creatures would be exposed to heavy radiation and sand storms. I was thinking that many of their orifices might be sealed or have a covering like some creature here have a protective covering over their eyes. I then got to thinking that perhaps they might have some sort of natural radiation protection, but i couldn't think of anything other than magnetic field and i really don't know how that might that interact if all of them have magnetic fields...so what can help to block radiation? why bother? why not make the worrisome radiation a source of food/energy instead?


m2. Considering the size of Mars and it's known resources, how many human sized creatures might it be able to accommodate without much problem? If I recall correctly it's like 1/3 the size of the earth and has less than a fourth the amount of "possible" water Would a population of 1 billion be a bit much? possibly not, as far as the water is concerned - it depends quite a bit on how humanoid you want them to be - ie, are they necessarily water-based?

The biggest issue with a population of 1 billion, if you want to keep them out of sight, might be how to depress their energy signature - what sort of technology and waste energy do they produce?


m3. Are there any spots on mars which would make good "secret" entrances to their underground cities? plenty ... depending a bit on how large the entrances need to be ... but lots of potential within the chasms ...



Saturn----
My idea for a Saturn creature is that there are very large, state sized creatures using the atmosphere as a way to get energy and maintain altitude.They live for hundreds of thousands of years and in their life time creatures evolve on their backs which come to be the sentient race and creates cities on these flying creatures.

s1. What might be a good altitude for these "cloud eater" creatures to maintain? I wish them to not be seeable from passing stuff but pretty high up to lower the gravity. I think pressure is the issue here, rather than the gravity ... and your creatures could be analogues to giant jellyfish ...


s2. Would be possible for this cloud eater creature to produce an atmosphere above them that is earthlike with the chemicals in the Saturn atmosphere? very tricky, I would think, unless they are living fusion reactors ... and then they would have to continuously replenish (excrete) from their upper surfaces, because the gases and compounds you want are heavier than the bulk atmosphere, so they will tend to flow over the upper surfaces and fall away to the core ...


s3. Is there anything these creatures could hang on to in the atmosphere as to say anchor itself to a position? to an altitude, yes (natural ballast/pressure equivalence) ... to a latitude, probably ... to a longtitude, probably not ...



Pluto---
I really have no clue about pluto and how it might get life on it. I was thinking that perhaps the gap between ploto and charon? (is that the name of it's moon?) would be a good spot but i don't know what to ask that would help with the problems with it. you probably don't want any form of life that relies upon solar energy or liquid water ...

AndreasJ
2008-May-31, 10:51 PM
Given that Saturn's atmosphere is mostly hydrogen gas, getting the cloud critters to float is going to be tricky. They'll have to be either pure hydrogen and very little else, or living hot air balloons. Any bubbles or whatever with human-breathable gas would have to be compensated by much larger volumes of lighter-than-local-air gasses.

mugaliens
2008-Jun-01, 11:33 AM
I have plans on creating a comic/game that has aliens that have evolved from other planets in the solar system and even though I know this is fairly impossible I am trying to come up with the most accurate depiction of what a sentient creature might be like if it evolved on these other planets.

We haven't the slightest idea, yet as to whether this is impossible or not. There may yet be alien life in our own solar system.


Obviously I am also trying to go for as close to humanoid as possible but considering some facts it's not much of a problem whether they look completely humanoid or not.

Why humanoid? Why not cat-like, reptilian, arachnid, worm-like, or like a centipede? Mullusk? Fish?


The planets that I will have life evolve on are Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and Pluto (I know not a planet anymore) and thinking about using those two moons that everyone says are likely candidates for life to evolve on.

I'm glad you're thinking fourth dimensionally. There's little reason as to why life could not develop on a sizeable moon orbiting a gas giant such as Jupiter.


#1. Is there any place where I can get relatively good maps on any of these planets I've heard that Mars and Venus have been mapped quite a bit?

Wikipedia.


#2. How might going from one of these planets to another or even constant living in space effect age, strenghth, etc?

Generally speaking, any gravity-bound being has developed certain mechanisms for coping with living in gravity. Take the gravity away, and those mechanisms atrophy, requiring significant readjustment upon the return of gravity. Some organisms taken aboard the space station for study haven't survived without gravity, so dependant they are on it (I don't recall which ones, just that I do recall that some didn't survive).


Venus Questions---
I've not thought much about venus and it doesn't play a major role, but i still ask just because info is good.

v1. I know that Venus is covered in Sulferic clouds and is extremely pressurized. Is there any material that could survive in such conditions for very long? I have a notion that perhaps a sort of living crystal that can constantly regenerate, but I'd like to know what other options I could have.

I believe quartz is relatively unaffected by the Venusian atmosphere, as would be diamond. Gold, however, which can be dissolved in aqua regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia), would be affected by it's atmosphere.


v2. Considering that the atmosphere from what I know of is incredibly hard to see through how would sound travel? Might it be like the ocean?

Because of the density, it would definately be more like the ocean.


v3. Is there anything that could harm the atmosphere, as in igniting the atmosphere like many say could happen here at a certain degree of heat.

That's a pre-atomic age SciFi myth. We've exploded ordinance (hydrogen bombs) that have created both extreme temps and extreme pressures, yet our atmosphere has remained unlit.


Mars Questions----
One of the 2 major thought of planets. Pretty much what i have decided about this race is that they will be primarily a warrior class, worship the sun, and live underground.

Good for them! You could entitle that chapter, or novel in your series, "The Dirt Wars."


m1. These creatures would be exposed to heavy radiation and sand storms. I was thinking that many of their orifices might be sealed or have a covering like some creature here have a protective covering over their eyes. I then got to thinking that perhaps they might have some sort of natural radiation protection, but i couldn't think of anything other than magnetic field and i really don't know how that might that interact if all of them have magnetic fields...so what can help to block radiation?

A resilient genetic structure with enough redundancy that checks genetic integrity prior to cell division against other cells. If a cell's genetic code doesn't make the grade, it's not allowed to divide.

Of course this is somewhat counter-evolutionary, so you're going to have to provide for some other mechanism of evolution than random mutation/variation of genetic structure.


m2. Considering the size of Mars and it's known resources, how many human sized creatures might it be able to accommodate without much problem? If I recall correctly it's like 1/3 the size of the earth and has less than a fourth the amount of "possible" water Would a population of 1 billion be a bit much?

Current Mars? Even if they're all farming mushrooms underground, I'd say 100,000 at best.


m3. Are there any spots on mars which would make good "secret" entrances to their underground cities?

One of the eyes of Cyedonia!


Jupiter----
I haven't thought of anything for...mainly because thinking of the next one...


Woah! Jupiter has the most promising moons for life!

Rethink your decision...


Saturn----
My idea for a Saturn creature is that there are very large, state sized creatures using the atmosphere as a way to get energy and maintain altitude.They live for hundreds of thousands of years and in their life time creatures evolve on their backs which come to be the sentient race and creates cities on these flying creatures.

s1. What might be a good altitude for these "cloud eater" creatures to maintain? I wish them to not be seeable from passing stuff but pretty high up to lower the gravity.

Perhaps you could simply not specify any altitude in the first place. Avoid what we really don't know.


s2. Would be possible for this cloud eater creature to produce an atmosphere above them that is earthlike with the chemicals in the Saturn atmosphere?

If they're going to exist at all, they would have to be able to exist without being able to produce a compatible atmosphere before they evolved to be able to produce a compatible atmosphere.


s3. Is there anything these creatures could hang on to in the atmosphere as to say anchor itself to a position?

No, other than flying through the currents. There's a wonderful article on the albatross in a recent edition of National Geographic. I think it might give you some ideas.


Pluto---
I really have no clue about pluto and how it might get life on it. I was thinking that perhaps the gap between ploto and charon? (is that the name of it's moon?) would be a good spot but i don't know what to ask that would help with the problems with it.

I'd skip it. Too cold.

Durakken
2008-Jun-01, 08:14 PM
The story is pretty much...

There is a huge empire surrounding the earth (good guys of course) and a secret which this empire has been keeping from it's general public about earth has somehow been discovered by another empire (obviously the bad guys). The bad guys realizing that full scale war is a bad idea they send a sorta black ops ship to earth in hopes to seize it. The good guys not wanting to reveal the secret to their people and keep earth safe as well as keep earth from finding out that the other planets are populated send a task force to fight off these black ops incursions and blend into human life as to be able to get around and maintain the secrets easier.

This is why they need to be fairly humanoid.

v2. So sound would travel better so echolocation would be a good thing for this race to have for eyes...or maybe something like what fish have where they have a sensor of some sort on the side of their bodies that puts out or detects electricity...i don't remember exactly how it works.

Mars... their history is all about war and not so much about writing it down so any history before the war that ended in the creation of the good guy empire is pretty much unknown...but there is time travel in this story as well so i may use that :P

m1. I hadn't thought of using the radiation as food, even though i know our skin somewhat does that. I was thinking about using some type of metal skin or maybe say something like superman's explanation in some stories that they're more dense, but i dunno how that would sound as mars has less gravity than earth.

m2. So basically i should keep the number around a couple hundred thousand for realism...that's ok though as in the story martians think that mars isn't all that great of a place to live due to poor living conditions.

Jupiter... I'm not saying I'm not considering it, but many of things that Saturn would develop so would Jupiter and i'm trying to think of ways they might be different and not use the same type society even though they are fairly similar in the story anyways... Perhaps I should use one of the moons instead of the planet itself as it might be easier to have that difference.

Saturn...
s2. I don't think making them fusion reactors would be a problem because as i picture them they are a lot like giant creatures that are pretty much just flesh with an open that suck in clouds. and then on top of their back is forests and animals and such. I had even had an idea at one point that there might be creatures or cities that leech off the energy that is produced by these creatures.

Pluto...I think that it's an insane venture but these characters were invented like 10 years ago and based more on magic than science...now that i'm reimagining more towards science i want to maintain the chars as much as possible so Pluto becomes a must. I think that perhaps a race that wasn't originally evolved on Pluto might be good... Their back story is pretty much they are a military arm of this empire and have problems with warm temperatures... they are among the few races that will have problems interacting due to environment problems...regardless of the tech they have.