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beskeptical
2003-Oct-05, 03:35 AM
This came up in another thread but needs a separate discussion. Here we are on a science oriented astronomy board but often the myths fly in from other fields. If you make a claim such as Teflon produces toxic fumes, kills pet birds, and flakes off in your food to poison you, you really should

1) Be clear what you mean.

I thought it sounded a bit outrageous that teflon cookware was dangerous to birds. The post did say, "if overheated" so there was an attempt to modify the claim, but it still left the impression that common overheating would cause fumes to be emitted. So I went checking. I looked at both the Dupont site and the MSDS.

From the MSDS, (material safety data sheet), for teflon:

Hazardous Decomposition Products: Carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen fluoride.

Decomposition Temperature:750 deg F
http://www.skylighter.com/msds/TELFLON%20MSDS.htm

From the MSDS of Woven Nylon Teflon Liner as an example that teflon is combined with other products that add to the problem:

Teflon above 250 C (Melting Point: 482 F, 250 C.) can evolve toxic gaseous metals.

Hazardous Decomposition
Nylon -ammonia
Carbon monoxide
Hydrogen cyanide
Aldehydes

Unusual Fire Hazards: Teflon-toxic fluorine compounds can evolve in fire.
http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/w/woven_nylon_teflon_liner.htm

From the Dupont site:

Health Concerns

Question
What temperature should I cook on with my non-stick pans?

Answer
Low or medium heat is recommended for cookware with DuPont non-stick surfaces, however, the coatings can withstand temperatures up to 500F, which is well above what is recommended for frying and baking. Furthermore, the coatings will not show significant decomposition until temperatures reach 600F, but it is unlikely that the cookware could reach such temperatures without burning the food to an inedible state. However, they can be reached if an empty pan is left on a hot burner or in the oven. If that is so, the performance of the non-stick could be affected. However, if you have only accidentally left it on high heat for a relatively short period of time, the performance of your non-stick will most likely be unaffected.
http://teflon.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/teflon.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php

Nonstick cookware, with polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) coating, can also emit fumes harmful to birds, if cookware is accidentally heated to high temperatures, exceeding approximately 500F (260C) well above the temperatures needed for frying or baking. In addition, PTFE coated drip pans should be avoided because even in normal use they reach extremely high temperatures and can emit fumes that are hazardous to birds. A simple rule of thumb is: never keep your pet bird in the kitchen.http://www.dupont.com/teflon/newsroom/bird.html

If you are talking about an accidental fire or near fire, I imagine lots of items will emit smoke and fumes that can be harmful to birds.


and, 2) Check your facts.

Again from the Dupont site:

Question
If the non-stick coating on my pan flakes off and I eat it, will it cause me harm?

Answer
If a DuPont non-stick coating flakes off and is eaten, it poses no health threat. It is inert, which means it passes through the body and is not absorbed. It is not harmful.
http://teflon.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/teflon.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php

I realize the Dupont site might be a bit predjudiced. There were quite a few sites on google listing teflon as toxic to birds but I didn't find any of them to be referenced to any studies, nor did they mention what temperatures were needed. Again, the post with this claim did say 'high temperatures' so I don't want to understate that. But the claims that teflon cookware is dangerous really should be backed up with some scientific data.

I can't recall reading any medical literature that teflon flakes from pans were absorbed. The choice to use cast iron because one may not have had time to investigate teflon, or one doesn't believe enough research has been done is legitimate. But the auto pilot claim that iron, being natural, is better than teflon, being unnatural is not good science.

BTW, there is some early data suggesting excess iron may play a role in Alzheimers disease.

Humphrey
2003-Oct-05, 04:42 AM
Yah the birds was me. 8-[


The reason that i said that was thet every book on birds i have and every vet i have visited have warned me specifically about leaving a pan on the burner for a long time without anything on it and the bird nearby. I did not say it was harmful to humans in any way. I doubt it would be.

But you are right beskep. Other arisols do harm birds. Like most fumes harm them. It is just that most people do not think teflon will emit a gass if burnt at a high temp.

SOrry if i confused anyone and tyhank you very much beskep foir looking up that information. :-)


Dan

mutant
2003-Oct-05, 05:25 AM
Compared to humans birds are very succeptible to certain chemicals and fumes and exotic birds are even worse. Miners used to carry canaries in cages down in the coal mines with them to detect fumes. The birds died and the miners beat it quick to the surface. We have two parrots and are very careful where they are kept in the house and kept away from the kitchen area entirely.

gethen
2003-Oct-05, 01:37 PM
I make no claims for the toxicity of the teflon that flakes off in your food as it's cooking. I just don't like seeing dark flakes in the food. I will admit that I haven't used teflon for years now, and that it has probably improved. However, cast iron, properly seasoned and properly used is just as non-stick as teflon anyway. And it lasts forever.
I did have an aquaintance, now deceased, who had a very gravelly voice since childhood, attributed to having been stuck in his highchair while a teflon pan on the stove burned. That's what he said. Don't know if it's true or not.

Jigsaw
2003-Oct-05, 04:27 PM
The reason that i said that was thet every book on birds i have and every vet i have visited have warned me specifically about leaving a pan on the burner for a long time without anything on it and the bird nearby.
I received the same warnings when I acquired my parakeet, and I never had the feeling that it was an Urban Legend--it was always expressed quite specifically, and from reputable sources: "The fumes from an over-heated Teflon pan are toxic to birds, so don't plan on setting up your bird's cage in the kitchen."

This warning is usually found in the bird magazines addressing the issue of working bird owners who desire "quality time" with Tweety in the kitchen after they get home, while they cook supper.

tuffel999
2003-Oct-05, 05:46 PM
BTW, there is some early data suggesting excess iron may play a role in Alzheimers disease.

In school we were taught that iron was quite toxic by itself and tha twas part of the reason for the formation of the heme group. Yes/No/Maybe so? I actually still have the powerpoint lecture notes from that Biochemistry class on my computer.




:D

gethen
2003-Oct-05, 10:33 PM
BTW, there is some early data suggesting excess iron may play a role in Alzheimers disease.

Now this is scary. But I'm thinking of my mother (age 87), her very recently deceased twin brother, and her older sister (age 90) who all grew up using cast iron, and are still using it. And all are still pretty sharp. I've got to go with the odds--at least the odds for my own family.

Sammy
2003-Oct-06, 03:51 AM
The reason that i said that was thet every book on birds i have and every vet i have visited have warned me specifically about leaving a pan on the burner for a long time without anything on it and the bird nearby.
I received the same warnings when I acquired my parakeet, and I never had the feeling that it was an Urban Legend--it was always expressed quite specifically, and from reputable sources: "The fumes from an over-heated Teflon pan are toxic to birds, so don't plan on setting up your bird's cage in the kitchen."

This warning is usually found in the bird magazines addressing the issue of working bird owners who desire "quality time" with Tweety in the kitchen after they get home, while they cook supper.

They are all repeating each other, based on a hysterical press release some years ago -- same as the mindless promulgation of the "need' for "8 glasses of water a day." Any hazards in the kitchen stem from the use of household cleaners, badly adjusted gas stoves, and poor ventilation. My cockatiel spent 20 happy years in a corner of out kitchen (typical lifespan is 15 years). He was moved only when we used oven cleaners and the like. Obviously, that one sample does not constitute a valid proof, but I am aware of many happy kichen-dwelling birds with long lifespans. As with so many things, common sense is a good guide.

Sammy
2003-Oct-06, 03:57 AM
BTW, there is some early data suggesting excess iron may play a role in Alzheimers disease.

Now this is scary. But I'm thinking of my mother (age 87), her very recently deceased twin brother, and her older sister (age 90) who all grew up using cast iron, and are still using it. And all are still pretty sharp. I've got to go with the odds--at least the odds for my own family.

I'm not up to speed on any iron/Alzheimer's suspected connection, but there was a similar scare re aulminium/Alzheimers in the 70s/80s. Despite the fact that it was totally disproved, it lives on today in "health" magazines and on the net. Not too long ago, our dear Martha Stewart, guesting on a PBS radio show, warned people not to cook food in aluminium foil because of the dangers of Alzheimers; needless to say, a note to the radio show producers did NOT result in a retraction.

mike alexander
2003-Oct-06, 05:58 AM
I would only add that macroscopic pieces of polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE, Teflon) have to be among the most chemically inert things ever made. I would unhesitatingly eat some (I mean, if I had to, not just because it tastes good). The carbon-fluorine bond is among the strongest covalent bonds around and no stomach acid or enzyme is going to break down PTFE.

Now, burning any fluorine compound or heating it above decomp temp will release nastier stuff, as pointed out earlier, perhaps the worst being hydrogen fluoride. HF is particularly bad because it can cause nasty burns and tissue necrosis, but the effect isn't immediate, like, say, nitric acid.

I was about to say that the amount of PTFE on a typical pan is so small that the total amount of possible HF release would be miniscule, but I'm going to hold on that for a bit. Let's see... to a rough approximation, PTFE is about 75% fluorine by mass (assuming basically CF2 repeating units in the polymer). Molecular weight of HF = 20 amu. So if there was 1 gm PTFE on the pan and you burned it all (quant conversion of all fluorine to HF) you get about... 35 millimoles HF... roughly 0.7 liters gas at STP....take a small, poorly ventilated kitchen, say 10x12x8, about 1000 ft^3, which is about 16,000 liters... or about 1 part in 20,000 HF , about 50 ppm, again assuming 1 gram PTFE coating, complete conversion of all Fluorine to HF, complete mixing and no ventilation.

I have a hunch the total coating is closer to 100 mg, but in reality it doesn't sound like a real situation could produce much HF, unless you hold your face right over the pan and inhale.

This is all in my head on a Sunday night, though.

Sammy
2003-Oct-06, 06:17 PM
mike alexander wrote


I have a hunch the total coating is closer to 100 mg, but in reality it doesn't sound like a real situation could produce much HF, unless you hold your face right over the pan and inhale.

As they used to say on "Saturday Night," "Don't you hate it when you do that?"

beskeptical
2003-Oct-06, 06:44 PM
Very good responses. I'm glad you are all thinking these things through a little more carefully than the other thread suggested. :D

The iron and Alzheimers research was, to my knowledge, only suggestive and no where near conclusive. I only wanted to make the point that 'natural' was not the eqivilent of 'safer'. As to aluminum, I have avoided it when convenient only because I haven't had time to look into its risks further. I use it when it is the only clean pan left, (maybe occasionally :wink: ).

Iron makes wonderful cookware, Gethen, if you have the time to properly maintain it. And, any risk of excess iron has not been established. In addition, even if a risk is established, cast iron cookware has not been implicated. I have only recommended that my female patients past menopause not take extra iron fortified vitamins unless they have been anemic on blood tests.

But there are plenty of 90 year old smokers, that doesn't mean smoking isn't hazardous.

I also found a large number of references that teflon was a potential bird hazard, Humphrey. But when I looked at the citations more closely, I found they were mostly lacking references.

google search:teflon toxic birds (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=teflon+toxic+birds)

Also, I think I remember something about teflon heated to high temperatures made a compound that would be extremely unlikely to biodegrade. I didn't have time to look for the facts. I can say I have burned popcorn to a black gooey crisp in my teflon pan twice, and the pan is still non-stick, it hasn't flaked, and I still use it. My finches didn't die and they were in the dining room off the kitchen. Though the smoke was higher than the cage.

I think the two main points I took away from my quick search for data was the high temperatures needed to produce toxins and the lack of absorption of Teflon from the GI tract. Mike's wonderful contribution clarified those two facts quite nicely.

zebo-the-fat
2003-Oct-06, 08:15 PM
The lifetime of birds in the kitchen really depends on how well you cook 'em! :lol:

Gmann
2003-Oct-06, 09:17 PM
Not too long ago, our dear Martha Stewart, guesting on a PBS radio show, warned people not to cook food in aluminium foil because of the dangers of Alzheimers; needless to say, a note to the radio show producers did NOT result in a retraction.


Martha is probably not too familiar with Foil Pack Cooking. We cook things in foil packs on Boy Scout camping trips. There are a great many different ways to cook in foil, both in your own kitchen, or out on the grill. I want to know when Martha is going to teach us to bake a cake with a file in it. It might come in handy someday soon. 8-[

gethen
2003-Oct-06, 10:30 PM
Do you think she was just doing a set-up so she could plead mental incompetence? You know, " I ate so much food cooked in foil as a kid that now I can't remember what I did about that stock sale."

Sammy
2003-Oct-07, 03:02 AM
Do you think she was just doing a set-up so she could plead mental incompetence? You know, " I ate so much food cooked in foil as a kid that now I can't remember what I did about that stock sale."

Not much hope, unless she wants to prove that she doesn't know much biological science. The aluminium/Alzheimer link has been pretty well refuted. It stems from some very sloppy work in the 60s which showed aluminium plaque in the brain cells of people who dies with/of Alzheimers. People ljumped to the conclusion that an association was a cause, a common fallacy. Further research showed that the plaque was asscoiated with having Alzheimers, not with causimg it.

From the webpage of the UK Alzheimers Society:


There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely.

mike alexander
2003-Oct-07, 10:28 PM
I would only add that aluminum metal dissolves in both acids and bases, that is, at pH levels several units away from neutral. Among the common foods tomatoes are acidic enough to dissolve some aluminum.

When exposed to air aluminum develops a thin oxide coating that is quite impervious unless scratched or exposed to pH extremes (astronomy here. an aluminized mirror is quite soft for a few weeks until the oxide coating forms).

Cooking neutral (pH-wise) foods in aluminum shouldn't pick up appreciable amounts of the metal.

Note that if you like your aluminum pots shiny and polish them up with the brillo pad, you are taking off any oxide coating.

Sammy
2003-Oct-07, 11:45 PM
mike alexander wrote


Note that if you like your aluminum pots shiny and polish them up with the brillo pad, you are taking off any oxide coating.

Probably the cause of Martha Stewart's problems...............

tuffel999
2003-Oct-07, 11:58 PM
Anybody got a beef with copper? Just trying to figure out what to cook with. 8-[

Musashi
2003-Oct-08, 12:24 AM
Cook over an open flame!

Pi Man
2003-Oct-08, 04:24 AM
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
"All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot. I may be off my dot but I want a proper coffee in a proper coffee pot. Iron coffee pots and tin coffee pots, they are no use to me; But if I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup-o'-tea."
:lol:

Humphrey
2003-Oct-08, 05:27 AM
How about Orange juice? How can you beat that? :-)

Sammy
2003-Oct-08, 04:24 PM
\:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/ \:D/
"All I want is a proper cup of coffee, made in a proper copper coffee pot. I may be off my dot but I want a proper coffee in a proper coffee pot. Iron coffee pots and tin coffee pots, they are no use to me; But if I can't have a proper cup of coffee in a proper copper coffee pot, I'll have a cup-o'-tea."
:lol:

Sam I am, and I'll stick with green eggs and ham! :P

beskeptical
2003-Oct-08, 07:05 PM
Cook over an open flame!That's been implicated in cancer. 8-[

beskeptical
2003-Oct-08, 07:19 PM
Beskeptical's common sense guide to dealing with risk.

1) How risky is it? Jumping off the Space Needle-high risk; Eating an apple that might have traces of Alar-relatively low risk; (nothing is risk free)

2) How important is it? Jumping off the Space Needle-not important to most of us, it may be to you; Eating-very important

3) How hard is it to avoid the risk? Smoke alarms and seat belts-very easy; Giving up bacon-very hard, but maybe not to you

4) Weigh the pros and cons of the activity, the degree of risk, and the cost or difficulty of avoiding the risk. Easy to avoid, high risk-no question; hard to avoid, relatively low risk-go for it

5) For everything in between, don't forget worry causes stress so make your decision and forget it unless new info comes along.

We always cook with honey, to sweeten up the night,
We always cook with honey, tell me how's your appetite, some sweet life...
You know the door is always open and the path is clear and bright.

mike alexander
2003-Oct-08, 07:32 PM
Copper.

Copper is a necessary cofactor in several enzymes and thus is an essential nutrient.

Generally, the body can dispose of excess copper (unless Wilson's disease is present).

Metallic copper will not dissolve in dilute nonoxidizing acids (say, vinegar). However, copper will oxidize to copper hydroxide/copper oxide on contact with air (the tarnishing you see on pots and pans), and these are soluble in dilute acids. Further, the oxide coating on copper does not form a tough film as aluminum oxide does, but tends to spall and expose fresh metal.

Therefore, to minimize copper exposure in cooking, you should keep your pans polished (unlike aluminum).

Note that most modern copper cookware has a thin nickel coating to minimize copper in food (required in Canada).

Additional note on aluminum. Aluminum is relatively poorly absorbed from the digestive tract. I have seen numbers suggesting about 1%, although this may vary. This means that just because you ingest, say, 50 mg aluminum it does not mean 50 mg will be added to your body bruden.

Aluminum is closely related to aluminium :wink: , and is an extremely difficult word to type fast.

Sammy
2003-Oct-08, 09:43 PM
mike alexander wrote


Aluminum is closely related to aluminium, and is an extremely difficult word to type fast.

Fortunately, aluminium is only found in the U.K. and the Commonwealth nations, so we don't have to type it! :lol: :lol:

tuffel999
2003-Oct-08, 10:25 PM
Cook over an open flame!That's been implicated in cancer. 8-[

But what hasn't these days? :roll:

Sammy
2003-Oct-09, 12:10 AM
Cook over an open flame!That's been implicated in cancer. 8-[

But what hasn't these days? :roll:

The bottom line here is that just about any form of cookware you'd find in a kitchen today is probably just fine to use and will NOT affect the length or quality of your life to any discernable degree. Ditto for any form of cooking, except maybe frying with lots of fat (but it sure tastes good).

Avatar28
2003-Oct-09, 05:05 PM
Cook over an open flame!That's been implicated in cancer. 8-[

But what hasn't these days? :roll:

The bottom line here is that just about any form of cookware you'd find in a kitchen today is probably just fine to use and will NOT affect the length or quality of your life to any discernable degree. Ditto for any form of cooking, except maybe frying with lots of fat (but it sure tastes good).

What about glass cookware? That's pretty inert. Surely it's safer than the others?

Kaptain K
2003-Oct-09, 06:01 PM
The problem with glass is that it is a d**n poor conductor of heat, so uneven heating is likely.

FP
2003-Oct-09, 06:07 PM
Not only is glass a poor heat conductor, it can break. I had a Corning Ware Visions (tm) saute pan which broke in half while in use. The contents of the flour cannister made a good fire extinguisher, though.

I like stainless steel pots with a large disk of aluminum on the bottom, and I use inexpensive teflon coated saute and fry pans. When the teflon starts coming off, pitch the pan and get a new one.

I use my cast iron pans for baking (cornbread, etc) -- works great!

edit - spelling

kemokid
2004-Nov-02, 11:01 PM
This is pretty clear:
"When Teflon is heated the developing fumes produce in exposed human an influenza-like syndrome (polymer fume fever) or also severe toxic effects like pulmonary edema, pneumonitis and death."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=11537570

Acta Astronaut. 1992;27:257-9. Related Articles, Links

Polymer degradation and ultrafine particles: potential inhalation hazards for astronauts.

Ferin J, Oberdorster G.

School of Medicine & Dentistry, University of Rochester, NY 14642.

When Teflon is heated the developing fumes produce in exposed human an influenza-like syndrome (polymer fume fever) or also severe toxic effects like pulmonary edema, pneumonitis and death. The decomposition products and the resulting health effects are temperature-dependent. The toxic effects seem to be related to the ultrafine particulate fraction of the fume. To test the hypothesis that exposure to ultrafine particles results in an increased interstitialization of the particles which is accompanied by an acute pathological inflammation, rats were exposed to titanium dioxide (TiO2) particles by intratracheal instillation and by inhalation. Both acute intratracheal instillation and subchronic inhalation studies on rats show that ultrafine TiO2 particles (approximately 20 nm diameter) access the pulmonary interstitium to a larger extent than fine particles (approximately 250 nm diameter) and that they elicit an inflammatory response as indicated by PMN increase in lavaged cells. The release of ultrafine particles into the air of an enclosed environment from a thermodegradation event or from other sources is a potential hazard for astronauts. Knowing the mechanisms of action is a prerequisite for technical or medical countermeasures.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=10879927

Avian Dis. 2000 Apr-Jun;44(2):449-53. Related Articles, Links

Polytetrafluoroethylene gas intoxication in broiler chickens.

Boucher M, Ehmler TJ, Bermudez AJ.

A poultry research facility that housed 2400 Peterson x Hubbard cross broilers (48 pens of 50 chicks each) experienced 4% mortality within 24 hr of chick placement. Mortality started within 4 hr of placement, and within 72 hr, cumulative mortality had reached 52%. Mild dyspnea was the only clinical sign noted in some chicks prior to death. The primary gross lesion noted in the chicks submitted was moderate to severe pulmonary congestion. The lungs of four of these chicks sank in formalin, and blood-tinged fluid was noted in the mouth and nares of two chicks. The microscopic lesions noted in the affected chicks were moderate to severe pulmonary edema and congestion. The diagnosis indicated to the submitter was that pulmonary edema caused by exposure to an unidentified noxious gas caused the death of the chicks. The poultry house environment was tested for sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and volatile organic compounds (as produced by combustion engines); all tests were negative for significant levels of these compounds. A second broiler flock was placed in the same facility and the mortality at 6 wk was 11%, which was greater than the 2.5%-4.7% mortality seen in the previous four flocks on the farm. Further investigation revealed that the only change in management practice in this facility prior to the onset of the severe mortality problem was the replacement of 48 heat lamp bulbs (one for each pen). The new heat lamp bulbs were polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) coated. PTFE gas intoxication has been reported in several exotic avian species, but this intoxication has not been previously reported in a poultry flock.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&li st_uids=1119084

Vet Rec. 1975 Feb 22;96(8):175-8. Related Articles, Links

A case of polytetrafluoroethylene poisoning in cockatiels accompanied by polymer fume fever in the owner.

Blandford TB, Seamon PJ, Hughes R, Pattison M, Wilderspin MP.

Five cocatiels (Nymphicus hollandicus) died within 30 minutes following exposure to fumes from a frying pan coated with the "non-stick" plastic polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) that had accidentally overheated. Within an hour the owner developed symptoms of "polymer fume fever" but recovered in the next 24 hours. Clinical signs and post mortem lesions of the cockatiels are described and reference is made to the unusual susceptibility of parakeets to the pyrolysis products of frying pans coated with PTFE.




For more, just go to PubMed Entrez and search on "polymer fume fever". It's also referred to colloquially as "teflon flu".

frogesque
2004-Nov-02, 11:50 PM
Very informative, welcome to the board kemokid

Glom
2004-Nov-03, 12:00 AM
This board has turned into a giant fuddite flame war! The people who are responsible should be punished. :evil:

Oh wait, I'm one of the main culprits. :oops: Okay, the people who are responsible should be allowed to go free.

tuffel999
2004-Nov-03, 12:03 AM
Boy this is an old topic. But basically what it seems to boil down to is if used outside of the design specifics there is a chance that you might possibly have a problem. This problem obviously isn't wide spread and I wonder what the physiologicaly relevant quantities are here? I would imagine quite high. Personally I am going to worry about hyponatremia first.

Bob
2004-Nov-03, 12:12 AM
Panicked by some of the above posts, I did a google search on iron and alzheimer. Now I am really in a quandary because both excess iron in the body and iron deficiency have been associated with alzheimer's. I don't think I'll throw away my treasured iron frying pans just yet. The issue with excess iron seems to caution not to overdo it with iron supplement tablets, not to worry about trace amounts from cookware.

tuffel999
2004-Nov-03, 12:35 AM
Ding ding I think we have a winner.

If and when they nail down THE cause I will be intereseted in wha tit is.....however, I doubt it will turn out to be one thing.

Sammy
2004-Nov-03, 04:42 AM
Quoted by Kemokid:


The decomposition products and the resulting health effects are temperature-dependent.

I don't doubt that, but I also don't think it is relevant to this discusion--using teflon-coated pots at home. The author of the cited article was (IMO) talking about a conflagration, not cooking. I know the author (Gunther Oberdorster) fairly well, and will contact him to see if I am interpreting his findings correctly