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Fazor
2008-Aug-08, 05:35 PM
I was looking through some classifieds, and it seems the Scientific/Reasearch industry all have these unfeasable expectations for new hires. I mean, every single one wanted applicants to have an education in the related field. Some even wanted industry experience! Jeeze!

Okay, obviously I'm being sarcastic. Just one of those days where I'm try'n to figure out what a more fulfilling career path might be, and out of curiosity checked the research listings. Too bad a 2 year Law Enforcement (Assoc.) degree doesn't count as a Masters in Science degree. :-P

Demigrog
2008-Aug-08, 05:58 PM
Heh, a few years ago my company posted a job desiring "10 years experience with C# and .NET programming". I laughed and told my boss good luck with that, since it has only been around since 2001.

tdvance
2008-Aug-08, 06:13 PM
Yeah, it wasn't in the ad, but when interviewing for one of my earlier jobs, was asked if I had any Cobol experience. Well, I got the job anyway. And no, they didn't use cobol--it seemed to be a "this candidate has an attitude problem" detector question.

jfribrg
2008-Aug-08, 06:17 PM
I think the idea is that since you get so many people applying for jobs that they are not qualified for, you ask for more than you need. In many ad, the prerequisites are really not. If you want someone with 3 years experience, ask for 10, since you will get plenty of applicants in the 3-9 range anyway. I agree that it is frustrating. I also recall ads in the mid 80's looking for 10 years of C experience. Occasionally you see a well-written ad that makes it clear what is essential and what is not. Those are the companies (or at least the department) that are probably worth working for. I also find it interesting to see ads where they are looking for 3 years experience along with a list of required skills that is so long that nobody could possibly master in 3 years.

Demigrog
2008-Aug-08, 06:31 PM
Occasionally you see a well-written ad that makes it clear what is essential and what is not.
In our case, usually the original job description is pretty good but after getting revised by HR it is a pale imitation of the original. HR also typically looks for the wrong things in candidates; they like "management types" for every job, whereas we want technical people that have no Dark Side qualities or ambitions at all. :)

Swift
2008-Aug-08, 06:41 PM
I've seen technical ads (I particularly watch Chemistry and Materials Science) that are so specific on the experiences, that you would have to have worked either for the specific company, or one of their competitors. For example, my first industrial employer, when first advertising for the position I eventually took, didn't ask for crystal growth experience, but experience growing quartz crystals. Considering that at the time there were maybe 6 companies (all competitors) and one or two research groups (all overseas) that worked with quartz, that was a very tall order. And with employment contracts with do-not-compete clauses, one can't often legally go to work for a competitor anyway.

I think sometimes companies do it for the reasons described above. I also think it sometimes is stupid, or over-optimistic HR people, writing ads for things they don't understand. Lastly, companies sometimes do it for a sneakier reason. One company I worked for wanted to hire a scientist from Russia. At the time, the only way to get him a work visa was to show that no similarly qualified candidates were available in the US. So they wrote a job description that was so specific about qualifications, that he was basically the only person on the planet that could qualify.

Whirlpool
2008-Aug-09, 12:38 AM
I think HR people doesn't bother reading the qualifications sent to them by the hiring department. Like here , we have a lot of vacant positions in our department, if an applicant will look on the qualifications posted , he may have an impression that the position is a complicated one and that's why sometimes have a low number of applicants.

And on the otherhand , there are qualifications posted that don't have much details so it have high number of applicants , where the percent of turned down applicants are high because after the 2nd interview which is usually the Technical Interview , a lot of applicants failed because they didn't meet the criteria which in the first should have been scanned and filtered by the HR on the Preliminary Interview.

Delvo
2008-Aug-09, 02:06 AM
I've seen technical ads (I particularly watch Chemistry and Materials Science) that are so specific on the experiences, that you would have to have worked either for the specific company, or one of their competitors.... companies sometimes do it for a sneakier reason. One company I worked for wanted to hire a scientist from Russia. At the time, the only way to get him a work visa was to show that no similarly qualified candidates were available in the US. So they wrote a job description that was so specific about qualifications, that he was basically the only person on the planet that could qualify.I'm not sure that really counts as "sneaky". But I might be biased because I've benefited from it myself. When I was in college, I had an internship, which led to a "temp" part-time job, which became full-time but still "temp" when I graduated. Soon, they decided that they wanted to make it permanent and "keep" me in it. But there was no way to change the position's status from temp to permanent; they had to end the former and create the latter as something new, which meant they had to accept other candidates to compete with me for the latter if any applied. But they themselves thought of this as just a promotion for me, so they defined the new position's requirements pretty narrowly based on me, in order to rig any competition so I'd win it. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me in a couple of ways, because it was recognizing my seniority and experience, which normally would count in a purely internal move such as that was really meant to be, and because I really did have a fairly unusual combination of qualifications which really were useful on that job. However, it does mean that any other applicants would have been lied to and wasted their time on something they weren't really being considered for, just so my bosses could keep up the pretense of considering them because the rules said they needed to. I've been on that end of the stick as well and found it quite annoying, even dishonest, but never called it "sneaky" even when it worked against me instead of for me.

Jim
2008-Aug-09, 02:12 AM
In many companies, the HR Dept will ask incumbents to write a position description for their jobs. HR then files them and will use them to fill the jobs that come vacant.

However, savvy incumbents will write a position description that is so tight and specific that only they are qualified for it. That works fine for their job security, but makes any later ads rather... constricting.

Whirlpool
2008-Aug-09, 03:26 AM
From my personal experience, recently I have been looking a "new" job , and the usual , went to browse some job ads and found one perfectly fit on my qualfications. I send my CV and after 2 days they called, this is an overseas job , so the Recruitment Agency called and told me that the Employer is in town to conduct interviews. So I went there for the interview which they scheduled at 9AM. When I get there , there were 5 applicants already who applied for the same position I applied for. So , the employer arrived and started the interview. Frist applicant was called and to my surprise, it's only 3 mins on my assumptions that has passed and she was finished , then followed by another , finished also at the same short of time. Then, I wonder why their interviews are so quick and one applicant said , the employer is looking for somebody who has a background in Food Retail. :doh:

The Recruitment Agency didn't specified that one of the companies that this Employer has is a Food Company.

So , in short , I too had 3 minute interview , because I don't have a background in the Food Industry.

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/106.gif

Salty
2008-Aug-09, 08:52 AM
I'm settled on my present job. However, before that I thought of researching a prospective employer on the 'net. I had my requirements, too. This saved me some postage, time and travel expenses.

Drunk Vegan
2008-Aug-09, 10:33 AM
In many companies, the HR Dept will ask incumbents to write a position description for their jobs. HR then files them and will use them to fill the jobs that come vacant.

However, savvy incumbents will write a position description that is so tight and specific that only they are qualified for it. That works fine for their job security, but makes any later ads rather... constricting.

Which is why if your boss asks you to write up a job description, you might as well find a new job and then tell your boss to shove it before they can get around to laying you off or firing you.

BigDon
2008-Aug-09, 08:05 PM
We had one ad in the want ads here that ran for years. They wanted gas chromo-what's-it experiance AND the ability to speak fluent Mongolian.

Though I think Jim just explained that one.

TrAI
2008-Aug-10, 03:55 AM
Heh, a few years ago my company posted a job desiring "10 years experience with C# and .NET programming". I laughed and told my boss good luck with that, since it has only been around since 2001.

Perhaps it was 10 work years, not real years, some of those people are really into the stuff and probably works for two to three times the time a normal person would work each year.:p:lol:

Moose
2008-Aug-10, 01:49 PM
Coming out of college, I saw one for a sysadmin job at a nearby college. They were advertising for someone with like 15 years experience, pretty much at the masters level, with a lot of fairly obscure systems, and they were offering about 2/3s what I was first offered as an entry-level C proggie. And I got low-balled.

A couple of years later, that college was still running the ad, verbatim.

mugaliens
2008-Aug-10, 09:18 PM
A friend of mine in HR says half the time the job qualification hurdles are to weed out those who think inside the box while sorting through the various, creative, and talented means by which the others figure out how to leverage what they do have in order to meet the requirements.

HR job requirement: "But this car doesn't have a top... What if it rains?"

Creative applicant selling him/herself: "You're in California, son! Land of the neverending sunshine! Who needs a top? What you need is this set of wheels so you and your babe can go cruising on up to Malibu! Sun setting over the ocean, the warm breeze streaming her blond hair behind her..."

mugaliens
2008-Aug-10, 09:20 PM
Case in point. In 2000 I was asked to write a product comparison/review, but I hadn't been published. So, I wrote an article for the local newspaper for the current Computer Guy. He got a week off, he kept the money, I got the byline, faxed it to the company that balked at the fact that I hadn't been published. Elapsed time: 3 days.

I got the assignment.

Drunk Vegan
2008-Aug-11, 03:00 AM
This is why I've tried to do a little bit of everything while I'm still young. I've had at least 40 jobs in the ten years I've been working. Little bit of everything.

As a result, I can move to a new town whenever I want and pick up a newspaper and point to a job ad at random, and chances are I have experience doing that job and can pick it up that same week.

Granted I enjoy the variety but that is the main benefit. Think I've finally found my calling though so no more quicky jobs for me once I get settled into it.

Fazor
2008-Aug-11, 02:19 PM
Well, interestingly enough, my g/f alerted me to an interesting job opening that is being listed in the classifieds. I don't meet any of the two requirements: 4-year degree (Mine's 2 years, but took 5 to complete...don't think I'll be pointing that last bit out ;)). 1 year experience prefered. None.

Ironically, the position is for a Reporter at the local paper. Why's that ironic? Well, for those who follow my often media-related rants, you'll know how I feel about popular media. But it could be a great opportunity for me; actually doing something is better than just complaining about it on an un-related message board.

I doubt I'll get the job, but I'm submitting a resumé anyway. We'll see how that goes ;)

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 02:58 PM
Getting a job as a reporter is easy.

I faxed my resume to an Agency.

It didn't have any details, work history or education on it.

It just said.


I'm Nosey.

I have no sense of shame, whatsoever.

The next day, prospective employers were ringing my phone off the hook.

Whirlpool
2008-Aug-11, 03:03 PM
:lol:

Fazor
2008-Aug-11, 03:15 PM
Getting a job as a reporter is easy.

I faxed my resume to an Agency.

It didn't have any details, work history or education on it.

It just said.



The next day, prospective employers were ringing my phone off the hook.

:) Dang, that's why I won't get hired. Under "Qualifications" I should have listed "Firm believer that facts only slow you down. Champion bull****ter who thinks that the brand of milk Brittny Spears buys is indeed newsworthy."

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 03:19 PM
:) Dang, that's why I won't get hired. Under "Qualifications" I should have listed "Firm believer that facts only slow you down. Champion bull****ter who thinks that the brand of milk Brittny Spears buys is indeed newsworthy."

Ok, so what brand is it?:think:

Fazor
2008-Aug-11, 03:32 PM
Ok, so what brand is it?:think:

Baileys, most likely.

mugaliens
2008-Aug-11, 04:07 PM
The next day, prospective employers were ringing my phone off the hook.

LOL! That I can believe. They don't want credentials. They want stories. They want news. They want to sell advertising.

My latest article came out in the local paper on Friday.

Another thing: Editors don't like to edit. They do it because editing is an obsessive-compulsive disorder. If you can hand copy to an editor and they make two changes or less and hand it back with a smile on their face, you've done your job as a reporter.

Same as with any other job and supervisor relationship, I suppose.

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 04:37 PM
LOL! That I can believe.

Actually, I lied. I never applied as a reporter.

What do you think I am?!

cjl
2008-Aug-11, 04:52 PM
An incorrigible liar?

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 04:59 PM
An incorrigible liar?

No, if I was that- I could submit applications in journalism.

samkent
2008-Aug-11, 05:15 PM
It's a perfect match for the political campaigns to come.

tdvance
2008-Aug-11, 05:23 PM
This is why I've tried to do a little bit of everything while I'm still young. I've had at least 40 jobs in the ten years I've been working. Little bit of everything.

As a result, I can move to a new town whenever I want and pick up a newspaper and point to a job ad at random, and chances are I have experience doing that job and can pick it up that same week.

Granted I enjoy the variety but that is the main benefit. Think I've finally found my calling though so no more quicky jobs for me once I get settled into it.

well, that will cease to be true if employers start putting "no job hoppers" in the ads!

Tobin Dax
2008-Aug-12, 12:03 AM
Well, interestingly enough, my g/f alerted me to an interesting job opening that is being listed in the classifieds. I don't meet any of the two requirements: 4-year degree (Mine's 2 years, but took 5 to complete...don't think I'll be pointing that last bit out ;)).
Well, then, that's obviously a 5-year degree, so you're over-qualified. If they didn't say "Bachelor's," then that's their problem. :)

Drunk Vegan
2008-Aug-12, 12:43 AM
Another thing: Editors don't like to edit. They do it because editing is an obsessive-compulsive disorder. If you can hand copy to an editor and they make two changes or less and hand it back with a smile on their face, you've done your job as a reporter.

In my experience that's not true. If you hand an Editor perfect copy with correct grammar, spelling, syntax, and facts, they will be unsettled and begin picking it apart for semantics, ordering you to change the content.

It's far safer to hand them something with the minor errors so that the message you wanted to convey remains intact.

Moose
2008-Aug-12, 01:08 AM
In my experience that's not true. If you hand an Editor perfect copy with correct grammar, spelling, syntax, and facts, they will be unsettled and begin picking it apart for semantics, ordering you to change the content.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If you hand it in perfect, they'll insist on making two changes that'll damage the piece.

That's why you hand it in with two minor errors for them to fix and feel boss-like about.

Click Ticker
2008-Aug-12, 02:31 PM
I've seen them write the qualifications to fit the candidate quite often. Particularly for internal hires that HR insists should be bid out to everybody even though management already knows who they are going to put in the spot.

They went so far as to name a person "interim manager" - since you don't have to bid that out - but you can make an "interim manager" permanent without a bidding process. Sure, it's to steps for the same result, but it saves all those annoying interviews.

Larry Jacks
2008-Aug-12, 06:09 PM
Related to this thread, I found this article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121848000146630543.html) on the Wall Street Journal website:

Help Wanted: Senior-Level Job, Junior Title, Pay
By DANA MATTIOLI

Some job hunters have been encountering a new kind of downsizing: companies that aren't eliminating positions entirely, but are combining a mid-level position with a more junior one -- then advertising it as a junior slot and offering a lower salary.

In other cases, more-senior persons are being hired, only to find that they are charged with handling both their own work and the tasks that once fell to subordinates.

It's just the latest in a series of changes companies are making to adjust to a weak economy. Earlier this year, companies initiated buyouts of senior executives with big salaries. Some firms have downgraded full-time employees to part-time status, and others have adopted a consolidated workweek in an attempt to reduce office costs, says John Challenger, CEO of Chicago-based outplacement firm Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

"They're looking for people to wear multiple hats but only pay one salary," says John Robeda, a 30-year-old product manager for an agribusiness company in Colorado Springs, Colo., who has noticed the trend since he began searching for management and marketing positions in January.

tdvance
2008-Aug-12, 06:17 PM
"In other cases, more-senior persons are being hired, only to find that they are charged with handling both their own work and the tasks that once fell to subordinates."

I don't think that's new--how long ago did all the personal secretaries go away? yeah, I know, about the time everyone had a computer on their desk.