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Paul Leeks
2008-Jul-15, 10:48 PM
My dad was in the liberation of Belsen concentration camp with the 11th Armoured Division(British) and what he witnessed is beyond comprehension...he never talked about the war and I tried avoid asking (out of curiosity)...all his mates were blown to pieces..sad,sad,sad.
to people who think that the holocaust never happened..get a life!

Unfortunately war is necessary..(this will raise some eyebrows I know)

My older brother is (currently) a Wing Commander in the RAAF.He is Deputy Director of Space Research, ...and told me how he recently been to Cheyanne Mountain..he didn't say much, but the future of weaponry is getting quite surreal.

I think as long as humans are around, there will be wars...sad,sad,sad.(human condition)...can't have a +ve without a -ve..I mean you can't have peace without war(unfortunately)

it's a matter of survival I suppose!

Paul

Neverfly
2008-Jul-15, 11:07 PM
I do agree that war is just a part of us. I cannot say for certain it is 'necessary' but it is our nature, nonetheless.

Throughout our history we have been having wars, and throughout history people have lamented it and spoken in hopes of there someday being an end to war.

I do not believe there can be an end as long as humans are human.

We are passionate.

Predators.

Territorial.

All these factors that make up our nature, that make us Human, free and alive, also brings about the nature for fighting, war, debate and discourse.

I can't help but wonder what your motivation for this thread is Paul Leeks, considering your interest in SS memorabilia...

Some other members pointed out that a numismatist doesn't avoid coins that bear the face of Nero.
Speaking for myself, I do not see you as an SS Sympathizer, I see you as a collector. Just so you know- in case that was on your mind.

slang
2008-Jul-15, 11:19 PM
I can't help but wonder what your motivation for this thread is Paul Leeks, considering your interest in SS memorabilia...

Some other members pointed out that a numismatist doesn't avoid coins that bear the face of Nero.
Speaking for myself, I do not see you as an SS Sympathizer, I see you as a collector. Just so you know- in case that was on your mind.

(emphasis mine) Seconded.

I do agree that holocaust denial is a heinous act (assuming that is what you meant), usually indicative of an antisemitical agenda (hi mr. "there are no gay people in Iran" president of Iran) or a serious lack in history education (hi, prolly same guy).

antoniseb
2008-Jul-15, 11:22 PM
Seconded. ...

And thirded... there doesn't seem to be some recent event that inspired this post. It is definitely a strange thread to start on your return from a suspension for forbidden topics.

Do you have some astronomy or spaceflight stuff you'd like to talk about?

novaderrik
2008-Jul-15, 11:25 PM
...and told me how he recently been to Cheyanne Mountain..he didn't say much, but the future of weaponry is getting quite surreal.

did he get to see the stargate- or at least get to play with a zat?

Paul Leeks
2008-Jul-15, 11:25 PM
Thanks Neverfly

Thanks No I am not an SS Symapathiser,but I am a SS enthusiast(history)/collector.It's fascinating history and thats why I am a collector..just to reassure you some of my best friends are dark skinned,they are good people(like myself!) .I try not to judge people by the way they look I judge people by their ATTITUDE!...and my friends have got the RIGHT ATTITUDE(POSITIVE)!

and yes that was on my mind in terms of what your inferring(and I understand)

so yeah I am a collector,WW2(history) enthusiast.

Paul L

Paul Leeks
2008-Jul-15, 11:29 PM
I have mentioned spaceflight Antoniseb...YOUR personal spacecraft(thread)..remember!

I really would like to have an Eagle Transporter(Space 1999)

PL

Lianachan
2008-Jul-15, 11:56 PM
I really would like to have an Eagle Transporter(Space 1999)


In my youth, I had a small die-cast one of those - and a large Airfix model of one, too.

:)

Edited: In fact, item 130232441823 at the US Ebay site (http://www.ebay.com) is exactly the model I mean!

01101001
2008-Jul-16, 12:00 AM
Praising progress:


holocaust denial...more conspiracy rubbish!

One exclamation mark. Well done.

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 12:58 AM
I can't help but wonder what your motivation for this thread is Paul Leeks, considering your interest in SS memorabilia...

Some other members pointed out that a numismatist doesn't avoid coins that bear the face of Nero.
Speaking for myself, I do not see you as an SS Sympathizer, I see you as a collector. Just so you know- in case that was on your mind.
It seems that twice now, Paul has been either patronized - on the evilness of the Nazi regime - or his motives questioned.

This thread, IMO Paul is stating that he does not understand how anyone can deny the Holocaust, especially considering his father's experiences in WWII.
Why would you even mention anything about being an SS Sympathizer because he collects memorabilia?
:confused::confused::confused:

Neverfly
2008-Jul-16, 01:02 AM
Why would you even mention anything about being an SS Sympathizer because he collects memorabilia?
:confused::confused::confused:

It has already been mentioned several times, not by me.

I was merely looking to reassure Paul Leeks that many of us understand the difference between a Collector and a Sympathizer- just in case that thought was on his mind when he made the thread.
I myself have expressed an admiration and interest in german Bombers from the war- which could also be suggestive, yet most aviation enthusiasts understand it quite well.

I questioned his motives for making the thread- But not his motives in being a collector- rather- I did the opposite.

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 01:15 AM
Paul, the way I see it, wars are impossible to avoid, given that we are humans.
We need land, water and resources. We get greedy, are unsatisfied and want to live a more comforting life.
And even if you are blessed to live in a just and giving society, your neighbours could be jealous, violent types, ready to pounce on you without provocation. Therefore, you either arm yourself - maybe sacrificing some of your values, or sacrifice yourself and keep your values intact. But you probably don't want to end up dead, or a slave, so some sort of aggressive response is usually the way it is handled.
Judging whether a war is necessary or not is hard. Really hard sometimes. To come to the aid of the Allies in WWII seems like an easy decision, but some countries decided not to for various reasons. Tougher calls would be the Vietnam War or the incursion into Iraq today.
I hate war because of the innocents that are maimed and killed and suffer horribly. Whether it was Dresden, or Hiroshima or Baghdad.
Even if I support a war, I still hate it, and feel guilty because I'm living in a comfortable place, with lots of food to eat, with medical services when I get sick and for the most part healthy and happy kids, family and friends.
I find my feelings about war confusing and hard to reconcile with my heart.

Neverfly
2008-Jul-16, 01:19 AM
I hate war because of the innocents that are maimed and killed and suffer horribly. Whether it was Dresden, or Hiroshima or Baghdad.
Even if I support a war, I still hate it, and feel guilty because I'm living in a comfortable place, with lots of food to eat, with medical services when I get sick and for the most part healthy and happy kids, family and friends.
I find my feelings about war confusing and hard to reconcile with my heart.
You are not alone in this.
Try being a soldier, knowing that the lives you have taken were fathers, uncles, brothers...
It's a choice- to carry it. It must be carried. Yes, it is terrible, but sadly, often it is necessary that there are those that will carry it.
War itself may not ever be necessary. But war will exist. And those who fight them are necessary.

But I'll tell ya- Some nights sure aren't easy for sleep...

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 01:20 AM
It has already been mentioned several times, not by me.

I was merely looking to reassure Paul Leeks that many of us understand the difference between a Collector and a Sympathizer- just in case that thought was on his mind when he made the thread.
I myself have expressed an admiration and interest in german Bombers from the war- which could also be suggestive, yet most aviation enthusiasts understand it quite well.

I questioned his motives for making the thread- But not his motives in being a collector- rather- I did the opposite.

Thanks for the explanation, Neverfly.
I do tend to get confused easily sometimes. :cry:

It just seemed like at the time that I had to say something, and will continue to do so in the future if I feel it is justified. I'd rather be wrong -at least sometimes - than be quiet.

Neverfly
2008-Jul-16, 01:26 AM
It just seemed like at the time that I had to say something, and will continue to do so in the future if I feel it is justified. I'd rather be wrong than be quiet.

Likewise. I'm that way too, even worse because I am stubborn.;)

Paul Leeks
2008-Jul-16, 01:27 AM
Ginnie I could not agree with you more...without our grandparents and dads that went into combat..we would not be here!!THEY WENT INTO BATTLE SO YOU CAN HAVE YOUR FREEDOM!

& Ginnie is right because I collect German/SS memorabilia why do folk have -ve connotations? what has "motive" got to do with anything??

I am WW2 enthusiast(history)...stop jumping to conclusions!

PL

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 01:38 AM
I think that any serious collector knows the history of what they are collecting. The five W's so to speak. If they don't, I think they have a responsibility to learn that history.
Should children be allowed to play with toy Lugers?
I'm not sure I know the answer to that one! My son had water guns when he was growing up - but I also let him play Wolfenstein 3D. In retrospect, that may not have been the correct thing to do. I am confused once again...

Lianachan
2008-Jul-16, 01:41 AM
I think that any serious collector knows the history of what they are collecting. The five W's so to speak. If they don't, I think they have a responsibility to learn that history.

Well, if people are collecting something then presumably it's something they're interested in.... and if it's something they're interested in, then presumably they'd want to learn more anyway - whether it's records, stamps, <item of your choice here> or historical articles.

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 01:43 AM
...without our grandparents and dads that went into combat..we would not be here!!
PL

Well, you might still be here but be living under different conditions and speaking a different language. I'm not too up on my WWII history as regards New Zealand and the Axis threat.

I was born in Newfoundland, Canada - the most easterly part of North America. We had to mine our bays and barricade some of our beaches. U-Boats roamed offshore during the war, but rarely torpedoed anything. Considering the sufferings of other countries, we got off light. Many of our brave men did die overseas though, and I've met a few veterans who to a man do not talk about the war.

Kaptain K
2008-Jul-16, 01:49 AM
1) It is my sincerest hope that, someday, humanity will out grow the need for war.

2) I inherited a NAZI officer's sword. My father was a country doctor in the '50s and often took "non-cash" payments for his services (usually live stock). The last time I had it appraised, it was worth about US $500. It's not on display, but it is hanging on the wall behind the flag that covered dad's (as an army veteran) coffin.

Lianachan
2008-Jul-16, 01:54 AM
2) I inherited a NAZI officers sword. My father was a country doctor in the '50s and often took "non-cash" payments for his services (usually live stock). The last time I had it appraised, it was worth about US $500. It's not on display, but it is hanging on the wall behind the flag that covered dad's (as an army veteran) coffin.

That's cool. Due to my dads old job, when I was a lot younger I got to fire an Artillery Luger (the one with the long barrel) from WW1, and a WW2 MP40 submachine gun. He didn't own either, but they were in his care for a while.

Jens
2008-Jul-16, 08:54 AM
My dad was in the liberation of Belsen concentration camp with the 11th Armoured Division(British) and what he witnessed is beyond comprehension...he never talked about the war

Paul, I'm sorry to pick on you, but if your father never talked about the war, then how do you know what he witnessed? Telepathy? :)

captain swoop
2008-Jul-16, 09:01 AM
I question the motives of some WW2 'Re-enactors'

WW2 living history is quite a big thing in the UK. I am involved with the 'Wartime Weekend' on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway.
Some events see many hundreds of re-enactors turning up, usualy a mix of British, American and German. There are however those that dress and parade as the '1st SS Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler'

Why? of all the German units you could be? Why the SS? and why that division?

There was a Channel 4 (UK) investigation into them with an undercover reporter joining for a couple of re-enactments and shows. Despite their protestations to be 'Non Political' a lot of the 'Rank and File' held depressingly obvious sympathies.

mugaliens
2008-Jul-16, 05:58 PM
Wars are simple to end - just allow your enemy to defeat you.

What's difficult is having something to show for it at war's end.

chrissy
2008-Jul-16, 08:06 PM
My uncle and his brother were POWs in Barbi Yar, captured by the Russians, when they both were liberated my uncle was in hospital for a very long time, he was imaciated and close to death, his brother was in a bit better condition so he didn't stay long in the hospital.

Larry Jacks
2008-Jul-16, 10:10 PM
It's easy to look at the Holocaust and think of the murderous thugs like the SS guards and the Capos but that only covers one aspect of the story. As a Buchenwald survivor told me, none of it would've been possible without the efforts of the architects and engineers who built the camps, the gas chambers, and the ovens. These people weren't the brutish thugs who personally murdered millions of people. They were university educated people who made assembly line mass murder possible.

It's also easy to overlook the fact that German is not a synonym for Nazi. A German Luftwaffe officer stood up to the SS and got my friend and some 160 other Allied airmen out of Buchenwald. Had they met in the sky, they would've tried to kill each other but that Luftwaffe officer was a military professional in the best sense of the word, not a thug. He risked everything to do the right thing.

ginnie
2008-Jul-16, 10:33 PM
It's easy to look at the Holocaust and think of the murderous thugs like the SS guards and the Capos but that only covers one aspect of the story. As a Buchenwald survivor told me, none of it would've been possible without the efforts of the architects and engineers who built the camps, the gas chambers, and the ovens. These people weren't the brutish thugs who personally murdered millions of people. They were university educated people who made assembly line mass murder possible.

It's also easy to overlook the fact that German is not a synonym for Nazi. A German Luftwaffe officer stood up to the SS and got my friend and some 160 other Allied airmen out of Buchenwald. Had they met in the sky, they would've tried to kill each other but that Luftwaffe officer was a military professional in the best sense of the word, not a thug. He risked everything to do the right thing.
Good post.
Illustrates how 'bad' can be found in 'good' places, and how 'good' can be found in 'bad' places.

I've seen on TV shows sometimes about submarines or airplanes and the like, where two pilots or seamen from opposite sides have met many years after the war. They are almost always cordial to each other - indeed more than that - respectful and understanding about what they had to do during the war. Many times they are curious of what the 'enemies' planes were like to fly, and even exchange funny stories.

Stuart van Onselen
2008-Jul-17, 08:37 AM
There's something peculiar about the military/warrior mindset, in general: Two warriors (as opposed to simple thugs) on opposite sides, can each be utterly determined to kill the other, on the field of battle, but magnanimous outside that field (such as when one is already powerless, e.g. a POW, or when the war is over.)

And even while they are are still trying to kill each other, they will nevertheless respect each other.

Neverfly
2008-Jul-17, 08:48 AM
There's something peculiar about the military/warrior mindset, in general: Two warriors (as opposed to simple thugs) on opposite sides, can each be utterly determined to kill the other, on the field of battle, but magnanimous outside that field (such as when one is already powerless, e.g. a POW, or when the war is over.)

And even while they are are still trying to kill each other, they will nevertheless respect each other.

It is not peculiar at all.

That kind of warrior knows that the purpose behind the battle is unrelated to the individuals involved.
Your intent is not to kill. Your intent is to win the battle.

The trouble is that when conflict finally resorts to force, force will always escalate to deadly force in a war. Deadly force is the Big Cheese. You can't go any higher than killing your opponent. War means Maxed Out.

ETA: Some fascinating reading (Psychologically speaking) on this subject is The Red Baron (Manfred von Richthofen). And the sad thing is... he was just a kid:neutral:

ginnie
2008-Jul-17, 04:19 PM
Paul, I'm sorry to pick on you, but if your father never talked about the war, then how do you know what he witnessed? Telepathy? :)

I've known at least one veteran that "never talked about the war" but knew about some of his experiences, through family and friends. Most people aren't isolated in their history, they may have discussed things sometimes under extreme circumstances, or provided bits and pieces of their experience over time. Sometimes parts are told when they have been drinking, or when they have been grieving over a lost friend. They may have initially told people after the war, but never spoke about it - or rarely - again. They may have only told a few people, like their best friend or spouse and that information was passed on. It may also be documented. Usually there are detailed records of who was where and when. Maybe a fellow soldier and friend talked about it...they are lots of ways for Paul to find out.

captain swoop
2008-Jul-17, 10:00 PM
On the subject of the OP 'Crossing Continents' on Radio 4 today was about Anti Sematism in Lithuania.

WHen the Germans invaded in 1941 and drove out the Russians who had occupied the country the year before they were seen as liberators. In contrast to the other Nazi occupied countries it was the Lithuanians who actively rounded up the Jews and executed thousands as Soviet 'Collaborators'

Anyway a few years ago the govt set up a commission to investigate and report on the wartime activities. A few months ago the Public Prosecutors office started claiming that the Jews that escaped to become Resistance fighters were War Criminals and they have started 'investigating' the Jewish members of the comission.

Neverfly
2008-Jul-17, 10:59 PM
Anyway a few years ago the govt set up a commission to investigate and report on the wartime activities. A few months ago the Public Prosecutors office started claiming that the Jews that escaped to become Resistance fighters were War Criminals and they have started 'investigating' the Jewish members of the comission.

This is the kind of thing that is utterly beyond upsetting to me.

Those that fight back against injustice getting prosecuted and accused of Crimes.:neutral:

RalofTyr
2008-Jul-18, 04:47 AM
Just wait until they start having wars in space. That'll be fun.

I think it will get worse in space. Because the people living in different gravities will be taller/small. I imagine the 9 feet tall, "Moonites" targeting the regular sized, but genetically refigured bodies (with hands for legs) that live in zero G in space stations will try to wipe each other out one day.

Nobody owns space, but everyone thinks they do.

What gets me about the Holocaust is that it wasn't really just about Jews. They they were the majority, 5 million non-Jews (and 30 million Russians, Ukrainians, (Slavics)) were also victims of a holocaust (Genocide), but they got little recognition for it (except the Russians did in the USSR). Afro-Europeans were sterilized. Gypses, Poles, homosexuals and anyone else who didn't submit to NAZI rule or was of the wrong ethnicity, were targeted.

I'm not at all really surprised by the NAZI's holocaust or even holocaust deniers, because, as the late George Carlin once said, "We're barely out of the jungle...now, we just have base ball caps and fully automatic weapons".

This stuff's happening in Sudan right now. I guess humans have an primal urge to commit genocide. Probably why they're no Neaderthals walking around today.