PDA

View Full Version : Steve Fossett not dead?



tbm
2008-Aug-03, 01:22 AM
Doesn't it seem kinda odd to be blaming Fossett (or giving him credit) when apparently they just can't find what happened to him?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2462912/Adventurer-Steve-Fossett-'may-have-faked-his-own-death'.html

tbm

Neverfly
2008-Aug-03, 01:40 AM
Ok, so - a search and rescue worker is miffed cuz she couldn't find him and so that somehow means 'conspiracy' in which he faked his own death and an insurance agent whose best interest is to not pay out wants to agree.

Absurd. Make claims once you have proof that he's still alive. (Not you tbm.)

Celestial Mechanic
2008-Aug-03, 04:26 AM
Maybe he's just pining for the fjords. :D

Van Rijn
2008-Aug-03, 05:41 AM
This is a dead Fossett, he has ceased to be. :whistle:

Jens
2008-Aug-03, 07:23 AM
It's an ex-Fossett!

mugaliens
2008-Aug-03, 11:25 AM
From the article:


However, Lieutenant Colonel Cynthia Ryan of the US Civil Air Patrol has said Fossett, whose body or plane was never found, could still be alive.

She said: "I've been doing this search and rescue for 14 years. Fossett should have been found.

Oh, posh! I'm a member of the Civial Air Patrol (currently non-active, as I'm overseas, though we do have one local squadron).

I've also lived, flown, backpacked, and overnighted in that neck of the woods where Fosset disappeared. It's amazing what's out there.

Her next comment tells all:


"It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do."

Are those the six other planes no one was able to find before?

Hmmm... I wonder...


Ok, so - a search and rescue worker is miffed cuz she couldn't find him and so that somehow means 'conspiracy' in which he faked his own death and an insurance agent whose best interest is to not pay out wants to agree.

Absurd. Make claims once you have proof that he's still alive. (Not you tbm.)

Ok. Make that, "I wonder no more."

It's all probably the result of some heavy campaign-contributing, er, "taxpaying" businessmen who are...

putting the heat on their congressman who're..

putting the heat on the AF who're...

putting the heat on the CAP who're...

putting the heat on the SAR OIC who's...

flipping a lid as she can't really roll it downhill any further, so...

she concocts this "insurance money" fiasco in cahoots with the insurer so that...

both of them get off the hook.

geonuc
2008-Aug-03, 11:39 AM
Keep in mind an extraordinary effort was made in searching for Fossett. Not only the many hours of air and ground search, but Google's satellite image comparison project. Sure, it's not a stretch to think that all those people looking could miss the crash site, but you certainly can't make a comparison with whatever effort was put forward for those other six planes they found.

mugaliens
2008-Aug-03, 12:04 PM
From the article:


There are also a number of anomalies that question whether Fossett's plane ever crashed.

Oh, really? And what might those be?


Only one witness, a pilot at hotel magnate Barron Hilton's flying ranch near Reno, claims to have seen him take off that day.

And the FSS Wx briefer with whom he filed his flight plan and who gave him the Wx briefing he received?

And the FSS with whom he opened his flight plan midair?

And the tower controller who gave him takeoff clearance / or the other pattern aircraft and FBO monitoring Unicom?

And the enroute controller with whom he called for flight following?

Evidently, someone hasn't been doing their homework, and I'm beginning to suspect it's the reporter of dubious integrity who wrote the sensationalistic article.


That witness claims Fossett asked him to prepare the plane for take off, even though he had never allowed anyone else to do this before.

Really. And that pilot, I presume, has been present at all of Fossett's prior preflight inspections...


Fossett also apparently claimed he was going to scout for locations for a land speed record attempt...

Notable.


...but he supposedly took off with no emergency equipment.

Not prudent, but aside from an extra bottle of water, that's a common occurrence among desert fliers.


The choice of plane was also a baffling one - a Bellanca Citabria Super Decathlon...

That's a fine aircraft. My flight instructor owned one, and I'm qualified in that nice little taildragger - lightweight, well-powered, very strong, and well-suited for it's FAA-approved acrobatic status. It's +/- G capability makes it perfect for flying in the strong up/down drafts of the Southwest.


...which, according to risk assessor Robert Davis said was constructed from a steel and wood frame, but actually covered in fabric, making it easy to dismantle.

I can "dismantle" and hide just about any light airplane in less than five minutes simply by taking a gas-powered sheet-metal saw to the wing roots and hauling the wing halves and the plane, tail first, into the back of a semi. There's nothing special about the Super-Decathlon.


Davis conducted an eight-month investigation for insurers Lloyd's of London, said to face a 25 million payout on Fossett's death.

He said: "What I've strived to find out is what happened to this man in the run-up to his disappearance, why did he disappear?

Because that's what happens in the mountains, particularly ones as rugged as those in the Southwest, with tons of nasty fissures galore.


"I discovered that there is absolutely no proof that Steve Fossett is actually dead.

Really? "No proof?" You mean other than the fact that at least one eyewitness saw him take off and the fact that he never arrived and has been missing ever since?


I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm a man who deals in facts, and I don't really care if he is alive or dead, it make no difference to me.

I wonder if Lloyds paid up on Amelia Erhardt. After all, aside from the fact that there was an eyewitness that saw them depart, there was "no proof" of her and Frank's demise, either.


"What I am interested in is the truth - and a proper criminal investigation of this man's disappearance was never undertaken by law enforcement or officials in the state of Nevada."

The truth is that he's dead.

And "proper criminal investigations" are only launched when there is evidence of foul play. Since at least one witness saw him take off at a time, date, location, and reason he'd previously announced to friends and family, since he announced an intended destination, and since he didn't arrive, and since there is no evidence of foul play, there is therefore no impetus to launch a "proper criminal investigation."

If the insurance rep is interested in a "proper criminal investigation," he'll have to turn up evidence of foul play.

By the way, there was an investigation into whether there was any evidence of foul play. Result: there was no evidence of foul play.

LaurelHS
2008-Aug-03, 01:00 PM
Nancy Lieder thinks he's being held at Area 51 and that he got himself captured on purpose. :rolleyes:

Kaptain K
2008-Aug-03, 04:55 PM
Nancy Lieder thinks he's being held at Area 51 and that he got himself captured on purpose. :rolleyes:

Well, that settles it!

novaderrik
2008-Aug-03, 04:56 PM
Nancy Lieder thinks he's being held at Area 51 and that he got himself captured on purpose. :rolleyes:
it makes as much sense as anything else i've read about this event.

KaiYeves
2008-Aug-03, 05:03 PM
The article makes horrible claims about this poor man and they ought to be ashamed of themselves for doing so.

TheHalcyonYear
2008-Aug-03, 07:39 PM
Actually I've got it on the best authority that he's joined up with Elvis.

BigDon
2008-Aug-03, 09:39 PM
The article makes horrible claims about this poor man and they ought to be ashamed of themselves for doing so.

Miss Kai, since the end of the cold war and the disbanding of most effective world news organizations, being found to have a shame node in ones head has been grounds for dismissal in most of these businesses. Simply because anybody who does have a sense of shame might not bring you back that one photo that WILL bring your magazine/paper/tv show ratings.

Don't believe me? I bet it wouldn't take me two hours to find pictures of every female member of British Royalty who's ever gotten out of a vehicle awkwardly or ever had a wardrobe malfunction in the light of day. Were I a Brit I would consider this a grave national embarrassment.

(Whoops, there goes that shame node again. Get back in your cage! Hah! Simba! <crack> Hah!)

tbm
2008-Aug-03, 10:00 PM
This is from another forum in which I am discussing this subject. The quotes are another forum member's thoughts, what follows is my reply.

"....they found SIX OTHER AIRCRAFT while looking for his. He let someone else pre-flight his plane which up untill that point he NEVER,ever did.Then he flew a plane that day that could be easily dis-mantled.What other conclusion is there?"



Sure, they found 6 other planes, but how many others did they miss that were in (or out of) the search area, including perhaps Fosset's? Perhaps, being a little unfamiliar with the Bellanca, he let someone a little more so preflight it.

Perhaps he chose the plane for other characteristics than it being easy to dismantle:

Fossett was on a pleasure flight when he vanished and not looking for a dry lake bed to use as a surface on which to set the world land speed record as initially reported.

The Super Decathlon is a popular and highly acrobatic light plane.

http://members.tripod.com/~aerobaticman/decathlon.htm

Maybe he was just aerobatting around and augered in at an inconspicuous spot.

Maybe the insurance company is looking for a way out of paying out.

I just don't see a motive for the guy to make himself disappear.

tbm

jfribrg
2008-Aug-04, 06:25 PM
The article makes horrible claims about this poor man and they ought to be ashamed of themselves for doing so.

Emphasis mine. I'm sure he's been called many things over the years, but poor is probably not one of them. As much money as he is worth, the 25 million in insurance seems pitiful. I'm sure he made more than that on an annual basis.

The insurance angle is interesting, but I doubt very much if that is what happened. Something like Payne Stewart's plane might be more plausable. If there was a loss of pressure in the cockpit and he was at a high enough altitude, then he could have been unconscious for a very long, distance (and no fire when it crashed because there was no fuel), or crashed into the side of a mountain.

Fazor
2008-Aug-04, 07:20 PM
Yeah; when I first saw the headline that he might be alive I got excited. I thought they found some evidence that he crashed/landed, then took off to try to find saftey.... or course, with the amount of time that's elapsed I doubt he would have survived that long anyway.

But then I read the article, and as the rest of you here can tell, it's nothing but conjecture by some bitter rescue worker and an insurance company looking to not pay out on a large claim.

The "Well they found six other planes!" argument is ignorant--you can't tell me that when those pilots went missing no one ever looked for them. They didn't find them until this investigation, so if they missed those planes (and who knows how many others are still left undiscovered), then why is it so hard to believe they couldn't find Fosset's wreck?

Though after reading that a large portion of the plane was made from cloth, I formulated another likely culprit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothra).

geonuc
2008-Aug-04, 08:06 PM
The "Well they found six other planes!" argument is ignorant--you can't tell me that when those pilots went missing no one ever looked for them. They didn't find them until this investigation, so if they missed those planes (and who knows how many others are still left undiscovered), then why is it so hard to believe they couldn't find Fosset's wreck?
As I stated earlier, whatever you may conclude about the rest of the story and who's saying what, it is improper to equate the intensity of the search for Fossett with whatever went on when the pilots of those other six planes went missing. The search for Fossett was extraordinary and perhaps unprecedented.

Fazor
2008-Aug-05, 01:43 PM
As I stated earlier, whatever you may conclude about the rest of the story and who's saying what, it is improper to equate the intensity of the search for Fossett with whatever went on when the pilots of those other six planes went missing. The search for Fossett was extraordinary and perhaps unprecedented.

But there's still nothing to indicate how effective the search was, and it's just as impossible to say that they would have found every wreck.

There's always going to be suspicion; particularly if the "troubles" mentioned were true. But without evidence, its nothing more than a hunch... and in my opinion was wildly inappropriate to go public in such a manner as they did.

geonuc
2008-Aug-05, 04:10 PM
But there's still nothing to indicate how effective the search was, and it's just as impossible to say that they would have found every
I agree completely. My point was that any analysis of the situation with Fossett that ignores the intensity of the search for him, as compared to the typical missing plane searches, will be flawed.

Graybeard6
2008-Aug-05, 05:01 PM
. . . Something like Payne Stewart's plane might be more plausable. If there was a loss of pressure in the cockpit and he was at a high enough altitude, then he could have been unconscious for a very long, distance (and no fire when it crashed because there was no fuel), or crashed into the side of a mountain.
The Decathlon is unpressurized and has a service ceiling of 15,800 ft. FAA rules require oxygen to be on board if you fly above 10K ft (IIRC).

mugaliens
2008-Aug-05, 09:14 PM
Something like Payne Stewart's plane might be more plausable. If there was a loss of pressure in the cockpit and he was at a high enough altitude, then he could have been unconscious for a very long, distance (and no fire when it crashed because there was no fuel), or crashed into the side of a mountain.

No pressurized cockpit.

Very little terrain around which he would have been unable to fly without keeping it below 10,000 ft MSL.

That airplane doesn't possess an autopilot, though it's fairly self-righting, and when trimmed it'll fly in circles.

It's conceivable that he simply fell asleep at the yoke and when it ran out of fuel...

...but when you retard the throttle on a properly trimmed airplane like that to idle, it pitches downwards sharply and rapidly builds speed. Usually the airplane will recover to some semblance of normal flight on it's own. If it doesn't it could exceed the Vne (never exceed) speed, lose a wing or two, and the rest is history.

If that had happened, however, I strongly believe they would have found a relatively intact wing lying somewhere on top of the dirt, as detached wings tend to butterfly to the ground.

slang
2008-Aug-06, 08:18 PM
Why all this focusing on malfunctions or weird circumstances? Does being famous make a pilot infallible? Not claiming anything.. just saying don't exclude pilot error just because he was very experienced.


Also, why is the hilarious I Will Prove The Moon Landings Were Hoaxed (http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-theories/34711-i-will-prove-moon-landings-were-hoaxed.html) thread in the Similar Threads box?

publiusr
2008-Aug-08, 07:44 PM
Well, if I ran up a bunch of debt on countless aviation stunts--I might want to fake my death to get out of paying the bills...

BigDon
2008-Aug-09, 08:37 PM
A billion in debt? Due to aviation stunts? Who is he, United Airlines?

(You were kidding, I know)

mugaliens
2008-Aug-09, 10:20 PM
Why all this focusing on malfunctions or weird circumstances? Does being famous make a pilot infallible? Not claiming anything.. just saying don't exclude pilot error just because he was very experienced.

Quite true. It wasn't but a couple years ago we lost one of our more celebrated astronauts, Scott Crossfield, in a light plane accident on April 19, 2006. He was a highly experienced aviator.

BigDon
2008-Aug-09, 11:00 PM
My father was on a crash crew for a while and he saw the son of the man who developed the F4U meet his end delivering the latest model.

One of the main mounts wouldn't extend. As this was the lastest and greatist version, he didn't want to damage it so he tried every trick in the book to get the wheel down. Even stuff my father didn't think you could do with a Corsair, like go into a steep dive and then at the point you pull up "wag" the wings.

When it was determined it just wasn't going to happen he dumped his fuel, drew up the other wheel and bellied it in.

Whereupon he slid all the way off the end of the runway, flipped, and ended up with his wings on either side of a full drainage ditch with his cockpit submerged. He drowned on an open throat mike.

jlgrant
2008-Aug-10, 12:34 AM
He's just resting!

[edit]
Wow, my skimming skills lack of late. I was resoundingly beaten to this punchline.

CJSF
2008-Aug-10, 12:45 AM
Emphasis mine. I'm sure he's been called many things over the years, but poor is probably not one of them. As much money as he is worth, the 25 million in insurance seems pitiful. I'm sure he made more than that on an annual basis.

The insurance angle is interesting, but I doubt very much if that is what happened. Something like Payne Stewart's plane might be more plausable. If there was a loss of pressure in the cockpit and he was at a high enough altitude, then he could have been unconscious for a very long, distance (and no fire when it crashed because there was no fuel), or crashed into the side of a mountain.


You DO realize "poor man" was meant in an entirely different context, right? As in an unfortunate fate?

CJSF

BigDon
2008-Aug-10, 02:16 AM
You DO realize "poor man" was meant in an entirely different context, right? As in an unfortunate fate?

CJSF

Death being, "The Great Equalizer" and all.

I was going to post that, but didn't want to look like the "sensitive" one. :)

mugaliens
2008-Aug-10, 09:28 PM
He drowned on an open throat mike.

?

Did he choke on the throat mike? Or did he drown in the water from the ditch?

Throat mics are a snap away from removal, and if that doesn't work, you unplug it from the comm cord and exit with throat mic still attached. The comm cord connect is a simple four-connector plug, but identical in shape to the standard 1/4" plugs used for guitars, amps, and stereo headphones (into receivers, not your walkman or MP3 player).

My point is that it's a pressure connection, and a simple tug is all it takes for the plug to come out of the comm cord. So, in a hasty exit, when one forgets to disconnect (as I've done... a-he... :whistle:), there's no neck-breaking reminder to unplug - it simply unplugs itself for you.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Aug-10, 10:35 PM
I read it as "He was trapped and drowned while wearing an operating mike that was transmitting to the tower", not as "He was trapped underwater by a throat mike he couldn't remove."

KaiYeves
2008-Aug-10, 11:09 PM
The origin story in Marvel Adventures: Iron Man reminds me of Fossett's disapearance somewhat. I had to stop reading it in the middle when I first picked it up. Except, of course, that Stark didn't die.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 01:02 AM
I read it as "He was trapped and drowned while wearing an operating mike that was transmitting to the tower", not as "He was trapped underwater by a throat mike he couldn't remove."

Thank you Henrik,

I seem to be having communication issues lately.

It's even worse in person, where I can't sit and look at what I'm about to say. Hopefully it's not "that time" yet.

tbm
2008-Aug-11, 01:40 AM
I read it as "He was trapped and drowned while wearing an operating mike that was transmitting to the tower", not as "He was trapped underwater by a throat mike he couldn't remove."

I read it the same way. And was very much was moved by what the tower most obviously heard. Very sad........

tbm

mugaliens
2008-Aug-11, 04:39 PM
I assume he was trapped by the upside-down airplane pinning him inside the cockpit...

aurora
2008-Oct-02, 02:16 PM
plane found (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/02/steve.fossett.search/index.html)

NEOWatcher
2008-Oct-02, 02:23 PM
plane found (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/02/steve.fossett.search/index.html)
In other words, to keep with this thread...this line is important.


Sheriff says crash appears so severe that finding survivors is unlikely

Plural? I guess in the context that it still needs to be confirmed that it's his plane.

hhEb09'1
2008-Oct-02, 03:33 PM
However, Lieutenant Colonel Cynthia Ryan of the US Civil Air Patrol has said Fossett, whose body or plane was never found, could still be alive.

She said: "I've been doing this search and rescue for 14 years. Fossett should have been found. Has anybody interviewed the Lieutenant yet?

Neverfly
2008-Oct-02, 04:26 PM
Has anybody interviewed the Lieutenant yet?

Heh.. Good point. I had almost forgotten about those geniuses.

pghnative
2008-Oct-02, 04:46 PM
Sheriff says crash appears so severe that finding survivors is unlikely Plural? I guess in the context that it still needs to be confirmed that it's his plane.

Actually, it is bad paraphrasing on the part of CNN. The sheriff's quote (according to the article) was

"so severe I doubt someone would've walked away from it," the sheriff said.