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BigDon
2008-Aug-10, 02:50 AM
Now I don't know if its true in other places, but in San Francisco a lot of demonstrations are done by paid protesters. They don't know the issues, they just look good protesting your cause. They get paid as much as furniture movers by the way.

When one of the owners of the GAP was found to own land to be logged, nobody gave a good goddam until somebody paid people to protest. Now THAT is a gross misuse of wealth. I was moving an office next to where the demonstrations were occuring and talked to a lot of the protesters. Every freaking one of them was paid to be there, didn't know the name of the man who owned the land even. At MY wages!

Since then I have asked at various rallies.

So now when you think something is a "movement" in San Francisco think of one jerk, with a checkbook. Changes the whole dynamic of protestation. I'm ashamed that this is allowed.

novaderrik
2008-Aug-10, 03:31 AM
yet another reason why people in the rest of the country don't take that city- and to a lesser degree, that whole state- seriously.
really- what's it like living in the land of the fruits and nuts? i know a few people that have visited that state, and they all say the whole place is "different"- but not in the good way- and the people i know that have been to San Fran have all said it's the freakiest place they've ever seen.

BigDon
2008-Aug-10, 03:45 AM
yet another reason why people in the rest of the country don't take that city- and to a lesser degree, that whole state- seriously.
really- what's it like living in the land of the fruits and nuts? i know a few people that have visited that state, and they all say the whole place is "different"- but not in the good way- and the people i know that have been to San Fran have all said it's the freakiest place they've ever seen.

It makes me mad and I'll tell you why.

Almost all those loud wierdos started out as somebody else's loud wierdos. Indiana, Ohio, the flat places on our map. Most of the fruits and nuts here are from other parts of the country and the planet. Only a small percentage are homegrown.

Jens
2008-Aug-10, 07:51 AM
When you say that they are paid, do you mean that are just people hired you have no connection to the issue, or are they people who are supporters anyway, but get paid to go to rallies? I know that the second happens, not only in SF. Sometimes trade unions pay their members to participate in rallies, but in that case the members generally agree with the campaign, so the fee is sort of a payment for their trouble. Do you mean that there are people who just participate in rallies for as a job? If so, that would be kind of strange.

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-10, 08:41 AM
I've seen that place in movies and on T.V.

What's mad is being a furniture mover there.


(Yay for people with real opinions, I suppose, but most protests I see are just the noisy 0.001% trying to make the silent 99.009% agree with them.

In this country, for example, a few folk get all bothered about our "spy bases". The rest of us just wondered who would pay to fix the "balloon" [protecting one of the aerials] they "popped" one foggy morning.)

jokergirl
2008-Aug-10, 09:07 AM
I thought this thread was going to be about mandatory flower-wearing...

WaxRubiks
2008-Aug-10, 09:36 AM
I thought this thread was going to be about mandatory flower-wearing...


good one :D


I hate the mindcontrol drugs the "alternative" movement put in cannabis and LSD these days.

sarongsong
2008-Aug-10, 10:14 AM
Now I don't know if its true in other places, but in San Francisco a lot of demonstrations are done by paid protesters...Sounds like an age-old worldwide phenom and not original to Where-I-left-my-heart Land; paid protesters (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=paid+protesters&spell=1) and rioters (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=paid+rioters&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8).

weatherc
2008-Aug-10, 12:58 PM
If I recall correctly, back in the Biblical days, they even had paid mourners for funerals. Really rich people would have the most (and best) mourners at their funerals.

Not that they ever got to see it for themselves...

Neverfly
2008-Aug-10, 02:25 PM
If I recall correctly, back in the Biblical days, they even had paid mourners for funerals. Really rich people would have the most (and best) mourners at their funerals.

Not that they ever got to see it for themselves...

I remember I actually laughed out loud when I learned this one years ago.
It seemed to me so fitting, that those who place such importance on status- could only pay someone to mourn for them.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Aug-10, 03:02 PM
If I recall correctly, back in the Biblical days, they even had paid mourners for funerals. Really rich people would have the most (and best) mourners at their funerals.

Not that they ever got to see it for themselves...
Eddie Izzard covered that nicely in one of his skits, YouTube version here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0vDRPscaw4), normal warnings about mild profanity and utter inability to stay on one subject for more than half a minute in actual content as well as absence of brains in the comment section.

WaxRubiks
2008-Aug-10, 03:11 PM
it would be funny to set up your funeral, so that some actor came into the service ranting and raving and then turned over your coffin, which would be set up to contain a dummy dressed as a clown.
Or something odd in the coffin; perhaps it could be filled with doughnuts, I dunno.

Neverfly
2008-Aug-10, 03:28 PM
it would be funny to set up your funeral, so that some actor came into the service ranting and raving and then turned over your coffin, which would be set up to contain a dummy dressed as a clown.
Or something odd in the coffin; perhaps it could be filled with doughnuts, I dunno.

Just leave the doughnuts on the table.

That is where I will go to eat them.


I am still alive and require delicious nourishment.

korjik
2008-Aug-10, 06:48 PM
It makes me mad and I'll tell you why.

Almost all those loud wierdos started out as somebody else's loud wierdos. Indiana, Ohio, the flat places on our map. Most of the fruits and nuts here are from other parts of the country and the planet. Only a small percentage are homegrown.

You should come live here in Texas. Weather sucks, but the people learn to play nice or they are asked to leave, not so nicely :)

Of course, I imagine most of them end up in CA, so maybe we aint quite so much part of the solution :D

mugaliens
2008-Aug-10, 08:05 PM
Yet another thing, along with lobbying, which should be illegal...

KaiYeves
2008-Aug-10, 11:11 PM
I think the state's okay, but then, I was only in the LA airport for about an hour en route to Australia, so I really have no authority.

Gillianren
2008-Aug-11, 12:20 AM
Yet another thing, along with lobbying, which should be illegal...

The protests or the paid protestors? Making protesting, and I think lobbying as well, would require a Constitutional amendment, and I, for one, wouldn't vote for it.

Lepton
2008-Aug-11, 12:34 AM
it would be funny to set up your funeral, so that some actor came into the service ranting and raving and then turned over your coffin, which would be set up to contain a dummy dressed as a clown.
Or something odd in the coffin; perhaps it could be filled with doughnuts, I dunno.

Now this really was funny (at least to me) because as I read this the song Your Funeral Wasn't So Sad Afterall by killwhitneydead started playing :lol:

Jens
2008-Aug-11, 01:27 AM
The protests or the paid protestors? Making protesting, and I think lobbying as well, would require a Constitutional amendment, and I, for one, wouldn't vote for it.

I completely agree with that. Banning lobbying seems ludicrous. Would it mean that people can't talk to politicians between elections? Though I have a feeling that when Mugaliens says "lobbying," he isn't thinking of people who write their representatives to argue for a position, but rather paid lobbyists.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 02:52 AM
I'm crying about paid protesters Gillian, so I would think our dear Mugs would be reffering to that.

(How have you been Miss Ren? Boyfriend safe and sound yet?)

But yes, the issue isn't legality, as there is no law against it yet but an issue of fairness. (Yeah, ha ha, big laugh) This means somebody can hide from slander or use it in unfair business practices. The mind boggles at the creative applications of that last part alone.

What's to stop me from doing this:

I make jeans brand X.

Brand Y makes a better selling jeans.

I pay for a demonstration saying Brand Y does something not even really wrong, just luridly told. Paid demonstraters do sit ins in front of Brand Y, Brand X now sells better. Much less than the price of a television commercial. Those are what? 3 to 7 million? AND you get free publicity. (Guaranteed kitten-free jeans!)

The protesters don't know or care who hired them. This gives both them and the hirer insulation.

In my case cops and parents were telling kids these protesters were excercising their constitutional rights. They were doing no such thing. They were sitting their butts on shaded, cool marble earning the same money I make humping a sofabed up five flights of stairs. They didn't know the name of the man who owned the land or even where the land was. It was just a more exciting temp job than usual for them.

This is a mockery of what protest is supposed to be!

This is just one man then! One man with a checkbook! Not a voice of the people!

And it's parading around like it was. That's what makes me the angriest. Ever been to a formal evening party and somehow an obvious, brazen prostitute gets mixed in with the wives? In my mind it's a lot like that.

(Apologies to my BAUT friends who don't share the same feedback system, don't mean to hog all the electrons. Plus I removed a bunch of exclamation points, AND took out the all caps words, you guys being my friends and all. :))


As usual feel free to point out the error of my thinking. I'm still teachable.

Celestial Mechanic
2008-Aug-11, 04:37 AM
[Snip!] Almost all those loud wierdos started out as somebody else's loud wierdos. Indiana, Ohio, the flat places on our map. Most of the fruits and nuts here are from other parts of the country and the planet. Only a small percentage are homegrown.
So now the question must be asked, "Why is California such a weirdo magnet?"

I visited California once. It was nice, but I don't want to go back anytime soon. Guess I'm not a card-carrying weirdo. :)

WaxRubiks
2008-Aug-11, 04:50 AM
well, there ARE a lot of unemployed actors about.

novaderrik
2008-Aug-11, 04:56 AM
So now the question must be asked, "Why is California such a weirdo magnet?"

I visited California once. It was nice, but I don't want to go back anytime soon. Guess I'm not a card-carrying weirdo. :)

a while back, when the History Channel was doing a series about all of the states, they said that Cali started getting all "progressive" during the gold rush days when everyone that couldn't make it on the east coast moved out there looking for the easy money. the culture of the state just kind of grew from there- it became a magnet for the type of people that think the world is unfair and so they want to change it. then, of course, there was the 1960's, when every hippie and wanna be hippie headed west to create a perfect utopia where no one had to ever suffer and what not. the paid protesters could very well be an extension of all that history.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 05:47 AM
East coast was crowded back then Nova, "not cutting it" meant being crowded out or not accepting the status quo. Sanitation was awful, tuberculosis rampant and organized corruption a way of life. (Peace, I'm not hostile, just being pendantic)

novaderrik
2008-Aug-11, 06:27 AM
East coast was crowded back then Nova, "not cutting it" meant being crowded out or not accepting the status quo. Sanitation was awful, tuberculosis rampant and organized corruption a way of life. (Peace, I'm not hostile, just being pendantic)
i'm not arguing- what you said and what i said are the same thing.
people at the bottom of the social ladder on the east coast headed west for the "easy money" and to get away from the society that they didn't thrive in to start a new society where there is none of the filth and corruption that comes with living in crowded cities. they started the precurser to the laid back Cali culture 100 years before it really took off.
yes, there were a LOT of people working really hard to get rich- but there were also a lot of the same kinds of people that get paid to protest in San Fran today. people that don't have any sort of a real job, but are willing to protest against someone and get paid by that person's competitor if it means that they will put some food on the table without the stress of actually getting a real job like "The Man" says they should.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 06:33 AM
Okay, some could have read those posts, *I thought*, as a bit derogatory. Not hugely or moderatorneedstoknow derogatory

korjik
2008-Aug-11, 07:27 AM
a while back, when the History Channel was doing a series about all of the states, they said that Cali started getting all "progressive" during the gold rush days when everyone that couldn't make it on the east coast moved out there looking for the easy money. the culture of the state just kind of grew from there- it became a magnet for the type of people that think the world is unfair and so they want to change it. then, of course, there was the 1960's, when every hippie and wanna be hippie headed west to create a perfect utopia where no one had to ever suffer and what not. the paid protesters could very well be an extension of all that history.

Those who wanted to get away from the east coast and wanted to work came here to Texas and, well, stole it, but hey, we dont really talk about that in polite company. :)

HenrikOlsen
2008-Aug-11, 07:27 AM
California as seen from over here seems to be the same mix of the weird and the conservative like all of the US, but with the dynamic range knob turned to 12.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 07:57 AM
Henrik, I saw an orange robed Buddist monk running down the street yesterday.

Followed by a group of some eight high tech motorcyclists in color matching full leathers, followed in turn my some very tricked out cars of the street rod class as several custom shops of some local renown operate two blocks over and three blocks down. There are three or four shops side by side and they seem to do rocking work.

Best piece of work to me was a car that gave a big wolf whistle, squatted back and waved the right front tire at the ladies like a hand. All smooth without the least bit of jerk or leakage anywhere. The tire came up and waved side to side. Hard to discibe.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 07:59 AM
Of course being California the girls waved back to the car.

geonuc
2008-Aug-11, 11:22 AM
California as seen from over here seems to be the same mix of the weird and the conservative like all of the US, but with the dynamic range knob turned to 12.
That's a good observation, but I think California's reputation as the Land of Fruits and Nuts is a bit overblown. It is a diverse state, but 98% of the people just are just normal folks.

I've lived in Mission Viejo, San Clemente, Dana Point, San Diego, Vallejo, San Luis Obispo, San Francisco and have travelled the state extensively.

mfumbesi
2008-Aug-11, 11:41 AM
I've heard of "rent a crowd" before, but this is spectacularly creative.

korjik
2008-Aug-11, 06:59 PM
California as seen from over here seems to be the same mix of the weird and the conservative like all of the US, but with the dynamic range knob turned to 12.

Not really. California conservatives are generally still pretty liberal compared to most the the South.

EricM407
2008-Aug-11, 08:40 PM
What's to stop me from doing this:

I make jeans brand X.

Brand Y makes a better selling jeans.

I pay for a demonstration saying Brand Y does something not even really wrong, just luridly told.

Actually, if you're smart you hire a PR firm, and they do that for you in ways that can't easily be traced back to you. Happens all the time, all over the place.

Public meetings here that have anything controversial (or costly to somebody) on the agenda are always packed with rent-a-public to make sure the renter's opinion gets heard. It makes it look better on TV when the local officials they're also renting vote their way - they're just responding to public pressure, you know.

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 08:47 PM
Kor, doesn't mean the Southerners are unsufferable, it means they put up with less crap.

They were the ones who taught me the phrase, "What? You think you live on TV or something?" When some dung for brains slapped a woman around like he thought he could.

You have a problem with that?

BigDon
2008-Aug-11, 08:49 PM
Oh, hi Eric.

We haven't met yet. Welcome.

Fair reply.

HenrikOlsen
2008-Aug-11, 09:11 PM
Kor, doesn't mean the Southerners are unsufferable, it means they put up with less crap.

They were the ones who taught me the phrase, "What? You think you live on TV or something?" When some dung for brains slapped a woman around like he thought he could.

You have a problem with that?
Should I be holding my breath for the story about how he was taught that isn't polite behavior?

korjik
2008-Aug-11, 09:12 PM
Kor, doesn't mean the Southerners are unsufferable, it means they put up with less crap.

They were the ones who taught me the phrase, "What? You think you live on TV or something?" When some dung for brains slapped a woman around like he thought he could.

You have a problem with that?

Don, I have lived in Houston for more than 20 years. I may not be a native Texan, but I got here as fast as I could :)

I like that we dont put up with some of the ** you see. Paid protesters here would get laughed out of town. I have to be honest tho, we do have our nuts also. They just tend to be the opposite political affiliation of what you see. :)

My last post was more to mean that California runs from middling conservative to very liberal and that most of the south runs from middling liberal to very conservative. I just didnt say it very well :)

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-11, 09:16 PM
This thread is skirting on the political, IMHO, but I have to make one comment. The title is "What Everybody Should Know About Protests In San Francisco", yet the OP is composed exclusively, 100%, of the poster's opinion. No evidence is presented.

Actually, it's not the OP that is the worst, because it doesn't surprise me all that much -- or shock me morally -- that protestors would get some fee for protesting. This other post (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/77574-what-everybody-should-know-about-protests-san-francisco.html#post1298930) was worse. It made a bold assertion about the percentage of citizens of a certain country who care about some controversial issues, without presenting one shred of evidence.

Come on, guys, this is a science forum, where people pride themselves on their skepticism, critical thinking, and respect for the scientific method. Since when does taking one's opinion as fact meet any scientific standards?

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-11, 09:21 PM
If I recall correctly, back in the Biblical days, they even had paid mourners for funerals. Really rich people would have the most (and best) mourners at their funerals.

Not that they ever got to see it for themselves...I remember I actually laughed out loud when I learned this one years ago.
It seemed to me so fitting, that those who place such importance on status- could only pay someone to mourn for them.I doubt that the reason why they paid mourners was because they couldn't find anyone else to mourn them. More likely, they wanted to boost the size of the crowd morning them at their funerals, as a sign of their social importance (the greater the number of people mourning you, the more important or beloved folks would assume you had been).

The moral of the story being, I guess, that social status has always been largely a matter of show.

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 09:27 PM
I find the idea of Paid Protesters to be very disturbing.

and Pzkpfw's post was clearly an exaggeration of his opinion and not intended to be dissected scientifically.

publius
2008-Aug-11, 09:27 PM
Speaking of rent-a-mobs, I remember one about LBJ in the Texas years supposedly using prisoners from local jails back when he wanted a big crowd for a photo-op. :) They put hats and sports coats on them and ordered them clap and cheer. Supposedly there was one picture where they slipped up with some of the stripes visible on the trousers of some in the crowd.

-Richard

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 09:27 PM
I doubt that the reason why they paid mourners was because they couldn't find anyone else to mourn them. More likely, they wanted to boost the size of the crowd morning them at their funerals, as a sign of their social importance (the greater the number of people mourning you, the more important or beloved folks would assume you had been).

The moral of the story being, I guess, that social status has always been largely a matter of show.

That's...
Yeah...
Pretty much what I said.

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-11, 09:31 PM
Then I apologise for misunderstanding you.

Neverfly
2008-Aug-11, 09:42 PM
Then I apologise for misunderstanding you.

LOL Disinfo Agent, I tend to be as clear as Lake Shasta on a winter day- I wouldn't sweat it if I was you:p

I was just popping it in there for clarity- not out of any feeling of offense;)

closetgeek
2008-Aug-11, 09:48 PM
So now the question must be asked, "Why is California such a weirdo magnet?"

I visited California once. It was nice, but I don't want to go back anytime soon. Guess I'm not a card-carrying weirdo. :)

I don't want to generalize an entire city, all I am saying is the weirdest people I have ever seen, seem to come from Sedona.

BigDon
2008-Aug-12, 12:14 AM
Same here Korjik

That last line was supposed to read as incredulous instaed of as hostile as it looks to me now.

Apologize for any false showing of fangs.

And D.A. I was trying for social commentary not political, which I thought I left completey out with the business analogy.

Tobin Dax
2008-Aug-12, 12:17 AM
Not really. California conservatives are generally still pretty liberal compared to most the the South.
The whole west pretty liberal. I was more conservative than average growing up in Oregon. That is most definitely not the case in Kentucky. Admittedly, a little of that is me, but not enough.

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-12, 01:54 AM
This other post (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/77574-what-everybody-should-know-about-protests-san-francisco.html#post1298930) was worse. It made a bold assertion about the percentage of citizens of a certain country who care about some controversial issues, without presenting one shred of evidence.

I realise you have to wade through a lot of ATM at times, and may get a bit jaded, but you really really need to learn to recognise simple hyperbole and differentiate it from actual wild claims.

(You know, when I posted that I carefully checked my percentages to see they added to 100% to avoid someone "scientifically" nit-picking them... !)



Come on, guys, this is a science forum, where people pride themselves on their skepticism, critical thinking, and respect for the scientific method. Since when does taking one's opinion as fact meet any scientific standards?

Did you notice the "babbling" part of the title of this forum sub-section?

What "scientific standards" have to be met while babbling?

I live in the country I mentioned.

...and I was here when that base was "attacked": http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10507033&pnum=0

(Note responses: http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2008/4/30/your-thoughts-waihopai-base-invasion/?c_id=1501154 [not a scientifically valid survey])

...and I was here to see the reaction from others in the media and around me.

...and no, I don't have the figures of a scientifically conducted poll to quote, but neither do I think it's required for evey little opinion posted in this forum sub-section.

(If you do find a poll, that contradicts my opinion, feel free to correct me. I'll easily accept it - and possibly admit that I am the "odd one out".)

----

In any case, the real issue (unless you don't believe what BD said in the OP, because he didn't collect sworn statements from the participants) is that some people get hit in the head with aircraft carriers to protect things like free speech and the right to have opinions; not to protect the right to freely purchase opinions.

Jens
2008-Aug-12, 02:30 AM
I find the idea of Paid Protesters to be very disturbing.


I'm sort of wondering, as a sort of follow-up, but do other people get annoyed by celebrities appearing in advertisements for products that you know they wouldn't possibly use? Like some actor appearing in a Chevrolet commercial but you know he really drives a Porsche. I can't think of any specific examples, but it kind of bugs me, I think in the same way.

ginnie
2008-Aug-12, 02:30 AM
. This other post (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/77574-what-everybody-should-know-about-protests-san-francisco.html#post1298930) was worse. It made a bold assertion about the percentage of citizens of a certain country who care about some controversial issues, without presenting one shred of evidence.

Come on, guys, this is a science forum, where people pride themselves on their skepticism, critical thinking, and respect for the scientific method. Since when does taking one's opinion as fact meet any scientific standards?
RE: This other post (http://www.bautforum.com/off-topic-babbling/77574-what-everybody-should-know-about-protests-san-francisco.html#post1298930) Surely, this was taken by all to be an exaggeration to make a point?

ginnie
2008-Aug-12, 02:42 AM
I'm sort of wondering, as a sort of follow-up, but do other people get annoyed by celebrities appearing in advertisements for products that you know they wouldn't possibly use? Like some actor appearing in a Chevrolet commercial but you know he really drives a Porsche. I can't think of any specific examples, but it kind of bugs me, I think in the same way.
I don't like celebrities in commercials at all, period.
And somehow, it degrades the music that I've come to love and listen to when I hear them in commercials. I hate that.
You didn't hear any Beatles songs in commercials until Michael Jackson bought the rights to the Beatles catalog. I guess Paul was too cheap to buy them.
I remember an interview with John Fogerty (of Creedence Clearwater Revival) when he told the interviewer of the time he heard 'Revolution' on a TV commercial - he was jumping up and down, saying, "It just ain't right". Now, a songwriter can do anything it wants with its songs, but artists who are worth hundreds of millions of dollars should show a little respect for the fans who bought their records and enabled them to have that amount of money.
One of the best videos I've ever seen is Neil Young's 'This Note's for You' in which he satirizes musical celebrities doing commercials. MTV banned the video, but it ended up winning MTV's video of the year.

Gillianren
2008-Aug-12, 03:01 AM
You didn't hear any Beatles songs in commercials until Michael Jackson bought the rights to the Beatles catalog. I guess Paul was too cheap to buy them.

He was outbid. He even broke down and went to Yoko to ask for her help, but at the time, Michael Jackson had more money than the two of them put together.

ginnie
2008-Aug-12, 03:07 AM
He was outbid. He even broke down and went to Yoko to ask for her help, but at the time, Michael Jackson had more money than the two of them put together.

Well, the way I've read it is that Paul bid too cheap. But, I think also that he was broadsided by Mr. Jackson, who had kidded with Paul before that he would buy the catalog. Paul should have taken him more seriously.
The amount paid for the catalog :Jackson purchased half of the catalog in 1985 for $47.5 million, and it is now valued at $1 billion.

and now it appears that Mr. Jackson is trying to sell it - he needs the money!

and this in:
Paul McCartney has signed a $400 million deal with Apple for the distribution of the entire Beatlesí back catalog on iTunes. Under the deal, the money will be distributed to Ringo Starr, the families of George Harrison and John Lennon, Michael Jackson, EMI and Sony, along with McCartney getting his share as well.
http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/09/the-best-things-in-life-may-be-free-but-it-cost-400-million-to-get-the-beatles-on-itunes/

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-12, 03:26 AM
I'm sort of wondering, as a sort of follow-up, but do other people get annoyed by celebrities appearing in advertisements for products that you know they wouldn't possibly use? Like some actor appearing in a Chevrolet commercial but you know he really drives a Porsche. I can't think of any specific examples, but it kind of bugs me, I think in the same way.

That's an interesting point.

I was going to say the difference is that we "know" the celebrity is paid to do it (e.g. appear in the T.V. commercial), but then, that's getting a bit blurry with product placements becoming more common (not just on screen but in "real life").

The designer dresses the starlets wear on the red carpet, are product placement that is still reasonably obvious; but what about that watch that star is wearing? Was that "chosen" by him/her or "given" by the maker or even worn for a fee?

(As my wife says "it seems the richer you get the more you are given".

[no, we are not against success])

ToSeek
2008-Aug-12, 03:50 AM
I participated in a demonstration involving a recycling bill at the Maryland state capital in Annapolis. The pro-recycling demonstrators had a variety of hand-produced signs and appearances. The counter-demonstrators had mostly identical preprinted signs and would occasionally chant together in a lackluster unison, "We don't want your bottle bill."

Jason
2008-Aug-12, 04:36 AM
The whole west pretty liberal. I was more conservative than average growing up in Oregon. That is most definitely not the case in Kentucky. Admittedly, a little of that is me, but not enough.

The whole WEST COAST is fairly liberal. Once you leave the coast it's a different story. Utah is one of the most conservative states around and we consider ourselves to be in the West.

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-12, 11:06 AM
..and no, I don't have the figures of a scientifically conducted poll to quote, but neither do I think it's required for evey little opinion posted in this forum sub-section.Of course it's not required. It's not required in the other subsections, either.

But it would be nice if more people made at least a cursory effort to support their beliefs with evidence, when such beliefs concern what large groups of people think. I don't care if it was hyperbolic -- you don't know how people feel about those issues. You were just assuming.

EricM407
2008-Aug-12, 02:15 PM
I like that we dont put up with some of the ** you see. Paid protesters here would get laughed out of town.

Why do you think that? I'm willing to bet it's been happening without you even being aware of it.

Jens
2008-Aug-12, 02:27 PM
Why do you think that? I'm willing to bet it's been happening without you even being aware of it.

No, you don't understand. People from Texas are much smarter than the rest of us, and they can spot fakes from their facial expressions. :)

The Backroad Astronomer
2008-Aug-12, 02:30 PM
Seems to happen on other coast as well.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/23/AR2007072302011.html

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-12, 09:02 PM
-- you don't know how people feel about those issues. You were just assuming.

Yes, I guess since I live in a cave where I don't meet or talk to real people, or read the local or national newspapers, where I don't watch the national and international T.V. news and where I don't read national and international news and opinion websites, my opinions were unfounded and baseless.

sarongsong
2008-Aug-13, 12:33 AM
I don't like celebrities in commercials at all...Especially athletes---in any speaking roles, other than their sports interviews! :)

ginnie
2008-Aug-13, 01:52 AM
Especially athletes---in any speaking roles, other than their sports interviews! :)

I love hockey. I hate most hockey players giving interviews
. "And I...ahh...was fortunate to see...ah...him coming across the blue line...ah. .and ah...I was lucky to get the... ah. .puck on his stick"

Celestial Mechanic
2008-Aug-13, 05:10 AM
I love hockey. I hate most hockey players giving interviews
. "And I...ahh...was fortunate to see...ah...him coming across the blue line...ah. .and ah...I was lucky to get the... ah. .puck on his stick"
You forgot all the "you know" 's and "y'know what I'm sayin" 's. :)

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-13, 12:13 PM
Yes, I guess since I live in a cave where I don't meet or talk to real people, or read the local or national newspapers, where I don't watch the national and international T.V. news and where I don't read national and international news and opinion websites, my opinions were unfounded and baseless.What you experience personally is what in science we call "anecdote". As for the TV news, don't make me laugh. As if they're a good indication of how real people think!

korjik
2008-Aug-13, 02:56 PM
No, you don't understand. People from Texas are much smarter than the rest of us, and they can spot fakes from their facial expressions. :)

Well technically, I am assuming a modicum of competence in the local news agencies, and a willingness to run a story to get ratings. That may not be so true anymore :(

Celestial Mechanic
2008-Aug-14, 04:31 AM
No, you don't understand. People from Texas are much smarter than the rest of us, and they can spot fakes from their facial expressions. :)
Well, if that's true, why did Texans ... ? Better not complete that question!! :D

AKONI
2008-Aug-14, 04:50 AM
It sounds like easy work. How does one go about making some side cash in that business?

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-14, 10:56 AM
What you experience personally is what in science we call "anecdote". As for the TV news, don't make me laugh. As if they're a good indication of how real people think!

Anecdotal or not, my opinion is based on my experience (what I've seen, heard, read, been taught, thought about and discussed). I don't see why that's an issue, here, where I voiced my opinion in a thread in a forum section called "babbling".

I look forward to your scientific study on how T.V. news is more often than not, laughable as an indication of how people think.

Please include New Zealand in your study.

I wouldn't want your opinion, expressed above, to be merely an anecdote.

[By the way, don't think that because I get some information from T.V., that it means I've got the information intended. I am quite capable of determining for myself the relative truth of a politicians statement, the relevance of a poll or the value of the content in a panel discussion. You are very quick to dismiss T.V. (interestingly, just one of the sources I mentioned, though you'd find as much rubbish {and value} elsewhere) and also to dismiss my opinion.

You've gone from being mad that I had an opinion (gasp) to rubbishing the sources of my opinions. What's your real beef?]


(We really could have used you in Hong Kong for the Olympics.)

Doodler
2008-Aug-14, 04:01 PM
So now the question must be asked, "Why is California such a weirdo magnet?"

Because its as far away from Washington DC as we can get all the weirdos without a) swamping Hawaii under a mountain of useless people or b) simply heaving them into the ocean to drown.

sarongsong
2008-Aug-14, 05:35 PM
Ha!
...after our investigations into all that's odd, bizarre, and unexplainable in Maryland, we like to call it the Weird State...Weird Maryland proves without a doubt that Maryland is filled with a lot more interesting stuff than your history teacher ever told you about...
Barnes & Noble (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Weird-Maryland/Matt-Lake/e/9781402739064)

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-14, 05:50 PM
You've gone from being mad that I had an opinion (gasp) to rubbishing the sources of my opinions. What's your real beef?]I'm not mad that you have an opinion. I just felt your opinion was poorly supported, as I explained in my first post in this thread.

pzkpfw
2008-Aug-14, 08:57 PM
I'm not mad that you have an opinion. I just felt your opinion was poorly supported, as I explained in my first post in this thread.

Oh, please.

As I explained, you completely missed that the percentages were hyperbole. You also seem to have made the mistake of assuming that the hyperbolificTM percentages applied to the little example I threw in (which just happens to be the most recent example I could think of) and for which I did chuck in some support later on - since you got so bothered.

You also moaned about my opinion before even asking for any supporting evidence for it. You obviously made the assumption that it was based on nothing - which I think shows you knew it was essentially opinion... yet decided to complain about it as though it was represented as scientifically proven fact, anyway. I think you just needed to complain. (That's an opinion, based on my study of your posts.)

My opinions are based on the inputs I've had and the result of my brain mixing them up (finding relationships between ideas etc). As opinions they are just as valid as yours or anyone elses. (Maybe not as "correct" or "accurate" - that's a different thing.) Not every opinion in this forum section is backed up (either in the post or in later follow-ups) with documented facts. Neither should they be.

Are you going to back up your claim on the worth of T.V. news? Was that an unfounded opinon based on anecdotal evidence... simply your own personal experience?



I also think you are a bit quick to dismiss personal experience as "mere anecdote" not worthy of mention.

What was your experience of the MM experiment?
* did you [i]conduct the experiment?
* did you read the original paper?
* did you read the paper and any contradicting papers?
* were you taught about it in University?
* did you read an article about it in "New Scientist"?
* did you get told about it by someone who experienced one of the above?

...and which of these levels of experience would qualify you to have an opinion on it? Which of these qualifies you to have input on a BAUT thread about it? (And what if that thread was in "babbling" not "Q&A"?)

I look at the world around me, and the people in it. I then form opinions. (Possibly wrong, and possibly clouded by my own prejudices and preferences.) I gave an opinion, in a thread where I believe it was appropriate, and written in a way where it seems obvious to everyone else that it was not to be taken as literal truth or statistically accurate.

For you to so easily dismiss my opinion is sad for you, not me.

korjik
2008-Aug-14, 09:49 PM
Hey Disinfo, pzkpfw, if either of you want, you could hire a bunch of protesters to picket the others posts. I hear they are cheap in San Fran :D

Disinfo Agent
2008-Aug-14, 09:53 PM
As I explained, you completely missed that the percentages were hyperbole. You also seem to have made the mistake of assuming that the hyperbolificTM percentages applied to the little example I threw in (which just happens to be the most recent example I could think of) and for which I did chuck in some support later on - since you got so bothered.The precise percentages did not concern me. It was your overall qualitative assessment which I found dubious. And unsupported.


You also moaned about my opinion before even asking for any supporting evidence for it. You obviously made the assumption that it was based on nothing - which I think shows you knew it was essentially opinion... yet decided to complain about it as though it was represented as scientifically proven fact, anyway. I think you just needed to complain. (That's an opinion, based on my study of your posts.)Do you have any evidence? Polls, or anything solid like that? I seriously doubt it...


My opinions are based on the inputs I've had and the result of my brain mixing them up (finding relationships between ideas etc). As opinions they are just as valid as yours or anyone elses.But you were making claims about the opinions of others. It's O.K. to have your own opinions. We all do. But it's unwise to make assumptions about the opinions of the majority without first collecting some evidence. This was what I was trying to get at.


Not every opinion in this forum section is backed up (either in the post or in later follow-ups) with documented facts. Neither should they be.I don't deny that. This thread turned out to be composed entirely of opinion. I merely interjected that, in general, I find it a shame that people settle for opinions without looking for facts. It was a broad, generic comment. Although I used your post and another one as examples, I am not especially concerned with either, nor for that matter with the topic of this particular thread.

But I see that you took it personally, and I guess I should have predicted that in advance. Live and learn.

See you around.


Hey Disinfo, pzkpfw, if either of you want, you could hire a bunch of protesters to picket the others posts. I hear they are cheap in San Fran :DThat would probably be at least as effective as pursuing this conversation. :)

Doodler
2008-Aug-15, 02:06 PM
Ha!

:lol:

Nice one.

tbm
2008-Aug-18, 12:04 AM
it would be funny to set up your funeral, so that some actor came into the service ranting and raving and then turned over your coffin, which would be set up to contain a dummy dressed as a clown.
Or something odd in the coffin; perhaps it could be filled with doughnuts, I dunno.

Years ago Bill Cosby did a bit about having a tape recording at the funeral (in the coffin) where the deceased could say things like "Hi. It's good to see you. Don't I look like myself?"

For some extra money, you could name names. "Hi Bob. How's the wife and kids? Don't I look like myself?"

From an old Bill Cosby album.

tom