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Maha Vailo
2008-Jul-20, 02:01 AM
I was reading an article on CNN on cutting your risk of heart disease (here (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/17/healthmag.slashrisk/index.html)) and one of the things it suggested was:


5. Eat a healthy diet. It should be low in trans fats but high in fiber, omega-3 fatty acids, and folate; it should also have a lower glycemic load and a higher polyunsaturated-to-saturated fat ratio.

Now in order to make this easier on me, I'd like to know what kind of ethnic food best resembles the diet in the profile. Foods that fit the diet that are cheap would also be much appreciated.

- Maha Vailo

sarongsong
2008-Jul-20, 02:12 AM
Sounds like Thai to me. :)

Tuckerfan
2008-Jul-20, 04:51 AM
Mediterranean diets are generally considered to be the healthiest, AFAIK.

Jens
2008-Jul-20, 05:03 AM
I think you have to distinguish between a traditional diet and modern diet. For example, the old Japanese diet with fish and genmai (untreated rice) or something like barley was quite close to that. But now Japanese eat a lot of white rice, which has a high glycemic load. Same with Thais.

Ronald Brak
2008-Jul-20, 05:35 AM
But now Japanese eat a lot of white rice, which has a high glycemic load.

Japanese rice (Oryza sativa var. japonica) does have a very low GI index for rice, or so I've been told. Of course, if you eat a heap of it, it will add up to a big load.

novaderrik
2008-Jul-20, 06:51 AM
Mediterranean diets are generally considered to be the healthiest, AFAIK.
bring on the lasagna, spaghetti, and pizza.. it's good for you this week.

Tuckerfan
2008-Jul-20, 06:55 AM
bring on the lasagna, spaghetti, and pizza.. it's good for you this week.

Think Greek, not Italian (though the French have proven that you can eat pretty much anything and live a long time, provided you wash it down with plenty of red wine).

jokergirl
2008-Jul-20, 08:05 AM
Anything with lots of greens and fish in it is good, I'd say. And oils like olive oil, which are apparently healthier than refined oils.
Italian food has a lot of white pasta, which doesn't have enough fiber I think. Try switching it with other grains sometime.

Personally I've found that always trying to get 1/3 of the plate full of vegetables (and potatoes don't count) makes one used to eating healthier really quickly. It now feels weird having a meal without veggies.

;)

Neverfly
2008-Jul-20, 08:54 AM
Anything with lots of greens and fish in it is good, I'd say. And oils like olive oil, which are apparently healthier than refined oils.
Italian food has a lot of white pasta, which doesn't have enough fiber I think. Try switching it with other grains sometime.

Personally I've found that always trying to get 1/3 of the plate full of vegetables (and potatoes don't count) makes one used to eating healthier really quickly. It now feels weird having a meal without veggies.

;)

That's a snack.
Part of my problem is I fill the plate 3/3rds.
Then just use three plates.

I eat like a horse. Except I don't eat what horses eat.

Veggies? That's what food eats.

The trick is to eat lots of food that eats veggies.

'Cept Cornbread. Cornbread is ok.

Jeff Root
2008-Jul-20, 09:43 AM
jokergirl,

Do you have any specific suggestions for vegetables? I like vegetables as
much as any other part of a meal, but the variety seems limited. I also am
no good at food preparation. The fabulous Rachael Ray is a magician. Her
30-minute meals would take me half a day, and the effort would put me off
of trying anything like that again for a long time. But suggest anyway.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Maha Vailo
2008-Jul-20, 11:32 AM
Mmmm...Thai...problem is, out of the members of the family, only my brother and I eat it.

Isn't Mediterranean cuisine pretty carb-heavy, due to all that pasta and polenta and such? That would tend to crank the glycemic load up, you would think.

- Maha Vailo

Whirlpool
2008-Jul-20, 11:51 AM
It's not only the kind of food that you eat that will fit in your diet. It's the quantity. If you eat more than 2 servings of dish every meal that means you are adding extra load of fats , carbo , sugar .
Try to limit your food in just one serving. Say if you eat beef for lunch , try eating fish for dinner. As for with rice , Rice is needed only for breakfast with 1 serving for those who are rice eaters like the Asians , but you can skip or eat half serving of it on lunch and dinner.
Plus you may better check your grocery list , I mean those microwavable fastfood, chips, softdrinks, ice cream etc. Better lessen eating them,they are loaded with those unwanted fats and sugar .

And lastly, Exercise daily.

:)

jokergirl
2008-Jul-20, 02:04 PM
jokergirl,

Do you have any specific suggestions for vegetables? I like vegetables as
much as any other part of a meal, but the variety seems limited. I also am
no good at food preparation. The fabulous Rachael Ray is a magician. Her
30-minute meals would take me half a day, and the effort would put me off
of trying anything like that again for a long time. But suggest anyway.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

I actually have a fish-and-vegetarian foodblog at http://wererabbits.wordpress.com/ if you want to take a peep :) I'm no nutritionist but I like quick, healthy and varied cooking.
Update: Ack! My webserver is down at the moment so the photos won't be visible until tonight :P

For the time being, look at what leafy greens are available at your place. A salad takes no time to whip up at all if you stock balsamico vinegar and olive oil as staple dressing. Alternatively, chop up some ripe tomatoes and onions with the same dressing.
Steaming a few leaves of spinach or some asparagus spears with lots of garlic in whatever pan you've been using for cooking your meat is no problem at all either.
If you have problems shopping for greens, stock some staples (broccoli, corn, baby carrots) in your freezer and warm them in portions.

More advanced: Learn to wok efficiently. You can wok pretty much any veggie you find in your fridge and make it tasty.
Well, thinking about my fridge at home I think there are some veggies that not even a wok can make better any more... I think some after-vacation cleaning is in order :P

;)

Jeff Root
2008-Jul-21, 08:45 AM
I actually have a fish-and-vegetarian foodblog at
http://wererabbits.wordpress.com/
Hey!



For the time being, look at what leafy greens are available at your place.
A salad takes no time to whip up at all if you stock balsamico vinegar and
olive oil as staple dressing.
I had some olive oil not long ago and didn't like the smell/taste of it.
It didn't smell like it had gone bad, though. It was that way from the
time I opened it soon after buying it. Never had it in heat or sunlight.
Maybe a different brand will use a different kind of olives...

Oil of one kind or another is in almost everything, but lately I've been
trying to avoid it when I can because my body seems to have started to do
funny things with it...

I used to like most creamy white salad dressings, but every one I've bought
in the last several years (maybe a dozen kinds, half a dozen brands) has
something in it that tastes awful. It is the same thing in all of them,
but I haven't been able to identify it. I notice that garlic is in nearly
all dressings, but I can't confirm that that's what it is. Bleu cheese
dressing may be an exception. I'm not sure whether it has garlic.



Alternatively, chop up some ripe tomatoes and onions with the same dressing.
I love cooked onions as much as I hate raw onions. :) However, Vidalia
and Walla Walla onions may be exceptions. I think they don't have as much
propanethial-sulfur-oxide. Do you have those varieties where you are?



Steaming a few leaves of spinach or some asparagus spears with lots of
garlic in whatever pan you've been using for cooking your meat is no
problem at all either.
So far I've never eaten anything that I knew had garlic in it that wasn't
somewhere on the scale from disappointing to inedible. I think I just
really, really dislike garlic. I still occasionally try things with
garlic in them, but so far, no joy.



If you have problems shopping for greens,
Problems getting to the store, and problems buying anything I'm not
already familiar with. Mostly green or red leaf lettuce, Romaine, the
ubiquitous iceberg of course, and maybe one or two others that I can't
identify by name. And spinach. (As a kid I thought it only came in
cans and tasted horrible. I didn't even know it consisted of leaves.
I didn't learn that the fresh leaves are edible until I was in my 30's.
What a difference!) If there are other greens I should get, I don't
know what to do with them.



stock some staples (broccoli, corn, baby carrots) in your freezer and
warm them in portions.
What I do mostly is buy packages of "mixed vegetables" which consist
of corn, diced carrots, peas, green beans, and usually lima beans.
Sometimes frozen brussels sprouts, peas and onions, or others when I
find them. I'll also buy fresh carrots and celery to put into salads
or beef stew or eat raw. Celery also goes into tuna sandwiches.



More advanced: Learn to wok efficiently. You can wok pretty much any
veggie you find in your fridge and make it tasty.
So I should get a wok and a wok cookbook.

For what it's worth, here's a list of foods I put together, mostly
years ago, Before Internet. At the end are a few items that I wasn't
sure how to classify. Please suggest foods I didn't think of.



FOODS

Grain Products

Breads
Cereals
Wheat Cereals
Oat Cereals
Barley Cereals
Corn Cereals
Rice Cereals
Granola
Couscous
Farina
Grits (Cornmeal)
Kasha (Buckwheat)
Pasta
Rice
Corn
Cakes
Cookies
Pies & Pastries
Grains & Flour


Vegetables

Lettuce & Greens Leaves
Leaf Lettuce D Composite
Romaine Lettuce D Composite
Iceberg Lettuce D Composite
Bibb Lettuce D Composite
Boston Lettuce D Composite
Chicory D Composite
Endive D Composite
Escarole D Composite
Raddichio D Composite
Spinach D Amaranth
Beet Greens D Amaranth
Swiss Chard D Amaranth
Dandelion Greens D Composite
Mustard Greens D Mustard
Watercress D Mustard
Kale D Mustard
Collard Greens D Mustard
Turnip Greens D Mustard
Broccoli Rabe D Mustard
Brussels Sprouts Buds D Mustard
Cabbage Leaves D Mustard
Chinese Cabbage
Bok Choy
Green Cabbage
Red Cabbage
Savoy
Cauliflower Flower heads D Mustard
Broccoli Flower heads D Mustard
Globe Artichoke Flower heads D Composite
Asparagus Buds & Stalks M Lily
Celery Stalks & Leaves D Celery
Peas & Beans Seeds & Pods D Legume
Peas
Snow Peas
Black-Eyed Peas
Chick-Peas
Lentils
Peanuts
Kidney Beans
Navy Beans
Pinto Beans
Scarlet Runner
Lima Beans
Soybeans
Green Beans
Wax Beans
Peppers (Capsicum) Pods D Nightshade
Okra Pods D Mallow
Cucumbers Fruit D Gourd
Tomatoes Fruit D Nightshade
Tomatillo (Ground Cherry) Fruit D Nightshade
Eggplant Fruit D Nightshade
Avocados Fruit D Laurel
Olives Fruit D Olive
Carrots Roots D Celery
Parsnips Roots D Celery
Celeriac Roots D Celery
Beets Roots D Amaranth
Kohlrabi Stems D Mustard
Rutabegas Roots D Mustard
Turnips Roots D Mustard
Radishes Roots D Mustard
Onions Bulbs M Lily
Potatoes Tubers D Nightshade
Sweet Potatoes Roots D Morning glory
Yams (True Yams) Tubers M Lily
Jerusalem Artichoke Tubers D Composite
Squash Fruit D Gourd
Summer Squash
Zucchini
Yellow Crookneck
Yellow Straightneck
Winter Squash
Buttercup
Butternut
Spaghetti
Acorn
Hubbard
Pumpkin
Rice Seeds M Grass
Corn Seeds M Grass
Mushrooms Fungi


Fruits & Nuts

Citrus Fruits
Oranges
Tagerines
Clementines
Tangelos
Ugli Fruit
Grapefruit
Lemons
Limes
Apples
Pears
Quinces
Pomegranates
Peaches & Nectarines
Apricots
Plums & Prunes
Persimmons
Berries
Grapes
Rasins
Cherries
Blueberries
Blackberries
Cranberries
Raspberries
Strawberries
Bananas
Melons
Watermelon [red]
Muskmelon [orange]
Cantaloupe [orange]
Persian [orange]
Casaba [yellow]
Honeydew [green]
Mangoes
Guavas
Pineapple
Dates
Figs
Nuts
Acorn
Almond
Beechnut
Betel Nut
Black Walnut
Brazil Nut
Cashew
Chestnut
Coconut
Filbert
Hazelnut
Hickory Nut
Peanut
Pecan
Pistachio
Walnut


Meat, Fish, Eggs

Beef
Pork
Lamb
Poultry
Chicken
Turkey
Duck
Goose
Game Birds
Eggs
Processed Meats
Game
Fish
Shellfish
Crab
Lobster
Crayfish
Shrimp
Prawns
Clams
Oysters
Mussels
Scallops
Abalone
Snails
Squid
Octopus


Milk Products

Milk
Cream
Ice Cream
Yogurt
Cheese
Butter


Sugar Products

White sugar (Sucrose)
Brown sugar
Confectioner's Sugar
Other Sugars
Glucose (Dextrose)
Fructose (Levulose)
Invert sugar (Glucose/Fructose mix)
Galactose
Lactose
Maltose
Frostings
Jellies, Jams, & Preserves
Honey
Corn Syrup
Maple Syrup
Molasses
Marshmallows
Candies
Sugar Substitutes


Condiments

Salt
Sugars
Spices
Allspice
Anise
Basil
Bay
Black Pepper
Caraway
Cardamon
Cayenne Pepper
Celery
Chervil
Chili Pepper
Chive
Cinnamon
Clove
Coriander
Cumin
Dill
Fennel
Garlic
Ginger
Horseradish
Mace
Marjoram
Mint
Mustard
Nutmeg
Onion
Oregano
Paprika
Parsley
Peppercorns
Peppermint
Red Pepper
Rosemary
Sage
Savory
Tarragon
Thyme
Turmeric
Vanilla
White Pepper
Winter Savory
Catchup
Mustard
Mayonnaise
Butter
Margarine
Fats & Oils
White Sauces
Tomato Sauces
Meat & Fish Sauces
Gravies
Salad Dressings
Soy Sauce
Vinegar
Baking Soda
Baking Powder
Corn Starch
Cream of Tartar
Yeast


Beverages

Water
Tea
Coffee
Cocoa & Chocolate
Milk & Milkshakes
Colas & Soda Pop
Colas
Ginger Ale
Root Beer
Club Soda
Fruit-Flavored Sodas
Alcoholic Drinks
Alcohol
Beer & Ale
Wine
Distilled Spirits
Mixed Drinks
Fruit Juices
Orange Juice
Apple Juice (Sweet Cider)
Other Fruit Juices
Lemonade
Limeade
Orangeade
Vegetable Juices
Tomato Juice
Carrot Juice
Other Vegetable Juices

__________________________________________________ ___________

Where do these go?

Rhubarb Stalks D Sorrel
Carob (Locust Bean) Pods D Legume
Cocoa & Chocolate (Cacao) Seeds D
Sunflower Seeds Seeds D Composite
Pumpkin Seeds Seeds D Squash
Pimiento Pods D Nightshade (Capsicum)
Tofu (Bean Curd) Seeds D Legume
Tapioca (Cassava, Manioc) Roots D Spurge
Gelatin (Collagen) Bones & skin Cattle & pigs


-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

jokergirl
2008-Jul-21, 09:36 AM
Actually I'm more suggesting that you get a wok cooking class. It's more fun and it will motivate you to appreciate the food more as well as introduce you to the tastes and different condiments in a way a cookbook can't.


Trying to suggest things without knowing about specific likes and dislikes is hard. I had no idea you didn't like garlic! :doh:
I personally can't stand any bottled white sauce salad dressings, as they all seem to contain sweetener and/or fat replacement, both of which taste terribly sweet and chemical to me.
I also think that bagged or canned "mixed vegetables" are the bane of my life. There's usually nothing but boiled carrots and green peas in it, which I can't stand :)

Have you tried rocket (rucola) salad? Not everyone likes it as the bitter taste is something you have to get used to, but I find it quite lovely, especially when grown in your own garden. That's about the weirdest salad I know - all other salads are pretty much leafy greens and you don't need to worry about trying a new sort at all.
Same with spinach - try mangold or bok choy for a change, too.

Generally I would advise you to stay away from the supermarket stuff and go buy veggies at farmer's markets instead. They have much more taste and are usually healthier.

I'll see if I can figure out some recipes for simple side dishes in the next weeks and put them on my blog - you've inspired me now!
One of my personal favourites is to take three bell peppers - one of each color - cut into thin strips, panfry them (if you don't like olive oil I heard peanut oil is all the rage with wok people :P) until soft and cool them down with balsamico vinegar. It's a phantastic tapas food. Mmm. Pickles should be a food group.

;)

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-01, 11:30 PM
OK, now we're talking cancer prevention here:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16671-lifestyle-changes-could-cut-cancers-by-a-third.html

My question now is this: what ethnic cuisine is low in red meats, processed meats and refined starches, and salt, and high in fruits and veggies?

- Maha Vailo

RAF_Blackace
2009-Jun-01, 11:36 PM
My question now is this: what ethnic cuisine is low in red meats, processed meats and refined starches, and salt, and high in fruits and veggies?

South Indian ? Not the UK curry house variety, but real Indian food as served in south India.

nauthiz
2009-Jun-01, 11:55 PM
Ethiopian sounds like a good option, too.

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-02, 12:04 AM
The problem with Indian food in my family is the same one with Thai: only my brother and I eat it.

And I don't even know where to get Ethiopian food or even a cookbook thereof.

Is there any ethnic cuisine, any at all, that fits both the heart-healthy and cancer-protective guidelines that is even remotely eatable?

- Maha Vailo

Luckeydavid
2009-Jun-02, 12:19 AM
I was reading an article on CNN on cutting your risk of heart disease (here (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/17/healthmag.slashrisk/index.html)) and one of the things it suggested was:



Now in order to make this easier on me, I'd like to know what kind of ethnic food best resembles the diet in the profile. Foods that fit the diet that are cheap would also be much appreciated.

- Maha Vailo

Instead of ethnicity, just analyze what types of foods that fit into the category (which is what I'm sure you were trying to do). Thinking in a narrow term such as "which culture offers the closest semblance to this diet" is fallacious because of the potential for there to be more than one dish that does not conform to the standards.


5. Eat a healthy diet. It should be low in trans fats but high in fiber, omega-3 fatty acids, and folate; it should also have a lower glycemic load and a higher polyunsaturated-to-saturated fat ratio.

High Fiber: Whole Wheat, Whole Grains, Fruits, Leafy Greens, Beans, Nuts & seeds

Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Fish, Nuts/seeds, Tofu

Lower-Glycemic: Basically the things listed on high fiber are lower glycemic


Examples:
Salmon Salad w/ chopped nuts, and no dressing
Toasted Whole wheat bread with skinless chicken breast, lettuce, natural relish/ketchup
Steamed Brown Rice, Chopped chicken breast (or tofu), chopped onions
Whole Wheat Pasta, Natural Tomato sauce, Chopped Chicken Breast/salmon

The key thing to watch is that with every meal you are having 30-40% protein, 40-50% carbs, & 15-20% fats. From that template, you just make sure you're selecting low glycemic carbs (whole wheat/grains/pasta)

The best way to make sure you're eating right is to read the labels for any artificial additives, and then using a little cross-referencing between your foods to ensure they conform to the 40/40/20 ratio.


This is coming from a guy who lost over 100lbs by educating himself on bodybuilding nutrition/exercise, and then went out and did what he learned.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-02, 02:31 AM
The problem with Indian food in my family is the same one with Thai: only my brother and I eat it.

And I don't even know where to get Ethiopian food or even a cookbook thereof.

Is there any ethnic cuisine, any at all, that fits both the heart-healthy and cancer-protective guidelines that is even remotely eatable?

- Maha Vailo

Yes, both Greek and French cuisine (provided you don't shy away from the red wine) are two such examples. You might also check out Dr. Dean Ornish's work, which recommends a specialized type of vegetarian diet. (He's a medical doctor, who's put all his stuff through peer reviewed studies, I believe.)

You also don't have to rely just on ethnic diets, there's ample websites out there like www.projectfoodie.com/ where you can plug in things like ingredients and have it spit out a number of recipes.

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-02, 02:43 AM
Well, that's at least something. Unfortunately, none of us drink. Is there any way to get the health benefits of red wine without drinking it?

Also, bear in mind that my family is on an extremely tight budget. French food is expensive. (Don't know anything about how to make Greek food on a budget, though.)

Might just have to bookmark that Project Foodie site. Would be helpful in decluttering that fridge of ours.

- Maha Vailo

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-02, 02:53 AM
Well, that's at least something. Unfortunately, none of us drink. Is there any way to get the health benefits of red wine without drinking it?Maybe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol


Also, bear in mind that my family is on an extremely tight budget. French food is expensive. (Don't know anything about how to make Greek food on a budget, though.)French food does not have to be all that expensive. Pick up one of Julia Child's cookbooks and skip the things like roast duck, and you'll be fine. Greek food, being heavy on plant sources tends not to be all that expensive (though grape leaves might be kind of pricey depending upon where you live). You can also save money by starting a garden and growing things yourself. Even if you live in an apartment, there's ways of doing it either indoors, or in small containers outside. See here: http://www.farmfountain.com/ and here: http://www.squarefootgardening.com/ for some suggestions on doing that.

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-02, 11:16 AM
Thanks for the cookbook and garden suggestions (I've already got one), but I'd like to get the benefits of red wine without either drinking the stuff or taking supplements (which can also be expensive). Am I out of luck?

Also, my father says that if I'm not currently drinking, that it's bad for me to take up drinking just for one's health. Is he wrong? Can you bring up any articles that might claim this? He said he read it in an article somewhere.

- Maha Vailo

Gillianren
2009-Jun-02, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the cookbook and garden suggestions (I've already got one), but I'd like to get the benefits of red wine without either drinking the stuff or taking supplements (which can also be expensive). Am I out of luck?

Yes?

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-02, 05:25 PM
Thanks for the cookbook and garden suggestions (I've already got one), but I'd like to get the benefits of red wine without either drinking the stuff or taking supplements (which can also be expensive). Am I out of luck?Basically, yes.


Also, my father says that if I'm not currently drinking, that it's bad for me to take up drinking just for one's health. Is he wrong? Can you bring up any articles that might claim this? He said he read it in an article somewhere.

- Maha Vailo

Half a glass of wine a day may boost life expectancy by five years (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090429205609.htm) (maybe longer if you're at risk for certain cancers and heart disease). If you're one of those rare individuals who is not at risk for heart disease, certain cancers (lung, prostate, and many others), and a few other ailments, then drinking alcohol may have a slight negative impact on your life. For everyone else, the benefits probably outweigh the risks, and one cup of coffee a day will help prevent liver damage. (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=45124)
Drinking coffee protects alcohol drinkers from developing liver disease, says a new study carried out at the Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program, California, USA. According to the researchers, one cup of coffee per day lowered the incidence of cirrhosis of the liver for alcohol drinkers by 22%.

Fazor
2009-Jun-02, 05:55 PM
I thought it was apparent by now that everything both causes and cures all of natures diseases.

mahesh
2009-Jun-02, 06:14 PM
The problem with Indian food in my family is the same one with Thai: only my brother and I eat it.

And I don't even know where to get Ethiopian food or even a cookbook thereof.

Is there any ethnic cuisine, any at all, that fits both the heart-healthy and cancer-protective guidelines that is even remotely eatable?

- Maha Vailo
just the second para, MahaVailo....

googling in : 'ethiopian food and recipes' gets me 1.73 million results in about a nano second...

and the very first one is this:
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Cookbook/Ethiopia.html

i am gonna look at it in-depth later on...but there's a huge amount of info available. what bandwidth are you using for internet?

It's haille-likely, you'll find something good there.


edit:
Are you a natural born worrier? lighten up, matey.
come this way. let me show you, a universe of fun and pizzas and cookies......woof woof!

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-02, 08:48 PM
Half a glass of wine a day may boost life expectancy by five years (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090429205609.htm) (maybe longer if you're at risk for certain cancers and heart disease). If you're one of those rare individuals who is not at risk for heart disease, certain cancers (lung, prostate, and many others), and a few other ailments, then drinking alcohol may have a slight negative impact on your life. For everyone else, the benefits probably outweigh the risks, and one cup of coffee a day will help prevent liver damage. (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/healthnews.php?newsid=45124)

So, what you're saying is I should mix my wine with my coffee? I've heard of people putting liquor in their coffee (the only way I ever take in any alcohol), but the thought of putting wine in one's coffee....eeeeeeewwww.

Also, does the red wine have to be expensive stuff, or will "two-buck chuck" work as well?

- Maha "whine list" Vailo

Fazor
2009-Jun-02, 08:52 PM
Personally Maha, I agree with your dad. If you do not already drink alcohol, I wouldn't start drinking wine for the supposed health benefits. Same with coffee.

And I certainly wouldn't mix a half-glass of wine with a half glass of coffee. Doesn't sound like an ideal flavor profile to me. :)

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-03, 04:08 AM
So, what you're saying is I should mix my wine with my coffee? I've heard of people putting liquor in their coffee (the only way I ever take in any alcohol), but the thought of putting wine in one's coffee....eeeeeeewwww.

Also, does the red wine have to be expensive stuff, or will "two-buck chuck" work as well?

- Maha "whine list" Vailo

IIRC, its the cheap stuff that has the most benefit, so don't feel you've got to splurge for the expensive stuff. And while I've not mixed red wine with coffee, one could probably come up with a good combination, but I certainly don't have the time or the resources to conduct the experiments.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-03, 04:16 AM
Personally Maha, I agree with your dad. If you do not already drink alcohol, I wouldn't start drinking wine for the supposed health benefits.

While the decision to drink or not is, of course, a personal one, I recall reading a piece about 20 years ago of two identical twin sisters in England. They lived all their lives together (neither of them married and they apparently spent almost no time away from one another). One of them developed Alzheimer's, the other did not. The only difference the doctor's could find between the two of them, in terms of diet, etc., was that the one who didn't get Alzheimer's drank wine. Dying of a heart attack, cancer, liver failure, etc., is one thing, having your brains rot out is another thing entirely.

Granted, this is a single instance, and I don't know off the top of my head if scientists ever found any supporting evidence to prove a connection between alcohol and Alzheimer's, but why take that chance?

Van Rijn
2009-Jun-03, 05:30 AM
Granted, this is a single instance, and I don't know off the top of my head if scientists ever found any supporting evidence to prove a connection between alcohol and Alzheimer's, but why take that chance?

Because there are other reasons to avoid alcohol. For someone who doesn't drink, why take the chance by starting?

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-03, 06:35 AM
Because there are other reasons to avoid alcohol. For someone who doesn't drink, why take the chance by starting?One could make the same argument about worshipping (or not) a particular deity. It comes down to the individual. If, for example, you're allergic to alcohol, or have a family history of addiction, then certainly the case against drinking is fairly strong.

Conversely, if one doesn't have an allergy to alcohol (or one is more worried about the health conditions which can be prevented by moderate consumption of alcohol than they are addiction), then the case is not necessarily so strong.

If Maha Vailo doesn't want to shell out the money necessary to buy the Resveratrol suppliments, his/her options are rather limited if they want to gain the benefits to be found in red wine. IIRC, if one does all the recommended (i.e. validated by scientific studies) things that will add years to one's life, you'll gain 15 years. In the US, life expectancy is around 72 years, so one could expect to live to be 87 (there are factors which affect this, of course, so any individual could expect to live a substantially different amount of time).

The truth is that there's no one single thing which can extend a person's life and reduce their risk for various diseases. Moderate exercise and a diet which is focused primarily on fruits, vegetables, and fish, will have more benefit than eating at McDonald's every day. It is, however, not always practical to avoid eating McDonald's and processed foods, so adding something to the diet when you can (perhaps red wine, pomegranate juice, cold water fish, etc.) will benefit you.

As I said, its a personal decision to drink alcohol or not, and I'm not advocating that a person go out and get hammered every day. I'm simply pointing out that if you're looking for a healthy diet, red wine can be a part of it. One could probably gain the same benefits as red wine by giving up on all meat, save fish, but how many people are willing/able to do that?

In my own case, I'm at a high risk for prostate cancer. One of the key factors, it turns out, in getting prostate cancer is dental health. At the moment, I don't have dental (or any health insurance for that matter), so I can't go to the dentist and get my teeth fixed. I can, however, brush my teeth religiously and drink cranberry juice (and red wine, as it turns out) to lower my risk of getting prostate cancer.

Truthfully, I doubt that doing any of those things will eliminate my risk of getting prostate cancer, but if they can stave it off until such time as I have health insurance (and can afford to pay for the necessary post-operative care) then I win. As I said, it is a personal decision, and making a blanket advocation that one should or should not drink alcohol is a bit nearsighted.

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-03, 10:48 AM
Fruit and veggies are cheap (but my parents don't buy enough), but fish is expensive. Any place where one could get fish on an extreme budget (besides a lake)?

- Maha Vailo

Gillianren
2009-Jun-03, 04:11 PM
Granted, this is a single instance, and I don't know off the top of my head if scientists ever found any supporting evidence to prove a connection between alcohol and Alzheimer's, but why take that chance?

Because alcohol tastes gross?

Believe me--dementia is one of my greatest fears. I think it's the worst possible way to die. But I also loathe the taste of alcohol.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-03, 04:24 PM
Because alcohol tastes gross?

Believe me--dementia is one of my greatest fears. I think it's the worst possible way to die. But I also loathe the taste of alcohol.

Then you're not drinking the right type of alcohol, and price is no indication of the taste. Each person's preferences will be subjective, of course, but the amount of variation of flavor between even red wines is as wide as the world. The trick to finding one you like is to determine what aspects of a wine you don't like (holding it in your mouth for a few moments to do this) and then reading a wine guide to find out which wines tend not to have those aspects.

If worst comes to worst, 4 ounces of wine is not that difficult to slug down. Its not enough to get you falling down drunk, and after a while, the effects of the alcohol on you won't even be noticeable.

Buttercup
2009-Jun-03, 04:35 PM
All things in moderation. :)

Nick Theodorakis
2009-Jun-03, 04:37 PM
Fruit and veggies are cheap (but my parents don't buy enough), but fish is expensive. Any place where one could get fish on an extreme budget (besides a lake)?

- Maha Vailo

From a tin. Herring, sardines, tuna, and anchovies are all fish relatively high in omega-3 fatty acids and are more budget-friendly than many. Also, fish lower in the food chain (i.e., the smaller ones) are lower in environmental toxins.

Nick

Fazor
2009-Jun-03, 08:21 PM
While the decision to drink or not is, of course, a personal one, I recall reading a piece about 20 years ago of two identical twin sisters in England. . . .

Firstly, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one shouldn't drink. I certainly do my fair share. I just don't think the decision should be made based on questionable at best reports of supposed benefits.

And as for your example; would you accept that type of evidence if it were arguing for something like free energy or a moon hoax? Anecdotal at best.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-03, 08:32 PM
Then you're not drinking the right type of alcohol, and price is no indication of the taste.

No. I mean the chemical compound. It makes no difference to me what it's in or even that "you can't taste the alcohol." I can. I don't like it.

Lurky
2009-Jun-03, 09:17 PM
I was reading an article on CNN on cutting your risk of heart disease (here (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/17/healthmag.slashrisk/index.html)) and one of the things it suggested was:


Sounds like a vegetarian asian diet including a small amount of brown rice... be careful of 'take away' asian though as it contains a lot of oil/fats.

And then add fresh pressed flax oil to your diet for the omega 3.

Skip the naan if you like Indian...and the curries that use cream in the sauce. Turmeric, garlic and fresh ginger root are good for you too...

I"d be careful of too much fish...mercury and other toxins.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-04, 01:36 AM
Firstly, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one shouldn't drink. I certainly do my fair share. I just don't think the decision should be made based on questionable at best reports of supposed benefits.Since when do numerous, double blind studies all with similar results equal "questionable"?


And as for your example; would you accept that type of evidence if it were arguing for something like free energy or a moon hoax? Anecdotal at best.
Were someone to provide something backed up by scientific studies, done by a number of different organizations (all staffed by highly educated professionals who publish their results in peer reviewed journals), then one would be a bit foolish to dismiss the claims out of hand. Note that my links were not to some guy's blog who claimed that his aunt/uncle/mother/father drank and lived to be XXX years old. They were to a respectable news organization which was recounting findings published in academic journals. That's not anectodal sources by any means. There's been at least dozens of studies which have all shown there's benefits to moderate consumption of alcohol. Can the moon hoaxers and free energy types say that?

Fazor
2009-Jun-04, 01:52 AM
I was talking about the "Twin sisters" "evidence". I do not see a link to a study of that case, no.

And even if they litterally did everything exactly the same; diet, excersize, environment, etc. except one drank and the other doesn't; can you say that there is a 100% chance that the drinker would have suffered from Alzheimers had she not drank?

I'm not saying I'm an expert in the field, or even have a more than average interest, but AFAIK, they don't yet know what causes Alheimers. I know there's genetic links, but that doesn't mean that both sisters would necessairly have suffered the illness, had one not drank.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-04, 01:59 AM
No. I mean the chemical compound. It makes no difference to me what it's in or even that "you can't taste the alcohol." I can. I don't like it.

You're not drinking the right stuff. In the US most people encounter alcohol during their late teens, when they're not drinking for flavor, but to get a buzz. In general, they tend to go for the stuff with the highest alcohol content, and in those drinks, its very easy to become sensitized to the taste of alcohol. To counteract this, you have to try different things, of varying degrees of flavor and alcohol content. Eventually, you'll find something where you don't "mind the taste" of the alcohol. You'll notice it, it'll still have that weird twang to it, but the other elements of it will be tasty enough that you won't care.

You'll never find all kinds of alcohol palatable, of course, but if you try, you can find something you like.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-04, 02:05 AM
I was talking about the "Twin sisters" "evidence". I do not see a link to a study of that case, no.

And even if they litterally did everything exactly the same; diet, excersize, environment, etc. except one drank and the other doesn't; can you say that there is a 100% chance that the drinker would have suffered from Alzheimers had she not drank?

I'm not saying I'm an expert in the field, or even have a more than average interest, but AFAIK, they don't yet know what causes Alheimers. I know there's genetic links, but that doesn't mean that both sisters would necessairly have suffered the illness, had one not drank.
But alcohol and a smaller chance of Alzheimer's are but one benefit. BTW, according to this page, there seems to be a recent study which shows that moderate alcohol consumption can prevent dementia. (http://alzheimers-disease.suite101.com/article.cfm/alcohol_and_dementia)
Researchers at London’s Imperial College combined data from a number of studies in a meta-analysis. With several cautions, they concluded “there is some evidence to suggest that limited alcohol intake in earlier adult life may be protective against incident dementia later.” (Peters, R, et al. Age and Ageing 2008)

Clearly binge drinking is out, as excessive consumption can cause dementia, but, again, it is not purely anectodal that moderate alcohol consumption can protect the brain. As I've said before, one must weigh the issue on an individual basis.

Jens
2009-Jun-04, 02:09 AM
No. I mean the chemical compound. It makes no difference to me what it's in or even that "you can't taste the alcohol." I can. I don't like it.

I can understand that; the compound itself is not pleasant by itself. Interestingly, though, I've read somewhere that we are evolutionarily programmed to like alcohol (as are bears and monkeys and other fruit-eating animals). Because apparently, the smell of alcohol is way to find ripe fruit. But it's the percentage. In fruit it never gets above a few percent.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-04, 02:19 AM
I can understand that; the compound itself is not pleasant by itself. Interestingly, though, I've read somewhere that we are evolutionarily programmed to like alcohol (as are bears and monkeys and other fruit-eating animals). Because apparently, the smell of alcohol is way to find ripe fruit. But it's the percentage. In fruit it never gets above a few percent.

There's some evidence that humans are "programmed" to seek out mind altering substances of all kinds. We make our own THC-like compounds, as well. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090420151240.htm)
U.S. and Brazilian scientists have discovered that the brain manufactures proteins that act like marijuana at specific receptors in the brain itself. This discovery may lead to new marijuana-like drugs for managing pain, stimulating appetite, and preventing marijuana abuse.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-04, 06:28 AM
You're not drinking the right stuff. In the US most people encounter alcohol during their late teens, when they're not drinking for flavor, but to get a buzz. In general, they tend to go for the stuff with the highest alcohol content, and in those drinks, its very easy to become sensitized to the taste of alcohol. To counteract this, you have to try different things, of varying degrees of flavor and alcohol content. Eventually, you'll find something where you don't "mind the taste" of the alcohol. You'll notice it, it'll still have that weird twang to it, but the other elements of it will be tasty enough that you won't care.

You'll never find all kinds of alcohol palatable, of course, but if you try, you can find something you like.

We went to Wine Country when I was a kid, and I had a few samples. (Apparently, they let you do that. Ah, 1982.) I've had champagne. I've had homebrew. And I can taste the alcohol in all of it, and I don't like the taste of alcohol. I don't want to waste the money experimenting around until I find one "I don't mind." I don't even like the smell of the stuff.

Fazor
2009-Jun-04, 01:20 PM
We went to Wine Country when I was a kid, and I had a few samples.
I had a sip of my dad's beer when I was a kid, and I hated that too. :)

But yeah; if you don't want to drink, why should you keep trying stuff? I don't like anchovies (except when used to stuff olives), I'm not going to keep buying different brands of them to see if I like any.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-04, 05:21 PM
I have a friend who does that with pomegranate juice. It's good for you, and he feels he ought to like it, so he keeps trying different brands. It's all pomegranate juice, of course, which is somewhat different, but still.

Jeff Root
2009-Jun-05, 01:04 AM
I pretty much like the pomegranate juice I've tried. Many years ago I had
some Minute Maid orange juice from frozen concentrate. It was horrible.
Worst orange juice I ever tasted. Just two weeks later, I tried another
can, and it was great -- best orange juice I ever tasted except maybe
fresh-squeezed when I was in California. (Minute Maid is/was from Florida,
I think.) So I can appreciate variations between samples.

I can't say I loathe the taste of alcohol. I haven't tasted enough of it to
loathe it. Detest it, ok. I still try it every once in a while, but a sip or
two tells me I don't want more. Only once did it affect me noticeably --
a slight headache a few minutes after drinking some wine.

Question: Frozen concentated grape juice often becomes liquid in my
refrigerator's inadequate freezer compartment. And it often tastes like
alcohol to my untrained palate. Is it actually alcohol? Or what?
Ketones? Aldehydes? It doesn't have any of the effects I'd expect
from alcohol, such as attacking my stomach a few seconds after
ingestion.

Question for Tuckerfan: Is there a correlation between liking or disliking
the smell of an alcoholic drink and liking or disliking the taste? If I think
it stinks, does that mean I won't like the taste?

If I'm already naturally fermen... demented, does that mean I don't need
to worry about dementia?

I like to think that fish are good for me. I like fish. Please don't tell me
they contain mercury. Thank you.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-05, 01:50 AM
I have a friend who does that with pomegranate juice. It's good for you, and he feels he ought to like it, so he keeps trying different brands. It's all pomegranate juice, of course, which is somewhat different, but still.There's a huge difference between pomegranate juice making and wine making. Pomegranate juice is all made pretty much in the same way, so the amount of variability between brands is going to be pretty low. Wine, OTOH, varies tremendously, both in terms of the kinds of grapes going into it (age of the grapevine is an important factor as well as the subtype of red/white/black) and how its produced. Even the strains of yeast being used can affect the flavor. As can the container the wine is aged in. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090430122046.htm)

And don't think that your tastebuds haven't changed since you were a kid. They have. Not only are they less sensative, but the kinds of things they're sensative to has changed. I saw a study sometime back (no, I'm not digging for it) which said that for evolutionary reasons, children's tastebuds were more receptive to certain flavors, but this changes as we get older, because our bodies needs change.

So, what you thought of the wines when you were a kid is not reflective of what you might think now.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-05, 02:18 AM
Question: Frozen concentated grape juice often becomes liquid in my
refrigerator's inadequate freezer compartment. And it often tastes like
alcohol to my untrained palate. Is it actually alcohol? Or what?
Ketones? Aldehydes? It doesn't have any of the effects I'd expect
from alcohol, such as attacking my stomach a few seconds after
ingestion.You quite possibly could have some alcohol forming. It'd be very, very weak, less than a percent or two, I'd imagine. BTW, one of the things that gives freshly baked bread (as in still warm from the oven) its appealing odor is the slight amount of alcohol that's formed.


Question for Tuckerfan: Is there a correlation between liking or disliking
the smell of an alcoholic drink and liking or disliking the taste? If I think
it stinks, does that mean I won't like the taste?Yes and no. Much of our sense of taste is actually the result of our sense of smell. Humans have only 5 flavors they can taste: Sweet, sour, salty, bitter and umami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami) (savory), anything else you taste is actually what your nose is smelling, and your brain is just too stupid to realize it (probably has something to do with humans being made the day before the weekend, but I digress). So if it smells bad to you, then its most likely going to taste bad to you. Of course, this won't always be the case. Certain cheeses smell awful, but taste just dandy. Reason being, the other flavors (particularly umami) override the scent. Saki doesn't have much of an odor other than alcohol, but you can quite clearly taste the rice in it when you drink it. (BTW, technically saki is a beer, since its made from rice, but its classified as a wine, since its cultural use is more akin to wine than beer.)


If I'm already naturally fermen... demented, does that mean I don't need
to worry about dementia?Actually, I've seen some studies which indicate that you've got a greater worry in such cases.


I like to think that fish are good for me. I like fish. Please don't tell me
they contain mercury. Thank you.Just don't eat a lot of tuna and you'll be fine.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-05, 08:06 AM
So, what you thought of the wines when you were a kid is not reflective of what you might think now.

How about what I thought of them a few years ago?

mugaliens
2009-Jun-06, 06:15 AM
bring on the lasagna, spaghetti, and pizza.. it's good for you this week.

Aha! But next week, it's going to give you a coronary!

Seriously, shop in the section where the vegetable food is still mostly alive. You will be, too.

mugaliens
2009-Jun-06, 06:17 AM
How about what I thought of them a few years ago?

True! Not like we humans are set in stone at 18 now, are we?

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-06, 07:05 AM
How about what I thought of them a few years ago?How'd you sample it? Did you drink it like you would a soft drink, or did you try to appreciate the flavor and block out the impressions you had as a child?

Gillianren
2009-Jun-06, 06:00 PM
The minute the sip hit my tongue, it tasted gross?

Tuckerfan, think for a minute about the quest to find some variety of red wine I like. Think about the number of bottles just in your local grocery store. Think about the price of them. Then, think about my income. All whopping $674 a month of it. Think about how likely I am to, yes, waste money on the search for wine that doesn't make me gag.

HenrikOlsen
2009-Jun-06, 09:08 PM
On top of you not liking it, I would expect alcohol to be counter-indicated for a lot of your medicine as well.

Jeff Root
2009-Jun-07, 01:50 AM
Gillian,

If you were to try out a lot of different wines, I can't imagine buying
entire bottles to do it. I've never bought any alcoholic beverage in my life.
Someone else has paid for it every single time! You could do that, too.
It might limit your selection some, but probably not enough to matter.

Ask for a taste or a sip, not even a whole glass.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Tobin Dax
2009-Jun-07, 01:53 AM
On top of you not liking it, I would expect alcohol to be counter-indicated for a lot of your medicine as well.
That's why I just stopped drinking when I started taking anti-seizure medication.
I never drank much to begin with, only socially and nothing more than four drinks. I really dislike the taste champagne and white wines. I remember this the hard way every time I'm at a wedding.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-07, 06:01 AM
On top of you not liking it, I would expect alcohol to be counter-indicated for a lot of your medicine as well.

That, too. (Contraindicated.) I grant you that a half-glass of wine probably won't interfere with, oh, the Vicodin I'm about to take all that much, but my Lamictal has the little label on it saying to avoid mixing it with alcohol.

Tuckerfan
2009-Jun-07, 06:22 AM
The minute the sip hit my tongue, it tasted gross?

Tuckerfan, think for a minute about the quest to find some variety of red wine I like. Think about the number of bottles just in your local grocery store. Think about the price of them. Then, think about my income. All whopping $674 a month of it. Think about how likely I am to, yes, waste money on the search for wine that doesn't make me gag.

First of all, you have to think of wine like you do of any component of a meal. You wouldn't plunk down for a steak, and then proceed to smother it with ketchup (well, you might but I wouldn't want to know you if you did). So you shouldn't treat wine, or any other alcohol (worth drinking). Think, for a moment, what kind of beverages you like to drink. If you like, for example, things that are fruity in flavor, then checking a wine guide for wines that taste fruity will considerably narrow down the possible choices. If you shave off those that are stupidly expensive (say $20+/bottle), then you cut down even more.

Given that you're on Vicodin (something I didn't know about until you mentioned it), alcohol is pretty much contraindicated. If you read the reviews by a doctor of House, MD on Polite Dissent (http://www.politedissent.com/house_pd.html), you'll see one of the things he complains about is House mixing booze with Vicodin, since it can really damage your liver. (BTW, one of the things that you don't have to worry about that Vicodin causes is prostate problems. Aren't you lucky. No prostate means you have to worry a lot about UTIs, but you can pop all the Vicodin you want and not have to worry about being unable to pee.)

BTW, I don't earn much more than $674/mo. myself (which is about half of what I used to make), so I completely understand about being on a tight budget.

Paracelsus
2009-Jun-07, 11:45 AM
I was reading an article on CNN on cutting your risk of heart disease (here (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/07/17/healthmag.slashrisk/index.html)) and one of the things it suggested was:



Now in order to make this easier on me, I'd like to know what kind of ethnic food best resembles the diet in the profile. Foods that fit the diet that are cheap would also be much appreciated.

- Maha Vailo

Rabbit food. Grass, sticks, leaves, twigs, and hay all fit the profile. ;)

Seriously, just hit the produce aisle, and eat what you find with a minimum of preparation, and you'll be ok.

Delvo
2009-Jun-07, 12:24 PM
I've been wondering for years why it is that, of all foods and beverages out there that people could just not like or decide not to consume for any other reason, alcohol is the one about which the consumers gets so pushy with the non-consumers. I don't like cheesecake, but I never have anyone (or anygroup) pestering me about what wonderful miraculous health benefits it contains, how insignificant its health drawbacks are or how easily they can be managed, or how sure they are that if I put enough effort (and money) into it and kept stubbornly trying and trying no matter how many failed experiments I've already done, sooner or later I'd achieve the all-important goal of finding a cheesecake that doesn't taste like cheesecake. Yet with alcohol, I keep seeing it happen over and over again.

Paracelsus
2009-Jun-07, 01:38 PM
That, too. (Contraindicated.) I grant you that a half-glass of wine probably won't interfere with, oh, the Vicodin I'm about to take all that much, but my Lamictal has the little label on it saying to avoid mixing it with alcohol.

I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't have my nightly glass (or two) of wine. Give me a choice between having to give up dessert or alcohol, and I'd gladly give up sweets.

Gillianren
2009-Jun-07, 06:01 PM
I've been wondering for years why it is that, of all foods and beverages out there that people could just not like or decide not to consume for any other reason, alcohol is the one about which the consumers gets so pushy with the non-consumers. I don't like cheesecake, but I never have anyone (or anygroup) pestering me about what wonderful miraculous health benefits it contains, how insignificant its health drawbacks are or how easily they can be managed, or how sure they are that if I put enough effort (and money) into it and kept stubbornly trying and trying no matter how many failed experiments I've already done, sooner or later I'd achieve the all-important goal of finding a cheesecake that doesn't taste like cheesecake. Yet with alcohol, I keep seeing it happen over and over again.

Especially after you've explained that the act of the stuff touching your tongue triggers your gag reflex. It's gotten to be a very good explanation for why I won't taste people's homebrew anymore.

And, actually, I've had people try to convince me that I should try the food I've just said I don't like one more time, just to be sure. Happened at a wedding yesterday afternoon, in fact. ("Come on--just try it!" "Why, do you want me to vomit all over the table?" "Oh. Um, never mind.") However, my boyfriend is quite content with the fact that I don't like cheesecake, either--more for him.

Maha Vailo
2009-Jun-11, 01:58 AM
Seriously, shop in the section where the vegetable food is still mostly alive. You will be, too.

What do you mean by "mostly alive"?

- Maha Vailo

Gillianren
2009-Jun-11, 02:25 AM
What do you mean by "mostly alive"?

You can't yet go through its pockets, looking for loose change.